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What would YOU change in the combat system?


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#1 Heart Collector

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

To start with, this is not a suggestion thread - hence it is not in the Primordus visions section. It's just meant as a sort of place to share our ideas about the games combat system. I am not considering game balance, obviously such ideas would require a redesign. It's just a brainstorming (brainfarting? :P) thread for us to throw in our ideas.

Now, I like the combat in GW2 as it is fast, action-packed and fun. I like the way we can only have so many skills at one time as it makes it more manageable and fun on terms of hotkey allocation and it's more hassle free. However the rather drab auto attack paired with the few skills we can use at any given time makes the whole thing feel a bit too simplistic.

What I would have liked is something along these lines:
  • I would have implemented something similar to the combat mod - thus removing the need to hold R-click to turn the camera, and freeing up the mouse buttons for a more involving "bread and butter" attack. This would include a targeting reticule, which could be toggled on and off of course.
  • The usual #1 "autoattack" would be replaced by a dual function skill depending on the weapon and the profession. Typically, L-click would be the usual basic attack, and R-click would be a more special function. The general lines would be that R-click is a defensive utility for melee, and a sort of "aimed shot" utility for ranged - they could be more static and deliberate.

For example:

   - Holding R-click when wielding a shield/melee two-hander/melee off-hand typically blocks incoming melee attacks at a cost of stamina. Powerful attacks (and certain player attacks of course) like the Ettin's hammer slam thingy are unblockable and need to be dodged. Shields could also block projectiles, GS could block physical AoE, axes could add retaliation etc.


   - Holding R-click when wielding a focus/staff could be better for blocking magical abilities at a cost of stamina. A staff could also block magic AoE, a focus could reflect magical attacks, and a torch could maybe create an AoE burn around the player and/or purge conditions.


   - Holding R-click when wielding a ranged weapon would not block anything but put us in a first person or maybe an "over the shoulder" aiming mode, where we aim at key points on our enemy (think of the crosshairs on massive bosses). Depending on where we shoot we get a different effect, e.g. shooting the head does more damage, shooting the legs criples etc. And the more we aim, the more damage we do, to a maximum of, say, 3 seconds.

  • I would have added more weapon specific skills and the ability to choose between them - or maybe I'd add a "skill rune" type of system in the style of Diablo 3.
  • I would consider utility bar swapping to go with the weapon swap. It happens with underwater weapons anyway!

Again, these are not suggestions and I'm not expecting you to post your opinions on these ideas (though feel free to do so if you like), they're just things I may have enjoyed more - and I wanted to see what my fellow Guru-ers would have done to change the combat more to their liking!

#2 jthamind

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

i would make every class have their own dots (like in WoW) and not share bleeds, poisons and burns. that's such a boring implementation of DoTs in theory, and a poorly designed execution of them in the game itself.

Edited by jthamind, 31 December 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#3 Sheepski

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

In terms of your idea for redesigning the mouse buttons. I like the ideas for the skill usage for them; but I couldn't ever move/run around or even change the camera view without using the right mouse button. So what method would be used for general movement without it?

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#4 Heart Collector

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:04 PM

View PostSheepski, on 31 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

In terms of your idea for redesigning the mouse buttons. I like the ideas for the skill usage for them; but I couldn't ever move/run around or even change the camera view without using the right mouse button. So what method would be used for general movement without it?
WASD (or ESDF) mostly. The way you move in more action oriented RPGs such as Gothic, The Witcher, Skyrim and the like where the camera is fixed behind your character. W moves you forward (and you change direction depending on where you're aiming the mouse), A and D are strafe left/right, S is backpedalling. Of course we'd retain the typical double tap to dodge this way - and even dodge when holding R-click and tapping a direction key. This could even be toggle-able like the combat mod (so we can admire our characters from all angles like vain so-and-so's that we are :P), or use a hybrid system sort of like Mass Effect, where you move around using the mouse like you do now and switch to the combat control when in combat (and vice versa).

I think TERA uses a similar movement system but I haven't played it so I may very well be wrong! Don't quote me on this.

I realize it's not what many MMOers are used to, but this is just a thread for purely subjective ideas anyway rather than actual suggestions ;)

#5 Gerroh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

More dodge roll.

#6 Sheepski

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

Hmm well yeah I couldn't just use WASD, so slow to turn, no precise movements etc... so I think left click would be ok, as an auto attack but for the special function; hmm dunno, somewhere else :D

I like your last 2 ideas. The ability to swap weapon skills, having a choice of 2 or 3 as been discussed quite a bit and it seems popular :)

I've also always wanted a similar setup to Rift, where you can change you whole traits/skills/weapons/gear etc into predefined sets. So changing the utility skills along with weapons would work; but only out of combat imo (don't really want 20 skills available in combat instead of the 15 we have now).

