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So it seems a lot of naughty boys and girls got one last gift from Santa this Christmas


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#331 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Why would heads roll and public statements be made? Fix the bug, do rollbacks/remove the illicitly obtained ectos/profits, nothing else is needed (including bans).

And give everyone a free pass to abandon personal responsibility in the process.

It's not like they didn't warn people with the karma exploit back then. When everyone considered them soft (so did I) for not only allowing those players back in - but giving them that ridiculous little slap on the wrist and hope THEY remove their bounty by themselves.

Now they acted upon their "last warning" stance and I, personally - despite having one person of our guild involved, really appreciate them to act on their promise with perma bans.


PS.: Do you even have the shadow of an idea how hard removing illicitly obtained profit is? I mean - you're basically in to track every single transaction, remove the gold from the ectos they sold from players who are completely innocent in this - just because they happened to buy ectos from one of those jerks.

Maybe they crafted their legendaries or god knows what in the meanwhile with those ectos they bought, born from that particular exploit - what are you gonna do? Dismantle that by-passers legendary and pull out the ectos leaving them a note in their mail?

Sorry, but then you'd have to roll-back entire server landscapes affecting ALL players, just for the folly of those 200 (!) people who were banned rightfully. Not really feasible, is it?

Edited by Illein, 11 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.


#332 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

And give everyone a free pass to abandon personal responsibility in the process.

It's not like they didn't warn people with the karma exploit back then. When everyone considered them soft (so did I) for not only allowing those players back in - but giving them that ridiculous little slap on the wrist and hope THEY remove their bounty by themselves.

Now they acted upon their "last warning" stance and I, personally - despite having one person of our guild involved, really appreciate them to act on their promise with perma bans.


PS.: Do you even have the shadow of an idea how hard removing illicitly obtained profit is? I mean - you're basically in to track every single transaction, remove the gold from the ectos they sold from players who are completely innocent in this - just because they happened to buy ectos from one of those jerks.

Maybe they crafted their legendaries or god knows what in the meanwhile with those ectos they bought, born from that particular exploit - what are you gonna do? Dismantle that by-passers legendary and pull out the ectos leaving them a note in their mail?

Sorry, but then you'd have to roll-back entire server landscapes affecting ALL players, just for the folly of those 200 (!) people who were banned rightfully. Not really feasible, is it?
Nah, the "damage" to the economy that is the result of some other dude buying ectos from the dupers and crafting with those is done no matter what.

But the gold that these dupers got for the ectos could be removed. If it's still in the possession of the duper, that is.

#333 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:06 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

But the gold that these dupers got for the ectos could be removed. If it's still in the possession of the duper, that is.

Glad we agree. Easiest way to remove any potential gains of such: Permanent Ban.

Given how this was only done to the 200 most excessive exploiters - I still remain on my position of it being adequate measure. Not really sure why you'd want to give these people another pass. It needs to be clear as sunlight - that exploiting something that huge, will not be tolerated.

I personally don't care about much other exploits - such as getting more tokens per dungeon run or skipping this or that, I don't care - it by and large doesn't affect other gamers directly. Undeservedly gaining vast amounts of wealth through an exploit, does. (And no, playing the market is NOT an exploit, no matter how often you try to put a similarity spin on that. Of course, people who gained wealth through OTHER exploits and then play the market with that money - should not be the case/stopped).

#334 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Glad we agree. Easiest way to remove any potential gains of such: Permanent Ban.

Given how this was only done to the 200 most excessive exploiters - I still remain on my position of it being adequate measure. Not really sure why you'd want to give these people another pass. It needs to be clear as sunlight - that exploiting something that huge, will not be tolerated.

I personally don't care about much other exploits - such as getting more tokens per dungeon run or skipping this or that, I don't care - it by and large doesn't affect other gamers directly. Undeservedly gaining vast amounts of wealth through an exploit, does. (And no, playing the market is NOT an exploit, no matter how often you try to put a similarity spin on that. Of course, people who gained wealth through OTHER exploits and then play the market with that money - should not be the case/stopped).
But putting an exploit that huge in a game that you paid money for, is not only tolerated, but you also tolerate that they instead of taking responsibility, block a lot of people from playing?

