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#1 Shiren

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

OK so now we are seeing people die inside a keep, at a wall, and waiting for a res later on so someone can res them from the outside, this brings the mesmer back alive inside the walls and now able to portal people back into the structure despite being found and killed during a mesmer sweep. It seems killing the mesmer is not enough anymore, you now have to camp their corpse to prevent someone from resing them if they died close to a gate.

There is a 10 minute timer on inactivity before the game kicks you and you are unable to take actions when dead so camping it for 10 minutes should be enough, but now it seems there is a way to circumvent this and mesmers can be dead for periods of longer than 10 minutes and circumvent the auto-kick.

Obviously it's unfair and expecting people to sit on a corpse for 10 minutes is too long, let alone indefinitely (until the auto-kick circumvention exploit is fixed). Knowing how everything else ArenaNet does seems to be cripplingly bugged I'm hesitnant to suggest it, but line of sight seems like a decent requirement for a resurection (until we see people unable to do it because of the same obstruction bugs that affect ranger projectiles). I don't think this is healthy for WvW.

#2 Fannwong

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:24 AM

Hello Shiren,

It's highly likely the mesmer is not revived through the wall.

Here's how it works:

1. Mesmer and thief stay behind. More if possible.

2. Mesmer dies. Thief (specially built for perma stealth with stealth heal, etc) hits wall and NPC for C&D plus other stuff to stay perma stealthed. The thief is bunker/heal traited, he cannot be taken down by arrow carts, dagger storm, root, aoe clusterbomb,  etc.

3. When people leave, the thief stealth Haste rezzes the mesmer. Mesmer swaps armor from time to time to prevent kick.

FW

Edited by Fannwong, 29 December 2012 - 08:36 AM.


#3 coronbale

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:01 AM

Actually we did have a situation today where this happened during our match.  We immediatly called off the assault, as rezing a mesmer isnt an exploit, but rezing through a wall is.

I would recommend staying away from this, as you will quickly gain a rep for it.

#4 1up

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:00 AM

Quote

Actually we did have a situation today where this happened during our match.  We immediatly called off the assault, as rezing a mesmer isnt an exploit, but rezing through a wall is.

I would recommend staying away from this, as you will quickly gain a rep for it.

You should try reading more and get back to us...

#5 Minu

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:11 AM

View Post1up, on 29 December 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

You should try reading more and get back to us...

If he says he saw this happen, who are you to say otherwise?

Truth hurts sometimes, and it must be terrible when people get wind of exploits we might be using?

#6 1up

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostMinu, on 29 December 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

If he says he saw this happen, who are you to say otherwise?

Truth hurts sometimes, and it must be terrible when people get wind of exploits we might be using?

Make that Super Sized... Do I really need to point it out for you guys?

#7 Minu

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:13 AM

View Post1up, on 29 December 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Make that Super Sized... Do I really need to point it out for you guys?

I would prefer not to get involved in a language debate with you, someone of your age really should be making more sense with your replies.  I actually expected you to be a teenager, surprised you are in your 30's.  I am afraid, here in the UK, I for one do not understand this kind of chat garbage.

Edited by Minu, 29 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.


#8 BRUTAL

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 29 December 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Actually we did have a situation today where this happened during our match.  We immediatly called off the assault, as rezing a mesmer isnt an exploit, but rezing through a wall is.

I would recommend staying away from this, as you will quickly gain a rep for it.


Take care of reputation of your guild, on JQ BL yesterday a dead Tsym mesmer was ressurected through duct wall and ported your zerg inside, after we wipe them, we noticed another dead mesmer on same spot and a Tsym member starting to ress.

Edited by unraveled, 31 December 2012 - 06:35 AM.
Removed image.


#9 Gerroh

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostShiren, on 29 December 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

There is a 10 minute timer on inactivity before the game kicks you and you are unable to take actions when dead so camping it for 10 minutes should be enough, but now it seems there is a way to circumvent this and mesmers can be dead for periods of longer than 10 minutes and circumvent the auto-kick.

In WvW, there shouldn't even be the possibility of waiting that long. If you ask me, you should be forced to respawn if you are dead for over a minute without anyone trying to res you. I don't get why people can sit there and watch the enemy or do the trick(s) mentioned in this thread.

#10 1up

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:05 PM

View PostMinu, on 29 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I would prefer not to get involved in a language debate with you, someone of your age really should be making more sense with your replies.  I actually expected you to be a teenager, surprised you are in your 30's.  I am afraid, here in the UK, I for one do not understand this kind of chat garbage.

Obviously you can't read a forum thread on how people are doing it either...

Quote

Hello Shiren,

It's highly likely the mesmer is not revived through the wall.

