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Fractals 20+ Build!


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#1 Izokka

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:19 AM

Hi guys, im interested in building a Thief for fractals 20+ until now i was pretty ok, even at htis lv I dont die much im a full crit build btw, but with 16k HP, BUT sometimes like in the shaman fractal the agony just deals me about 150 or something, BUT the burning KILLS me so much. other than that im just ok, what do you guys think?

#2 Rachmani

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

Just dodge the attack that causes agony. It's some kind of bow shot, pretty hard to spot but visible if you pay attention.
Make sure you stand behind the shaman so that you can see him turn (easier to spot than his bow shot).
You'll probably still get hit sometimes, but some condition removal should keep you alive.
In terms of condition removal there are 2 reliable options besides the obvious hide in shadows (although I tend to use withdraw, depending on traits) and Signet of Agility.
First option is S/x for infiltrators strike, second is Shadows Embrace in the shadow arts line.

P.S. I've no idea which "full crit build" you play, but 15 points in the acrobatics line will greatly help your survivability.

#3 Izokka

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:09 PM

i have 15 on DA, 30 in the crit line, 15 in acro, 10 in the last one

#4 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

I prefer this build for +20 FotM, swapping out traits and secondary sets as needed. Practiced Tolerance occasionally becomes Pistol Mastery (which is +10% damage increase, not 5) on single target fights where distance is necessary.

I find myself swapping out utilities far more often now, including Withdraw, Shadow Refuge, Scorpion Wire, Dagger Storm (reflects Valkerie projectiles), Smoke Screen (very useful), Caltrops, and Roll for Iniative. +20 is less about damage, and far more about surviving until the boss explodes.

Most, but not all agony can be dodged, so I'd suggest farming pre-20 FotM until you have both rings and a backpiece with resist.

For gear I use a defensive quiver, 4 pieces of Soldier, 2 Valk, gemmed with ruby orbs, though Divinity Runes are also an excellent choice. Having taken no points into DA, I make up the power loss through gear.  Fully buffed with a sharpening stone, food, and a banner warrior, I've noticed only a slight decrease in damage output, with a dramatic increase in survivability.  My current setup (though I forgot to toss on my ascended rings):

Posted Image

Edited by Vadune Lafrey, 06 January 2013 - 02:51 AM.


#5 Izokka

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

ive 30 AR btw, the problem isnt on agony it doesnt do much to me, i think the problem is the Fu... burn the arrows deal, i mostly dodve every of them, but sometimes i get x2 arrows while killing the spawns, + the base in defence i have in dungeons is from 15 in DA I LOVE WEAKNESS on enemies :)

btw i use valquirie jewels with beril orbs, why you use zerker ones?

AND... o.o can jewels be placed on rune slots o.o?

#6 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:15 AM

View PostIzokka, on 30 December 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

ive 30 AR btw, the problem isnt on agony it doesnt do much to me, i think the problem is the Fu... burn the arrows deal, i mostly dodve every of them, but sometimes i get x2 arrows while killing the spawns

I assume you mean the lava boss that spawn the evil little grubs.  My team uses reflects to counter these.  Smoke Screen, Wall of Reflection, Sanctuary, Shield of the Avenger, Feedback, etc. will protect you if your team moves to one side.

And I use zerker orbs because they round out the rest of my set nicely.  I get the stats I want.  I could swap pieces of gear from Soldier or Valk into different combinations, or use different jewels (or runes), and get roughly the same stats. It's pick and choose and up to the player.

#7 The Shadow

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:30 AM

I'm only doing fractals lvl 10 for the daily, cba to do any more cause it's boring as hell and I have better ways to make money. So I can't really say what you're gunna wanna do, or what it is you experience at the 20 and upwards point.

What I will say however is (and I hate to re-kindle old debates) but yeah, if you want survival/ utility.. S/P, most deffo, without any shadow of doubt, is probably the only weapon set you really don't want to be using. Like furreal. Just never use it, regardless of the encounter. The argument that S/P as a set is actually viable for anything other than farming Cursed Shore and leveling up is an absolute joke.

As for the condition removal issue, just save Shadow Step for when you really need it as a cleanse.