Why would the only people you pay in all this be exempt from any sort of standard? They, if anyone, should actually take more responsibility in this.

#335 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:28 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

But putting an exploit that huge in a game that you paid money for, is not only tolerated, but you also tolerate that they instead of taking responsibility, block a lot of people from playing?

Why would the only people you pay in all this be exempt from any sort of standard? They, if anyone, should actually take more responsibility in this.

Sorry but paying for the game makes very clear that you're only provided the service to PLAY that game as long as you FOLLOW THE RULES. It's really not a hard to grasp concept.

There's always gonna be bugs in a game like that, some minor ones, some major ones. How else would you educate your playerbase NOT to take advantage of these major ones if not through enforcing the EULA? Seriously?

It's ridiculous this even needs discussing. If you break the rules, you cease your privilege to play the game. Short and simple. They turn a blind eye towards smaller mishaps or things that are not really weighing much. Which usually is considered goodwill, but of course, now that it hit a couple of people - they claim it's inconsequent just because the "mishap" they chose, was one that didn't sit too well with ANet, understandably ;)

#336 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Sorry but paying for the game makes very clear that you're only provided the service to PLAY that game as long as you FOLLOW THE RULES. It's really not a hard to grasp concept.

There's always gonna be bugs in a game like that, some minor ones, some major ones. How else would you educate your playerbase NOT to take advantage of these major ones if not through enforcing the EULA? Seriously?

It's ridiculous this even needs discussing. If you break the rules, you cease your privilege to play the game. Short and simple. They turn a blind eye towards smaller mishaps or things that are not really weighing much. Which usually is considered goodwill, but of course, now that it hit a couple of people - they claim it's inconsequent just because the "mishap" they chose, was one that didn't sit too well with ANet, understandably ;)
"There's always gonna be bugs" lol yes, exactly. And when they do appear, the responsibility should fall on the developer, not on the end users, who should be given working software when they pay for it.

I agree, it's ridiculous that something as easy as this should need discussing, but as long as people are fine with paying to be *ed in the ass while the other side has zero responsibility whatsoever, the problem exists and needs that discussion.

#337 Evans

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

"There's always gonna be bugs" lol yes, exactly. And when they do appear, the responsibility should fall on the developer, not on the end users, who should be given working software when they pay for it.

I agree, it's ridiculous that something as easy as this should need discussing, but as long as people are fine with paying to be *ed in the ass while the other side has zero responsibility whatsoever, the problem exists and needs that discussion.

It's been a while since I've thought this, but I completely agree with you RJ.

#338 Trei

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:26 PM

The ones who got banned did not have to abuse the bug, just because it existed.
They should not have abused the bug no matter who caused the bug.

But they did.
No one forced them.

They could have left it well alone but no, they chose to tempt fate.

I think it would be even more irresponsible of Anet to the rest of us if they didn't ban them and leave rotten apples in the basket with the good ones.




#339 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostTrei, on 11 January 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

The ones who got banned did not have to abuse the bug, just because it existed.
They should not have abused the bug no matter who caused the bug.

But they did.
No one forced them.

They could have left it well alone but no, they chose to tempt fate.

I think it would be even more irresponsible of Anet to the rest of us if they didn't ban them and leave rotten apples in the basket with the good ones.
I advise you to read "the Lucifer Effect", an excellent book by Philip Zimbardo, the man who set up the infamous Stanford prison experiment (I pretend to assume that you've heard of it while I'm actually fairly sure you haven't). I'm sure you won't do it, however, so I'll post spoilers right here: "bad apples" are actually extremely rare (basically cases of clinical insanity). Bad baskets are much more common, and actually easier to fix.