Here's how it works:

1. Mesmer and thief stay behind. More if possible.

2. Mesmer dies. Thief (specially built for perma stealth with stealth heal, etc) hits wall and NPC for C&D plus other stuff to stay perma stealthed. The thief is bunker/heal traited, he cannot be taken down by arrow carts, dagger storm, root, aoe clusterbomb,  etc.

3. When people leave, the thief stealth Haste rezzes the mesmer. Mesmer swaps armor from time to time to prevent kick.

A simple Google search would confirm this, anything else is just garbage or tinfoil hat theories. Is there anything else you need help with today?

#11 Minu

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

View Post1up, on 29 December 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Obviously you can't read a forum thread on how people are doing it either...



A simple Google search would confirm this, anything else is just garbage or tinfoil hat theories. Is there anything else you need help with today?

Your searing wit really does speak wonders.  You may or may not have noticed, that this is the thread we are dealing with?  I am not interested in googling anything, I am interested in you addressing the issue you decided to poke fun at the OP over, and so far have failed to come up with anything credible.

#12 Shatteredz

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

View Post1up, on 29 December 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Thank You, I am pretty clever!



I would be shocked if you noticed anything lately...



Why you fail at life!



Actually if you read the quoted post it wasn't from the OP. GJ on failing again.



I can agree with you there... Your posts haven't contributed anything to the thread so far besides a failed attempt to troll.

Would you like to keep getting owned, or are you done for the day? Maybe something like quitting while you're ahead would be to your advantage.

Please make sure to take the customer service survey. I take pride in making sure my customers are happy and well taken care of.

Thank You, Come Again!

If you would actually start reading the thread, then you would know the issue is ressing trough walls(or doors) and not your "supa dupa perma tank stealth thief ress".

#13 coronbale

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostBRUTAL, on 29 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Take care of reputation of your guild, on JQ BL yesterday a dead Tsym mesmer was ressurected through duct wall and ported your zerg inside, after we wipe them, we noticed another dead mesmer on same spot and a Tsym member starting to ress.


As I said, we had a situation like that come up yesterday, and I ruled it to be an exploit, and subject to immediate kick and ban on first offense.  If you see that happening, do me a favor and report them to ANET.  I will do whatever i can to get them out of my guild on my end, but its better to get them banned so no other guilds need to deal with it once they leave mine.

I would also like to state for the record, that this is MY guilds ruling only.  I would never tell you how to run your guilds, as I expect noone to tell me how to run mine.  The line is grey, and is subject to interpretation by the leaders here, I just choose to put my line closer to the side of caution rather than play jumprope with it.

Edited by unraveled, 31 December 2012 - 06:35 AM.
Removed image.


#14 1up

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 07:15 PM

Quote

If you would actually start reading the thread, then you would know the issue is ressing trough walls(or doors) and not your "supa dupa perma tank stealth thief ress".

I've yet to see any proof of Mesmers doing this, and is just being confused with a Thief rezzing the Mesmer as previously stated. I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to understand the issue?

#15 Cake is Cake

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Post1up, on 29 December 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

I've yet to see any proof of Mesmers doing this, and is just being confused with a Thief rezzing the Mesmer as previously stated. I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to understand the issue?
Because mesmers just die by gates even though thats a terrible spot to run to, and guardian GS #5 doesn't pick up anything while a zerg is just standing right outside not doing anything

#16 Shiren

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:28 AM

View PostBRUTAL, on 29 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Take care of reputation of your guild, on JQ BL yesterday a dead Tsym mesmer was ressurected through duct wall and ported your zerg inside, after we wipe them, we noticed another dead mesmer on same spot and a Tsym member starting to ress.



So you did see someone resing through a wall? Not a thief on the inside, but someone actually able to res through the wall?

Edited by unraveled, 31 December 2012 - 06:35 AM.
Removed image.


#17 Calumet

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

This happened to me in Bay Keep a few weeks past, won't name the server or Guild involved because I don't want to cause any fights but this little Asura Mesmer went and sat by the outer gate so we killed him there. After this you could see his health visibly rising as well as a Thieves Shadow Refuge outline passing through the outside of the gate where he was stealth res'ing him Mesmer through the gate, got him to roughly 90% health and then didn't come back. We could only assume the Mesmer and Thief were communicating via a Teamspeak or Whisper conversation and the Thief was waiting for the Mesmer to give the all clear for a Resurrection that we were no longer watching him.

Unfortunately for their plan though I'm British and if you have ever seen the British queuing for anything you know we have the patience of Statues, he quit after about 15 minutes of me sitting on him and used his WP or got kicked one of the two.

#18 FoxBat

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:40 AM

View PostCalumet, on 30 December 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

sat by the outer gate

Sounds like they key here in most cases. There's a big difference in thickness between walls and gates.

Edited by FoxBat, 01 January 2013 - 12:44 AM.


