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was Kuunavang linked to the ED's?

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#1 ironbound stoker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:57 AM

if Glint was originally the champion of the the elder dragon Kralkatorrik was  Kuunavang an elder dragon champion as well?

Edited by Mockingjay74, 04 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.
Removed formatting.


#2 draxynnic

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:24 AM

Short answer is: We don't know. There are theories that link her to an elder dragon of Cantha, generally taken (through looking at the powers of Kuunavang and other creatures that appear to be her relatives) to be an elder dragon related to stars or the sky, and possibly an elder dragon that has come to regard Cantha as its own similar to how Jormag views the Sons of Svanir. On the other hand, Glint's crystalline nature makes her significantly different to 'conventional' life forms that suggests that she might be closer linked to something unconventional (such as dragon minions), while Kuunavang's appearance is entirely organic.

So it's possible that Kuunavang is a champion, but it's also possible that the dragons of Cantha are an independent evolution, and Kuunavang is nothing more than the most significant of them.
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#3 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:41 AM

As drax said, we don't know (yet). But to elaborate on his answer for the possibility of her being tied to an Elder Dragon - here are the facts we know:
  • Kuunavang is a very powerful dragon, but unlike Glint and - by current hints, the Elder Dragons (though in a broad sense) - and other dragon champions, Kuunavang is not similar in appearance - both in general shape (being more serpentine than european dragon style, and as drax noted being more fleshy in appearance).
  • Kuunavang was put on par to Glint, though this was done back in 2007. Later on (in 2009), Glint was compared to Rotscale and never again to Kuunavang (note: we don't know if Rotscale is linked to an ED either).
  • Jotun history tells us of six Elder Dragons - and we know of five outright with a sixth hinted on: Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, the deep sea dragon, and the sixth being hinted as named "Mordremoth" and tied to plants. The only aspects of nature Kuunevang is really tied to, is sky/air/stars (via the whole Celestial thing). If Kuunavang is tied to an Elder Dragon, its of an Elder Dragon not mentioned by the known jotun records. (Note: no, Kuunavang is unlikely tied to the deep sea dragon, due to the complete lack of connections to water and tentacles with Kuunavang; and the DSD is highly unlikely to be in Cantha, given our known knowledge it is in or near the deepest areas of the Unending Ocean).
  • There is no mention or indication that the jotun knew of Cantha or at least the ongoings of Canthan lands, so there may have been Elder Dragon activities unknown to jotun.
  • A Durmand Priory scholar makes mention of a Canthan calendar era while researching Elder Dragons, which gives hints to ED-related activities in Cantha's past.
So really at this point it's a 50/50 chance.

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#4 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:30 AM

I would personally be inclined to say no since she was susceptible to Shrio's corruption. But even then that doesn't really provide us with anything concrete.

#5 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 03:49 AM

Shiro was an Envoy nearly god-like powers. Who is to say the gods can't effect the champions and minions of ed's? Not to mention the fact that we (who played GW1) killed Rot Scale and Abbadon, defeated Glint, Shiro, and Kuunavang. And we who have finished story in GW2 have killed an ED. Everything in GW is kill able .

I think the Factions campaign was Oriental with all eastern influence and story. I also think the devs have a hard time with GW1 lore dealing with Cantha and ED's. As story stands now; there's going to have to be some serious deviation or "unknown" lore added for Cantha to fit with GW2 story line. Really NF's premise that Abadon was using the Seer to manipulate Shiro was way out there.

That being said Factions is still my favorite and I hope it is the first expansion!

#6 draxynnic

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 05 January 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

(Note: no, Kuunavang is unlikely tied to the deep sea dragon, due to the complete lack of connections to water and tentacles with Kuunavang; and the DSD is highly unlikely to be in Cantha, given our known knowledge it is in or near the deepest areas of the Unending Ocean).
Actually, to play devil's advocate, there are some minor connections - Kuunavang, along with Saltsprays and kirin, have fish-like fins and catfish-like whiskers, the other form of Canthan dragon (the Rockhides) are explicitly dragon turtles and thus can be associated with water, and then there's the whole 'how is it that the sea life of the Jade Sea all managed to grow legs and walk on the petrified waves' thing. However, the counterpoint is none of the Canthan dragons have powers associated with water, as would be expected if they were minions of the DSD - in fact, the common thread indicates a connection to air.