And I still point you to people who did Droks runs. They tempted fate too and ANet thought that they were ok even though it was an exploit. If ANet instils a culture of fear and bans then we'll never see clever things like that.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 January 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#340 Trei

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I advise you to read "the Lucifer Effect", an excellent book by Philip Zimbardo, the man who set up the infamous Stanford prison experiment (I pretend to assume that you've heard of it while I'm actually fairly sure you haven't). I'm sure you won't do it, however, so I'll post spoilers right here: "bad apples" are actually extremely rare (basically cases of clinical insanity). Bad baskets are much more common, and actually easier to fix.

And I still point you to people who did Droks runs. They tempted fate too and ANet thought that they were ok even though it was an exploit. If ANet instils a culture of fear and bans then we'll never see clever things like that.
Why... are these clever things of any real value to the game?
I think I can do without them if it means a more stable gaming environment.

So who was the exploiter in a drok's run? What was their gain compared to what it took?
The lowbie who may have paid through his nose in coin to buy a run to get max armor earlier?
Or the runner who risk himself to make the run for the lowbie's coin?

It can't be the runner, who is actually braving the content playing the way it is intended.
How about the lowbie who could have lost a fortune just to get something he would have gotten eventually, later on, by playing through the game's content as intended?
Was the fact that he got his max armor at lower levels of any lasting significance to the rest of the game?

That's why I can clearly understand why Anet allowed droks runs to continue.

But what did the wintersday recipe exploiter stand to lose compared to what he could potentially gain?
I don't think there is a relevant comparison here.

Then we have of course Zimbardo's book, which talks about Evil in human beings.
Our situation is nowhere near that level of malice.
It is simply immature Greed here.

Maybe I should have used something other than "bad apples", since I did not actually intend for it to mean turning good players into bad ones.

What I see could happen is more normal players exploiting, perhaps without even realizing they are, since there would have been no repercussion whatsoever.
"So what if I get caught? Pssshff... What's the worse that could happen anyway?"
or worse -
"Hey my whole guild has been doing it for months anyway, it must be okay"   

No, it is not okay.
And I can't see a better, fairer way to get that message through than to make an effective example of just the bunch of worst offenders that the game itself could well do without.

Edited by Trei, 11 January 2013 - 03:11 PM.


#341 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

"There's always gonna be bugs" lol yes, exactly. And when they do appear, the responsibility should fall on the developer, not on the end users, who should be given working software when they pay for it.

I agree, it's ridiculous that something as easy as this should need discussing, but as long as people are fine with paying to be *ed in the ass while the other side has zero responsibility whatsoever, the problem exists and needs that discussion.

You know why what you just wrote there has absolutely no merit? Because it's not like you've got broken software for your pennies. You've received a game, one that belongs to a genre of games that are notoriously NEVER free of bugs because of their magnitude.

As a sober customer you're aware of that. So yeah, sorry but your analogy of people being fine with paying to get screwed doesn't apply - because guess what? You only get screwed if you're playing outside of the rules.

If a Pingpong player pulls out a tennis racket at the Olympics and gets disqualified - is it the commitee's responsibility to prevent him from bringing one in the first place?

Wish people would start taking responsibility for their own actions.

Edited by Illein, 11 January 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#342 this a pointed

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

You know why what you just wrote there has absolutely no merit? Because it's not like you've got broken software for your pennies. You've received a game, one that belongs to a genre of games that are notoriously NEVER free of bugs because of their magnitude.

As a sober customer you're aware of that. So yeah, sorry but your analogy of people being fine with paying to get screwed doesn't apply - because guess what? You only get screwed if you're playing outside of the rules.

If a Pingpong player pulls out a tennis racket at the Olympics and gets disqualified - is it the commitee's responsibility to prevent him from bringing one in the first place?

Wish people would start taking responsibility for their own actions.

Played outside of the rules?
The only rule that comes close to this case is something like only play the content as its intended to be. But how do we know if its intended or not? This method where you could get ecto's aslong as you had mithril ores (so this is NOT duping) is something that happends in a lot of mmo's: A new patch comes with new crafting recipes and the first few people that discovers them will make alot of money. Until the majority of the people finds out and prices will settle again.
So its normal for people to think this method was intended like this.

