75 replies to this topic

[King Tomodo]

Eon Lilu, on 08 January 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Yes im self employed, I pick my own hours and work, sometimes I work from home and when I am working / travelling away from home I work my full weeks hours in just 2-3 days with little sleep leaving me 4 days off a week aswell. I also have a laptop for when I travel. Can't stand the soul destroying 9am-5pm rat train typical jobs where you waste half your life working for half the money on 8 hour shifts every day....

Rather get my hours in one go like 12-18 hour shifts and have rest of the week or month off. Sometimes I can get enough hours in to work only 2-3 weeks a month. Plenty of time to play, socialize, rest and have holidays, im actualy on the lower scale, alot of players have 1500+ hours.

And you are complaining about players exploiting the AH, when you seems to sort of do the same, just IRL? Heh the irony and well, sounds like you have a pretty good life, congratz

[Eon Lilu]

King Tomodo, on 20 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

And you are complaining about players exploiting the AH, when you seems to sort of do the same, just IRL? Heh the irony and well, sounds like you have a pretty good life, congratz

How is managing my own work hours and choosing to work twice as much in half the time exploiting a real life auction house? You lost me there.

[Corsair]

Gilles VI, on 20 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Keep insulting me please, it just shows you've never been a part of any decent guild.
MMOs PvE by its nature can't be very hard, because of the diverse playerbase it has, it's only logical, and empirical evidence shows the same.

And lol, if you want to show you got skill, go to PvP, the only place where it's possible to show.
Beating some AI isn't hard, beating human intelligence is.

You are partly correct here. Open world content can't be hard or challenging ever. But instanced content often is because it doesn't need to be completed by ever Bob, Jack, and *. Legendaries in WoW, at least at current tier content, are generally only given to 1 or 3 people per top tier raiding guild. There is grind involved, but you must actually complete content in order to get them. There are only a hand full of guilds on any given server who are at this point accross every server in WoW. Generally you may run into upwards of 12 per server, If that. Why only so few per guild? Because they need to consistently complete difficult content with a limited number of resources given out each time. So, 12 players or so among thousands of other players on a server, and you want to claim that it's easy? Unlike GW2 where amassing funds is the only barrier between you and your shiny.

This is a link containing character completion statistics for Firelands patch and Dragon Soul. Dragon Soul was considered a much easier tier of content than FL by much of the playerbase, but even so only 4% of 85s killed Deathwing on Normal difficulty. Let alone Heroic where the cream of the crop raid. Gear isn't an excuse, either. The introduction of LFR, Valor/Justice gear, and the heroic dungeons each gear you up wonderfully without having to have completed FL.

Blizzard has gotten very good at what they do. They slowly nerf the content after it's release so that people can complet it. Those who get in early get prestige and don't need the nerf. Those who do it later get to experience the content but they don't have the same prestige of doing it earlier. But they are less likely to worry about it.


And yes, PvP is where true challenge lies. But that doesn't mean PvE can't be challenging. There are some damned hard games out there, Ninja Gaiden is famous for it, despite being pure PvE. Just because someone has gotten to the point where they can blissfully walk through the PvE content does not make it instantly easy.

[Riaky]

Soki, on 20 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

This is simply a fallacy.
Most high-tier raiders in WoW played for less overall time than most "casual" raiders.
You've simply never played an MMO that designs PvE encounters well.

I hate to say it, but GW2's community seems to be filled entirely by casuals who have never even tried hard PvE content in other MMOs, judging by how little some people know about it. That's not a bad thing - but it becomes one when some people are vocal and arrogant about a subject they have little experience with.
That's pretty detrimental to a community; particularly when good players really want a PvE challenge that GW2 just isn't capable of providing for them, and all the devs hear/see is "Game's great, stop being so spoiled".


I've been in the top 0.5% of WoW's arena ladder for 4 seasons in a row, during Wrath as a Rogue, and Cataclysm as a Death Knight. I also raided on my Rogue from Sunwell in Burning Crusade, to Dragon Soul in Cataclysm - doing Hard Mode attempts a week after doing the raid's normal mode, and progressing just weeks behind the world-firster guilds.

That's where my commentary and opinions come from: The facet of the game that people say takes skill, and the one people think doesn't. I can honestly say that, barring some counter-comps I queued against in Arena, the PvE side of things was more personally challenging than Arena ever was.

Anyone who open their argument with "assumptions" can't be taking serious from the start. Do you think someone who have made 5 legendaries from the scratch never play real end game PvE? Do you think WoW is the only PvE worth while game out there? Ever heard of FF11? Do you think someone who played MMORPG for 13 years would just go out and contend with just farming for tiny claws and tiny fangs to pave his way for legendaries?

