42 replies to this topic

[RushV]

Hey guys,

I am posting this guide here for everyone to read.

You can find the guide at the following link:

http://guildwars.inc...oother-dungeons

If you have any questions, you can post them here and I will do my best to answer them!

Thank you!

-Rush

[GuanglaiKangyi]

If you are running a guardian simply to spam Empower and Symbol of Faith on cooldown, you're doing something wrong.  Even with Exaltation the damage radius on those moves isn't nearly as good as you think it is, unless it's an easy boss you can just clump on, in which case you don't need a healer.  Empower is a good move, sure, but it's because of the might stacking, not the paltry 1-2k heal at the end.  Moreover, if you really want healing and protection, elementalist is way better.  An elementalist can keep up protection and regeneration (x2) across the entire group, not just within melee range of the target, and not even give up condition-based DPS doing so.

As for being "durable" DPS, you are better off going full berserker gear and using traits to supplement your defenses, if necessary.  Going full soldier's gear is a massive DPS loss for relatively little gain, while an engineer, for example, can go full berserker/rampager/rabid gear and be even tankier than one in soldier's, just by taking Backpack Regenerator and/or Kit Refinement.

Ideally, the best group is 5 characters in Berserker's gear with at least some defensive options in traits or skills, for emergencies.

[RushV]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 01 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

If you are running a guardian simply to spam Empower and Symbol of Faith on cooldown, you're doing something wrong.  Even with Exaltation the damage radius on those moves isn't nearly as good as you think it is, unless it's an easy boss you can just clump on, in which case you don't need a healer.  Empower is a good move, sure, but it's because of the might stacking, not the paltry 1-2k heal at the end.  Moreover, if you really want healing and protection, elementalist is way better.  An elementalist can keep up protection and regeneration (x2) across the entire group, not just within melee range of the target, and not even give up condition-based DPS doing so.

As for being "durable" DPS, you are better off going full berserker gear and using traits to supplement your defenses, if necessary.  Going full soldier's gear is a massive DPS loss for relatively little gain, while an engineer, for example, can go full berserker/rampager/rabid gear and be even tankier than one in soldier's, just by taking Backpack Regenerator and/or Kit Refinement.

Ideally, the best group is 5 characters in Berserker's gear with at least some defensive options in traits or skills, for emergencies.

You are running with a bad guardian if his empower only heals for 2k. The fluffer I run with heals for 4k on his empower, followed up with another 4k from 2 dodge heals that heal for 2k a piece. Elementalist support is nice, but guardian can provide massive healing, protection, might, aegis, and regen. Empower is good because of the heal AND the might. You get a 4k heal, and then 12 stacks of might.

That is durable dps. You only need gear in toughness or traits in toughness. Not both. I run beserker armor, and then valor and radiance for my trait lines on my guardian. He has a 79% crit chance, with 80% increase in crit damage. Combine him the fluffer and he pumps out insane damage with extra survivability. The armor stats I provided in the guide were just to show the major damage and toughness names.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

RushV, on 01 January 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

You are running with a bad guardian if his empower only heals for 2k. The fluffer I run with heals for 4k on his empower, followed up with another 4k from 2 dodge heals that heal for 2k a piece. Elementalist support is nice, but guardian can provide massive healing, protection, might, aegis, and regen. Empower is good because of the heal AND the might. You get a 4k heal, and then 12 stacks of might.

That is durable dps. You only need gear in toughness or traits in toughness. Not both. I run beserker armor, and then valor and radiance for my trait lines on my guardian. He has a 79% crit chance, with 80% increase in crit damage. Combine him the fluffer and he pumps out insane damage with extra survivability. The armor stats I provided in the guide were just to show the major damage and toughness names.

Considering the elementalist does all those things you listed without even sacrificing DPS, and better at that, it's still superior.  Cleric guardian is the biggest waste of potential ever.  You are taking the second-highest DPS class in the game and turning it into a shitty healer.  Might as well put a thief in Cleric's gear so he can spam Shadow Refuge.

Also note that guardian doesn't even need to go full useless to be a "support".  My guardian runs in full zerker with a greatsword and scepter and I stack plenty of boons on my party just by virtue of being a guardian.  It's pretty widely accepted that healing power is a crap stat, even for elementalists, who benefit from it way more than Guardians do.

Also I just read your thing again.  Dual axe rifle warrior what.  And wtf is a "might on crit" guardian.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 01 January 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[RushV]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 01 January 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Considering the elementalist does all those things you listed without even sacrificing DPS, and better at that, it's still superior.  Cleric guardian is the biggest waste of potential ever.  You are taking the second-highest DPS class in the game and turning it into a shitty healer.  Might as well put a thief in Cleric's gear so he can spam Shadow Refuge.