#343 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

You know why what you just wrote there has absolutely no merit? Because it's not like you've got broken software for your pennies. You've received a game, one that belongs to a genre of games that are notoriously NEVER free of bugs because of their magnitude.

As a sober customer you're aware of that. So yeah, sorry but your analogy of people being fine with paying to get screwed doesn't apply - because guess what? You only get screwed if you're playing outside of the rules.

If a Pingpong player pulls out a tennis racket at the Olympics and gets disqualified - is it the commitee's responsibility to prevent him from bringing one in the first place?

Wish people would start taking responsibility for their own actions.
Very funny.

So I sell you a car, forgive me for not putting an engine in it. Or, well, it is an engine, but it breaks after you drive for an hour. Too bad lolz it's your responsibility, why did you drive it? Didn't you see the fine print where I said "drive at your own risk"?

Wait, what do you mean by that you should reasonably expect to get a workable car for your money?

View PostTrei, on 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Why... are these clever things of any real value to the game?
I think I can do without them if it means a more stable gaming environment.

So who was the exploiter in a drok's run? What was their gain compared to what it took?
The lowbie who may have paid through his nose in coin to buy a run to get max armor earlier?
Or the runner who risk himself to make the run for the lowbie's coin?

It can't be the runner, who is actually braving the content playing the way it is intended.
How about the lowbie who could have lost a fortune just to get something he would have gotten eventually, later on, by playing through the game's content as intended?
Was the fact that he got his max armor at lower levels of any lasting significance to the rest of the game?

That's why I can clearly understand why Anet allowed droks runs to continue.

But what did the wintersday recipe exploiter stand to lose compared to what he could potentially gain?
I don't think there is a relevant comparison here.

Then we have of course Zimbardo's book, which talks about Evil in human beings.
Our situation is nowhere near that level of malice.
It is simply immature Greed here.

Maybe I should have used something other than "bad apples", since I did not actually intend for it to mean turning good players into bad ones.

What I see could happen is more normal players exploiting, perhaps without even realizing they are, since there would have been no repercussion whatsoever.
"So what if I get caught? Pssshff... What's the worse that could happen anyway?"
or worse -
"Hey my whole guild has been doing it for months anyway, it must be okay"   

No, it is not okay.
And I can't see a better, fairer way to get that message through than to make an effective example of just the bunch of worst offenders that the game itself could well do without.
Yes, Droks runs were of considerable value for many GW1 players.

You really should read that book, but I'm still sure that you won't. It's not at all about The Evil in human beings. It's about mundane evil, completely devoid of true malice.

That more players would be exploiting is a good thing. That is ANet taking responsibility for their actions, because it is ANet that loses profits from it. And to avoid that, it is ANet that will have to improve their QA, and that will make the game better for all of us. So I can't see why you would be against it.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 January 2013 - 03:33 PM.


#344 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Very funny.

So I sell you a car, forgive me for not putting an engine in it. Or, well, it is an engine, but it breaks after you drive for an hour. Too bad lolz it's your responsibility, why did you drive it? Didn't you see the fine print where I said "drive at your own risk"?

Wait, what do you mean by that you should reasonably expect to get a workable car for your money?

Should have went with my analogy. Because yours sucks, to be frank. It's not like you have a broken game, the game had a freaking bug that could be exploited to basically print gold (oh noes, you had to use MITHRIL ORES - so it's NOT duping! Riiiiiight, totally different *coughs*). And people who did, knowingly abusing that exploit, were banned.

How that does compare to a car without an engine, well - you sure have an imagination a lot more vivid than I.

And yeah, This a Pointed - it's completely normal for people to think getting a valuable resource out of junk unlimitedly is okay. I mean, it happens all the time in the game. You put 4 Copper Ores into the Mystic Forge and BAM Precursor! Right?

Oh wait, it actually doesn't. If you really thought this was legit, did it a thousand times and got banned for it - you probably have a more severe issue than just not being able to log into your Guild Wars 2 Account any longer...

