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glass cannon - why not?


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#1 radamant011

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

I am a lvl 80 war in full exotics and i go with full berserker gear, berserk trinkets and ruby jewels. Traited 10/30/0/0/30 and the truth is - i go down a little bit more often then i would if i were more tanky, but i compensate that with insane damage output. Now, i know how to play, i know how to move, dodge big hits, stay alive as much as possible and been doing dungeons for few months this way. Been doing this with guildies and with pugs. Worked both ways. I started this setup just for fun, not expecting much, thought i`ll be dead weight and that the rest of the team would spend half their time getting me up, but that didnt happen and from what was intended as a joke i came to my (now standard) dungeon setup. So, with a little practice (getting to know the bosses) this can be very effective and fun setup for warr. I got this idea from strife`s post, modified it somewhat and am very satisfied with it. Well that is warrior after all - tons of damage and i love it! Here`sthe build: http://www.guildhead...z7kGf70V7ofD70m

#2 Sinic

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

Glass cannons are actually encouraged in regular dungeons where waypoint zerging still exists. In Fractals however, this isn't possible. There's only so much you can dodge & avoid, so you'll never get past tier 2 because you'll be constantly downing/dying = teammates risking their lives to revive you = them dying eventually = the whole group wiping & having to start over = broken gear/frustration/time wasted = them leaving or kicking you from the group. The reason why many people value Fractals over the old dungeons is simply because loot begins to get better in tiers 3+.

Edited by Sinic, 01 January 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#3 radamant011

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:27 AM

True Sinic, this is not the thing you`ll want in higher lvl fractals, but works wonders in normal dungeons. Also, forgot to mention it, omnomberry ghosts are very much welcome with this kind of setup

#4 SkearKr0w

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

I love glass cannons. It's my preferred playstyle because I've got friends that play support. I like to utilize wep swapping using only HB on greatswords, swapping to dual axes everytime HB is down. I love chaining Frenzy+HB+Whirling Axe. Easy 50k+ dmg in a 4 sec span.

Edited by SkearKr0w, 01 January 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#5 Buran_Grey

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

Didn't work for me. I'm currently using a Warrior with zerk armor and weapons (mainly GS and Rifle) and knight accesories but I think that overall is better to use knight armor and saving the crit damage enhancemements for the accesories. I'm still doing dungeons with the berserker gear but I feel myself weak sometimes and I figure that when I die I'm not supporting my team in neither dungeons or WvW so the logic conclusion is to focus a bit more in the thoughness.

   One question: is Last Chance a valuable tool? Only procs one time each 90 seconds at most wich seems an eternity -specially at dungeons-. If you aren't using a might stacking build then probably a sigil of speed in the gs will be a better option than wasting a trait in Last Chance.

#6 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

View PostSinic, on 01 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

In Fractals however, this isn't possible. There's only so much you can dodge & avoid, so you'll never get past tier 2 because you'll be constantly downing/dying = teammates risking their lives to revive you = them dying eventually = the whole group wiping & having to start over = broken gear/frustration/time wasted = them leaving or kicking you from the group.
Tell me how that vitaltiy/toughness spec works out for you past level 40. You keep tanking brother when eventually they will one-shot you. You should be running glass-cannon everywhere and especially in fractals. You will not continue to progress unless you can create a certain threshold of damage in a short space of time and gearing no damage doesn't make that possible.

#7 supacc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

well the common saying is, "you can't do dps if you're dead", but if you are still surviving while giving a constant damage output, more power to you.  it is only an annoyance when you start hindering your team by constantly being downed because you were too greedy to give up a few points in offense.  having those few little things in defense gives much more breathing room for mistakes/over-extensions, which might save your team from snowballing into a wipe.

and a few side notes for your build:  FGJ gives way more (for your team and yourself) than signet of fury.  and maybe swap out mending for surge since you already have SIO.  and i would DEFINITELY swap out last chance+deep strikes for forceful greatsword+rending strikes if you are really going for a DPS build.

Edited by supacc, 01 January 2013 - 02:38 PM.