Also note that guardian doesn't even need to go full useless to be a "support".  My guardian runs in full zerker with a greatsword and scepter and I stack plenty of boons on my party just by virtue of being a guardian.  It's pretty widely accepted that healing power is a crap stat, even for elementalists, who benefit from it way more than Guardians do.

Also I just read your thing again.  Dual axe rifle warrior what.  And wtf is a "might on crit" guardian.

With Virtues traited and altruism runes in the armor, the guardian boons last a lot longer than elementalist. Guardian using staff with that gear is nowhere near shitty heals. It's not about that particular player dealing as much damage as possible, it's about increasing the damage of the team AND keeping all the boons up permanently. That is all without the hassle of switching between attunements too. I am not saying that elementalist support is bad, I am just saying your statement about guardian support is wrong.

Dual axe/Rifle warrior is just what that person plays all the time. Spamming burst damage by charging adrenaline with axes, and following it up with either eviscerate or kill shot. Takes about 2-3 to charge up a full bar with the adrenaline traits.

Might on crit guardian is a sword/torch scepter/focus guardian with Radiance/Valor traited and knights armor, with beserker trinkets and weapons. 79% crit chance and 80% crit damage, along with a sigil of strength in the sword. Able to hold around 7-8 stacks of might alone, and around 22-25 when with a full party that includes a support guardian. Burst damage from Zealot's Defense, Zealot's Flame, and Cleansing Flame does around 18-24k damage, depending on your luck with crits (which is really easy to do with 79% alone, not to mention a fury buff)

[GuanglaiKangyi]

You realize Empowering Might has an internal CD of about 1s?  There's no need to get your crit rate all the way up to 79% if you can maintain the same 5-6 stacks with 40%.  My greatsword guardian in full berserker gear can maintain 10 stacks easily, has way more survivability since full points in Valor and Honor, and puts out more DPS to boost.  He can also switch between pretty much any weapon without a substantial DPS loss, due to the way Honor traits work.  Honestly it sounds like you are trying to use PvP builds for dungeons, which is silly, because burst doesn't matter at all in dungeons.  High sustained DPS and good AOE is much more important.

Also, I challenge you to name even one encounter where a heal-specced guardian is even useful over an elementalist.  And don't try to say the staff stacks might, an offensive guardian dealing full damage and stacking Empowering Might deals way more damage overall than a "support" one dealing no damage and using Empower.  And in case you forgot, any guardian can use Empower, you don't even need to be geared for it.

[RushV]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 01 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

You realize Empowering Might has an internal CD of about 1s?  There's no need to get your crit rate all the way up to 79% if you can maintain the same 5-6 stacks with 40%.  My greatsword guardian in full berserker gear can maintain 10 stacks easily, has way more survivability since full points in Valor and Honor, and puts out more DPS to boost.  He can also switch between pretty much any weapon without a substantial DPS loss, due to the way Honor traits work.  Honestly it sounds like you are trying to use PvP builds for dungeons, which is silly, because burst doesn't matter at all in dungeons.  High sustained DPS and good AOE is much more important.

Also, I challenge you to name even one encounter where a heal-specced guardian is even useful over an elementalist.  And don't try to say the staff stacks might, an offensive guardian dealing full damage and stacking Empowering Might deals way more damage overall than a "support" one dealing no damage and using Empower.  And in case you forgot, any guardian can use Empower, you don't even need to be geared for it.

Show me 40% that can maintain 10 stacks of might in a boss fight. Anyone can get 10 stacks with 40 if you are hitting 5 mobs at once. Myy guardian build is very durable in fights, condi removal, stun breaker, high crit chance, constant might. All of it makes for a high dps build that can survive all encounters. High DPS can be achieved in many ways.

And you have not grasped what I have said before. All you want to do is argue for no reason. I am saying that Guardian support is good. You show me a path that you insist needs an elementalist, and I can take a guardian support in there and do it with no problem. I'll even film it for you.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

RushV, on 01 January 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Show me 40% that can maintain 10 stacks of might in a boss fight. Anyone can get 10 stacks with 40 if you are hitting 5 mobs at once. Myy guardian build is very durable in fights, condi removal, stun breaker, high crit chance, constant might. All of it makes for a high dps build that can survive all encounters. High DPS can be achieved in many ways.

