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Usage of a thief in higher Fractals and Dungeons


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#1 Darthemporer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

Hi fellow thiefs,

first of all this shall not get into a whining thread or something similiar.
Still my question is, what role can the thief fit in, in higher dungeons?

I am asking this because lately i feel more and more useless compared to other classes in Dungeons. And i also doubt that its because of my playstyle or else, since im playing thief since beta and running quite a few different builds. Also no one ever complained about me in party. Still this personal feeling of uselessness wont go away.

So now you surely can say we can maintin as damagedealer, where i would counter with mesmer, which can deal impressive Damage which isnt too far away from ours. Also they have quiete a big set of tools, which helps the entry party a lot.

About support we dont have to talk, since we cant add a stable set of support tools to the party, and even if we find some, im pretty sure guardians, engineers, and so on can do better.

What i havent tested now is the thief as tank, but here i also hardly believe we can reach the survivability and controll skills of other classes.

So my question is, in which partyslot do you see your party compared to other classes, or if you maybe also think thief is rendered more and more useless.
I also would appreciate any tips and builds which could remove my current sadness with while playing the thief ;)

Thankfully
Darthemporer

Edited by Darthemporer, 03 January 2013 - 12:42 PM.


#2 Funky Snapple

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

I'm really surprised to learn that about thieves in dungeons, because I've been reading a lot about WvW and all I see is people complaining about how overpowered thieves are.
I watched this video yesterday and it really made me want to play a thief:


#3 Darthemporer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

Thx for the fast answer and yes its true that we are strong in wvw, but still out there are enough other videos from other classes which own pretty hard ^^

#4 Trei

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostFunky Snapple, on 03 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I'm really surprised to learn that about thieves in dungeons, because I've been reading a lot about WvW and all I see is people complaining about how overpowered thieves are.
I watched this video yesterday and it really made me want to play a thief:
[video]
"It's so intense!"
"What does it mean?"

<starts sobbing uncontrollably!>

"The colors! Nooooooooooooooo!"

"It's too much!"

"Make it stop! MAKE IT STOP!"
"Get it away!"

<flees in terror!>

"It burns! IT BURNS!"

Edited by Trei, 03 January 2013 - 02:35 PM.


#5 Ropes782

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

I have been playing thief since beta as well and am up to the lvl 30 fractals.  Each class can bring something useful to the party, but unfortunately some classes just bring more to the table.  Here are some of the highlights that the thief brings.

Dredge: Stealth.  Stealth for the pressure plates at the beginning.  Stealth for running bombs to the door.  Party stealth when blowing down the door.  Quick teleport/movement and aggro loss when using the control panels for the lava buckets on the last room.  (unfortunately good members just use spy kits to accomplish similar tricks).  Also, if your party misses a lava bucket on the boss, you can drain defiant stacks and daze the boss easy with headshot so it can't heal.

Cliffside:  Blind.  Using off-hand pistol during seal breaks is amazing.  All of the attacks from chanters and other trash mobs are affected by blind.  If you line of sight them to get them all clumped up, you will negate almost all damage.

Snowblind:  Stealth.  We can solo the first fire to take down the ice wall. (Idk if this can be done with spy kits or if mesmers can do it as well)

Aquatic:  Nothing.  We are amazing tanks in underwater with spear skill #5 (if you trait to sustains initiative) but that is not important since the fights don't need a tank.  Scorpion wire is useful for the jelly, but other classes pull as well and we have no way to drain the defiant stacks off the jelly.

Swamp:  While we don't have a lot to add, I'd still say we are the second best class for this fractal (mesmer being the best).  We avoid mobs running the wisps using stealth and can also teleport.  We have a lot of evades if we are the main target of mossman if you fight legit.  We have high mobility around the druid boss for taking out the spirit druid things or rezing people.

Ascalon:  High mobility for the final boss.  Our evades + shortbow skill #3 make us so hard to catch by the boss or his squire which is very useful if the boss goes into greatsword mode.