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#7 Heart Collector

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:30 PM

View PostSheepski, on 31 December 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Hmm well yeah I couldn't just use WASD, so slow to turn, no precise movements etc... so I think left click would be ok, as an auto attack but for the special function; hmm dunno, somewhere else :D

I like your last 2 ideas. The ability to swap weapon skills, having a choice of 2 or 3 as been discussed quite a bit and it seems popular :)

I've also always wanted a similar setup to Rift, where you can change you whole traits/skills/weapons/gear etc into predefined sets. So changing the utility skills along with weapons would work; but only out of combat imo (don't really want 20 skills available in combat instead of the 15 we have now).

Well, as I said, you don't use A and D to turn; it happens simply by moving in the direction you point your mouse, A and D are strafing movements not turns. I don't keyboard turn either, haven't done that since Heretic :lol: Though I understand what you mean about movement feeling less precise without the click-to-turn system. Maybe Shift would be an alternative option to R-click? Like in the upcoming Neverwinter? Or it could simply be customizable, you choose which turn-to-click button you want.

#8 Arewn

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

The biggest thing I want is an accurate cross hair of some sort for aiming (ranged abilities in particular).
An overall system closer to that of Phantasy Star Online 2 would be pretty awesome though. It includes left clicking for basic attack and the ability to toggle into a 3rd person shooter mode. The annoying part being (this would especially be the case in GW2) that you have to hit escape (menu) to bring out and use your cursor when ever you need it.

#9 FrogKnight87

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

I'd add a variety of skills to the weapon skills. Each weapon skill slot could have 2 or 3 different choices, giving a wider variety in game play while still limiting the amount of skills

#10 matsif

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

honestly I just want more weapon skills to pick from (like each slot on the weapon bar has 2-3 skills to pick from), a removal/raise of bleed and vuln caps in PvE, and instead of your autoattack being tied to skill 1, skill 1 is a skill by itself and the auto attack just happens, like in gw1.

Edited by matsif, 31 December 2012 - 05:19 PM.


#11 Rouzeki

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:25 PM

My only complaint is the lack of customizability in the UI, keybinds, and camera angles.  I want to be able to bind something to mouse scroll and still be able to zoom on a map (WoW allowed this).  I want to be able to flip the camera behind me permanently without having it circle back around.  I want to be able to move more elements of the UI around and resize them to my liking.

#12 Bryant Again

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

I still use combat mod, having to hold down the right mouse button down forever just sucks. They still need an official option for it. (As a sidenote I'm pretty sure I can duplicate it's functionality with my Anansi keyboard...hmmm...)

For the most part I find the combat pretty enjoyable, but definitely wouldn't mind some more options. The trait system is cool, but it certainly doesn't make for customization we had in GW1. I'd theorize that being able to change one or two weapon skills wouldn't be all too harmful.

I still don't know how I feel about elites in the current form.

View PostRouzeki, on 31 December 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

My only complaint is the lack of customizability in the UI, keybinds, and camera angles.  I want to be able to bind something to mouse scroll and still be able to zoom on a map (WoW allowed this).  I want to be able to flip the camera behind me permanently without having it circle back around. I want to be able to move more elements of the UI around and resize them to my liking.

YES

GW1's UI was simply fantastic, and I want it back.

I wouldn't mind being able to turn off things like "XXX XP!" whenever something died, either.

#13 MisterB

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

I have no idea why anyone puts up with holding right mouse down all the time, or why that made it into the game. I changed that the first week with third-party software. A targeting reticle on mouse cursor would be an amazing option.

On the topic of customizing the UI, allow us to order the weapon skills. Muscle memory makes updates that swap them around not fun.

#14 DuskWolf

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:04 PM

I'd remove most of the deterministic dice rolls. So if you're good, you can go and take on a critter 40 levels above you and win, because you're good. Rather than being one-shotted because the opponent has more dice than you do. I'd also speed up combat by 2-4 times and I'd remove the endurance on dodge-rolls, just putting a 2-3 second cooldown on them. I'd also remove tab-targeting and I'd make it so that the only targeting can be done via a cursor reticle. I'd also add a reticle to the game for this purpose. I'd make combat more fun and skill-based.

This probably sounds like I'd want to turn it into TERA. Probably because I do. The combat of TERA is just far superior on every level.

Also, I tried Combat Mod for a bit but it's essentially TERA Ultra-Ultra-Ultra-Ultra-Ultra-Lite and as such it's absolutely no substitution for the real thing. What CM doesn't fix is that the combat is too damn slow, there are too many restrictions on dodging, and tab targeting exists (when it really shouldn't). Even Penny Arcade is with me on this point, and that's why I can't play GW2. As much as I enjoy the world, the slow combat and determinsitic dice rolls just kill me.