#8 Brand

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

Ok, so I'm super lazy. I've already reposted this once on another thread and I think I will post it here as well. It has all of my arguments outlined in it and is just easier for me. If you want to find the full context, go here.

View PostBrand, on 21 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I won't say you're wrong on the basic philosophy here, but there are a few things I'd like to point out.

View PostXunlai Agent, on 20 December 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

Shout warriors are kinda cute but not very effective and frankly Guardians do it better!
You're really dismissing many builds without much thought here.

First of all, no Guardians do not; Guardians are better at Boons, not flat out healing. I'm fairly confident when I say that Guardians cannot match up to a potential 50% group health healed every 20 seconds (Full support shout Warrior). Guardians do however pack things like Regen, Protection, Retaliation, etc. They are the masters of defensive boons, this does not make them the masters of tanking. In my honest opinion, a shout support Warrior is a much better tank than a Guardian, but Guardians do provide reliable boon support that is unmatched.

Secondly, not all "Shout Warriors" are focused on healing, Sonic Boon is a perfect example of such. With the build, you can provide good support and great dps, as well as be survivable.

View PostXunlai Agent, on 20 December 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

I felt it gave my a decent mix of defensive traits while at the same time affording my quite considerable offense, even then my build was traited more aggressively than 80% of the builds in this subforum.
This is incredibly untrue, at least for current builds. More like 80% of them are more offensive than that. There aren't a lot of full tank builds here, and there certainly are even less that put 50 points into being a tank/supporter without actually being a tank/supporter.

View PostXunlai Agent, on 20 December 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

My genuine advice would be to run a glass cannon spec and learn to survive with that setup because it will make you a much better player.
This is relative; many players have difficulty with this type of build and will only learn to eat dirt. Granted, there are many players that can use this type of build and excel, but saying it will without a doubt make you a better player is untrue.

I do agree that being a glass cannon can improve your ability to some extent. However, the ability and damage come at a cost; you need to be more mobile, attentive, and have great reflexes. The type of build you describe basically makes you a melee Thief with more damage and less mobility/evasion. A lot of people have trouble with the melee aspect of a Thief even when he can jump all over the place. Many more people have trouble using a Warrior in this way.

With all that said, I still genuinely think that glass cannon builds aren't that great. Whether you can dodge like a maniac and still pump out great damage or not, it's likely that your teammates can't. Just because you are ace player doesn't mean your teammates are too, and you should be trying to support them. Warriors have a ridiculous amount of supportive tools at their disposal and supporting your teammates not only leads to better group synergy and teamwork, but better group damage as well.

Most people don't dislike glass cannon builds because they are ineffective; they dislike them because they are selfish. It's much more about a teamwork/social effort than your own personal dps. Let me ask you:
  • If you were doing great damage and able to dodge anything the boss throws at you, and you had a downed teammate, would you go over and rez him? How many people do you think answer that with a yes?
A glass cannon build encourages solo play and working alone; If you stopped dodging to rez a guy, you might get killed yourself. It gives you a very selfish outlook on the game and working in your team. We all know too well that there is no "I" in "team", and the "I" in "win" is cancelled out by the "I" in "die".

Again, a glass cannon build is effective, and you can certainly become a great player by using one. This game, however, is about being a great team, not a great player. That's why glass cannon builds are mostly a bad idea. It's better to sacrifice some of your damage for an easier playstyle that helps your team. You'll be more suited to a team environment, and more inclined to actually play as a team.
I was told this argument had a lot of strawmen and etc in it, but the person who said that never made a follow up reply in order to counter-argue. So, in my opinion, it's still a great argument.

#9 radamant011

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

This build is pretty much open for alterations, so whatever works for you is ok. I like to have two condi removers, saved me so many times. I like last chance to maul the boss even faster and i don`t mind if it kicks in at 90 sec. Signet of fury could be switched for fgj, true that. It all depends on play style, even this is the case - i am too focused on fighting that i don`t want to split my focus to see if the skill has recharged, sig of rage is enough for me to look at, don`t need fgj too, but fgj instead of sig of fury is better option party wise.