Volcano:  Scorpion wire and stuns using sword/pistol is decent for keeping grawl from the captives, but other classes have better enemy movement control than us.  Our excessive evading with dodge+shortbow skill #3 make it so we can avoid the agony arrows from the final boss pretty easily.

Asura:  Smokescreen + dancing dagger is awesome.  While it isn't as good as a reflect wall, its still something (some classes don't have good projectile blocking/reflecting.

Jade Maw:  Stealth to avoid tentacles and teleports to get to the crystals faster.  Nothing special like guardians binding blade but this fight isn't hard anyways.

Overall opinion: Other classes can provide more than a thief and members can achieve stealth with those blasted spy kits (I hate those consumables; makes me feel like I bring so much less to the table).  I think having a thief in the higher groups is fine, but having multiple in the same group seems unnecessary and possibly not as good as certain other classes.

As for my build, it changes depending on the fractal and the party.  I have a pure zerker gear set and a high survivability condition dmg gear set which I can switch between.  I also change major traits, utilities, and weapon sets during fractals.  I do typically have shadow refuge and blinding powder on my bar though.


Disclaimer: if people see stealth as an exploit (like using it to light the first fire in snowblind to take out the ice wall), you shouldn't!  Stealth is our core mechanic and its simply a different play style from the normal "fight to complete an objective" mentality.

Edited by Ropes782, 03 January 2013 - 04:08 PM.


#6 Twoscoops

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Between the AoE stealths & heals of Shadow Refuge + Blinding Powder, the perma-blind fields of pistol #5 + Smokescreen, the game’s best combo finishers and the superior damage dealing, I don’t think thieves shy in comparison to anyone else. Aside from a good tanking guardian.

#7 Reikou

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

Nothing in the game does more single target damage than 30/30/0/0/10 D/D full berserker thief.

Not many viable builds can put out more AoE damage than a 30/30/0/0/10 full berserker shortbow Thief, or Sword/Pistol thief.

The reason you bring a thief for high level fractals and dungeons is for damage output, thus, the only thief build to bring at high level fractals and dungeons are glass cannon builds.  Start diluting the glass cannon and the more and more useless a theif becomes.

Full glass cannon mesmer damage output pales in comparison to thief.  Full glass cannon dagger thief auto attacks crit for 3k per hit,  There really isn't much else that can do even comparable damage.

Edited by Reikou, 03 January 2013 - 04:13 PM.


#8 Darthemporer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

Hi, and thx again for the answers, first at Ropes782:
Currently im also lvl 32 Fractals, and i agree with you that the most points you mention there are nice but not realy that special ^^

View PostRopes782, on 03 January 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I have been playing thief since beta as well and am up to the lvl 30 fractals.  Each class can bring something useful to the party, but unfortunately some classes just bring more to the table.  Here are some of the highlights that the thief brings.

Dredge: Stealth.  Stealth for the pressure plates at the beginning.  Stealth for running bombs to the door.  Party stealth when blowing down the door.  Quick teleport/movement and aggro loss when using the control panels for the lava buckets on the last room.  (unfortunately good members just use spy kits to accomplish similar tricks).  Also, if your party misses a lava bucket on the boss, you can drain defiant stacks and daze the boss easy with headshot so it can't heal.

Cliffside:  Blind.  Using off-hand pistol during seal breaks is amazing.  All of the attacks from chanters and other trash mobs are affected by blind.  If you line of sight them to get them all clumped up, you will negate almost all damage.

Snowblind:  Stealth.  We can solo the first fire to take down the ice wall. (Idk if this can be done with spy kits or if mesmers can do it as well)

Aquatic:  Nothing.  We are amazing tanks in underwater with spear skill #5 (if you trait to sustains initiative) but that is not important since the fights don't need a tank.  Scorpion wire is useful for the jelly, but other classes pull as well and we have no way to drain the defiant stacks off the jelly.

