59 replies to this topic

[The Condor]

I'm a fairly experienced dungeon runner.  I probably have enough experience to lord it over others and be an "Elitist," but I generally prefer to not be a total dick to others.  I also find that good players will recognize other good players so you don't have to brag or qq about others.  That whole actions speaks louder than words thing.  That's why this event sort of surprised me:

The Story

Me and my brother were forming a group to do AC story mode.  We were both lvl 80 and in full exotics.  We got two other people in the group who were in the 30s.  I had no problem with this, hell I was glad to get a group together for it.  Then we got another member, who was in the 20s.  We asked if he was going to get on another char, he didn't reply.  So my bro kicked and i seconded it.  Figured he was new and didn't know.

Then one of the other party members started giving us crap for it.  It's a level 30 dungeon, so I didn't see the problem and told him so.  He insinuated that I was an Elitist for discriminating based on level.  He also said a lvl 25 can do it because you get the invite then (which is wrong, you get the invite at 30).  He starts about how he's so experienced with dungeons and some other crap i don't remember.  We eventually go him to shut up and ran the dungeon well enough.

He wasn't that great in the dungeon for all his big talk either.  I mean, of course I expected me and my bro to carry the team, no surprise that we did.  But i had no issues with the parties performance overall, they just won't compare to lvl 80s in exotics, it's no big deal.

I just expect all members to contribute and not be dead weight.  That's all i ask.  Does that make me an elitist?  Because I see myself as being objective.  Bringing in an under-leveled and therefore under-geared character would drag the team down and it shouldn't be a big deal to wait a few more levels to be 30.  Every other time a beginner joins without realizing he's under-leveled for whatever dungeon I'm doing, he apologizes and leaves.

Main Point

Where is the balance between being an elitist and being objective?
Do we as a community over use the term "elitist?"
What would you tolerate in a group regarding gear, level, or experience and would you consider yourself an elitist or not?

[ayoblame]

People overuse the term elitist. Anytime you set any sort of lines people want to run around and use the term elitist. Only want level 80s in your a group to ensure a smooth run? Elitist. Only want people in decent gear in your run? Elitist. Want to play the game with people you feel are of equal skill to yourself? You're an elitist.  So pretty much if you're not accepting any or everyone someone is going to call you an elitist.

There's no middle ground on the internet every one is on one side or the other. I say play the game with whoever and however you feel like it. Everyone else can eat a kitten.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

I personally believe that there isn't an actual line between being an elitist and being objective, but more like a gray area. Sometimes you are one, sometimes you're none, and sometimes you're both. It pretty much depends on the attitude, the reasoning, and the patience of the person in question.

As for overusing the term, it's always easy to overuse a term. But any use of any term needs to be justified, and not just thrown around like any other useless insult.

I can allow some levels under, but I will normally say that I have my doubts about their ability to perform. That is not to say that I'll instantly blame them if the team's doing bad inside the dungeon, but I do think that there's a reason for the level recommendation and that the more underleveled you are, the more skillful you have to be to compensate for what you lack. As for equipment I couldn't care less. Unless you go naked

[Afya]

I can tolerate most "elitist move" but only one I can't stand. Asking to show dungeon tokens or ranks or any sort. I won't ever join those groups even if I met the "requirement".

[jthamind]

in general, i don't think the term elitist is overused, and there are definitely people like that out there.

as far as your examples, kicking somebody who is five levels lower than the requirement isn't elitist at all, i would have done the same thing (although i probably would have at least told him why).

as far as the "expect everybody to contribute and not be dead weight"....i'd actually say that's slightly elitist, because that assumes that everybody is equal and everybody should automatically be able to play at the same level. this is a video game just like any other PC or console game; some are going to be great at it, some are going to be bad at it, and there are going to be a lot of people in between. i don't mind if somebody generally isn't good at the game, as long as they're honestly trying their best and taking any advice on how to get better. if somebody is in my group and has never done the dungeon before but says so up front, then i won't get angry with them if they have trouble, because at least the group has a heads up and can try to help them. and the only way to get better is to learn from your mistakes and keep trying.