And you have not grasped what I have said before. All you want to do is argue for no reason. I am saying that Guardian support is good. You show me a path that you insist needs an elementalist, and I can take a guardian support in there and do it with no problem. I'll even film it for you.

Oh look.  Might.

And before you try to justify it, those consumables are MF and a Potion of Farming COF Path 1.

And yeah, go ahead and show me how useful your support guardian against Lupicus, or any high fractals boss that isn't lolbabies easy.  You can even film for me.

[matsif]

after reading the article, this just seems like a forced 5 man team for guardians and warriors, when many of these builds you have created for guardians (and warriors) can be replaced with other classes and the build would still perform at a similar, if not better dps.

GuanglaiKangyi, on 01 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Honestly it sounds like you are trying to use PvP builds for dungeons, which is silly, because burst doesn't matter at all in dungeons.  High sustained DPS and good AOE is much more important.

this really gets my feelings in a nutshell as well.  Trying to build around support characters that do nothing for the party assuming everyone knows how to dodge and position themselves is a waste of a body.  That support guardian can do nothing but heal, and good players can dodge enough to negate much of the need for that player.

[Al Shamari]

Great, more Warrior/Guardian elitism in the works.

[RushV]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 02 January 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh look.  Might.

And before you try to justify it, those consumables are MF and a Potion of Farming COF Path 1.

And yeah, go ahead and show me how useful your support guardian against Lupicus, or any high fractals boss that isn't lolbabies easy.  You can even film for me.

Will do, I will be doing an arah later tonight, I'll make sure to film it for you. Greatsword though on the might. I can hold 10 without greatsword with my 79%, and I put out more damage than you too. Touche though, you are holding the 10.

matsif, on 02 January 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

after reading the article, this just seems like a forced 5 man team for guardians and warriors, when many of these builds you have created for guardians (and warriors) can be replaced with other classes and the build would still perform at a similar, if not better dps.




this really gets my feelings in a nutshell as well.  Trying to build around support characters that do nothing for the party assuming everyone knows how to dodge and position themselves is a waste of a body.  That support guardian can do nothing but heal, and good players can dodge enough to negate much of the need for that player.

You are reading it wrong. The only ones I "force" are support guardian or warrior. Everything else is left up to whatever profession you play. Take toughness in either traits or armor, it's up to you.

Edited by RushV, 02 January 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

RushV, on 02 January 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

Will do, I will be doing an arah later tonight, I'll make sure to film it for you. Greatsword though on the might. I can hold 10 without greatsword with my 79%, and I put out more damage than you too. Touche though, you are holding the 10.

You can get as many stacks of might as me with only twice the crit rate?  I don't believe that.  I'LL NEED VIDEO EVIDENCE.

[RushV]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 02 January 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

You can get as many stacks of might as me with only twice the crit rate?  I don't believe that.  I'LL NEED VIDEO EVIDENCE.

Yep, it's this awesome trait line call Radiance, and when you put 30 points into you can take this awesome trait called Right Handed Strength. +15% to my crit chance. You should try it, you can drop the greatsword for some higher single target damage. You will have to give up the might on the third greatsword chain though, which isn't hard to do. Sword wave on the sword can potentially give 3 might stacks on 1 mob.

Oh man, don't ask for the video evidence though, I can't prove anything I am saying because I am a writer that doesn't prepare for that.

[matsif]

RushV, on 02 January 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

You are reading it wrong. The only ones I "force" are support guardian or warrior. Everything else is left up to whatever profession you play. Take toughness in either traits or armor, it's up to you.

that doesn't change the fact that 5 decent dps players who know how to dodge will outperform your 4 man team with a full support player doing nothing but healing.  

don't get me wrong, its a nice idea to run with your friends or whatever.  but to say its the "smoothest" way to run a dungeon just simply isn't true outside of pugs.  And all you will cause is warrior/guardian elitism and people barring other classes from groups.

[evyo]

RushV, on 02 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Yep, it's this awesome trait line call Radiance, and when you put 30 points into you can take this awesome trait called Right Handed Strength. +15% to my crit chance. You should try it, you can drop the greatsword for some higher single target damage. You will have to give up the might on the third greatsword chain though, which isn't hard to do. Sword wave on the sword can potentially give 3 might stacks on 1 mob.

Oh man, don't ask for the video evidence though, I can't prove anything I am saying because I am a writer that doesn't prepare for that.

EM still has an internal CD of 1 second - how could you possibly get 3 might stacks from one attack?