Swamp:  While we don't have a lot to add, I'd still say we are the second best class for this fractal (mesmer being the best).  We avoid mobs running the wisps using stealth and can also teleport.  We have a lot of evades if we are the main target of mossman if you fight legit.  We have high mobility around the druid boss for taking out the spirit druid things or rezing people.

Ascalon:  High mobility for the final boss.  Our evades + shortbow skill #3 make us so hard to catch by the boss or his squire which is very useful if the boss goes into greatsword mode.

Volcano:  Scorpion wire and stuns using sword/pistol is decent for keeping grawl from the captives, but other classes have better enemy movement control than us.  Our excessive evading with dodge+shortbow skill #3 make it so we can avoid the agony arrows from the final boss pretty easily.

Asura:  Smokescreen + dancing dagger is awesome.  While it isn't as good as a reflect wall, its still something (some classes don't have good projectile blocking/reflecting.

Jade Maw:  Stealth to avoid tentacles and teleports to get to the crystals faster.  Nothing special like guardians binding blade but this fight isn't hard anyways.

Overall opinion: Other classes can provide more than a thief and members can achieve stealth with those blasted spy kits (I hate those consumables; makes me feel like I bring so much less to the table).  I think having a thief in the higher groups is fine, but having multiple in the same group seems unnecessary and possibly not as good as certain other classes.

As for my build, it changes depending on the fractal and the party.  I have a pure zerker gear set and a high survivability condition dmg gear set which I can switch between.  I also change major traits, utilities, and weapon sets during fractals.  I do typically have shadow refuge and blinding powder on my bar though.


Disclaimer: if people see stealth as an exploit (like using it to light the first fire in snowblind to take out the ice wall), you shouldn't!  Stealth is our core mechanic and its simply a different play style from the normal "fight to complete an objective" mentality.

@Dredge:
Sure thief invisibility is nice, but not realy needed since everyone can easyly get Ash Legion Spy Kit

@Cliffside
Here you are completly right the blind is realy sweet

@Snowblind
Same as Dredge

@Aquatic
Agree with you + all we can do a mesmer can do better :P

@Swamp
Yea our sneekines is realy usefull here but not realy needed, since Ele can do the same if not even faster, same goes for necro.

@Ascalon
I dont think thats realy a point counting for us here ^^

@Volcano
The only realy good thing i like here is the shortbow for the larvas since we can easy mow them down, but im pretty sure most over classes have aoe´s which can do the same or better.

@Asura
Yea here our smokescreen + dancing dagger gets realy usefull^. Would be interesting which other classes can create a smoke-combofield.

@Jademaw
This thing has gotten so easy that i dont think we should mention anything here ^^.

Otherwise your conclusion that thiefs are not the best partyslots, exactly fullfils my current thought.

View PostReikou, on 03 January 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Nothing in the game does more single target damage than 30/30/0/0/10 D/D full berserker thief.

Not many viable builds can put out more AoE damage than a 30/30/0/0/10 full berserker shortbow Thief, or Sword/Pistol thief.

The reason you bring a thief for high level fractals and dungeons is for damage output, thus, the only thief build to bring at high level fractals and dungeons are glass cannon builds.  Start diluting the glass cannon and the more and more useless a theif becomes.

Full glass cannon mesmer damage output pales in comparison to thief.  Full glass cannon dagger thief auto attacks crit for 3k per hit,  There really isn't much else that can do even comparable damage.

