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Elitist vs. Objective

dungeon elitist

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#31 Millimidget

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostThe Condor, on 01 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Where is the balance between being an elitist and being objective?
Wherever you're comfortable setting it. Just be warned, there are all kinds of crazies out there, each with their own personal opinions.

Btw, there's a ignore feature ( /block )...use it.

#32 G L J

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:20 PM

I feel that I should link this video, it talks about elitism and other fun labels:

Basically, I feel that it swings both ways. On one hand it's perfectly reasonable to make requests and requirements. The problem with elitism is when those requests and requirements become unreasonable. There's a gray area that varies by person.

#33 Red_Falcon

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostG L J, on 01 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

On one hand it's perfectly reasonable to make requests and requirements. The problem with elitism is when those requests and requirements become unreasonable. There's a gray area that varies by person.

This.

There is a fine line between asking a person for a bare minimum of skill requirements and asking for proofs and whatnot.
No one is happy to play with a person that continuously dies and doesn't add anything to the team.
No one wants a person who does nothing but autoattack or spam skill randomly, unable to know where to stay, how to avoid fire etc.

My opinion is that if your current skill is low you should play in the low brackets, you can't just jump in my fractals 30 team with a terrible build and low skills come on.

#34 fatrodmc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:03 AM

I think asking for a minimum agony resistance in high level fracs is ok.

But I saw a fracs post on lfg yesterday saying no rangers or thieves...Made me laugh.

#35 The Condor

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

There was a few posts here that explained elitism as more of an attitude as opposed to play-style.  My opinion is that you've hit the nail on the head.  I suppose I haven't thought about categorizing it before, but when I think of elitists I've seen before, they were mostly just jerks.  They may be talented jerks, but still jerks.

Someone can be incredible at the game and be polite and humble, and there can also be terrible players who constantly bitch and moan.  There's plenty of unreasonable and *ish people in any gaming community and it has nothing to do with that players skill level.

I think it's just easier to recognize elitists, the people making unreasonable demands so you'll be allowed to join the group.  Of course there's a flip side to that, people can make unreasonable demands on the opposite side of elitism, if that makes sense.  Like expecting a free ride through a dungeon or asking random people for money in map chat.  Not saying the lvl 20ish person expected a free ride, but hell, he could've been anyone.  Guess I wasn't willing to take that risk of wasting my time.

#36 Fizzypop

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:56 AM

I think it's pretty hard to be really objective. We all have our own biases as this thread illustrates quite well. I've raided in several games and for what has felt like forever. I can tell you it's hard to really step back and say "damn I'm being really elitist". I had that moment in one raid where I was just annoyed with my current guild because they were ignoring the best proven strat for that boss. A boss I had downed on a less geared character with another guild just the night before. That was when I realized how I was acting. These people were my friends and had been through a lot with me. They were there for me when I lost my daughter and was finally pregnant again with my twins. They celebrated their birth and here I was treating them like crap. That was when I quit raiding for good and apologized to the whole guild. I find that raiding just brought out the worst in me and I'm sure a lot of other people. It's exactly why I don't instance often anymore because I find that behavior sometimes creeps right back in so now I only do it for fun every once in awhile. Unfortunately, I think it's the nature of the beast when it comes to vertical progression games. You can try to combat it, but it'll sneak it's ugly head in anyways. Like it or not if you are serious about end game instances you'll find yourself being elitist at some point.

#37 Iuris

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:16 AM

I would here propose that we are discussing the issue from a wrong agle.

Elitism at it's core is accepting only the "chosen" into your company. It's the attitude that "If they don't measure up to my standards, I won't play with them." This limiting of your acceptance, of the company you keep, is the core of the term. Also, ss such it is not a binary state of "I'm elitist or I'm not elitist", but rather "How elitist is one". The degree of elitism is the issue.

But the real issue is "How does elitism affect the game". This is the crux of the issue. Some elements of a lithmus test for this that I'd consider are:
-is most content done in a specific way that players find restrictive? Do you by now need to have a specific build to be allowed into a group? Can you still explore the dungeon, or must you take a specific path that avoids monster X?
-is it hard for someone to find a group that wants to do content the non-standard or casual way? Is it hard to find a group that will actually fight Kohler? Is it hard to find a group that would like to try to actually defend Magg by fighting? Is it hard to find a group that will do a full dungeon clear?
-is the speed at which the elite are accomplishing things leaving others behind? Are a casual player's earnings from casual play still allowing him to meaningfully participate in the economy? Is a player with multiple characters disadvantaged to the point where he cannot keep them all geared up enough to keep getting into groups?
-is there a social stigma for not measuring up? Does a casual player listening to the map chat find himself realizing he is considered a scrub? Does wearing non-elite skinned armor mean a player is not respected? Not taken seriously?