#19 Xai

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

It's always possible that both methods are being employed. Stealth ressing does not negate the possibility of through-the-door ressing, and if both have been seen I'm prepared to believe both are being done.

Edited by Xai, 02 January 2013 - 11:13 PM.


#20 Straegen

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:19 PM

Die in a keep or castle and the system should release the player immediately. I also think on death the players screen should go dark in WvW. Kinda BS to stay around dead watching what is going on.

Haven't seen the res through the wall trick but I do know of a few places around walls where skills do not observe the Z axis allowing ground targeted abilities hit on top or over a wall so I suppose it is possible.

There is also a hack that "hides" the walls allowing for better siege control which could potentially allow targeting behind a wall.

Edited by Straegen, 02 January 2013 - 11:21 PM.


#21 Cover Girl

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostFannwong, on 29 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Hello Shiren,

It's highly likely the mesmer is not revived through the wall.

Here's how it works:

1. Mesmer and thief stay behind. More if possible.

2. Mesmer dies. Thief (specially built for perma stealth with stealth heal, etc) hits wall and NPC for C&D plus other stuff to stay perma stealthed. The thief is bunker/heal traited, he cannot be taken down by arrow carts, dagger storm, root, aoe clusterbomb,  etc.

3. When people leave, the thief stealth Haste rezzes the mesmer. Mesmer swaps armor from time to time to prevent kick.

FW

as usual Fannwong is 4 months behind on any useful knowledge.  you absolutely without question CAN rez thru doors and gates/grates due to the thickness of them. Same rule applies to damage thru doors.  Don't believe me?  stand on one side of a keep door. melee attack.. enemies on other side take damage. same with catapults. shoot rock at door. enemy on other side goes flying.  rezzing/healing follows same rules of pbaoe/aoe.

We have discussed this from leadership perspective on SBI officers forums.  I am of the personal persuasion that it's a valid and legal tactic unless voted otherwise by the board of my peers.  I vote to allow it as laid out above.  If you say this is an illegal tactic, then you are going to need to ban siege being shot through the door as well as meleeing through doors to kill enemies/rams.

Edited by Cover Girl, 10 January 2013 - 12:46 PM.


#22 GoGoGhosty

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

You are just on a role rezzing topics today :) Anyways, the reason this tactic is an exploit is because it cannot be reasonably countered. With door catas, you can keep the rams further back, use stability, or just use other siege. With permanent stealth thieves rezing mesmers, you can track down the thief (though it is a game design flaw that allows thieves to permanent stealth, this should be addressed by Anet, but is technically not an exploit). When it comes to things like like wall rezzing or invulnerable siege spots, tactics that are impossible to counter, the community has decided to rule these as exploitive and overall bad for wvw . Not saying they deserve a ban from the game, as this is on Anet to fix, but guilds should take a zero tolerance on these tactics if they wish to be respected.

#23 Cover Girl

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostGoGoGhosty, on 10 January 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

You are just on a role rezzing topics today :) Anyways, the reason this tactic is an exploit is because it cannot be reasonably countered. With door catas, you can keep the rams further back, use stability, or just use other siege. With permanent stealth thieves rezing mesmers, you can track down the thief (though it is a game design flaw that allows thieves to permanent stealth, this should be addressed by Anet, but is technically not an exploit). When it comes to things like like wall rezzing or invulnerable siege spots, tactics that are impossible to counter, the community has decided to rule these as exploitive and overall bad for wvw . Not saying they deserve a ban from the game, as this is on Anet to fix, but guilds should take a zero tolerance on these tactics if they wish to be respected.

you CAN counter it.  My rule of thumb, and one that I try to enforce strictly is "if you see a body, camp that mfer till he releases".  that way NO thief can rez it, and no chance its a problem.  If a body is laying beside a door, and youre standing on his face, he more than likely wont tell his buddy to come rez him.   In the event he does, you send your buddy over the wall and kill him too.  Wash Repeat till they go away.  If you leave a mes body inside your tower/keep, and he gets rezzed, well.  That's your bad for being dumb and leaving him.   It's a valid strategy.

#24 RivenVII

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

Well, Cover Girl, as awesome as you are with a damn fine avatar, I might add, I think it's cheap. It's the same way that on some thin gates, you can lay down a portal on one side of it and use the portal if you are on the other side of the gate.

It's certainly a gray area, but afaik, most organized forces have opted to err on the side of caution and avoid it, although the body camping is necessary and has been frequently done so as to stop those shady individuals who do try and do this. The body should be camped anyway because there could always be a thief hiding. It just makes the situation very suspicious when the person dies on top of a door. If they are in the middle of a courtyard and dead, you have less to worry about if you did a thorough sweep.