@Reiku

Reiku it may be true that full Damage thiefs can deal realy good Amounts of Damage, but still i realy think that classes like Mesmers with sword can deal nearly the same amount as we in close distance and still maintain theyre party bonus and survivability, same goes for range. And the next thing is, that you cant realy keep up as full Damagedealer in high dungeons like Arah-Explorer or Fractals 20

#9 The Shadow

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

View PostFunky Snapple, on 03 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I'm really surprised to learn that about thieves in dungeons, because I've been reading a lot about WvW and all I see is people complaining about how overpowered thieves are.
I watched this video yesterday and it really made me want to play a thief:


Thanks for linking this. I enjoyed it greatly. I am now planning a Quaggan gangbang. Never done it before :o

#10 Reikou

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostDarthemporer, on 03 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

@Reiku

Reiku it may be true that full Damage thiefs can deal realy good Amounts of Damage, but still i realy think that classes like Mesmers with sword can deal nearly the same amount as we in close distance and still maintain theyre party bonus and survivability, same goes for range. And the next thing is, that you cant realy keep up as full Damagedealer in high dungeons like Arah-Explorer or Fractals 20

Mesmers with Sword cannot do anywhere near the same amount of damage as a D/D thief.  Try it yourself.  The numbers don't even come close.  A Mesmer sword crit goes for maybe 2k.

For range, Mesmers have Greatsword which deals slightly more single target damage than Shortbow, but loses in AoE terms.  Staff doesn't even compare in terms of damage.

And for your last point.  If you cannot keep up as a full glass cannon in higher level dungeons then this is more of a player-skill issue than anything, so literally, please L2P.

Edited by Reikou, 03 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#11 Straegen

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

PvP thieves are "broken" thanks to culling and perma invisibility neither of which were meant to be a feature of the class. That said "honest" thieves need neither to gank people thanks to heavy spike damage and deaths from a thousand cuts as they are very effective even without current rendering and balance issues.

In dungeons thieves are workable just not optimal. Generally light on survival against NPCs and they rely mostly on other peoples fields as their own are generally weaker compared to strong field classes like the elementalist. They do have strong finishers but several classes do well here and mostly all classes have a solid finisher. IMO their role is mostly relegated to damage and rarely (if ever) is one needed for an optimal party balance but what they lack in PvE utility they make up for in spades in PvP.

#12 Elysen

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostFunky Snapple, on 03 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:



5 man capping a Garrison? I'm not sure if this is the players in the video being great, or the owners of the Garrison being complete and utter failures. Both is my guess.

#13 Darthemporer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostReikou, on 03 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Mesmers with Sword cannot do anywhere near the same amount of damage as a D/D thief.  Try it yourself.  The numbers don't even come close.  A Mesmer sword crit goes for maybe 2k.

For range, Mesmers have Greatsword which deals slightly more single target damage than Shortbow, but loses in AoE terms.  Staff doesn't even compare in terms of damage.

And for your last point.  If you cannot keep up as a full glass cannon in higher level dungeons then this is more of a player-skill issue than anything, so literally, please L2P.

Uhm thx for your thougths, and im still playing full glass canon in 20+ fractals, but in fractals 30+ i change traits so i get at least 14k hp. Anyway, i would appreciate if you could show me how to play in fractals lvl 30+ as full glass cannon thief.

And about the Mesmer, i dont know what you do, but i hit with normal hits up to 7k and thats just normal hits.

#14 NuclearDonut

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:27 PM

I have to agree with you OP, Thieves seem to be a little lackluster in the dungeon department. They can party stealth which is nice, but Ash Legion Spy Kits can do that too. I would argue against going glass cannon though, dungeon fights are about surviving longer than the enemy, there's no 1 shotting a boss. There's nothing I hate more than having to revive a Thief over and over and over again during a boss fight. I do like when Thieves spam blinds and stuff though. Group stealth is always nice too when someone needs to get revived.

#15 Korra

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:33 PM

ANy thief at 20+ fotm?

Right now i'm running a 25/30/0/0/15 build with valkyrie armor and bsk rest at lvl 14, my survival is amazing thanks to the evades tho when i get hit i get hit pretty hard so i was thinking if i should make a vit/tough/powe mix with bsk for 20+ fotm.