At the OP: elitist rejects the lvl 25 in AC because he doesn't measure up to his standards, because he's "not good enough". A non-elitist rejects the lvl 25 in AC because he believes everyone should be treated equal and has to pull his load.

#38 Gileas898

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostThe Condor, on 02 January 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

I think it's just easier to recognize elitists, the people making unreasonable demands so you'll be allowed to join the group.  Of course there's a flip side to that, people can make unreasonable demands on the opposite side of elitism, if that makes sense.  Like expecting a free ride through a dungeon or asking random people for money in map chat.  Not saying the lvl 20ish person expected a free ride, but hell, he could've been anyone.  Guess I wasn't willing to take that risk of wasting my time.

You would have to define unreasonable though. For someone to join an UW group in GW1, they would have to show like 200 Ghastly Stones. Is that unreasonable for someone new to UW? Yes. Is it unreasonable to a lot of players? No. Many people have several times that amount.

The other day I formed a TA run, and three pugs came along. They were guardian / mesmers and we asked them to bring Wall of Reflection and Feedback for Malrona. To them this seemed like a totally unreasonable request. Needless to say we shut down that instance as soon as we realized, because adapting a build as we go along is the very minimum of what we expect from players in a run.

My point is, some people will always have a much lower bar for what is reasonable, and will call anyone enforcing anything above that an elitist, while these so called "elitists" are only doing what's in their best interest.

#39 matsif

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:57 AM

what you did was fine.  Elitism is a problem when you start barring people from the party for things like class, achievement points, etc.  I don't even mind the gear check for fractals as agony resistance because it is a part of that instance that is not represented anywhere else.

If I join a pug (not very often anymore) and someone tells me I can't play my preferred character, or my preferred class sucks, or "if you aren't running [x] build we're not taking you," or similar bs I just leave.  I'd rather wait and play in a group where people understand what each class can bring rather than "if you don't have a warrior or guardian we're kicking you."

#40 Fenice_86

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:02 AM

I'll throw in my 2 cents too,
in OP's example there was nothing wrong, you were not an elitist there, many of us would have done the same thing... in particular i dont find you being an elitist if the game itself says to "me" that "it's not reccomended that i play here since i'm too low lvl" imho!

About the speed run's argument well, it's different, speed runs are meant to be played by well organized and experienced parties... how would u do a "speed" run with a first timer?? To make a good one you need exp'd people, that knows each other builds and can communicate well, a little bit of elitism is needed there imho (and therefore i would do them only with guildies, not pugging).

This doesnt mean it's required for PuGs, standard run, etc etc... they are on a total different plan, as long as someone meets the game requirements, he's not an afk'er and tells me if he's at his first time or not i'm fine with it...
i had a lot of runs with frequent breaks to write "what to do next" and have no problems with that, knowledge is important, i'll give it if someone doesnt have it, that's np!

On a side note:
- sharing the build you are bringing is always helpful too, ur team mates will have an idea of what you are gonna do making the run easier;
- sharing ur knowledge about a dungeon or a quest is always good, you could tell something ppl didnt know or confirm u know what u are doing.

#41 dzanikken

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM

A couple of days ago, I came across a group that wanted a guardian for their last spot above anything else. They were doing an AC explorable run and I was on my level 80 mesmer at that moment. I could just easily have switched to my level 80 guardian (which is my main as of now) but I lingered and tried to bring the inviter around by telling him that any group composition would do the job just as well. Suffice it to say that all my attempts failed. I ended up leaving the group, mainly because I didn't want to have anything to do with such narrow-minded view on this game.

I did notice though that they were all either ranged or spell-casting classes. While I understand that a more tanky class can provide others with an opportunity to better focus on damage dealing, this is not THE way to go. I'd probably end up not being rezed if/when downed or them bitching about what a lousy "tank" I am.

To link my experience with the one the OP shared, this isn't elitism - it's just lack of knowledge of the game and remnants of many a past MMO experiences people have brought along and applied to this game.

#42 Symbiont

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

View Postdzanikken, on 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

A couple of days ago, I came across a group that wanted a guardian for their last spot above anything else. They were doing an AC explorable run and I was on my level 80 mesmer at that moment. I could just easily have switched to my level 80 guardian (which is my main as of now) but I lingered and tried to bring the inviter around by telling him that any group composition would do the job just as well. Suffice it to say that all my attempts failed. I ended up leaving the group, mainly because I didn't want to have anything to do with such narrow-minded view on this game.