Edited by Riaky, 21 January 2013 - 02:13 AM.

[Soki]

Illein, on 20 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Kiss my ass about white knighting. I don't like ANet's legendary design as it is 100% based on grind, save for the couple instance tokens maybe and those are at best, tedious. It's piss poor design and I didn't defend it the least bit.

But if you think there's more skill involved in Blizzard's juggernaught, you're fooling yourself - because it's equally zero. Z E R O. Can tell me what was challenging about any single of their legendaries though, if you feel otherwise instead of slinging insults.

I liked that they had a story though, sometimes a rather good one (liked the daggers whole theme, tbh.) - and I wish ANet would take a page from their book about that. No argument there.

There's more skill involved in getting a legendary in WoW than getting a legendary in GW2. If you played WoW, I'm not sure why you even want that quantified for you.

Gilles VI, on 20 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

Keep insulting me please, it just shows you've never been a part of any decent guild.
MMOs PvE by its nature can't be very hard, because of the diverse playerbase it has, it's only logical, and empirical evidence shows the same.

And lol, if you want to show you got skill, go to PvP, the only place where it's possible to show.
Beating some AI isn't hard, beating human intelligence is.

How does insulting you disprove anything I've said; when I quantify it for you in the paragraphs below? I'm just calling a duck a duck.

Riaky, on 21 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Anyone who open their argument with "assumptions" can't be taking serious from the start. Do you think someone who have made 5 legendaries from the scratch never play real end game PvE? Do you think WoW is the only PvE worth while game out there? Ever heard of FF11? Do you think someone who played MMORPG for 13 years would just go out and contend with just farming for tiny claws and tiny fangs to pave his way for legendaries?

WoW is not the only game with good PvE design - but it's certainly the most obvious example.
You're kind-of backing up my statement that you haven't played an MMO with good PvE design at any sort of high level by bringing up XI, though. That game was abhorrent, through and through - speaking as a player of 3 years.
You're just kneejerking because your MMO pride is hurt. I quantified my assumption pretty well. Whatever point you're trying to make has been lost by you getting 2mad over getting called out.

I've made my argument - and since this is off-topic, I'll quit posting in this thread.

Spoiler

Some people will choose to remain ignorant, despite statistics existing that points out that not even 0.3% of the population of WoW have accomplished a single heroic-mode encounter, when it was current content. :3

Edited by Soki, 21 January 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 21 January 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

How does insulting you disprove anything I've said; when I quantify it for you in the paragraphs below? I'm just calling a duck a duck.

In my experience skilled people generally have a positive attitude, they don't go full insult mode just to prove themself, that's for small kids, and alot of very good guilds I know have some strict rules about attitude too.

Corsair, on 21 January 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

You are partly correct here. Open world content can't be hard or challenging ever. But instanced content often is because it doesn't need to be completed by ever Bob, Jack, and *. Legendaries in WoW, at least at current tier content, are generally only given to 1 or 3 people per top tier raiding guild. There is grind involved, but you must actually complete content in order to get them. There are only a hand full of guilds on any given server who are at this point accross every server in WoW. Generally you may run into upwards of 12 per server, If that. Why only so few per guild? Because they need to consistently complete difficult content with a limited number of resources given out each time. So, 12 players or so among thousands of other players on a server, and you want to claim that it's easy? Unlike GW2 where amassing funds is the only barrier between you and your shiny.

This is a link containing character completion statistics for Firelands patch and Dragon Soul. Dragon Soul was considered a much easier tier of content than FL by much of the playerbase, but even so only 4% of 85s killed Deathwing on Normal difficulty. Let alone Heroic where the cream of the crop raid. Gear isn't an excuse, either. The introduction of LFR, Valor/Justice gear, and the heroic dungeons each gear you up wonderfully without having to have completed FL.

Blizzard has gotten very good at what they do. They slowly nerf the content after it's release so that people can complet it. Those who get in early get prestige and don't need the nerf. Those who do it later get to experience the content but they don't have the same prestige of doing it earlier. But they are less likely to worry about it.


And yes, PvP is where true challenge lies. But that doesn't mean PvE can't be challenging. There are some damned hard games out there, Ninja Gaiden is famous for it, despite being pure PvE. Just because someone has gotten to the point where they can blissfully walk through the PvE content does not make it instantly easy.