[RushV]

matsif, on 02 January 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

that doesn't change the fact that 5 decent dps players who know how to dodge will outperform your 4 man team with a full support player doing nothing but healing.  

don't get me wrong, its a nice idea to run with your friends or whatever.  but to say its the "smoothest" way to run a dungeon just simply isn't true outside of pugs.  And all you will cause is warrior/guardian elitism and people barring other classes from groups.

You come run with us and see for yourself. I can assure you that no one out performs my team.

evyo, on 02 January 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

EM still has an internal CD of 1 second - how could you possibly get 3 might stacks from one attack?

Sigil of strength on my sword.

Edited by RushV, 02 January 2013 - 03:12 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

RushV, on 02 January 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

You come run with us and see for yourself. I can assure you that no one out performs my team.



Sigil of strength on my sword.

That's got an internal CD too lol.

[Wifflebottom]

Al Shamari, on 02 January 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Great, more Warrior/Guardian elitism in the works.

Yeah it's getting ridiculous, I've gotten turned down for being a mesmer -.- apparently they only wanted 3 warriors and 2 guards

[paradiselight]

If you're running with a dedicated team, an ele will outperform your support guardian in terms of might stacking by a mile. You can max out 25 stacks of might easy utilizing fire field + blast finishers (just give a little thought to your team composition and you'll have plenty of that), not to mention the might stacks come naturally throughout the course of the fight without requiring channeling or a deep sacrifice in DPS.

Edited by paradiselight, 02 January 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[Trei]

Wifflebottom, on 02 January 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Yeah it's getting ridiculous, I've gotten turned down for being a mesmer -.- apparently they only wanted 3 warriors and 2 guards

Start a group yourself.

[Keepy]

I love your idea, i love your guide and i know it will be easier to play with a team like this but it just wont happen to me snif snif...
everyone wants to be a hero not a supporter

<--- im a good team player

[Minion]

Best dungeon team is thief, necro, guardian*2, warrior. Altruistic guardians, backstab crit thieves, shouting war and condition spamming necro with Epidemic. Really, the main line of defence is the necro.

That makes more sense than your article atleast.

[Fenice_86]

Hope that these kind of topics are watched by game's devs so they know where to put efforts on skill balance.

[dawdler]

Fenice_86, on 02 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Hope that these kind of topics are watched by game's devs so they know where to put efforts on skill balance.

What? That's highly unlikely. I mean I have never heard of this Warrior/Guardian superiority in PvE until now, how could the devs possibly be aware of it, or give it any thought?! Its going to take months for them to react to this new and scary discovery that having a team of Warriors and Guardians is OP!!!!!

[Fenice_86]

the fact that you didnt know about it doesnt make it less real... the majority knows that those 2 classes got many advantages/are way easier and effective with less efforts over the rest...

[dawdler]

Your sarcasm detector is broken. Possibly by a Warrior smashing it.

[Fenice_86]

dawdler, on 02 January 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Your sarcasm detector is broken. Possibly by a Warrior smashing it.

XD
Ty for fixing it lol

[Geralt Romalion]

As someone with a guardian main, just my ideas:

I also ran full clerics.
The first few days of the game.
And I found it to be horrible and a total waste of stats.
Healing power still scales horrible, and the amount of crit/precision/power you have to sacrifice isn't worth it.
Guild Wars 2 is not meant to be played with a healer.
If your party has to realy on your guardian's heals in such a way that he has to sacrifice loads of damage and crits, just so he can get 4k heals to keep them alive, with all respect, then your party isn't very good.
Dodging at the right times does more for the health bars of your team members then your full cleric gear powered heals.
Missed a dodge?
We have our heal skill for that, every class can keep themselves up.
They are low and heal is still on CD?
We have virtue of resolve for that, so our party member can savely survive the few seconds they need for their heal to come off CD.
They still die/downed?
Then even 4k heals would not have saved them.
Bring waterfields and combo finishers for even more overkill heals if you need them.
But going the 100% cleric route really is a waste, and simply promotes bad play.
This game is more about preventing damage then it is about eating it and then healing it off.

Also, I question your knowledge about this game, since you run a dual axe warrior, while axe off-hand is pretty much regarded as one of the worst off-hand weapons a warrior can bring ( low DPS, and zero supportive options ).
Rifle is up for debate, but in general longbow does a better job if you need a ranged option.

Edited by Geralt Romalion, 02 January 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[beadnbutter32]

That's one seriously broken game design.  When a whole line of statistics (healing/vitality) and related gear and skills are considered 'bad play' it has terrible game design written in all caps all over it.

[Nemhy]

What's sad is that I've had my most fastest and smoothest dungeon runs with 2 guardians and 3 warriors...  It was just complete demolition.  Makes me sad face