#345 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:48 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Should have went with my analogy. Because yours sucks, to be frank. It's not like you have a broken game, the game had a freaking bug that could be exploited to basically print gold (oh noes, you had to use MITHRIL ORES - so it's NOT duping! Riiiiiight, totally different *coughs*). And people who did, knowingly abusing that exploit, were banned.

How that does compare to a car without an engine, well - you sure have an imagination a lot more vivid than I.

And yeah, This a Pointed - it's completely normal for people to think getting a valuable resource out of junk unlimitedly is okay. I mean, it happens all the time in the game. You put 4 Copper Ores into the Mystic Forge and BAM Precursor! Right?

Oh wait, it actually doesn't. If you really thought this was legit, did it a thousand times and got banned for it - you probably have a more severe issue than just not being able to log into your Guild Wars 2 Account any longer...
I don't think it is "legit", but I don't paid those people money. I don't think that it is "legit" to release bug after bug as if bugs is the meaning of life for you as a game developer either, but I did pay ANet money and so did you. So yeah, both parties should get their *ing act together, but ANet should do it first and they should do it right away. I'm economically invested in that, and so are you.

#346 Arquenya

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostTrei, on 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

So who was the exploiter in a drok's run? What was their gain compared to what it took?
The lowbie who may have paid through his nose in coin to buy a run to get max armor earlier?
Or the runner who risk himself to make the run for the lowbie's coin?

It can't be the runner, who is actually braving the content playing the way it is intended.
How about the lowbie who could have lost a fortune just to get something he would have gotten eventually, later on, by playing through the game's content as intended?
Was the fact that he got his max armor at lower levels of any lasting significance to the rest of the game?

That's why I can clearly understand why Anet allowed droks runs to continue.
In my opinion it wasn't as innocent as you make it be.
  • Drok runners could complete the content far easier as it was intended to be;
  • Drok runners used lvl20 armour and elites to "bash noobs" in the lvl5-10-15 arena's.
I didn't agree with this. And I still see it as an exploit with undesirable consequences.

#347 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:58 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

I don't think it is "legit", but I don't paid those people money. I don't think that it is "legit" to release bug after bug as if bugs is the meaning of life for you as a game developer either, but I did pay ANet money and so did you. So yeah, both parties should get their *ing act together, but ANet should do it first and they should do it right away. I'm economically invested in that, and so are you.

You can be unsatisfied as a customer with the quality of the game and the amounts of bugs it has or how quick they are or aren't fixed - that's perfectly within your prerogatives, but doesn't really have any bearing on this subject.

Would I prefer there weren't bugs and especially bugs like that to begin with? Why of course. But I am a realist. The chances of that are pretty slim ;)

#348 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

You can be unsatisfied as a customer with the quality of the game and the amounts of bugs it has or how quick they are or aren't fixed - that's perfectly within your prerogatives, but doesn't really have any bearing on this subject.

Would I prefer there weren't bugs and especially bugs like that to begin with? Why of course. But I am a realist. The chances of that are pretty slim ;)
Of course, and that is the direct result of there not being any consequences for the devs. That is why I say they should take responsibility. It's a purely egoistic standpoint and I only say it because it would make the game better for me, but it would make the game better for you as well. I'm not talking about a 100% bug free game, just that bugs like these are easy as all hell to actually find. It's as if they didn't even look at what they did before they decided to release.

View PostArquenya, on 11 January 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Drok runners used lvl20 armour and elites to "bash noobs" in the lvl5-10-15 arena's.
Yeahhhh :D Good times.

Edited by raspberry jam, 11 January 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#349 Arquenya

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:


Yeahhhh :D Good times.
Just to illustrate the thin line between "bannable exploit" and "fun player inventiveness" .. ^_^

#350 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Of course, and that is the direct result of there not being any consequences for the devs. That is why I say they should take responsibility. It's a purely egoistic standpoint and I only say it because it would make the game better for me, but it would make the game better for you as well. I'm not talking about a 100% bug free game, just that bugs like these are easy as all hell to actually find. It's as if they didn't even look at what they did before they decided to release.