#25 Tarkus

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

Reviving mesmers through gates is technically not considered an exploit, as are many other cheap tactics such as perma-stealth thieves in keeps. The thing is that this is just another tactic that you have to learn a hard-counter for and recognize it when it is being done.

The only fault of the players who lose the keep is complacency, nothing more. The door trick is shoddy as all hell, and I don't think a lot of WvW guilds try it out of principle but considering that permastealthing requires a fair amount of effort and is just a clever use of game mechanics it is legit. If you lose a keep to thieves its kinda you're own fault. Oh yeah and welcome to Guru Covergirl.

Edited by Tarkus, 10 January 2013 - 11:01 PM.


#26 Millimidget

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostGerroh, on 29 December 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

In WvW, there shouldn't even be the possibility of waiting that long. If you ask me, you should be forced to respawn if you are dead for over a minute without anyone trying to res you.
30s.

Consider it a trade-off for the downed-state mechanic.

#27 Cirus

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:54 PM

It's definitely an exploit, you cannot kill those who are already dead, there is supposed to be a 5 minute afk timer for a dead body but some people bypass it.

You are not supposed to be able to res a dead person from the outside, you can try to justify it however you like, but it's an exploit.

Edited by Cirus, 11 January 2013 - 12:50 AM.


#28 GoGoGhosty

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

View PostCover Girl, on 10 January 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

you CAN counter it.  My rule of thumb, and one that I try to enforce strictly is "if you see a body, camp that mfer till he releases".  that way NO thief can rez it, and no chance its a problem.  If a body is laying beside a door, and youre standing on his face, he more than likely wont tell his buddy to come rez him.   In the event he does, you send your buddy over the wall and kill him too.  Wash Repeat till they go away.  If you leave a mes body inside your tower/keep, and he gets rezzed, well.  That's your bad for being dumb and leaving him.   It's a valid strategy.

Problem  with wall/gate rezzing is the mesmer can stay there indefinitely by switching out armor. Having to camp a body for what could be hours is not an acceptable counter. Hell, even if you camp the body, his team can still rez him in front of you and the mesmer can just jump the wall while you try to kill him and port his team in. If the body had a timer and was forced to release after 5 or so minutes, it would be fine; this is not. I'm actually of the opinion that dead should be dead and nobody should be able to be rezzed (as long as we keep downed state), but that's another story.

#29 Cover Girl

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostGoGoGhosty, on 11 January 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Problem  with wall/gate rezzing is the mesmer can stay there indefinitely by switching out armor. Having to camp a body for what could be hours is not an acceptable counter. Hell, even if you camp the body, his team can still rez him in front of you and the mesmer can just jump the wall while you try to kill him and port his team in. If the body had a timer and was forced to release after 5 or so minutes, it would be fine; this is not. I'm actually of the opinion that dead should be dead and nobody should be able to be rezzed (as long as we keep downed state), but that's another story.

this exact scenario happened inside the SBI garrison when 3 DiE players from SOS were killed in a failed garrison attempt. there were 2+ thiefs inside speed rezzing them while we ran around trying to find them.  They indeed kept several of us busy for an hour or more but when they rezzed the mes, we had immobilize stacks waiting on them, and killed them quickly.  It sucked to be out of commission, but they weren't able to rush port anyone inside.  I understand all the counter arguements, and agree with them.  But as it stands, Anet has a hands off approach to issues like this, so if it's allowed, use it.  Nothing is stopping your side from doing the same tactic, as it's very easy to do.

#30 GoGoGhosty

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:25 AM

View PostCover Girl, on 11 January 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

this exact scenario happened inside the SBI garrison when 3 DiE players from SOS were killed in a failed garrison attempt. there were 2+ thiefs inside speed rezzing them while we ran around trying to find them.  They indeed kept several of us busy for an hour or more but when they rezzed the mes, we had immobilize stacks waiting on them, and killed them quickly.  It sucked to be out of commission, but they weren't able to rush port anyone inside.  I understand all the counter arguements, and agree with them.  But as it stands, Anet has a hands off approach to issues like this, so if it's allowed, use it.  Nothing is stopping your side from doing the same tactic, as it's very easy to do.

I am of the opinion that the community should get to decide which "exploits" benefit the game and which do not. For example, in super smash bros melee, there are several "exploits" (wavedashing is a prime example) that drastically speed up the game, making it more enjoyable and more competitive. Likewise, in Halo 2 there were button combos that allowed for faster shooting, faster meleeing etc that were also embraced, because they improved the game. Door rezzing does not improve wvw in any sense of the word. It requires multiple people to sit watching a dead body with their full attention for potentially hours, while all it takes is someone to spend 30 seconds to go rez them. We as a community need to out these exploits or they will destroy our game that we put so many hours into. This is mainly up to the guilds; if every major guild refuses to use these merely on principle, it will quickly cease to be an issue.




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