now on the flip side, if a person enters the dungeon having never done it before and doesn't tell the group, then it can be really flippin annoying when we run into a new area (like the four flame totems in CoF path 1) and the new guy runs around like a fool because everybody assumed we'd all done it before. that's just inconsiderate and wasting our time.

basically, if a person is considerate to the group and is trying their best, i don't mind whether they're good or bad at the game.

as far as being elitist, i'd say it's those people who just act like just because they've run a dungeon a lot, or because they have a cool weapon or gear set that you don't, or because of w/e other factor, that they're automatically better than you in this virtual game world, and you have to listen to everything they say and do everything their way, or else you're a noob that needs to l2p etc etc.

couple of examples....

i was running CoF path 1 the other day and after the first boss (bridge part) the mesmer is like "skip this part." and somebody in our group was like "Sure" in agreement. the mesmer said, "that wasn't a question. :3" it's like....seriously? * you, we should let you run past and do the rest of the dungeon yourself for trying to act like you speak for everyone. that really got on my nerves, not because i didn't want to skip (i actually didn't mind skipping) but because the person just acted like he said it so therefore that's what we're doing.

another instance was in HotW. i run an ele staff heal/support build, so i'm constantly switching attunements and buffing/healing the party as much as possible, while still throwing out constant spells and combo fields. well, our group overall was pretty tanky and had low dps, so a ranger told me to switch to fire. and the way he said it was like....i better switch to fire because HE said so and therefore i should do it. never mind the fact that me switching to fire would make the whole point of my build useless and i would be doing even less damage. but apparently this ranger knew everything about me and it was my fault for not sitting in one attunement like he wanted. not only that, but later in the dungeon i was downed because our group pulled way more than we should have, and the ranger had a clean chance to revive me before i died but just sat there and ignored me.

people like that with the "my way or the highway because i'm better than you" attitudes just need to have their games deleted and go play single player games, because they bring everybody else down. sure, i want to be good at the game, which i think i do a decent job of, and i want to do things like dungeons easily and quickly, but i'm not going to act like everybody else has to not only be perfect, but be perfect in the way that i say, or else they should l2p. that's just annoying and there's no place for it in multiplayer games.

Edited by jthamind, 01 January 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[The Shadow]

I don't care if people are lvl 80 or geared well or a specific profession. But I do care if they:

1) Don't listen to simple instructions that are arguably considered general consensus; (i.e. 2/3 till 80 then all in, kill all 4 at once)
2) Are argumentative (i.e. Let's skip Kholer, Troll hasn't spawned "NO MUST KILL KHOLER FOR 10S NUB!")
3) Go afk, without saying anything.

I always bring a friend along so I know that if I want to kick someone... it'll happen. Do these things make me an elitist? I hope not, I just don't want to waste my life doing something mundane for shiny things.

[AKGeo]

ayoblame, on 01 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

People overuse the term elitist. Anytime you set any sort of lines people want to run around and use the term elitist. Only want level 80s in your a group to ensure a smooth run? Elitist. Only want people in decent gear in your run? Elitist. Want to play the game with people you feel are of equal skill to yourself? You're an elitist.  So pretty much if you're not accepting any or everyone someone is going to call you an elitist.

There's no middle ground on the internet every one is on one side or the other. I say play the game with whoever and however you feel like it. Everyone else can eat a kitten.

Only wanting 80s is elitist. Only wanting exotic/ascended gear is elitist. Why? Because a level 75 can do everything but HotW and up. You're scaled down to that level otherwise. And traits/gear are minimal when your stats are calculated at that downscale. Grandmaster traits are not going to make or break a game, and you can have the good ones at level 60 if you want them.

So yes, that's elitist. But a couple of level 30s in a group getting on the level 80 leader for kicking a level 20-something player because he's not high enough level to run a dungeon is ridiculous.

Any time you'll say you'll only take someone of XYZ level or gear spec IF IT'S NOT MANDATED BY THE GAME ITSELF, you're being elitist. If you want higher level players, don't pug. That simple.