In general i'm a good thief player and right now i dont have any problem, i'm just worried once i get to lvl 20s my build will be rendered useless.

Any suggestions?

#16 Darthemporer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

View PostKorra, on 03 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

ANy thief at 20+ fotm?

Right now i'm running a 25/30/0/0/15 build with valkyrie armor and bsk rest at lvl 14, my survival is amazing thanks to the evades tho when i get hit i get hit pretty hard so i was thinking if i should make a vit/tough/powe mix with bsk for 20+ fotm.

In general i'm a good thief player and right now i dont have any problem, i'm just worried once i get to lvl 20s my build will be rendered useless.

Any suggestions?

I am Fractals 32 right now and i run 25/30/0/15/0, i use full berserk, just helm and armor are valkyre. As runes i have schollar and im doing pretty fine. And as i said at the start, i have no problems with the dungeons itself, i just feel pretty useless for partys these days ^^.

@Korra:
I know you are a very skilled thief, in fact i like your guides and builds very much ;)

Edited by Darthemporer, 03 January 2013 - 09:02 PM.


#17 The Shadow

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:25 AM

View PostDarthemporer, on 03 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

I am Fractals 32 right now and i run 25/30/0/15/0, i use full berserk, just helm and armor are valkyre. As runes i have schollar and im doing pretty fine. And as i said at the start, i have no problems with the dungeons itself, i just feel pretty useless for partys these days ^^.

Unfortunately, the most support we can offer a team (in terms of pure support) is Stealth-Rez, Smokescreen and Scorpion Wire.

That's not going to change by altering build/ gear/ play-style.

That's Anet's fault for type-casting us, leaving us very little in the way of support (which nowadays equates to usefulness).

Edited by The Shadow, 04 January 2013 - 02:28 AM.


#18 Funky Snapple

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostTrei, on 03 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

"It's so intense!"
"What does it mean?"

<starts sobbing uncontrollably!>

"The colors! Nooooooooooooooo!"

"It's too much!"

"Make it stop! MAKE IT STOP!"
"Get it away!"

<flees in terror!>

"It burns! IT BURNS!"

I never played WoW so I had to look it up... But it's true, shooting rainbows is just too awesome of a power :)

#19 sanctuaire

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:09 AM

most fellow thieves i see often on fractals 30+ aren't using full glass builds/gear that much.
loving some (inf + inf slotted) doric's and usoku's myself.

^agree with some of posts above. thieves definitely need some buffing in pve.
still, lots of ways to be useful in fractals, though not as obvious as other classes.


^just a few more from what ropes said:
asura: during the starting area you can already clusterbomb several harpies above
  through the platforms they're standing on. no fussing about avoiding the electric
  balls of doom. even then, there's smokescreen and dagger storm. smokescreeening
  ranged allies having problems with old tom, and if there's no engi shortcut in the 2nd
  jumping part, can easily stealth the way to the end, and pick off the harpies backwards
  easily.

cliffside: chest area: pretty much just spamming blinding powder on the safe spot makes it
  easy peasy. for the one divided into left and right, as long as you follow the do not kill
  all chanters in one side tech, a thief can easily charge the hammer on one side, quickly
  do a slip-shatter on the other, then get it back. (of course discounting the hammer
  corruption and all)

snow:  pretty much render most of the svanir at start weak with blind.
swamp: runspeed, shadow refuge near wisp spots being randomly guarded by mossy and the like
while waiting for team countdown.
dregde: if on a team having difficulty not dying on the bombs/ special rifle on wall part, can quickly
damage the wall for several ticks then stealthily retreat until CDs.

and yeah, maw has become so easy even without a BB guard.

and yes, most obvious things we do are the SR-ress (can easily save a team from complete wipe multiple times
with this) and smokescreen, unfortunately there are still some people who keep attacking in a down state, even when
their target has waay higher health to be able to pull off a rally ~_~

and to SB users like me, having a spammable, reliable and consistent combo blast finisher is great for party-minded
gameplay. *unfortunately* people don't really notice that i keep comboing their fields for whole group retaliation,
chaos/frost armors, 10+ stacks of might, area healing, area weakness, area stealth ect. ect. if its not SR,
they just think thieves just do damage with the sb.