#8 Izokka

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:07 AM

I'm lv28 fractals now and ive decided to leave deadly arts 0 and add to shadow arts and acrobatics, now im a Fking dodging machine XD and ive done whole fractals wihtout diying, and my damage hasnt decreased that much (dont think 150 power woth the HIGH amount of survivality i have now, and even when i had 25 in Deadly Arts (250 power + a +10% wooping damage to foes with a condition, i really prefer the survivality i have now, ive saved the boss in so many times before that some peeps just says WTF! XD mostly on the collosus (last boss), Blossom, and the dredge fractals XD.

+Shadow, im working on getting the sbow you have, the Aether, cause i love it, but now i remembered the dragons deep one how does it really look? GODLY as Aether?

http://www.gw2db.com...he-dragons-deep
http://www.gw2db.com...ether-of-purity

#9 The Shadow

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostIzokka, on 01 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

+Shadow, im working on getting the sbow you have, the Aether, cause i love it, but now i remembered the dragons deep one how does it really look? GODLY as Aether?

http://www.gw2db.com...he-dragons-deep
http://www.gw2db.com...ether-of-purity

[&AgFieQAA]

Copy and paste that into GW2 to preview Aether.

There simply isn't a single bow that compares to the sheer epic that is Aether, IMO. The only issue I have with it is how it sits on your back, it sits slightly too high, I think this will be fixed in the future, but since it's only a minor cosmetic grievance, it may take a while. The fact it's a longbow skin is truly epic though imo. Arah SB has nothing on it, nor does the stupid Legendary SB (or BS) lmao.

Edited by The Shadow, 01 January 2013 - 06:46 AM.


#10 Izokka

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

omg, i thout it was fixed allreaddy, and the issue that it looked as a lonngow too, i thout they had reduced its size allreaddy too.

and show us more pics of you and your Aether XD

#11 The Shadow

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostIzokka, on 01 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

omg, i thout it was fixed allreaddy, and the issue that it looked as a lonngow too, i thout they had reduced its size allreaddy too.

and show us more pics of you and your Aether XD

Posted Image

Posted Image

Freshly taken.

#12 Izokka

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:32 AM

so the string doesnt animate -.-

#13 The Shadow

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostIzokka, on 02 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

so the string doesnt animate -.-

It does. Try taking a screen-shot of it though roflol :D

#14 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:31 PM

Normally I'd be loathe to argue with Shadow, because I have a tremendous respect for the man, followed his guide intensely, and know he is easily one of the most knowledgeable gamers on thief anything (I'm also quite jealous of Aether--in my opinion--by far the best looking bow in the game).

That being said, my team does FotM because we actually find them fun (to each his own), and enjoy the increased challenge as they progress in difficulty, though I will agree that until level 10 I was fairly bored. I've used every weapon set, enjoying most of them, and agree with many points Shadow has stated both now and in the past about S/P and its inherrent flaws. But I can also say, I actually enjoy using S/P for sheer variety's sake. Log enough hours and eventually you've got to get bored with "x" set. I also find S/P very useful in high level fractals (please don't pelt me with rocks here).

Now, yes, my build is a combination damage with a bit of extra survivability tossed in. But what I loathe to hear, especially to inexperienced or those thinking of playing thief, is that "x should never be used and is just terrible." If you were min-maxing? Different story entirely.  But how many of us min/max?  It has always been in the minority, even in WoW, where it was a much larger issue to conquering new content quickly. (Ironically, I was a min/maxer in WoW).

Now, 5+1 and you can blind tank a group to take the pressure off your party.  2 really gets a bad rap, but is quite useful for heavy CD fights where you don't have room on your bar for Shadowstep and the sigil isn't enough.  3, even after the nurf, is fun.  Yes, it locks you in place, so, like everything else thiefy, use it wisely. And I can't overstate the usefulness of 4 as a stun in higher level fractal play.

And please keep in mind, for my spec and weapon choice, I'm ONLY speaking of 20+ fractals, which are a mile away from level 10 fractals. Before that I ran a more cookie cutter spec and used different weapon sets/gear.

I can honestly say that my setup has consistently done what I want in 20+ fractals: kept me alive, delt out impressive damage, and is useful to my team in 20+ fractals (blind tanking and Dagger Storm's reflect/Smoke Screen has saved my team meany times, for example).  And most of all: I find it fun--and really, that's all that matters. Isn't it?