[DurtyDan]

I was on gw2lfg recently and just browsing to see what dungeon groups I could get into, and I saw this one request which said Wanting dps classes only for CoF run. No necros, healing guardians banner spec warriors. Must have 2.5k+ achievement points. the preference on classes I didn't care about since many people do that but the 2.5k ahcievement points made me LOL. I didn't realize 2.5k achievement points guaranteed your pro at doing a CoF run. ( I only have 2k and I'm experienced enough imo for CoF )

[Soki]

True elitism is impossible to practice with GW2.
It's simply too easy for people to really bother with optimization.

[Marc1k1]

Soki, on 01 January 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

True elitism is impossible to practice with GW2.
It's simply too easy for people to really bother with optimization.

And I believe that was done purposely, at least to some extent.

The only time I believe people are being outrageous when it comes to dungeon runs (or in WoW's case this happen with Raids mostly) is when people expect a pug to have completed the place already. As if running the dungeon once means you actually remember what to do or even what happens in the dungeon/raid, that's what always got on my nerves.

I would say you weren't being elitist but to be honest I went to AC Story Mode at Level 28 and with around two other people below Lv30 2/5 of the group were in between Lv30/40 and we did fine, as for a level 25 I don't know how much difference there would be assuming they could even do the dungeon (I don't know much about the level restrictions on dungeons assuming they exist at all that is)

I suppose as long as you gave the guy a good amount of time to respond and or switch character then I'd say you did nothing particularly wrong,

[lmaonade]

no you're not in the wrong, hell that wouldn't even be counted as "elitist" attitude, there's nothing wrong in not accepting people below the recommended level, it's recommended for a reason.

As for the whole concept of "elitist", it's definitely out there, I've seen everything from minimum achievement point requirements to equipment requirements, which is just stupid and ironic imo, if I know I'm good at running dungeons I could care less about what my teammates are doing since I'll be my own crutch.

I'm definitely not an elitist, once I've accepted someone into a party I never kick them out (unless afk and all that jazz), even if they perform terribly and are a burden in the dungeon run. They're people too, they can learn without me screaming at them (maybe), furthermore everyone has a first time, so I see no reason to discriminate anyone.
That being said, I absolutely hate PuGs and would avoid them whenever possible because I've seen some TERRIBLE ones.

[Dasryn]

this is my favorite:

"LF2M AC Exp all paths speed runs skipping kohler MUST BE 80"

bunch of wannabe elitist.  "must be 80"?  what a joke, just because you are 80 doesnt make you a better player.  you can have all 80s with all traits spent, but their build has no synergy, or they dont know the dungeon, or they cant think on their feet, so what good is the level?

you wanna talk about moronic, its expecting your party to be comprised of nothing but 80's and auto assuming all the 80's are specced the way they are supposed to be and know how to play the game.

[Symbiont]

you handled that quite good and not elitist at all, game is invested with carebears.
one carebear is terrible enough and these two aggressive carebears need to be thought a lesson!

[Renegade26]

Some people are convinced that because they play casually, they are excused to play poorly. I am not convinced by this and would say that objectively a poorly equipped character is not as good as a well equipped character, and more convincingly a poorly played character is far weaker than a well played one. Those that disagree with my initial statement would surely say that I was being too elitist and should accept their performance no matter.

[Eliyahu]

Rickter, on 01 January 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

this is my favorite:

"LF2M AC Exp all paths speed runs skipping kohler MUST BE 80"

bunch of wannabe elitist.  "must be 80"?  what a joke, just because you are 80 doesnt make you a better player.  you can have all 80s with all traits spent, but their build has no synergy, or they dont know the dungeon, or they cant think on their feet, so what good is the level?

you wanna talk about moronic, its expecting your party to be comprised of nothing but 80's and auto assuming all the 80's are specced the way they are supposed to be and know how to play the game.

Speed runs are for speed.  If a character is not 80 they are not optimized for a speed run period.  Sure a lot of 80s are terrible -- but I'd rather take a chance with an 80 on a speed run rather than take a sub-80 who absolutely cannot contribute on the level required for a good speed run.

It's not elitist.  You're being a dick if you join a group that advertises as a speed run and you build isn't optimized.  Join another group.  Don't waste other players' time.

Edited by Eliyahu, 01 January 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Gileas898]

"Elitist" is a term coined by casuals who don't want to be left out of anything the game has to offer despite being bad and casual.