.

Edited by sanctuaire, 04 January 2013 - 08:15 AM.


#20 Nemhy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:06 PM

How are condition thieves?  I mainly do dungeons and I want to make either a condition Thief or Ranger.  Both look fun but I figured I'd ask the people who actually have the class leveled :P

#21 Engel Jorgenson

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

View PostNemhy, on 04 January 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

How are condition thieves?  I mainly do dungeons and I want to make either a condition Thief or Ranger.  Both look fun but I figured I'd ask the people who actually have the class leveled :P

They are for me the best way to play FoTM LvL20+. I barely go down with a 0/0/30/20/20 actually (FoTM 26) with P/D as my main weapon set I'm hard to kill.
My build is: http://intothemists....N13jwmAjwmA;0FH

It's just a matter of opinions and tastes after all but this setup is the best for me actually.

#22 cookieeater1

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostKorra, on 03 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

ANy thief at 20+ fotm?

Right now i'm running a 25/30/0/0/15 build with valkyrie armor and bsk rest at lvl 14, my survival is amazing thanks to the evades tho when i get hit i get hit pretty hard so i was thinking if i should make a vit/tough/powe mix with bsk for 20+ fotm.

In general i'm a good thief player and right now i dont have any problem, i'm just worried once i get to lvl 20s my build will be rendered useless.

Any suggestions?
Not a thief but I've run with a thief up to scale 40 running shortbow and D/D. It's more important to know how to deal with each fractal although something like smoke screen is incredibly useful.

#23 Korra

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostDarthemporer, on 03 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

I am Fractals 32 right now and i run 25/30/0/15/0, i use full berserk, just helm and armor are valkyre. As runes i have schollar and im doing pretty fine. And as i said at the start, i have no problems with the dungeons itself, i just feel pretty useless for partys these days ^^.

@Korra:
I know you are a very skilled thief, in fact i like your guides and builds very much ;)

ahah thanks :D

I changed today to 10/30/0/15/15

3 dodges
16k Hp
3,200 power (food + oil)
41% crt chance
105% crt damage

I'm loving this!

#24 Darthemporer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:21 PM

Kora may i ask what armor, runes and sigills you use with this build?

#25 Nocturnal Lunacy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

Obviously it doesn't matter what your profession is or race or whatever. I don't give a crap what anyone says about balance, blah, blah get off your mom's %% already. If you know how to play the profession you are taking into the dungeon and know the capabilities and vulerablilties of the prof you are using then it doesn't matter. It all comes down to player skill and as if no one knew, how fast your inet and computer are. There is no such thing as "balance" in an MMORPG mainly because there are way too many variables to throw into the mix in order to calculate balance. Just having separate distinct classes IS NOT BALANCE!! As long as you study all you can about the dungeon and learn it's vulnerabilities and strengths, you can build your thief according to that and then laugh at all these morons that say "balanced groups" "have to be level 80" "want only certain classes" etc. etc etc. go put it in a crack pipe somewhere and smoke it. If you know all there is to know about the dungeon, then you already are 5 steps ahead of the rest of the group.
That being said, I Feel any class that has to battle via being invisible or come up from the side or behind is sissyish. That is what I would expect from a worthless weak mongrel. I play a thief and I don't use invisibility for anything except getting somewhere I'm not supposed to be, like places in that video. When it comes time to battle, i'm straight on without being cloaked cuz I would feel like a sissy if I were cloaked. Yes I die but not that much. It all goes with the territory when you're in wvw or pvp. In PvE I rarely die. Usually by being poisoned to death by the f***ing risen bastards.