I did notice though that they were all either ranged or spell-casting classes. While I understand that a more tanky class can provide others with an opportunity to better focus on damage dealing, this is not THE way to go. I'd probably end up not being rezed if/when downed or them bitching about what a lousy "tank" I am.

To link my experience with the one the OP shared, this isn't elitism - it's just lack of knowledge of the game and remnants of many a past MMO experiences people have brought along and applied to this game.

you're actually the one being immature in that case. they gave you a shot, despite advising bringing a tanky profession since they lacked such in their current player composition. it might not be the best way to go, but a tanky profession is what the group needed at that moment. and in all you failed to tank as a mesmer and wrongly felt too good about yourself by not logging in with your guardian.

#43 Senatic

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

Wanna know what dungeon people are *ishly elitist about? Arah. Very few people is willing to bring you along unless you have extensive experience in the first hand. Now I'm someone who has run A LOT of dungeons and have extensive experience in not just this game but in games in general of creating team builds that have good team synergy as well as organizing said teams in competitive environments. Being busy running through every dungeon in the game in order over the past few months as well as farming 3 different dungeon armors I only turned my eye towards Arah in December. You can imagine the reception I got when I told groups I had not run it before. It took weeks for me to get into the first run of path 3. And do you know what I discovered? It's not even hard. Why anyone would think any semi intelligent person couldn't do path 1-3 is way beyond me. The only thing that required any effort above the average was the Giganticus Lupicus fight, but the guy who brought me along explained the fight before hand and we made it on the first try. Later I brought my guild to run through it, with me being the only one who had done it before it was still a cake walk.

I guess people are just too *ing lazy to help the ones who haven't done it yet to learn. Shame on you, you know who you are.

Edited by Senatic, 02 January 2013 - 11:12 AM.


#44 dzanikken

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

@Symbiont: I never joined them in the run in the first place ... All I did is talk to them, and then left the group before they even started.

Edited by dzanikken, 02 January 2013 - 11:11 AM.


#45 Symbiont

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:21 AM

View Postdzanikken, on 02 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

@Symbiont: I never joined them in the run in the first place ... All I did is talk to them, and then left the group before they even started.

"I'd probably end up not being rezed if/when downed or them bitching about what a lousy "tank" I am."

my bad, i read that quote in haste. still, sometimes a group needs a specific build to do the job. although they are limiting themselves playing that way, since they wanted to PUG they are more likely to get a better group dynamic with a more hybrid composition.

#46 dzanikken

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

That's true. I do suspect they were trying to do path 2 (AC) and needed someone to kite the gravelings -- there are other, simpler ways to do that part, though.

Anyway, when it comes to dungeons, knowledge is power!

#47 Itgotbinned

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

View PostSheepski, on 01 January 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

I think that is the thing that annoys me the most; how people assume that a certain profession HAS to be geared and play a certain way because, of course, that's the only way to play... that's elitism imo.

Id have to totally agree with Sheeps on this one. We both play similar professions yet run very different builds in each of those professions and both perform well in dungeon groups (even when we are both under the influence of various whiskeys!).

Which btw Sheepy makes me want to run some dungeons! :P Ill drop you a message if I manage to log on later ^^

/Binit

#48 Sheepski

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

View PostItgotbinned, on 02 January 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Id have to totally agree with Sheeps on this one. We both play similar professions yet run very different builds in each of those professions and both perform well in dungeon groups (even when we are both under the influence of various whiskeys!).

Which btw Sheepy makes me want to run some dungeons! :P Ill drop you a message if I manage to log on later ^^

/Binit

Yeah Bins good at being punched and smacked around a lot :P

Sure mate, would be fun :)

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#49 Aiyumu

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

For OP's situation, that's not elitist lol. Hell anet claims it to be a 30 dungeon, and monsters are around 30. Unless he's in my guild and we're planning to fully carry the guy, please get out.

For the topic. My line of 'groups that annoy me' would be the groups that require 80s + exotics and anything more. But then again, it's not my group and I can't control what THEY think is required, so I just avoid those groups.

#50 rukh

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

Where is the balance between being an elitist and being objective?

An elitist is someone who maintains higher standards.  Whether those standards are actually the best has nothing to do with being an elitist.  You are comparing apples and oranges.



Do we as a community over use the term "elitist?"

Yes.  An elitist jerk is someone who uses those standards as justification to be rude and condescending.  Many people who had bad experiences with elitist pricks assume all elitists behave like jerks, so the stereotype forms.

#51 Keepy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

Well me myself waited to be 80 and geared to try AC, i have accepted players lvl 65 before only one in a whole 80 team. I think this dungeons are too had to be done by a group of lvl 30's.