Edited by DuskWolf, 31 December 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#15 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:06 PM

Make it so that you have to manually aim your weapon or spells at your targets to hit them, no auto targeting. Well, make auto targeting optional, at least. It would increase the skill-reliant design of combat, requiring you to be good at aiming to hit your foes.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 31 December 2012 - 11:11 PM.


#16 DuskWolf

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 31 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Make it so that you have to manually aim your weapon or spells at your targets to hit them, no auto targeting. Well, make auto targeting optional, at least.
Exactly. And if such a switch existed, have it so that 60-80% of those damned deterministic dice rolls are turned off, so that I actually stand a chance against a bloody lynx that's some levels above my own. I would really love to have a 'skill vs. no skill' checkbox in the game. Add aiming, remove deterministic dice rolls. If they did that, sped up the combat, and lightened the restrictions upon dodge-rollling? I'd probably log in to GW2 to try it again tomorrow.

But the thing is is that they won't. And TERA already has all of that right now. Soooo...

#17 Juanele

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:33 PM

View PostFrogKnight87, on 31 December 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

I'd add a variety of skills to the weapon skills. Each weapon skill slot could have 2 or 3 different choices, giving a wider variety in game play while still limiting the amount of skills

This is the biggest thing I'd like to have. Be able to customize the weapon skills by having different choices. If that means that I have a bad build then I have a bad build, but it would be my choice on that.

#18 Rouzeki

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostMisterB, on 31 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

I have no idea why anyone puts up with holding right mouse down all the time, or why that made it into the game. I changed that the first week with third-party software. A targeting reticle on mouse cursor would be an amazing option.

On the topic of customizing the UI, allow us to order the weapon skills. Muscle memory makes updates that swap them around not fun.

Mind sharing this third party software?

Edit:  Unless you are talking about Combat Mode.

View PostMisterB, on 31 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

I have no idea why anyone puts up with holding right mouse down all the time, or why that made it into the game. I changed that the first week with third-party software. A targeting reticle on mouse cursor would be an amazing option.

On the topic of customizing the UI, allow us to order the weapon skills. Muscle memory makes updates that swap them around not fun.

Yeah.  I haven't been hit by the updates that swap them (engi main) but I'd love this ability, especially if you could swap them per weapon/kit and not just the same #1-5 for every set you have.

Edited by Rouzeki, 01 January 2013 - 07:32 PM.


#19 Millimidget

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:35 PM

Cut endurance pools by half, and possibly removed the downed state.

#20 MisterB

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostRouzeki, on 01 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Mind sharing this third party software?

Edit:  Unless you are talking about Combat Mode.

I haven't tried Combat Mode, which is a custom Auto Hotkey script. I already had implemented a right mouse toggle using X-Mouse Button Control. It's free, pretty simple, well documented, and has a lot of features. I only use very basic functions for GW2.

Here's a link to my profile. If you drop this into the XMBC folder, it may just work. If not, there's the documentation. You can view it with any text editor to see that it's not harmful.

http://www.mediafire...ld_Wars_2.xmbcs

Note that you must press and hold Alt in this configuration to use other right click functions such as preview, contacting players, etc. The right click windows don't appear to work if right click is held, so I assigned Alt to temporarily disable the toggle. Unfortunately, about face also does not work when right click is held, or there's some other reason it's not working for me.

Edited by MisterB, 01 January 2013 - 08:14 PM.


#21 Segraine

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

I'd like to see 2 things:

1) Drop the slower movement speed when in combat.

2) Encourage parties with a special party combo system. This will require skills to target players. Allow players to combine attacks in various ways for example:

An Ele casts Frozen Ground while targeting a Greatsword wielder, encasing the sword in ice that shatters on the next hit, causing chill and a few stacks of bleeding.

A Ranger targets a character and uses Flame Trap; essentially turning that player into a bomb. I am thinking about the old days of loading up a teammate in Goldeneye with remote mines and sending 'em on a kamikaze run :D.

Four eles all target a single party member and cast a Fire, Lightning, Water, and Earth spell on them. This gives the player a one time use "Shadow magic" spell they can use to engulf an enemy in a maelstrom of all elemental damage.

It would make things a lot more interesting than just combo fields. It should only work for parties as well.

Edited by Segraine, 01 January 2013 - 09:26 PM.


#22 jthamind

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 01 January 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

and possibly removed the downed state.

i forgot to mention that. i would personally remove the downed state from PvP. it seems so lame to down somebody and they throw a rock at your teammate just before their teammate kills him, so the person i downed gets revived. it doesn't really make much sense and isn't really necessary imo.

i could see leaving it in PvE, though, because the content is designed around the fact that people will be downed occasionally, but you can fight off death. but in PvP it's just an unnecessary mechanic, plus it has the problems of Quickness stomps and stealth stomps.