Now this is where I politely apologize to Shadow for rekindling the S/P debate, if even briefly, and ask him to hand over Aether, because my jealously has finally peaked. :)

Edited by Vadune Lafrey, 05 January 2013 - 08:42 PM.


#15 The Shadow

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostVadune Lafrey, on 05 January 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

snip

From what I understand, you are running FoTM 20+ with the same team (could be wrong here) and a fairly organized one at that. If that is the case then that in itself is a luxury that not everyone has access to, it allows for you to sacrifice something, compensate for another and let a team-mate fill the blanks, in theory. In a situation like that it is perfectly acceptable to use whatever set you want to so long as you are fulfilling the role you've either been assigned or have assigned yourself.

I agree with you 100% on the benefits of using Pistol as an off-hand. A few months ago I thought it was useless, since then I have dramatically changed my view of it and as such, I almost always use D/P providing the majority of enemies can be blinded or dazed.

The issues with S/P is 1 and 3. I actually believe that Sword 2 is the most useful Sword skill. The issue with 1 is, despite it being a cleave, it's so slow and clunky that it doesn't really matter, especially since the majority of encounters in fractals and indeed dungeons (barr a few) are single-target boss fights as opposed to AoE encounters making it pretty redundant. Then there is Pistol Whip which is neither sustainable, nor sustainable when paired with 5... nor does it to do more DPS on single-targets than D/D or D/P.

tl;dr argument is - Single Target > Multiple Target = D/D or D/P > S/D or S/P however if you need AoE then SB > S/D or S/P

If you find it fun to use and find it fits a particular niche in the context of your team then that's awesome. If you find the cleave and PW particular useful in general PvE then that's awesome too. I simply can't find any reasons to use it in supposedly difficult content (20+ fractals, I say supposedly because I haven't actually experienced it) that depend on survival, when we have other weapons that are better geared towards both DPS and survival simultaneously.

I'll re-iterate a point here cause it is an important one and you mentioned it as well. Having fun is more important than min-maxing, never should it be the other way around. However the vast majority of my posts are based on what I find to be more effective and I try to maintain relative objectivity. What I find to be most effective also, by chance, happens to be the most fun TO ME, so sometimes I may be slightly biased, but I try hard not to be. That being said I think you as well as other players will find that you'll be at your best when you are having the most fun... even if it's with a set that isn't as good on paper.

Also, my bow get your own D; took me many hours of farming Sparks and other stuffs.

Edited by The Shadow, 05 January 2013 - 09:37 PM.


#16 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:37 AM

You are correct in assuming that I run with the same team (who are each highly competetant at their class).  We run two thieves, two mesmers, and a guardian: clearly we have no lack of support, and walls (all of them), which I've read you rather dislike in the past, are nearly mandatory in upper FotM.  Timing everyone's version of wall/reflection one after another, can make you nearly untouchable on an otherwise merciless fight, but I digress.

I choose S/P primarly for the blind tanking. The higher you go, the more difficult the foe, obviously, and I am speakly strictly of non-bosses. Particularily in some of the Dredge encounters, AoE 5+1 Blind Tanking is something you should reconsider (should you ever decide to venture into higher fractals). Your guide taught me to dearly love the SB, and also like you, I have two bows--one offensive, one defensive.  But in the more difficult situations, Cluster Bomb + Malice + Haste will still get you roflstomped in seconds (even with Life-Steal).  Hence the usefulness of blind tanking, even if it's to cover your party's retreat.  Otherwise, you're right, 1 is rather lack-luster.

Otherwise, yes, thieves are made for single target DPS, and I agree with you on all points.  As I said, I run a drastically different setup for regular dungeons, which become almost laughable after having your ego eaten by a super high level fractal. I'd go D/D or D/P with SB secondary for any other dungeon in the game.  But this was a post requesting 20+ fractal advice, not regular dungeon or WvW (the latter of which I admit I remain vastly ignorant of).

On the matter of pistol whip, I actually find, when iniatiave is appropiately conserved and specc'd for, that I can sustain it so long as I need to (two to three hits), and can rack up a total of a 15k hit on average, each time; please note that my given role in the group (which is half support: walls, pulls, revives, blind tanking, stuns) and otherwise damage, there is relatively little time when I'll be just wailing on the boss, spamming 3 over and over, which is quite frankly, boring. You're right--that's not sustainable.  What I am is a controller of the playing field, a role I probably lean towards after playing a tank for many years in WoW. And yes, 15k is nothing compaired to what a properly buffed and timed BS can do, but it's nothing to sneeze at when you're placing yourself as partial support and not full 'zerker.