Yeahhhh :D Good times.

So what do you suggest? I mean, it's clear you already stated that you think the bans were undeserved because it was all a developer's fault to begin with. But what is it you think would mean for that Dev to take responsibility beyond actually fixing the issue asap as he/she/they did?

Do you demand that person loses his/her/ job because of it so the possibility of this kind of bug happening again is slightly decreased? In my experience, that person was sweating blood and tears over that incident, because let's face it - it's a rookie mistake and if that person isn't fired yet, they are probably pulling their heads in every time they want a show of hands in their conference rooms on who tests the next big thing.

I am just not quite sure what "taking responsibility" in your vocabulary has in store for the devs who caused that. Care to enlighten me? Saying there weren't any consequences is naive, every time someone messes up in a company - he/she WILL be held accountable. I don't think Arena Net is any more lax about this, than any other AAA Developer in the business.

#351 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

So what do you suggest? I mean, it's clear you already stated that you think the bans were undeserved because it was all a developer's fault to begin with. But what is it you think would mean for that Dev to take responsibility beyond actually fixing the issue asap as he/she/they did?

Do you demand that person loses his/her/ job because of it so the possibility of this kind of bug happening again is slightly decreased? In my experience, that person was sweating blood and tears over that incident, because let's face it - it's a rookie mistake and if that person isn't fired yet, they are probably pulling their heads in every time they want a show of hands in their conference rooms on who tests the next big thing.

I am just not quite sure what "taking responsibility" in your vocabulary has in store for the devs who caused that. Care to enlighten me? Saying there weren't any consequences is naive, every time someone messes up in a company - he/she WILL be held accountable. I don't think Arena Net is any more lax about this, than any other AAA Developer in the business.
I suggest the following, in order:
  • Fix the bug (already done, I think).
  • Remove the illicit profits. Of course, only from the people who actually took part. If someone created 3000 ectos and sold 2500 of them, remove the remaining 500 ectos together with, let's say, all his money, and any exotic/ascended/legendary items that he acquired after the fact. Possibly other rare materials as well, if he invested in those.
  • Yeah, speaking of that, there should be a check of some kind... If removal of materials and items don't represent enough value, that player should be investigated to see what he did with the cash. If he for example bought some rare item to hide the money, that item should be deleted. If on the other hand he dumped all the cash in the Mystic Forge while not getting anything for it, then ANet should just lol because he already got his due.
  • Hire some at least half-competent QA personnel (because it's all too obvious that they don't check anything more than "does this compile").
That would be taking responsibility as a company that develops/sells a game and that manages the game service. That would be a far better (for us players) situation than what is actually happening:
  • Release a bug ridden piece of shit (talking about code quality here) game
  • Vainly try to repair that by releasing a bug ridden piece of shit (again code quality) patch
  • Have the gall to ban people for poking their fingers through the holes of the leprous bad excuse for a game that is the result of all this
  • Let idiot fanboys defend these decisions on forums
I do understand why they are doing it though, because it's far more profitable.

#352 Illein

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

I suggest the following, in order:
  • Fix the bug (already done, I think).
  • Remove the illicit profits. Of course, only from the people who actually took part. If someone created 3000 ectos and sold 2500 of them, remove the remaining 500 ectos together with, let's say, all his money, and any exotic/ascended/legendary items that he acquired after the fact. Possibly other rare materials as well, if he invested in those.
  • Yeah, speaking of that, there should be a check of some kind... If removal of materials and items don't represent enough value, that player should be investigated to see what he did with the cash. If he for example bought some rare item to hide the money, that item should be deleted. If on the other hand he dumped all the cash in the Mystic Forge while not getting anything for it, then ANet should just lol because he already got his due.
  • Hire some at least half-competent QA personnel (because it's all too obvious that they don't check anything more than "does this compile").
That would be taking responsibility as a company that develops/sells a game and that manages the game service. That would be a far better (for us players) situation than what is actually happening:
  • Release a bug ridden piece of shit (talking about code quality here) game
  • Vainly try to repair that by releasing a bug ridden piece of shit (again code quality) patch
  • Have the gall to ban people for poking their fingers through the holes of the leprous bad excuse for a game that is the result of all this
  • Let idiot fanboys defend these decisions on forums
I do understand why they are doing it though, because it's far more profitable.