#52 matsif

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostKeepy, on 02 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Well me myself waited to be 80 and geared to try AC, i have accepted players lvl 65 before only one in a whole 80 team. I think this dungeons are too had to be done by a group of lvl 30's.

I've done full runs of AC with everyone under level 55 in the party, but everyone knew the dungeon very well and it was a guild group.  AC is still ridiculously easy when it comes to dungeons, in my guild almost everyone has alts they are leveling strictly through running AC on the alt daily.  2 levels and 3-4g a day and a free set of exotic armor and weapons at level 80 is nothing to sneeze at.

#53 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

Maybe it's the server I'm on or I'm just lucky, but I never had such problems. And I did quite a lot dungeon runs since release, many of them with randoms. I never ran into people telling other people what to do in an offensive or "elitist" manner, every advice giving to me or from me was always well recieved and appreciated. I also never had to kick someone, nor was I kicked. Once someone left mid-run, but he had to go and was terribly sorry about it. It was no big deal, we just invited one of my guild members and finished the run. Another time one of the team mates dced and couldn't rejoin since a new version of GW2 was out, so we finished the dungeon (CoE explo mode) with 4 people instead.
I can't even remember not being able to finish a dungeon run, all my teams were friendly and competent, even with the occasional "noob" (which isn't a bad thing, as long as you are willing to learn) everything went smooth. Heck, I even finished Arah explo mode with randoms.
I've never even seen any botters. I really love the community on my server, everyone is friendly and helpful. I'm really surprised how many people seem to have trouble with dungeon groups and getting scammed or flamed or what ever.

#54 Burch84

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostSoki, on 01 January 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

True elitism is impossible to practice with GW2.
It's simply too easy for people to really bother with optimization.
And this is one reason GW2 was game of the year!  No elitist needed or welcome!

Edited by Burch84, 03 January 2013 - 07:35 PM.


#55 Soki

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostBurch84, on 03 January 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

And this is one reason GW2 was game of the year!  No elitist needed or welcome!
No, it was GotY because MMOs have a huge pool of voters and a larger community than single-player games.
GW2 was nowhere near the objective game of the year.

GW2 not being hard enough to require min/maxing is a bad thing. It is an incredibly streamlined, bare-bones, casual-catering game that has a decent combat system - which is underutilized due to how easy the content is.

#56 pfwz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:05 AM

View Postrukh, on 02 January 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Yes.  An elitist jerk is someone who uses those standards as justification to be rude and condescending.  Many people who had bad experiences with elitist pricks assume all elitists behave like jerks, so the stereotype forms.
what you defined as an elitist jerk sums up two people i met today after finishing cof path 1 and 2. both of them were in the same guild and they proceeded to call me the worst warrior they have ever met. something about taking too much damage for a warrior (i am in full zerker gear), and not killing acolytes at the same time. there were two people holding the last boss on cof path 2 (beats me why two people would hold him...) and i killed both acolytes at the same time to pick up the slack. keep in mind they all died within 3 seconds of each other.

that is would i call an elitist too. both also proceeded to ignore me when i refuted their argument. it shows they had the mentality of a kid if they couldn't make a counterargument and put me on ignore right away.

#57 chefwaffle

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:09 AM

View Postjthamind, on 01 January 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

as far as the "expect everybody to contribute and not be dead weight"....i'd actually say that's slightly elitist, because that assumes that everybody is equal and everybody should automatically be able to play at the same level.
Imo, that's not even slightly elitist at all. When a group is started, it's a default that everyone should do their part no matter how low their level and gear is. Not saying that they should be on par with the high levels, but at least they should do their role like run back right away, don't wait for a res when the party's obviously getting wipe, and res the party whenever you can. I think what the OP meant by dead weight is someone who just stand in the back and let all the others do the work.

Edited by chefwaffle, 06 January 2013 - 04:10 AM.


#58 leongrado

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostThe Condor, on 01 January 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

snip

Def would not consider that elitist. It's just common sense. A level 20 will not survive in a level 30 dungeon.

#59 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:28 AM

Yep, to answer the OP, what he did wasn't at all elitism. Just kicked a player not answering, pretending to join something beyond his appropriate expected minimum level as required. Regardless of his personal skills, his 8 80s, his uber pro skills blahblah that lv25 shouldn't join at all. On that dungeon, with that level, was an useless bag.

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 06 January 2013 - 07:30 AM.


#60 chuckles79

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:03 AM

In the case of the OP, it wasn't elitist at all.  Dungeons are not simple content, even with lvl80 characters in full gear.  The fact that they were willing to go with two people in their 30's show no elitism to me.
Elitism is when you have people asking how you are spec'd and so on.





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