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So it seems a lot of naughty boys and girls got one last gift from Santa this Christmas


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#1 JONO51

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

Early on during Wintersday one of the jewellers recipes could be exploited to gain a lot of ectos through salvaging (craft, regain snowflake and potentially several ecto & repeat). It was pretty widespread for the short time you could do it, the method even being posted on the official forums. As you can see from the thread, it was stopped fairly quickly, but not before many people could use it. Well now it seems ANet have one last gift for these people, in the form of mass bans. What makes it perhaps worse is that when asked if it was an exploit, ANet didn't answer.

What's everyones opinion on this? Is a ban a fair punishment for those who did this, or should it instead be some kind of a rollback? Are you now worried about finding new ways to make quick cash after an update? This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. Early on, the Chilli Pepper Popper and Karma weapon exploiters were banned but then unbanned with the requirement of deleting their ill-gotten gains. Should a similar thing be done here?

#2 turbo234

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

Seriously? If it breaks the game don't do it. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp people.

#3 RaoulDukeHST

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

they should focus on the trading post exploiters,who make thousands of gold just because they have thousands of gold.A person can buy 100 $ worth of gold from gold farmers and double that money in an hour,arenanet doesn't do anything about these people who are creating artificial prices,they ban some poor sucker who tried to get 50 ectos to craft some backpiece.

#4 Gilles VI

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:36 AM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

they should focus on the trading post exploiters,who make thousands of gold just because they have thousands of gold.A person can buy 100 $ worth of gold from gold farmers and double that money in an hour,arenanet doesn't do anything about these people who are creating artificial prices,they ban some poor sucker who tried to get 50 ectos to craft some backpiece.

And how would they need to fix it?

It's a free market, if anything it's the fault of the brainless people who do exactly what the smart people anticipate.

#5 turbo234

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

they should focus on the trading post exploiters,who make thousands of gold just because they have thousands of gold.A person can buy 100 $ worth of gold from gold farmers and double that money in an hour,arenanet doesn't do anything about these people who are creating artificial prices,they ban some poor sucker who tried to get 50 ectos to craft some backpiece.

Did..did you just complain about playing the market?

#6 psihopata

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

Yup. Ban till they delete all ectos they made, i have JC, did read post about it before they patched it, and i didt use it cose didnt look legitimat to me...  

Ok maybe i am to brutal, ban onli thos who made alot ectos this way, no need to ban thos who got few just by discovering bug and did appropriate report.

Edited by psihopata, 03 January 2013 - 10:43 AM.


#7 Thunderhead

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

And how would they need to fix it?

It's a free market, if anything it's the fault of the brainless people who do exactly what the smart people anticipate.
On one hand I understand the logic behind this and agree with you, the rich players are not doing something wrong with playing smart. However, in its current condition, it's pretty hard for a newcomer to enter the TP and stay relevant. Put those kind of bugs in and the economy is easily destabilised. I know what they are going for here, a player driven economy, but I'm not sure I have confidense in the players :P

#8 RaoulDukeHST

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:47 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

And how would they need to fix it?

It's a free market, if anything it's the fault of the brainless people who do exactly what the smart people anticipate.
"smart people"?Where is the smart in what they do?I buy all the existing items,then i put out bogus offers to buy,then i dump the crap and people buy it,no brain surgery skill required,to me people that mess with the tp and people that use exploits are on par,they are all cheating.

#9 Gilles VI

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

"smart people"?Where is the smart in what they do?I buy all the existing items,then i put out bogus offers to buy,then i dump the crap and people buy it,no brain surgery skill required,to me people that mess with the tp and people that use exploits are on par,they are all cheating.

Exactly as you say, it's the fault of the "dumb" players who outbid the fake offers that the outbuyer places.
Lolol I think someone is mad because he's poor here..

Seriously how can you compare people who cheat and people who use a trading mechanism to their advantage, that needs some serious butthurt..

#10 Swoopeh

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

To quote that Anet post:

Quote

I’ve seen the numbers, and the damage to the economy could have been substantial, if the exploit wasn’t closed down and if these people were allowed to use their ill-gotten gains. People whose accounts were terminated were the worst offenders. I’m talking a lot of ill gotten gains, and a significant risk to the economy.
Any time you take one thing and can make two, and then four, and then sixteen… ya gotta know that’s just wrong. (I won’t quibble on the odds, overall, doubling was not outside the rules of probability.) And to perform that action hundreds and hundreds of times? That’s call “exploitation,” my friend, and that’s against the User Agreement, the Rules of Conduct, and all that is holy.
I know the OP will disagree. But we’ve been more than kind, in the past, and everyone needs to own up to his/her errors and recognize: We all are part of the game economy, and those who exploit it are hurting the rest of us.
Exploit closed.
Worst offenders terminated.
That’s what has to happen to make things right for all of us.