[The Shadow]

I got kicked from a party once for using my Shortbow.

Half-way through a boss, I had 200-ish hp, switched to Shortbow, evaded, moved away, refuged myself.

This warrior said; "Lol, Shortbow noob" then proceeded to kick me.

That's un-justifiable elitism. Rather funny though.

[Trei]

Renegade26, on 01 January 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

Some people are convinced that because they play casually, they are excused to play poorly. I am not convinced by this and would say that objectively a poorly equipped character is not as good as a well equipped character, and more convincingly a poorly played character is far weaker than a well played one. Those that disagree with my initial statement would surely say that I was being too elitist and should accept their performance no matter.

This is not about acceptance.
You are  making these players out to be a group of self entitled wannabes.

It is about tolerance.
If they do not play as well as they could, advice them, give them suggestions, guide them.

As opposed to ridicule them and then kick them for not knowing "better".

if one is not good enough to outright lead even such a noob group through a successful run, he is not good enough to criticize.

Who sets the benchmark for what's good or poor performance, good gear vs poor gear anyhow?

Is fine gear considered poor gear in AC?
Is masterwork considered poor gear in Arah?

Why would anyone who thinks like this even be lining up in a lalala PUG?

Edited by Trei, 01 January 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Auenwing]

The Condor, on 01 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

...SNIP...


Main Point

Where is the balance between being an elitist and being objective?
Do we as a community over use the term "elitist?"
What would you tolerate in a group regarding gear, level, or experience and would you consider yourself an elitist or not?

I am an elitist. Inside my guild. As are my guildmates.  We have to be. We have run as a swat team (less than required to do raids/instances) for over a dozen MMO years. We have all signed up to do this, and understand the trade-offs and are willing to do what it takes to make our group successful as a whole. It's OUR choice.

I am NOT an elitist. Outside my guild, when I run PuGs, or server wide raids. The game is social. Many players have differing values about what constitutes fun, grouping, etcetera. If a player is an "honorable newbie", or playing to be social, to learn a new dungeon/encounter or whatever else, in a constructive, helpful manner, they are more than welcome. Diversity is the norm in a public environment.

If a player is there for a "free ride", expecting to be carried, immature, deliberately destructive, without regards to the consequences of their specific behavior as it relates to other players,  they need to be removed from the group, for the benefit of the rest of the players.


That's my balance. Based on 55 years of social interactions.

Do what works for you. And understand others may or may not agree.


.

Edited by Auenwing, 01 January 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[ayoblame]

AKGeo, on 01 January 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Only wanting 80s is elitist. Only wanting exotic/ascended gear is elitist. Why? Because a level 75 can do everything but HotW and up. You're scaled down to that level otherwise. And traits/gear are minimal when your stats are calculated at that downscale. Grandmaster traits are not going to make or break a game, and you can have the good ones at level 60 if you want them.

So yes, that's elitist. But a couple of level 30s in a group getting on the level 80 leader for kicking a level 20-something player because he's not high enough level to run a dungeon is ridiculous.

Any time you'll say you'll only take someone of XYZ level or gear spec IF IT'S NOT MANDATED BY THE GAME ITSELF, you're being elitist. If you want higher level players, don't pug. That simple.

Thanks for making my point. Another person who doesn't understand elitism.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism 1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

There's a keyword in there I want to point out and it's perceived. It's not perception when one states than an 80 in exotics will outperform ,even while down leveled in say a level 35 dungeon, an actual level 35, if they are equally skilled of course. It's not perception that a level 80 in exotics will outperform a level 80 in greens, if they are equally skilled. So, at equal skill levels gear and traits make a difference. In MMORPG's unlike pokemon or any other single player RPG where you build up your characters, the way you play the game effects the people you play with.

Unfortunately this game is not 100% balanced. Different professions/builds bring more or less to a group. Me wanting to pick a specific profession or a specific type of build isn't elitism. It's me wanting my dungeon group as efficient as possible. Do I question what kind of gear people have in pugs? Most of the time, no. Will I question someones gear when they die 10 times in a dungeon and we have to kill bosses/clear trash with out that person over and over? I might.  Will I show preference to a profession/build that's going to synergize more with the group I have? Absolutely. Maybe understanding that the way different builds work or what different builds/professions bring to a group makes me an elitist.