Meh, you know - I can't be arsed to debunk that because it'd be an utter waste of the tiny wee fragments of my finger tips' skin to hit the keys accordingly.

The only thing that's all too obvious, is that you think you didn't get your $ worth of game play experience and instead of moving on, you rely on Don Quijoting. Good luck with those wind mills.

SeaQuest out.

Edited by Illein, 11 January 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#353 pumpkin pie

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

https://www.guildwar...aches-outcomes/

they violated the rules of conduct, end of story.

Advertising cheats, hacks, or exploits, not only did they not report the bugs they posted in on a forum.

#354 raspberry jam

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Meh, you know - I can't be arsed to debunk that because it'd be an utter waste of the tiny wee fragments of my finger tips' skin to hit the keys accordingly.

The only thing that's all too obvious, is that you think you didn't get your $ worth of game play experience and instead of moving on, you rely on Don Quijoting. Good luck with those wind mills.

SeaQuest out.
I don't think that you know what "debunk" means. You mean that you are too lazy to argue against my suggestion and telling my why it would not work. I can tell you why it would not work: there's no profit in it, so management would never decide to do it.

Who the * is SeaQuest, isn't that that Greenpeace ship. Are you some sort of hippie?

#355 Millimidget

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Or do you just want to see heads roll because some people couldn't help themselves but to enrichen themselves illegitimately and now have to face the recoil?
I don't really care to see heads roll on either side of this issue. It was a minor mistake on Anets part, that given the timing was allowed to snowball into a larger issue. They would have been better served quietly putting it to rest.

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

And give everyone a free pass to abandon personal responsibility in the process.
This is paying lip service to that concept. They can't be selective in the application of the ban hammer, using "potential economic harm" as the guiding principle. Ban all exploiters or ban none. After reading the thread about the guy who was refunded his gem purchases after being banned for this, I can only assume that they determined banning for HotW would be too expensive in terms of refunds to be worthwhile. They're obviously weighing the potential loss in gem sales against the potential loss due to refunds, so to say this was about stopping exploiters is ridiculous.

It was just a ban wave that Anet felt didn't cause them much economic harm. That criteria can be easily abused. Like an exploit.

View PostIllein, on 11 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

But what is it you think would mean for that Dev to take responsibility beyond actually fixing the issue asap as he/she/they did?
But they didn't fix it ASAP. They waited something like ten+ days to fix it, ten+ days they also failed to address it on the forums, despite it being public knowledge to the point where people were on the forums asking if it was an exploit.

I understand that it was the holidays, and perhaps even that too many staff were on vacation to effect a tiny change to one recipe. But surely someone from Anet could have chimed in and stated that they were aware of the recipe, and that they would monitor it and consider banning accordingly (and I understand banning a guy who made 2000+ globs with this), some time in the first few days it was available.

Failing that, they could have accepted that the failure to promptly address this resided in their own choice to vacation. That's not to say we should harp on them for fixing the recipe or leaving it in for so long, but that they shouldn't take it upon themselves to blame the players.

As it is, it sounds like the threshold for this was fairly low. I know the numbers banned are allegedly low as well, but for how long the recipe was available, you didn't need to spend 8+ hours a day abusing it to qualify for the ban.

I would have been satisfied if they came in and fixed the recipe and otherwise left the issue alone. The alternative is to ban for every exploit, but it's clear they won't do that because it's way too costly (partially because exploits are still way too common).

View Postpumpkin pie, on 11 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

not only did they not report the bugs they posted in on a forum.
Historically, that's the quickest method for getting a bug addressed.