What I encourage new players (as well as old) to do, is play around, find what works and what doesn't, read what the pros have to say, and then discover for yourself what works for you. And thank god, the LFG website tends to pull mostly solid players post level 20 fractals, something you have yet to experience. Not quite the same as a set group who can execute tactics with barely a word, but a hellova improvement over some of the horrors I have encountered in regular PuGs.

Edited by Vadune Lafrey, 06 January 2013 - 02:41 AM.


#17 The Shadow

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:38 AM

View PostVadune Lafrey, on 06 January 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

snip

My build has changed drastically since August, I haven't updated it on the OP because I want people to use it as a template to think for themselves as opposed to just copy/ pasting (which is what most people do anyway), you are absolutely right about SoM, I use it purely for AoE encounters (I am one of those people who is constantly changing traits + utility in-between fights) but I digress.


Are the dredge not immune to blind in FoTM? I can't actually remember.

Can you not blind-tank non-boss mobs with D/P? Wouldn't this actually make more sense given that the mobs in FoTM (with a few exceptions) are not naturally grouped up? Of course this point is made null and void if the Guardian is using GS... but is it not easier to focus down individual targets to reduce the incoming damage?

I see the value behind the walls when considering the amount of ranged mobs there are in FoTM when their damage is no longer laughable. I haven't gotten there yet.. Speaking of which however...

I have actually decided to get to 20+ FoTM as I want to trade relics for Obsidian Shards since it may actually be quicker than farming the required Karma. Do you reckon it is?

#18 Rabenfeder

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

Quote

. Particularily in some of the Dredge encounters, AoE 5+1 Blind Tanking is something you should reconsider (should you ever decide to venture into higher fractals).
I'm curious - aren't near to all Dredge encounters, well, Dredge aka immune to Blind? Always hated everything with Dredge involved while playing Guardian or Thief because of that.

Quote

I choose S/P primarly for the blind tanking.
Why do you choose S/P over D/P? Stunbreaker on S2? I like D/P for the ability to Blind Tank as well as keep weakness up with Deadly Arts 15 and D1.

Edited by Rabenfeder, 06 January 2013 - 11:00 AM.


#19 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 06 January 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

snip

You're right--I misspoke.  Dredge are immune to blinds.  Please excuse the mistake as I wrote that very late at night, and the brain wasn't functioning at full capacity. Suffice it to say, I still blind tank a lot (just not Dredge or anything else with the buff). I was thinking Dredge because I just put a +Damage to Dredge sigil on one of my spare weapons.

My pocket Guardian (my husband, actually) is using GS on nearly every CD in mob intensive areas, one of the few times where AoE > ST for thieves.  I find I have to get in too close to properly CB, so that's where 5+1 is useful. Often I can distract the entire pull, while my teammates wail on them. Note that one thief is full damage, the other is me.  We attempt to control each pull as much as possible.  You could argue that two pure DPS thieves would kill the mob faster, but at higher levels, some of those buggers hit pretty friggin' hard.  As always, each situation is conditional, and I do find myself swapping up armor/weapons/spec multiple times throughout a dungeon.  And again, I'll reiterate that having Blind Tanking ability -and- 2 and 4, covers a hasty retreat from a pull gone wrong quite nicely.

Also, as for Obsidian Shards, it depends on what's available to you.  For karma farming, you can do this without a group. Relics not so much. I'm personally doing it through relics, but as you've probably guessed, I spend a lot of time in fractals.  So really, it's what's more convenient for you. Also, once you hit 40+, that's 4 dailies a day, each giving (forgive me, I'm approximating) 30 relics on completion. After level 20, you won't notice a drastic difficulty spike until 35+, and even then, there are people in their 60's, so it's obviously still doable at that tier (though I'm not sure I'm willing to slug through level 60).