The bold part is important I think to prevent taking this out of context. If they banned everyone who made a few ectos off this then I would agree that that's harsh. However they only banned those who made significant use of the exploit and made a profit thus messing with the economy.

I wouldn't have perma-banned them though, they really need a better penalty system. First strike is a warning for those who think they're doing no harm, second strike to show they mean business and the third strike you're out.

Edited by Swoopeh, 03 January 2013 - 10:51 AM.


#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:55 AM

A.Net decision makes sense because they are a business and their goal is to make the best product that they can sell. And if this clashes with making the best game that they can, then the best product naturally comes out on top.

The problem is that those of us that aren't getting a cut of the profits only have the game rather than the product. A game, that is not amazing because A.Net is putting their profit ahead of the game.


Of course, I am not saying that there's anything wrong with what A.Net is doing. The problem is rather our view on A.Net - there's absolutely nothing wrong with A.Net being only interested in their best interests. But it's absolutely insane that we don't do the same. (By "same" I of course, mean looking out for one's OWN interests. For instance, throwing money at the cash shop to negate the insanely shitty loot system the game has, is completely mental.)


EDIT:
Also:
http://www.reddit.co..._hard_evidence/
(Since the point is easy to miss - it's about the gains folks made COMPARED to what can be made though other means.)

#12 RaoulDukeHST

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Exactly as you say, it's the fault of the "dumb" players who outbid the fake offers that the outbuyer places.
Lolol I think someone is mad because he's poor here..

Seriously how can you compare people who cheat and people who use a trading mechanism to their advantage, that needs some serious butthurt..
i have 445 gold.and about 1k worth of weapons.I did not use any exploit or tp manipulation,i just played a lot.You do realize there are legendary weapons that can be bought for gold right?So a "dumb" player as you say,grinds mats,map completion,WvW badges 1.5 mil karma,a few hundreds of gold,about 300 skill points,while a "smart" tp exploiter uses some gold bought from farmers and in a week he has his legendary.Very correct indeed.

There is a difference between smart people that anticipate the market,or people who know what to invest their money in,and some jerk that buys every single piece of a listing and then dumps it in hours.

#13 Thunderhead

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

View PostSwoopeh, on 03 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I wouldn't have perma-banned them though, they really need a better penalty system. First strike is a warning for those who think they're doing no harm, second strike to show they mean business and the third strike you're out.
What the above user said. A better penalty system is needed, just outright banning is a bit severe imho. Well, that, and some other systems right now, are much needed ingame.

#14 Senatic

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:58 AM

lol @ the people in that thread. Seriously? Creating a potentially infinite amount of ectos out of thin air for no cost, you didn't realize this was exploiting? Well good riddance then, the IQ level of the game just went up with an average of 50.

#15 Gilles VI

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

i have 445 gold.and about 1k worth of weapons.I did not use any exploit or tp manipulation,i just played a lot.You do realize there are legendary weapons that can be bought for gold right?So a "dumb" player as you say,grinds mats,map completion,WvW badges 1.5 mil karma,a few hundreds of gold,about 300 skill points,while a "smart" tp exploiter uses some gold bought from farmers and in a week he has his legendary.Very correct indeed.

There is a difference between smart people that anticipate the market,or people who know what to invest their money in,and some jerk that buys every single piece of a listing and then dumps it in hours.

And a smart player that plays normally makes hiw own legendary, sells it and then directly crafts his own again, boom hundreds of gold profit.

And what is the difference between you waiting for a price to rise and other people outbuying some items and then placing them higher?

Edited by Gilles VI, 03 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.


#16 RaoulDukeHST

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

And a smart player that plays normally makes hiw own legendary, sells it and then directly crafts his own again, boom hundreds of gold profit.

And what is the difference between you waiting for a price to rise and other people outbuying some items and then placing them higher?
what's the difference?The first method requires the player to analyze the market,anticipating trends,making investments,rewarding you with profit if you are talented at it.The second method that you praise so much requires a VISA card,a gold farmers website and that's it,you are a "successful" modern Gordon Gecko,women are at your feet!