Trying to make your pug the best it can be isn't elitism. Min/Maxing isn't elitism contrary to popular GW2 forum opinions. Me telling you that no, you can't come to my group because you're a ranger not knowing your build, traits or skill level could be considered elitism. But me telling you no you can't join my pug because you're a condition specced ranger and there 2 other bleeders in my group is not elitism. It's me making sure we aren't gimping our DPS when there's a 25 stack bleed limit and knowing that the necro alone in our group already can stack 15+ bleeds alone on 5+ targets at once.

Edited by ayoblame, 01 January 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[Redhawk2007]

I don't think you're an elitist. Elitism is more of an attitude that leads to a predictable set of behaviors such as bragging, abusing and putting down other players, or gratuitously kicking players every time the slightest mistake is made or for completely frivolous reasons.

"Elitism" is really a poor term for this kind of behavior as it implies the people engaging in it are exclusively highly-skilled players. In reality, they are often just immature, anti-social morons who enjoy inflicting their personality disorders on other people. This kind of behavior is common in MMOs but I don't see where what you did here was wrong. You kicked the guy at the start of the group because he was too low level for the dungeon. Unless you kicked him without an explanation, which is rude, this seems reasonable. You didn't waste the guy's time or act like an ass by waiting until you were halfway through the dungeon to kick him.

I rarely kick people from my groups in the MMOs I have played. I will never kick a player for incompetence, as everyone needs to learn somewhere, but I will kick them for acting like jerks or openly refusing to collaborate with other players.

I was fortunate in WoW to have a group of friends who were laid back and shared my philosophy of going easy on noobs and allowing them in our groups regardless of the cost. This doesn't make people who don't share my philosophy "elitist."

Real "elitists" are jerks, and playing with people who go into four alarm freak-out mode every time someone screws up is tiresome as hell. No matter what, we had fun and had a good laugh at the silly mistakes people make. Indeed, noobs added an element of unpredictability and fun to dungeon runs that would otherwise be boring, cookie-cutter repetition.

[Reason on Cooldown]

I hardly think you were elitist.  You weren't getting a response from the 25, and I think it was the guy giving you crap who was a bit ignorant.  Obviously he got the level on the invite wrong.  But at a certain level disparity (I forget how many), all hits are glancing.  5 levels is pretty close to that limit.  At that point, he is a liability.  He can do no damage, and will get 1 or 2 shot constantly.

Unless you're doing a charity run for someone, and feel you can 4-man it, what's the point of bringing them along?  They don't even serve as good cannon fodder (if you were someone who would use another player as bait like that) and they do no damage.

A friend took me to the claw island story quest when I was 6-8 levels below it.  Eventually I just played the "stay alive at all costs" game, because I was totally ineffectual otherwise.  Fortunately, I am remarkably good at not dying.   He died more than I did (did I even die....I forget lol).

UN-KILLABLE!!!!

[Soki]

Marc1k1, on 01 January 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

And I believe that was done purposely, at least to some extent.

The only time I believe people are being outrageous when it comes to dungeon runs (or in WoW's case this happen with Raids mostly) is when people expect a pug to have completed the place already. As if running the dungeon once means you actually remember what to do or even what happens in the dungeon/raid, that's what always got on my nerves.

I would say you weren't being elitist but to be honest I went to AC Story Mode at Level 28 and with around two other people below Lv30 2/5 of the group were in between Lv30/40 and we did fine, as for a level 25 I don't know how much difference there would be assuming they could even do the dungeon (I don't know much about the level restrictions on dungeons assuming they exist at all that is)

I suppose as long as you gave the guy a good amount of time to respond and or switch character then I'd say you did nothing particularly wrong,

I think it's a problem that the game is so easy, in the "challenging" content - which is why I hardly touch it anymore.
I sincerely hope the braindead encounter-design wasn't on purpose.

Hope the changes in jan/feb breathe some life into it.

Edited by Soki, 01 January 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[MisterB]

It's not elitist to suggest players read the warning from the developers stating that content is intended for a higher level. The game's mechanics punish lower levels rather harshly.