Well in my eyes that doesn't mean it's hard tbh, for me I see alot of raids like lupus in arah, hard for alot of people, very easy for some others.
But it still isn't hard.

And yes there are enjoyable hard games out there, but MMO's aren't one of them for me.
MMO's tend to "increase" difficulty just by stupid mechanics like enrage timers (so DPS gets more important) or very strong skills so you need more healers,...
In the end it's just always the same for me.
It's like how CoD/BF3 singleplayer is "hard" just because they make every bullet deadly, or every grenade deadly even from 20m away, it isn't actually hard, you just need to go slow.

Edited by Mockingjay74, 21 January 2013 - 07:51 AM.
Please do not double post.

[Corsair]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Well in my eyes that doesn't mean it's hard tbh, for me I see alot of raids like lupus in arah, hard for alot of people, very easy for some others.
But it still isn't hard.

And yes there are enjoyable hard games out there, but MMO's aren't one of them for me.
MMO's tend to "increase" difficulty just by stupid mechanics like enrage timers (so DPS gets more important) or very strong skills so you need more healers,...
In the end it's just always the same for me.
It's like how CoD/BF3 singleplayer is "hard" just because they make every bullet deadly, or every grenade deadly even from 20m away, it isn't actually hard, you just need to go slow.

Difficult 1) not easily or readily done; requiring much labor, skill, or planning to be performed successfully.

Heroic Mode raiding certainly fits this. You have to go in with a plan in encounters because of many of the mechanics they posses. Many mechanics stress tanks, healers, or the DPS. So, I've proposed to you a situation where 4% of the applicable playerbase is able to complete the content. That sounds like something there is hard to do. And there is a tier of content even harder than this one. Even fewer people complete it, and you don't think that is some indication of difficulty? There is certainly teamwork and coordination and skill applied. Players work for weeks to get a single boss down. This is a video of the World 2nd kill on Heroic Rag 25 man. It starts with a wiped attempt, I guarantee you there were many more. Even then, they only barely made it with many people dead. Now, when the best people in the game only barely beat the content, you gonna call it easy? World first killers claimed to have wiped over 500 times. These are not hallmarks of easy content from top tier players.

[Illein]

You all realize that Hard Modes weren't even a requirement of legendaries, right? So I don't see how they belong to that discussion whatsoever.

[NotKMoose]

2500 badges... jesus

[Gilles VI]

Corsair, on 21 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Difficult 1) not easily or readily done; requiring much labor, skill, or planning to be performed successfully.

Heroic Mode raiding certainly fits this. You have to go in with a plan in encounters because of many of the mechanics they posses. Many mechanics stress tanks, healers, or the DPS. So, I've proposed to you a situation where 4% of the applicable playerbase is able to complete the content. That sounds like something there is hard to do. And there is a tier of content even harder than this one. Even fewer people complete it, and you don't think that is some indication of difficulty? There is certainly teamwork and coordination and skill applied. Players work for weeks to get a single boss down. This is a video of the World 2nd kill on Heroic Rag 25 man. It starts with a wiped attempt, I guarantee you there were many more. Even then, they only barely made it with many people dead. Now, when the best people in the game only barely beat the content, you gonna call it easy? World first killers claimed to have wiped over 500 times. These are not hallmarks of easy content from top tier players.

I just watched that entire video.
And honestly I fail to see something hard in it, they're all just standing still spamming their skills in the right order.

If you say it took so many tries before they were able to complete it I believe you, but it's not because it was very hard or so, it's just because Blizzard programmed it so that only a very specific combo/team setup/skills can do it.
This is exactly the same discussion as the one about one-shot mechanics in GW2, if it's truly hard or "fake" hard.

I'm sorry but that video really didn't convince me those players were very skilled or so..
PvP'ers with a high rank, or just well known PvP'ers deserve much more respect in my eyes.

[Riaky]

Why would my MMO's pride gets hurt? GW2 isn't a great of a game in the first place, it is something to pass time. Arguing with some over the internet who claimed he "won" the arguments over the internet sure makes me sad and my pride is so battered by my incompetence to carry out an internet slug-fest. This also prove my point that you have no clue or experience what you're talking about when it comes to MMO.