#17 Gilles VI

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

what's the difference?The first method requires the player to analyze the market,anticipating trends,making investments,rewarding you with profit if you are talented at it.The second method that you praise so much requires a VISA card,a gold farmers website and that's it,you are a "successful" modern Gordon Gecko,women are at your feet!

Now you are mixing up 2 things, a player like me who got 50 gold from just playing and then invested it can also buy stuff and buy out certain goods..
Buying gold is not a necessity.

And I advise you to randomly buy out a good and make the price rise, it isn't as easy as you think.

#18 duncanmix

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

And how would they need to fix it?

It's a free market, if anything it's the fault of the brainless people who do exactly what the smart people anticipate.

I'm not sure if you understand how people monopolize market. There is no anticipations of any sorts... First they pick an item that is hot for sale. Second they buy all of them from tp. Third they manipulate price from now on.... They dont anticipate anything they just change price and its working.

I'll give you example of one that person saw with their own eyes happen. He or she was looking at price of abyss dye it was around 5g. Wanted to buy it, next moment when he checked all abyss dyes were gone. After some time persons who bought them off put 15g+ price. As you can see there is no anticipations here. They simply rule price of things.

Also there is fix for this, anet just have to make normal price for abyss dyes fixed price. For exmaple if they feel abyss dye should be 5g then make them 5g from shop. This way monoplizers will lose huge chunk of money.
Next thing make precursors fixed price. For example 300g. Now they will lose even more money because they bought dusks for 400g+. I don't think you will have people brave enough to monopolize things after this.

But back on the topic, these people should be banned. Every time some exploit come around u see several individuals think its ok to use it. Actually its not, and anet said if you do come across something like this, you should report it fast and not abuse it. This is not first time it happens, and now I hope these people stay banned for good.

#19 Scizzor

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

There are people on reddit who posted about making over 300g + ectos.. and people are crying because they got banned... People defend it saying it was "too risky" and too much of a chance... really making over 300g is too risky doing the same mundane task over and over... yea no exploit there..

Edited by Scizzor, 03 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#20 Reikou

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

Anet has once again gone ahead and banned again for shits and giggles.

The only term on their EULA regarding "Exploits" is the following.

Quote

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.

What was done here is obviously not the exploit OF A BUG in Guild Wars 2, just an exploit of stupid people.  As such, there was no breach of EULA, and thus not ban worthy.

The only ones at fault here are arenanet, and really I hope this blows up to be as big of a shitstorm as the Norn Weapons incident during release.

tl;dr, Anet, take some responsibility and own up to your mistakes.  If you need to, do a rollback or something.  This is not the fault of the user.  Only the fault of your incompetent staff.

Edited by Reikou, 03 January 2013 - 11:37 AM.


#21 Thunderhead

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

Fixed prices on hot items would just turn the TP into a bargain hunt, which, if I understand correctly, is not their intention. Although, yes, monopolising is a "very" real theme in the TP these days.

#22 duncanmix

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

View PostReikou, on 03 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Anet has once again gone ahead and banned again for shits and giggles.

The only term on their EULA regarding "Exploits" is the following.

What was done here is obviously not the exploit OF A BUG in Guild Wars 2, just an exploit of stupid people.

The only ones at fault here are arenanet, and really I hope this blows up to be as big of a shitstorm as the Norn Weapons incident during release.

tl;dr, Anet, take some responsibility and own up to your mistakes.  If you need to, do a rollback or something.  This is not the fault of the user.  Only the fault of your incompetent staff.
I'm sorry? You just took quote of the reason why these people SHOULD get banned. (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits).

Do you think that making hundreds of gold in matter of minutes is not bug or..?

Edited by unraveled, 03 January 2013 - 08:04 PM.
Removed insulting content, added missing letters - you, not u.


#23 zwei2stein

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

It was duping exploit, plain and simple. Thus bans were fair and deserved.

It is impossible to claim otherwise because if you put one thing in and recieve two things (on average) out, it is duping scenario.

View PostJONO51, on 03 January 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

What makes it perhaps worse is that when asked if it was an exploit, ANet didn't answer.

Oreally?

http://i.imgur.com/xXXrd.png

View PostProtoss, on 03 January 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:


Also:
http://www.reddit.co..._hard_evidence/
(Since the point is easy to miss - it's about the gains folks made COMPARED to what can be made though other means.)