@Rabenfeder
Let me first say, I love D/P. But my current build (and that's not to say I won't change it one day) doesn't go into DA, so you see my dilemma.  And yes, 2 does factor as a deciding factor in this instance. Again, I'll reiterate, I also choose sword because I find it enjoyable and effective (within my group), which in and of itself is an important point. In WoW I limited myself strictly to min-max and the bleeding edge of theorycrafting/progression--I try not to do that in GW2, because it's a pleasant change for me to play what I find fun versus what works out cleaner on paper.

Edited by Vadune Lafrey, 06 January 2013 - 04:50 PM.


#20 BarbieQFreak

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

-rubs hands-

A good high end thief discussion with regard to dungeons >:3

@Vadune

So to start things off, food options. You said you use food in addition to a sharpening stone; I'm curious which do you use? Also, you said in your FotM group, you run a Guardian, two Mesmers, and two thieves, further noting that you were the tankier of the dps duo, and that the other thief was full zerker (well you didn't say but I presume). What food do you use? Is it the same as with the other thief?

Secondly, armor choices. As of right now, I'm working on acquiring a full zerker set of exotic accessories (still running masterwork rings + 1 earring), but my gear is full exotic- 3 pieces Soldier (hat+coat+legs) and 3 pieces Valkyrie (shoulders+gloves+boots). You mentioned that you run a 4/2 mix of Soldier/Valkyrie. I'm wondering which pieces are the Valkyrie, and additionally if you think a 3/3 mix is viable. Lastly, I'm assuming berserker weapons, and would like to know which sigils you use.

Lasty, as an open question, how did you guys come upon your current groups? The amount of derp in PuG's is astounding..

#21 Vadune Lafrey

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostBarbieQFreak, on 08 January 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

snip

Yumm, BBQ...

Our second thief is full zerker up to level 30.  After that he swaps out a few pieces for better survivability (but remains more or less glass cannon in build).

Depending on content we use multiple types of food:
Bowl of Truffle Sautee (100% Chance to gain might on kill; +5% Crit Damage)
Bowl of Truffle Ravioli (+100 Toughness; +70 Precision)
Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup (+100% Precision; +10 Crit Damage)

or if we're on a particularly easy dungeon, Omnomberry Bar (+30% Magic find; +40% Gold from monsters).

My chest and legs are Valk; rest Soldier. My Quiver is purely defensive stats, and I use two inflused Zerker FotM rings with a Zerker necklace. No matter the build, I'd almost always suggest Zerker accessories, because the stats are just fantastic in comparison to other (none jewlrey) pieces. And yes, my default weapon sets are Zerker. I have Strength on my dps bow (I have two bows), and Blood on the defensive bow. My other weapons (depending on gear, which I swap around slightly, again depending on circumstance) have either Force, Accuracy, or Strength on them.  The Dredge annoy the crap out of me, so if I'm fighting those, occasionally I'll use my spare pistol set, one of which has +Damage to Dredge on it.

Concerning your gear, really it's a matter of prefrence and playstyle. Do you prefer more Vitality or more Toughness? Are you more reliant on passive or active defense? Any of the mixes you listed will work, it's just a matter of Survivability or a bit more DPS output. After all, our (nearly) glass cannon thief does just fine with the role he's assigned.

As for group, immediately after starting GW2, I looked for guilds whose members were wearing gear from higher level dungeons. I went through a few until I found a good fit, a nice mix of friendliness and talent, playing on my timezone. The group composition itself wasn't built specifically for any content.  It just so happened that we had two mesmers, two thieves, and one guardian who wanted to do the same content at the same time and worked well together. As it's been said before, it's far less about the class and far more about teamwork and cooperation. My guild primarily focuses on high end PvE, since that's what it did in WoW (where the guild originated), so it's easier to find willing individuals to show up three or four times a week to work on progression.

And @Shadow, I'm proud to say I finally got my Aether ;)

Edited by Vadune Lafrey, 12 January 2013 - 01:39 AM.


#22 Etherion

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 01 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Freshly taken.

Hey Shadow, mind if i ask you what shoulder are u wearing, can't recognise them! Thx in advance! Btw amazing look :P And if i were u i'll change the boots, i hate that dualist ones have that thing between your feet! :P

#23 The Shadow

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostEtherion, on 26 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Hey Shadow, mind if i ask you what shoulder are u wearing, can't recognise them! Thx in advance! Btw amazing look :P And if i were u i'll change the boots, i hate that dualist ones have that thing between your feet! :P

Shoulders are from SE.




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