View PostXephenon, on 03 January 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

5 man capping a Garrison? I'm not sure if this is the players in the video being great, or the owners of the Garrison being complete and utter failures. Both is my guess.

ROFLMFAOWROFLMFAO
That is what happens when it's 3am and there are maybe 10 people on the enemy server and probably in Eternal Battlegrounds and not checking the home bl. Any other time of day that would never happen cuz the garrisons are usually very busy with players.

Edited by Nocturnal Lunacy, 04 January 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#26 Ropes782

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostNocturnal Lunacy, on 04 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Obviously it doesn't matter what your profession is or race or whatever. I don't give a crap what anyone says about balance, blah, blah get off your mom's %% already. If you know how to play the profession you are taking into the dungeon and know the capabilities and vulerablilties of the prof you are using then it doesn't matter. It all comes down to player skill and as if no one knew, how fast your inet and computer are. There is no such thing as "balance" in an MMORPG mainly because there are way too many variables to throw into the mix in order to calculate balance. Just having separate distinct classes IS NOT BALANCE!! As long as you study all you can about the dungeon and learn it's vulnerabilities and strengths, you can build your thief according to that and then laugh at all these morons that say "balanced groups" "have to be level 80" "want only certain classes" etc. etc etc. go put it in a crack pipe somewhere and smoke it. If you know all there is to know about the dungeon, then you already are 5 steps ahead of the rest of the group.
I do agree with you that player skill and knowledge of the dungeon highly outweighs the benefits of simply having a certain class.  However, your language and tone you used to convey this message was unnecessary.  This thread is not about "balance" or building a 5 man party around particular classes, but instead we are discussing thief team supporting abilities for high level fractals.

View PostNocturnal Lunacy, on 04 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

That being said, any class that has to battle via being invisible or come up from the side or behind is sissyish. That is what I would expect from a worthless weak mongrel. I play a thief and I don't use invisibility for anything except getting somewhere I'm not supposed to be, like places in that video. When it comes time to battle, i'm straight on without being cloaked cuz I would feel like a sissy if I were cloaked. Yes I die but not that much. It all goes with the territory when you're in wvw or pvp. In PvE I rarely die. Usually by being poisoned to death by the f***ing risen bastards.
This is quite funny.  The thief traits and skills were designed with stealth in mind so to avoid stealth because you consider it "sissyish" seems silly (its like not using clones when playing a mesmer because its a "cheap" trick).  If you enjoy handicapping yourself and want to avoid stealth, that is fine, but you don't need to belittle the people that play the class to its full potential.

#27 Nocturnal Lunacy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostRopes782, on 04 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I do agree with you that player skill and knowledge of the dungeon highly outweighs the benefits of simply having a certain class.  However, your language and tone you used to convey this message was unnecessary.  This thread is not about "balance" or building a 5 man party around particular classes, but instead we are discussing thief team supporting abilities for high level fractals.

This comment about the "balance" of teams in dungeons was in response to somebody else that brought it up when talking about where a thief would fit in to a balanced team. I can't remember who said it and I don't feel like searching for it so I just made a general response to it.

View PostRopes782, on 04 January 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

This is quite funny.  The thief traits and skills were designed with stealth in mind so to avoid stealth because you consider it "sissyish" seems silly (its like not using clones when playing a mesmer because its a "cheap" trick).  If you enjoy handicapping yourself and want to avoid stealth, that is fine, but you don't need to belittle the people that play the class to its full potential.