View PostFlaming_Foxx, on 05 January 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I would personally be inclined to say no since she was susceptible to Shrio's corruption. But even then that doesn't really provide us with anything concrete.
Pervasive though it might be, there is nothing to substantiate the idea that being a dragon minion makes you resistant to corruption, from other dragons or any other source.

View PostShezuTsukai, on 05 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Really NF's premise that Abadon was using the Seer to manipulate Shiro was way out there.
Not really - a lot of people had called that the Fortune Teller was manipulating Shiro to kill Emperor Angsiyan from well before Nightfall released. Nightfall just gave us the motivation.
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#7 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:39 AM

I bet Kuunavang is the fleshy minion of the Celestial Elder Dragon, who decided (a rather long time ago) that rather than fighting over the noms avaliable on Tyria by making minions and conquering the known world, it prefers to order takeout instead via the Celestial Ministry. The massive slaughter of Tyrian wildlife during the short span of Canthan New Years (by thousands of heroes, no less) fuels some sort of foreign devilry, which generates enough magic to feed the Celestial Elder Dragon for a year, or alternatively, because the Celestial Elder Dragon lives in the Mists (which is probably made of magic), it has no need for food (unlike its brethren) but prefers the offerings as a treat. ;)

In order to trick the silly Canthans into gathering all the food for it, however, it requires a physical presence to spook the population. Dragons such as Kuunavang and Albax (remember? the luck-giving dragon?) serve this very purpose, and by the very nature of mythological propagation, these servants of the Celestial Elder Dragon don't even need to do much owing to the Canthan's own superstitions about dragons being aloof and slow to act and other traditionalist nonsense.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 05 January 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#8 draxynnic

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

While I think Steadfast's post above is not intended to be taken seriously (for instance, we know the EDs consume magic rather than traditional food), it does actually come close to one of the serious theories - that instead of aiming to destroy all civilisation as we know it like the Tyrian Elder Dragons do, the Canthan dragon instead operates by claiming an existing one. If that's the case, then the Canthan attitude of dragons could be something that's been carefully cultivated over the centuries by champions such as Kuunavang and Albax so that when the CED arises, the people of Cantha welcome it rather than resisting.

However, this is, of course, entirely hypothetical.
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#9 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 05 January 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Actually, to play devil's advocate, there are some minor connections - Kuunavang, along with Saltsprays and kirin, have fish-like fins and catfish-like whiskers, the other form of Canthan dragon (the Rockhides) are explicitly dragon turtles and thus can be associated with water, and then there's the whole 'how is it that the sea life of the Jade Sea all managed to grow legs and walk on the petrified waves' thing. However, the counterpoint is none of the Canthan dragons have powers associated with water, as would be expected if they were minions of the DSD - in fact, the common thread indicates a connection to air.
Fish != water

The deep sea dragon holds no known connection to fins or fish qualities - it corrupts water into tentacles, and that's the best we get in the DSD's knowledge. By "associated with water" I meant made out of - in the same manner that Glint is made out of crystals. Though it may turn out that DSD minions grow fish-like scales and fins or flippers as well as tentacles, nothing really indicates such yet.

As to how sea life evolved to breath air - well, the only real oddities were the Irukanji and the Scuttle Fish. And the former, in GW2, use wind rider models - indicating that they may be distant wind rider relatives (or retcon'd from jellyfish). All the other sealife were crustacean (the leviathan species), or with an amphibian appearance (if not outright amphibian - the turtle dragons and whatever those assassin fish were called).

View Postdraxynnic, on 05 January 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Pervasive though it might be, there is nothing to substantiate the idea that being a dragon minion makes you resistant to corruption, from other dragons or any other source.
Actually, Crucible of Eternity shows that dragon minions can indeed be corrupted by other dragon energies - Kudu's Monster, Kudu, and Subject Alpha all show this.

And if dragons can corrupt others' minions, who's to say that other entities cannot corrupt them too? After all, isn't that what the forgotten ritual which gave Glint free will effectively does?