#23 Draehl

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:48 PM

I would remove the focus on autoattack this game has been designed around. So often you're waiting on cooldowns or not using a skill because there's no point in using it. We need shorter cooldowns and/or the 2-5 weapon skills to all do more damage than auto. This is already the case for the most part with Elementalist and Warrior (the two professions that probably have the most polish) but let me tell you, as a Necro with a dagger in the mainhand you have maybe one weapon skill that is worth using over autoattack.

I never thought I'd say it, but I do miss WoW in this regard. At least in WoW soloing and the act of doing damage was actually interesting- you'd use at least 3 skills, which is more than I can say for most professions in GW2. With the condensed GW skill bars it's imperative to make sure each weapon's combat flow is properly designed, otherwise you're stuck with autoattack and using the occasional other skill for a defensive or utilitarian purpose.

This isn't really a problem when you're doing big events or dungeons, but when you're just killing by yourself and don't need any utility or defensive skills your skillbar quickly becomes mostly useless buttons...

Edited by Draehl, 01 January 2013 - 09:49 PM.


#24 jthamind

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

View PostDraehl, on 01 January 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I would remove the focus on autoattack this game has been designed around. So often you're waiting on cooldowns or not using a skill because there's no point in using it. We need shorter cooldowns and/or the 2-5 weapon skills to all do more damage than auto. This is already the case for the most part with Elementalist and Warrior (the two professions that probably have the most polish) but let me tell you, as a Necro with a dagger in the mainhand you have maybe one weapon skill that is worth using over autoattack.

I never thought I'd say it, but I do miss WoW in this regard. At least in WoW soloing and the act of doing damage was actually interesting- you'd use at least 3 skills, which is more than I can say for most professions in GW2. With the condensed GW skill bars it's imperative to make sure each weapon's combat flow is properly designed, otherwise you're stuck with autoattack and using the occasional other skill for a defensive or utilitarian purpose.

This isn't really a problem when you're doing big events or dungeons, but when you're just killing by yourself and don't need any utility or defensive skills your skillbar quickly becomes mostly useless buttons...

i think this is an interesting point, and i've never thought about it like that. if the skills were balanced to the point where they could have lower cooldowns and thus be used more often, it could make for a more steady and fluid combat system. cause like you said, sometimes you get to a point where you've used your only good skills on that weapon and you're just spamming auto attack until you have a good button to press again. lol.

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

Speed up the whole thing. Two players with AoE and swiftness move and kill at about the rate that I'd consider acceptable when soloing. The amount of killing that one needs to do to level up is just too massive for the current game's speed.

#26 Red_Falcon

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

I'd remove cooldowns altogether on weapon skills and replace them with an initiative-like system for all classes.
After playing a Thief I just can't go back to having cooldowns, it's just way smoother without them and with resource management instead, at least I have to use my brain to gauge init and use skills when they are actually needed rather than using stuff "on cd" or "by rotation".

#27 Mel

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:51 PM

Biggest issue I can think of: Re-institute the blocking mechanic from GW1; make the cylinders we are underneath our avatars a specific size so they can't be jumped over and allow jump skills to ignore that effect (ah la Burning Retreat ignores and allows you to pass through a person/NPC, Whirlwind Attack lets you into the backline, or GS Pull allows you to grab the backline and frontline for the AoE ball). That would actually allow for some tactics beyond cripple dodgeroll dodgeroll.

nitpicks:
Allow weapon swaps for engineer and elementalist (with a penalty when performed! 6-10 second cooldown for all skills when you swap, something like that). Its not a question of underpowered at all, but its nice to be able to swap a weapon based on changing tactics without going into inventory every time.

Kill the dodgeroll exploit for getting out of or into certain blocking skills. Line of Warding is...well, its downright useless last I used it.  Allow skills to pass through, not stamina.

Actually would like to see Downed states buffed. The heal skill should be interuptable by certain skills, not a smack from a wand or mace. Reduce HoT in PvP, leave as is in PvE.

There are plenty more, but I'm sure those suggestions will result in enough flames. Don't want to feed the trolls too much or they'd get a tummy ache :D

EDIT: oh, and a hotkey or clickable button to turn autoattack off and on "on the fly". In PvE I use it because I'm lazy, PvP = nuh uh

Edited by Mel, 01 January 2013 - 11:58 PM.


#28 NobodieCro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

Add blood , and finish moves :D

#29 iLag

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:05 AM

For skills to not be aimed at your target but straight infront of you. Yes this would be a major rework. Why? Well for one my main pet peeve is with Leaping Death Blossom. It goes to what target and not whats infront of you like how I feel every skill should be unless its aimed

#30 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

More skills.
More Skills.
MORE SKILLS.
Sick an tired of playing what everyone is playing, I want more customizations, actual customizations not just traits with +X damage.

And make the running faster, remove downed state.




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