D3 offered a great example with the wizard's perma-Archon bug; reported regularly and only quietly known for two months, it was hotfixed inside 24 hours once it became public knowledge on the forums.

Meanwhile, am I the only one who thinks the game has much bigger issues, and that other than fixing the recipe, this really didn't warrant any more developer attention? And yet, this seems to be the most attention I've seen Anet give any issue.

Edited by Millimidget, 11 January 2013 - 09:35 PM.


#356 Darkobra

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:08 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Very funny.

So I sell you a car, forgive me for not putting an engine in it. Or, well, it is an engine, but it breaks after you drive for an hour. Too bad lolz it's your responsibility, why did you drive it? Didn't you see the fine print where I said "drive at your own risk"?

Wait, what do you mean by that you should reasonably expect to get a workable car for your money?

You've no idea how many places have the motto "Once you drive it off our lot, it's not our problem." And they get away with it.

That's the problem with every single real life comparison I have been forced to endure through this entire thread. Hell, even every forum ever. They're terrible and based off guess work or pure lack of experience.

The one that made me laugh was people thinking that because the cashier left the register open, the thief is completely entitled to steal. Or the refund thread. "It's not like you can eat a bad burger and say you want a refund for your entire meal!" YES! YOU CAN! People think you can't so they don't! But the people that know you can actually go ahead and do this! And then they comply because it's good for business! Word of mouth spreads, they bring their friends to the same place and they actually make MORE money!

Please, every single one of you, stop using real life comparisons because you can't use common sense about exploits. Use the information you have at hand without extreme hyperbole about something to do with nothing. It's not just hurting your argument but actually hurting my brain.

Thank you.

#357 Gli

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:25 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 11 January 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

I suggest the following, in order:
  • Remove the illicit profits. Of course, only from the people who actually took part. If someone created 3000 ectos and sold 2500 of them, remove the remaining 500 ectos together with, let's say, all his money, and any exotic/ascended/legendary items that he acquired after the fact. Possibly other rare materials as well, if he invested in those.
  • Yeah, speaking of that, there should be a check of some kind... If removal of materials and items don't represent enough value, that player should be investigated to see what he did with the cash. If he for example bought some rare item to hide the money, that item should be deleted. If on the other hand he dumped all the cash in the Mystic Forge while not getting anything for it, then ANet should just lol because he already got his due.
Just getting rid of undesirable costumers sounds like a better and much easier option.

#358 ReMarkable91

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:55 AM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 11 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

https://www.guildwar...aches-outcomes/

they violated the rules of conduct, end of story.

Advertising cheats, hacks, or exploits, not only did they not report the bugs they posted in on a forum.

Yup all 200 people here made a own topic with OMG COME EXPLOIT THIS BUG NOW AND EARN FREE MONEYZZZZ

And most of those topics were about is this intended or a wrongly programmed recipe(explot) , even on official forums without an answer from arenanet.

It is not possible some of those persons could have thought it was the promised way to make ascanded backpieces and legendaries more accesable. No how could they even think that, it was like a npc that u can talk to give 1 ecto and get 10 ectos back it was like so obvious there was no luck factor nothing.
It is also clear that event item recipes allways are copies of current recipes and can never ever be different then the standard recipes.
Becuase hey it clear that if an 80 ring takes 3 globs an fkcing lvl 75 also should be 3.
Nope every single one of those 200 bastards only had 1 goal. Make 500 G without telling anyone and destroy the economy as much as possible so other players lose all fun in the game. They should be bannished for life and never be allowed back on the internets!!

Good thing you spoke to every single 200 of them to find that out ;)

#359 BlairPhoenix

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

View PostReMarkable91, on 12 January 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

And most of those topics were about is this intended or a wrongly programmed recipe(explot) , even on official forums without an answer from arenanet.
Common sense says, if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be doing it. It's funny to me how many of you seem to eschew common sense here.

#360 Trei

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:05 AM

You know what they say: common sense ain't common at all.




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