#10 Brand

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

View Postsupacc, on 01 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

i would DEFINITELY swap out last chance
I think you mean Furious Reaction here? Just asking for clarity, I don't mean to pick.

#11 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

View PostBrand, on 01 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

I was told this argument had a lot of strawmen and etc in it, but the person who said that never made a follow up reply in order to counter-argue. So, in my opinion, it's still a great argument.
It's when the janitor gets on the podium at quantum physics conference unannounced to the dismay of the participants and gives his opinion on quantum theory. Do you take the time to rebut the arguments? I prefer if most warriors sip your kool aid because it allows those that can play to stand out. Show me a video past fractals level 40 where people are using shout warriors and seeing the same success as thoe harnessing glass cannons. It just cannot be taken seriously. At some point you will be one-shotted and your mediocre healing shouts are not going to matter to anybody. Nobody that plays fractals at a high level (45+) is progressing by tanking damage or running shout warriors. I don't get paid to share wisdom on here so I take what I think is good and leave it at that. Once you can run fractals with glass cannons then you can run anything else in PvE with glass cannons, regard it as a litmus test...

#12 Brand

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostXunlai Agent, on 01 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

It's when the janitor gets on the podium at quantum physics conference unannounced to the dismay of the participants and gives his opinion on quantum theory. Do you take the time to rebut the arguments? I prefer if most warriors sip your kool aid because it allows those that can play to stand out. Show me a video past fractals level 40 where people are using shout warriors and seeing the same success as thoe harnessing glass cannons. It just cannot be taken seriously. At some point you will be one-shotted and your mediocre healing shouts are not going to matter to anybody. Nobody that plays fractals at a high level (45+) is progressing by tanking damage or running shout warriors. I don't get paid to share wisdom on here so I take what I think is good and leave it at that. Once you can run fractals with glass cannons then you can run anything else in PvE with glass cannons, regard it as a litmus test...
That's cool and all, but you did say you were going to reply to me. You should take the time to refute any arguments that have a sound basis of observation. I did not say "Glass cannon s are bad because they are stupid" and walk away; I gave clear and not so easily dismissed arguments. When you don't participate in serious discussion, whether you are right or not, it reflects poorly upon you. Even if you are right, saying "No you" and dismissing the argument is not the proper way to handle it. Why do you think you need to be paid to discuss a concept that you back completely? I'm not trying to make this personal or anything, I'm just saying.

You say that shout heals are mediocre and all that, but we honestly do burst healing better than Guardians. So how is it that Guardians survive at all in higher level fractals when arguably their best builds are support/tank builds? Your posts seem to have a lot of conjecture and falsities, and when asked to back them up you tell me that it isn't your job.

#13 Strife025

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:04 PM

View PostSinic, on 01 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Glass cannons are actually encouraged in regular dungeons where waypoint zerging still exists. In Fractals however, this isn't possible. There's only so much you can dodge & avoid, so you'll never get past tier 2 because you'll be constantly downing/dying = teammates risking their lives to revive you = them dying eventually = the whole group wiping & having to start over = broken gear/frustration/time wasted = them leaving or kicking you from the group. The reason why many people value Fractals over the old dungeons is simply because loot begins to get better in tiers 3+.

Not true. I'm at 37 on my guardian and all the wars I run with are still berserker, when you're going to get downed in a few hits anyways damage to kill faster is better.

My warrior is like 23 and I haven't changed a thing and have no trouble.

Most of the high level fractals involved killing fast and proper positioning and skill use to mitigate damage, not stack toughness. Things like using LoS on dredge and ascalon fractals, projectile reflection and proper movement for harpy and shaman, strategy and teamwork for cliffside with some LoS and last 2 seals. Best survivability is the ability for your group to burst damage while using blind, knockdowns, reflection, etc., not to sit there and kill slow with a ton of useless survivability stats that make you take twice as long to kill stuff and get downed from 5k auto attacks anyways.

#14 dawdler

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

Most high level fractals probably include good players as well. Its not like you join a level 37 fractal and say "guys I have no idea how to do this fractal boss, tactics please!".

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when they nerf Omnomberry pies, because its probably the only other thing keeping the glass cannons alive, lol.




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