PvE is pretty much a set of algorithm that design with patterns that execute at certain time frame or required certain triggers. Once players familiarize themselves and repeat such set of motions long enough they will eventually beat it. Why do you think a party of 60 people wiped to Dynamis in FF11 when it first released but it only take 16-18 people to clear it 6 months later when the developers didn't tinkered with it. I've seen guilds after guilds bring 30-40 people to a certain boss fight and spend 2-3 hours fighting it just to be wiped meanwhile my guild bring in 6-8 people and kill it in about 30mins. As much as I laugh at other guilds and claimed how "skill" my guild is. It's just come down to they don't have any experience doing it and it required a sequence of skills/traits that need to be executed at certain phase of the fight. I can just sit there grab a book to read of watch porn while pressing 1-0 at 30 mins later, viola I got the rarest items in the game that can sell for a buck load of money on ebay.

Right now GW2 doesn't feel like it requires that much "skill" to play compared to other MMO is simple. The game doesn't force people into a specific role, you don't really need a specific class to get things done with most MMO that uses the holy trinity system. It also lacks of end game PvE raids that other games usually have like 60 men dungeons that take alliances of parties. Then again the game is relatively new, most MMORPGs now a day don't have that much contents for their game until a year after it debut. In a way the developers achieved their objective with the way they designed the game, cater to the casual but only time will tell if they can retain their player base with their mediocre/piss poor end game contents.

The percentage of people who achieved such feast isn't very convincing stats to prove anything. There are many factors as to why not all people can achieve such stats or want such achievement. Most PvE dungeons are designed to run 2-4 hours with an organize group of 20-30+, some even go to a greater extend of 6 hours raid for 60+ people.  Obviously not everyone can commit sitting down in front of their computer screen that long everyday or even once a week. Also not everyone play the game for its ending game PvE contents, some play it just to be socialize with friends, some play it just to do WvW, some play it for it GvG style pvp, some play it for tournament style PvP, some people simply play a game just to burn some time. Remember WoW is the reason and the first MMO that introduce hordes of casual gamers to the genre, so if you want to speak about "casualness" you have to start with WoW. Most MMO that were designed before WoW focused strictly on players who willing to sit in front of their pc 4-6 hours a day and slashing away whatever pixelated monsters the game has to offer.

Edited by Riaky, 21 January 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Soki]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I just watched that entire video.
And honestly I fail to see something hard in it, they're all just standing still spamming their skills in the right order.

If you say it took so many tries before they were able to complete it I believe you, but it's not because it was very hard or so, it's just because Blizzard programmed it so that only a very specific combo/team setup/skills can do it.
This is exactly the same discussion as the one about one-shot mechanics in GW2, if it's truly hard or "fake" hard.

I'm sorry but that video really didn't convince me those players were very skilled or so..
PvP'ers with a high rank, or just well known PvP'ers deserve much more respect in my eyes.

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I just watched that entire video.
And honestly I fail to see something hard in it, they're all just standing still spamming their skills in the right order.

If you say it took so many tries before they were able to complete it I believe you, but it's not because it was very hard or so, it's just because Blizzard programmed it so that only a very specific combo/team setup/skills can do it.
This is exactly the same discussion as the one about one-shot mechanics in GW2, if it's truly hard or "fake" hard.

I'm sorry but that video really didn't convince me those players were very skilled or so..
PvP'ers with a high rank, or just well known PvP'ers deserve much more respect in my eyes.

Riaky, on 21 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Why would my MMO's pride gets hurt? GW2 isn't a great of a game in the first place, it is something to pass time. Arguing with some over the internet who claimed he "won" the arguments over the internet sure makes me sad and my pride is so battered by my incompetence to carry out an internet slug-fest. This also prove my point that you have no clue or experience what you're talking about when it comes to MMO.

PvE is pretty much a set of algorithm that design with patterns that execute at certain time frame or required certain triggers. Once players familiarize themselves and repeat such set of motions long enough they will eventually beat it. Why do you think a party of 60 people wiped to Dynamis in FF11 when it first released but it only take 16-18 people to clear it 6 months later when the developers didn't tinkered with it. I've seen guilds after guilds bring 30-40 people to a certain boss fight and spend 2-3 hours fighting it just to be wiped meanwhile my guild bring in 6-8 people and kill it in about 30mins. As much as I laugh at other guilds and claimed how "skill" my guild is. It's just come down to they don't have any experience doing it and it required a sequence of skills/traits that need to be executed at certain phase of the fight. I can just sit there grab a book to read of watch porn while pressing 1-0 at 30 mins later, viola I got the rarest items in the game that can sell for a buck load of money on ebay.

Right now GW2 doesn't feel like it requires that much "skill" to play compared to other MMO is simple. The game doesn't force people into a specific role, you don't really need a specific class to get things done with most MMO that uses the holy trinity system. It also lacks of end game PvE raids that other games usually have like 60 men dungeons that take alliances of parties. Then again the game is relatively new, most MMORPGs now a day don't have that much contents for their game until a year after it debut. In a way the developers achieved their objective with the way they designed the game, cater to the casual but only time will tell if they can retain their player base with their mediocre/piss poor end game contents.