[Krazzar]

Gileas898, on 01 January 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

"Elitist" is a term coined by casuals who don't want to be left out of anything the game has to offer despite being bad and casual.

It's hard to find a dumber comment.

Rickter, on 01 January 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

this is my favorite:

"LF2M AC Exp all paths speed runs skipping kohler MUST BE 80"

bunch of wannabe elitist.  "must be 80"?  what a joke, just because you are 80 doesnt make you a better player.  you can have all 80s with all traits spent, but their build has no synergy, or they dont know the dungeon, or they cant think on their feet, so what good is the level?

you wanna talk about moronic, its expecting your party to be comprised of nothing but 80's and auto assuming all the 80's are specced the way they are supposed to be and know how to play the game.

You have more active traits at 80 so techically that level 80 character is providing more to the team, but my groups have never paid much attention to the level as long as they meet the minimum. It doesn't mean much when execution actually matters, I've had my fair share of level 80 party members in full exotics that can't play well at all, and we're talking fundamentals. People just want to try to make it as easy as possible and statistically a "full level 80" character removes any statistical weakness (assuming they are setup in a way that creates a coherent and useful build). At least it's open to all level 80 players and not like it was in the farce that was GW1. What has been more annoying to me lately is wannabe exploiters that spend ten times the effort trying to get their secret squirrel tactic to work instead of just doing the dungeon.

[Danael]

I don't think you're being elitistic for kicking a player because of them

a) being more than 5 levels under the recommended level for story mode.
b ) being an utter jerk making teamplay impossible.
c) disregarding pre-agreed strategy often.
d) being in the dungeon for the first time and not taking advice.

In my opionion everything else you can work with and/or around. Most problems I have had with combinations of b ), c) and d) and then I'm getting impatient and bossy. Sorry, but idiocy and being a jerk is the combination that sets me off so fast it's not even funny. Call me an elitist - I don't care. I play that game how I want it and with whom I want it (and that probably makes me a good example for an elitist).

Edited by Danael, 01 January 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[JONO51]

You should've kicked the idiot along with the 25.

[Heart Collector]

"Elite" vs "elitism" is about the attitude IMO. To set an example with football (soccer for you guys in the US), the coach Jose Murinho is a great example of an elitist, whereas Pep Guardiola is elite. They're both great coaches, but Murinho's superior attitude and the way he looks down on others makes him elitist.

If you're a superb player but acting superior and self-important, lording over others, showing impatience and a lack of common courtesy, you're an elitist. If you're a superb player and also courteous, helpful and take time to care about your fellow player, you're not.

[mazut]

People just want to finish the dungeon, and 80 lvl group almost garantee that. Its not because you are noob, but because you will die more often and wont contribute much for fast and "repairless" completion.
Still there are players who start to blame and point at you after one mistake, but much less then in GW1, at least for now.

Edited by mazut, 01 January 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[Sheepski]

DurtyDan, on 01 January 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

I was on gw2lfg recently and just browsing to see what dungeon groups I could get into, and I saw this one request which said Wanting dps classes only for CoF run. No necros, healing guardians banner spec warriors. Must have 2.5k+ achievement points. the preference on classes I didn't care about since many people do that but the 2.5k ahcievement points made me LOL. I didn't realize 2.5k achievement points guaranteed your pro at doing a CoF run. ( I only have 2k and I'm experienced enough imo for CoF )

Haha I've thought about saying 4k+ before, given the general lack of common sense I've seen in PuGs recently.

And nah I'm not being elitist.

Rickter, on 01 January 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

this is my favorite:

"LF2M AC Exp all paths speed runs skipping kohler MUST BE 80"

bunch of wannabe elitist.  "must be 80"?  what a joke, just because you are 80 doesnt make you a better player.  you can have all 80s with all traits spent, but their build has no synergy, or they dont know the dungeon, or they cant think on their feet, so what good is the level?

you wanna talk about moronic, its expecting your party to be comprised of nothing but 80's and auto assuming all the 80's are specced the way they are supposed to be and know how to play the game.

I think that is the thing that annoys me the most; how people assume that a certain profession HAS to be geared and play a certain way because, of course, that's the only way to play... that's elitism imo.