Actually, if you listened or read the interviews given by Anet, the thief cloaking ability was orginally made to get to places and/or "steal" without being noticed. That was the intention. But instead people have found out they can use the stealth to basically backstab a player. I said "I feel" it is sissyish making it my opinion, not saying everyone who does this is a sissy. Well I guess I forgot to put "I feel" in the opening sentence and well amend it.
All personal feelings aside, using stealth to kill foes or solo cap in WvW or wherever, is actually a very good idea. The problem with this is that cuz of all the crying about thieves being "overpowered" anet will eventually nerf the thief's cloaking ability. But I agree somewhat with the criers but not about theives being overpowered but I do believe that there should be some kind of defense against the claoked attack in the different professions. To be attacked from behind and not having time to react or defend yourself before you're dead is demoralizing and to most it would look like the thief is overpowered. But this is all in WvW mainly and there are those that use hacks and whatnot to their advantage like when I was fighting an ele and no matter how much damage I did to this ele, his HP bar never moved. Eles are squishy for the most and when damage of 1k 2k or whatever is dished out and the hp bar doesn't move a sliver, then there is obviously something wrong.

Edited by Nocturnal Lunacy, 04 January 2013 - 08:40 PM.


#28 The Shadow

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostNocturnal Lunacy, on 04 January 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Actually, if you listened or read the interviews given by Anet, the thief cloaking ability was orginally made to get to places and/or "steal" without being noticed. That was the intention. But instead people have found out they can use the stealth to basically backstab a player. I said "I feel" it is sissyish making it my opinion, not saying everyone who does this is a sissy. Well I guess I forgot to put "I feel" in the opening sentence and well amend it.
All personal feelings aside, using stealth to kill foes or solo cap in WvW or wherever, is actually a very good idea. The problem with this is that cuz of all the crying about thieves being "overpowered" anet will eventually nerf the thief's cloaking ability. But I agree somewhat with the criers but not about theives being overpowered but I do believe that there should be some kind of defense against the claoked attack in the different professions. To be attacked from behind and not having time to react or defend yourself before you're dead is demoralizing and to most it would look like the thief is overpowered. But this is all in WvW mainly and there are those that use hacks and whatnot to their advantage like when I was fighting an ele and no matter how much damage I did to this ele, his HP bar never moved. Eles are squishy for the most and when damage of 1k 2k or whatever is dished out and the hp bar doesn't move a sliver, then there is obviously something wrong.

Anet also said every class would be capable of fulfilling every possible role in an attempt to abolish the trinity... Look what happened...

"I said "I feel" it is sissyish making it my opinion, not saying everyone who does this is a sissy."

So.. You feel that everyone who does this is a sissy because in your opinion it is sissyish...

Ok, well, aside from your opinion being absolutely and wholly wrong... flawed logic much?

I'm sorry, but you... shouldn't be spewing such absolutely twattery.... You can't kill a "squishy" bunker ele (no surprises there) and you automatically come to the conclusion (obviously an educated one) that said ele was hacking/ exploiting? Maybe you just aren't very good, have you considered that at all?

#29 Darthemporer

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

First of all, i want to thank everyone for all the answers, even the few posters who try to get this into a flaming thread.

Truth is, i still found out that our role in a party is just the one of a Damagedealer, which isnt bad at all.
Still in terms of party support all over classes can do better then we, and invisibility isnt realy needed because of the Ash Legion Spy kits.

In conclusion right now im perfectly fine to be a pure dd, as long as i have the correct party, which is in my case a guardian, a warrior, a messmer and another thief.

#30 iLag

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

View PostDarthemporer, on 05 January 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

First of all, i want to thank everyone for all the answers, even the few posters who try to get this into a flaming thread.

Truth is, i still found out that our role in a party is just the one of a Damagedealer, which isnt bad at all.
Still in terms of party support all over classes can do better then we, and invisibility isnt realy needed because of the Ash Legion Spy kits.

In conclusion right now im perfectly fine to be a pure dd, as long as i have the correct party, which is in my case a guardian, a warrior, a messmer and another thief.
This entire topic kind of drew me away from my thief. In reality they need to remove or nerf spy kits if they still want us to be unique and used as often in PvE. Elementalists can deal damage, so can mesmers,warriors etc. and they all have unique things going for them




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