This was at height of duping - of course profit margin by then would be so thin that. This little qq does not prove anything was "OK"

#24 Reikou

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

View Postduncanmix, on 03 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

I'm sorry? You just took quote of the reason why these people SHOULD get banned. (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits).

Do you think that making hundreds of gold in matter of minutes is not bug or..?

its not a bug.  Its the exploit of stupid people or uninformed people.  Unless you consider the use of the TP a bug, and the selling of items on the TP an exploit.

Edited by unraveled, 03 January 2013 - 08:05 PM.
Fixed quote.


#25 duncanmix

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostReikou, on 03 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:


its not a bug.  Its the exploit of stupid people or uninformed people.  Unless you consider the use of the TP a bug, and the selling of items on the TP an exploit.

Read and try to understand this first lol    http://i.imgur.com/xXXrd.png

#26 JONO51

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

View Postzwei2stein, on 03 January 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:


that was posted after the exploit was patched.

#27 Gilles VI

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

View Postduncanmix, on 03 January 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you understand how people monopolize market. There is no anticipations of any sorts... First they pick an item that is hot for sale. Second they buy all of them from tp. Third they manipulate price from now on.... They dont anticipate anything they just change price and its working.

I'll give you example of one that person saw with their own eyes happen. He or she was looking at price of abyss dye it was around 5g. Wanted to buy it, next moment when he checked all abyss dyes were gone. After some time persons who bought them off put 15g+ price. As you can see there is no anticipations here. They simply rule price of things.

Also there is fix for this, anet just have to make normal price for abyss dyes fixed price. For exmaple if they feel abyss dye should be 5g then make them 5g from shop. This way monoplizers will lose huge chunk of money.
Next thing make precursors fixed price. For example 300g. Now they will lose even more money because they bought dusks for 400g+. I don't think you will have people brave enough to monopolize things after this.

But back on the topic, these people should be banned. Every time some exploit come around u see several individuals think its ok to use it. Actually its not, and anet said if you do come across something like this, you should report it fast and not abuse it. This is not first time it happens, and now I hope these people stay banned for good.

Or you could let the market fix itself?

Abyss dyes go up? Gamble in mystic forge for abyss dyes, then undercut the monopolist, or gamble on unid grey dyes, or craft them yourself,...
Your assumptions are only correct when you don't count new items entering the market.
But in reality markets are a dynamic thing.

If someone buys all up and puts em higher, people that want to profit will undercut him by 1c, which in turn stalls the monopolist, and in turn it would be very negative for him to buy it up, so he will let it stand, and so the price will sink again.

#28 Darkobra

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostRaoulDukeHST, on 03 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

The second method that you praise so much requires a VISA card,a gold farmers website and that's it

It really doesn't but I do thank you for making me laugh. If you knew how to play the market at all, you'd see the relation between the two of them. One makes gold, the other takes advantage of gold you have.

So yes, Gilles is right.

#29 Eon Lilu

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

They should get banned, infinity ecto's was an obvious exploit and im sure they are doing what Anet did last time. Those that did it a few times will not get banned. Those who get banned will be the one's who did it a few hundred times.....those who actually exploited it will be punished.

Those who do it a few times will not. Thats how they have handled previous exploiters. Was it Anet's fault in the first place? Yes. Does that mean it's ok to abuse it a few hundred times? No. Banned. Bye.

Makes me laugh when players try to make out there the victims and Anet are the big bad dictator's....

In the words of an Anet Dev...

Quote

Exploit closed.
Worst offenders terminated.
That’s what has to happen to make things right for all of us.


Im just glad Anet unlike most other gaming companies take this sort of exploiting seriously and actually act on it swiftly.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 03 January 2013 - 12:08 PM.


#30 duncanmix

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 03 January 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Or you could let the market fix itself?

Abyss dyes go up? Gamble in mystic forge for abyss dyes, then undercut the monopolist, or gamble on unid grey dyes, or craft them yourself,...
Your assumptions are only correct when you don't count new items entering the market.
But in reality markets are a dynamic thing.

If someone buys all up and puts em higher, people that want to profit will undercut him by 1c, which in turn stalls the monopolist, and in turn it would be very negative for him to buy it up, so he will let it stand, and so the price will sink again.

You know what is reality? Current price of abyss dye. Current price of lodestones. Current price of dusk, black dye, white dye, celestial dye.... There are more items that changed price. That's reality that show how much gold they make. I follow market closely and I notice how price shift.




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