The percentage of people who achieved such feast isn't very convincing stats to prove anything. There are many factors as to why not all people can achieve such stats or want such achievement. Most PvE dungeons are designed to run 2-4 hours with an organize group of 20-30+, some even go to a greater extend of 6 hours raid for 60+ people.  Obviously not everyone can commit sitting down in front of their computer screen that long everyday or even once a week. Also not everyone play the game for its ending game PvE contents, some play it just to be socialize with friends, some play it just to do WvW, some play it for it GvG style pvp, some play it for tournament style PvP, some people simply play a game just to burn some time. Remember WoW is the reason and the first MMO that introduce hordes of casual gamers to the genre, so if you want to speak about "casualness" you have to start with WoW. Most MMO that were designed before WoW focused strictly on players who willing to sit in front of their pc 4-6 hours a day and slashing away whatever pixelated monsters the game has to offer.

Choosing to be combative and refuse provided evidence is childish.

I'll go back over 11 with you, Riaky: FF11 encounters were incredibly simplistic - and the only way to learn what they did was by popping items to summon/fight them - which you could only do for 20 or so minutes - before they despawned and you had to get the items all over again.
Nothing about the FF11 bosses was hard, aside from being forced to wait between attempts to down them. That fact is made all the more prevelent when a boss tuned for 60 can be killed by 20 when all the simple abilities are known.
You've never played an MMO that had quality PvE content. I rest my case on that fact.

[Gilles VI]

Soki, on 21 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Choosing to be combative and refuse provided evidence is childish.

How is a video of 25 people standing still and using skills showing it's hard, if anything it shows it's mindnumbing boring.

[Riaky]

Soki, on 21 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Choosing to be combative and refuse provided evidence is childish.

I'll go back over 11 with you, Riaky: FF11 encounters were incredibly simplistic - and the only way to learn what they did was by popping items to summon/fight them - which you could only do for 20 or so minutes - before they despawned and you had to get the items all over again.
Nothing about the FF11 bosses was hard, aside from being forced to wait between attempts to down them. That fact is made all the more prevelent when a boss tuned for 60 can be killed by 20 when all the simple abilities are known.
You've never played an MMO that had quality PvE content. I rest my case on that fact.

Obviously this statement clearly showed you never played FF11 let alone able to comment on it. Triggered items HNMs didn't become part of the norm until Wing of Goddess which is like 7 years of FF11 inception. Just so you know FF11 bosses never despawn unless your whole party wiped, so you never race against he clock. Actually there is no boss tuned for 60 people to fight, the max you can have is 18 people per alliance per fight. You never had any case in the first place, all this showed is how inept you are even when it comes to PvE.

What evidences? what scientific proof do you have? What study can you source from or cited from? I see no real evidences here, a bunch of youtube videos with 25-35 people whacking on a mobs don't take that much "skill", it's just a bunch of sequence of actions they have to execute in order to 'defeat" something. Most end games PvE contents don't required skills, it required numbers with the right combinations, a whole lot of patience and a lot load of free time.

Edited by Riaky, 21 January 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Riaky, on 21 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Obviously this statement clearly showed you never played FF11 let alone able to comment on it. Triggered items HNMs didn't become part of the norm until Wing of Goddess which is like 7 years of FF11 inception. Just so you know FF11 bosses never despawn unless your whole party wiped, so you never race against he clock. Actually there is no boss tuned for 60 people to fight, the max you can have is 18 people per alliance per fight. You never had any case in the first place, all this showed is how inept you are even when it comes to PvE.

What evidences? what scientific proof do you have? What study can you source from or cited from? I see no real evidences here, a bunch of youtube videos with 25-35 people whacking on a mobs don't take that much "skill", it's just a bunch of sequence of actions they have to execute in order to 'defeat" something. Most end games PvE contents don't required skills, it required numbers with the right combinations, a whole lot of patience and a lot load of free time.

You shouldn't try to get a civil discussion with him.
I tried to have one once about the gem-shop and ultimately his argument came down to demand sinking and supply rising would make the price increase..
He always acts like he got lots of experience/knowledge but he's just looking for people to insult.

Edited by Gilles VI, 21 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Mockingjay74]

This thread has strayed way off its original discussion and now consists of flaming and arguments and things that generally break forum guidelines, so, I'm locking it.