View PostSteadfast Gao Shun, on 05 January 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Dragons such as Kuunavang and Albax (remember? the luck-giving dragon?) serve this very purpose

View Postdraxynnic, on 05 January 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

If that's the case, then the Canthan attitude of dragons could be something that's been carefully cultivated over the centuries by champions such as Kuunavang and Albax so that when the CED arises, the people of Cantha welcome it rather than resisting.
Issue with bringing up Albax - and indeed all Saltspray Dragons - is this line:

Quote

Most of my kin were corrupted by the Jade Wind two hundred years ago. Yet only I remain, the sole living incarnation of good fortune in all the land, and I will not harm you.
Kuunavang doesn't seem to have been corrupted by the Jade Wind, but Shiro's second appearance. So if Albax was the last of his kind, uncorrupted, then that would mean Kuunavang isn't of his kind, wouldn't it?

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#10 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

Didn't the Cantha people worship Dragons? If so, maybe they haven't really attacked or harmed anyone over there in Cantha, who knows.

And since Cantha became isolated from all other continents I'd love to see how they explain the disappearance of Assassins and Ritualists.

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 05 January 2013 - 01:42 PM.


#11 DaaX

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

In regards to the theory of some species being related to Bubbles (DSD), isn't the Jade Maw made out of tentacles and in the Jade Sea? I know he's currently known to be in the unending ocean but who's to say he's never been to Cantha or has never sent a champion there? While its a bit of a stretch to assume that everything draconic or aquatic is related to an Elder Dragon, the possibility of Bubbles being involved could make sense.

I've also seen this Leviathan on the GW1Wiki, having not played the game extensively I don't know the exact nature or its source of creation but it does have a worm-like figure which could be seen as a "tentacle" and I remember seen a few of those in the Jade Sea of GW1.

There was an interesting article posted on GuildMag, about the Dragons of Cantha, a bit before GW2 came out. Some of the obeservations made by the writter could be outdated by now but here's a link for those of you who might have missed it: ARTICLE

One last observation, as pointed out by Perm Shadow Form, the people from Cantha worshipped Dragons. Isn't it exactly what the Sons of Svanir are doing? Unless they worshipped an ED which couldn't corrupt the way Jormag does, shouldn't all Canthans be corrupted dragon minions by now? Just a thought.

#12 Gilles VI

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 05 January 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Not really - a lot of people had called that the Fortune Teller was manipulating Shiro to kill Emperor Angsiyan from well before Nightfall released. Nightfall just gave us the motivation.

When I played factions/nightfall I didn't care much about the lore, could you give me a short summary because there isn't like a "story" on the wiki (or I just don't find the correct pages?)?
Or should I start a new thread for that?


/doh just found the sticky "lore summary" :)

Edited by Gilles VI, 05 January 2013 - 04:53 PM.


#13 Steadfast Gao Shun

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

I strive to entertain. ;)

Albax can be explained in context of unintentionally unreliable narrator - it seems highly improbable that he is responsible for all the luck in Cantha, even though he himself claims that he is the source of all "good luck". I interpret him as a river spirit similar in context to the tudi gods in Chinese mythology, so it is entirely probable that while he IS telling the truth, there are other dragons out there that he aren't aware of.

On a more serious note, posters on 2ch contend that Anet basically didn't have the EDs in mind when they were writing the story for Factions, so they're currently taking bets as to how they're going to shoehorn in the concept, if at all. A popular theory is that the Celestial Elder Dragon is a neutral to benign force, and one interpretation of its "corruption" isn't corruption as much as it extends particular emotions and ideals. There's a lot of WMGs out there that really don't have much basis in lore, and unless we get more lore from Anet, one guess is as good as the other. :P

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 05 January 2013 - 08:17 PM.


#14 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 05 January 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Didn't the Cantha people worship Dragons?
No. They worship the gods (depending on when - five or six) and their ancestors. But not dragons. Cantha is just also called the "Empire of the Dragon" (or Dragon Empire for short). They also revere the celestials, among them there is the Celestial Dragon who is the focus of the Dragon Festival - the celestials are elevated souls though, with the Celestial Dragon being Tahmu, a former empress who died during a naga invasion.

They don't worship dragons.

View PostDaaX, on 05 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

In regards to the theory of some species being related to Bubbles (DSD), isn't the Jade Maw made out of tentacles and in the Jade Sea? I know he's currently known to be in the unending ocean but who's to say he's never been to Cantha or has never sent a champion there? While its a bit of a stretch to assume that everything draconic or aquatic is related to an Elder Dragon, the possibility of Bubbles being involved could make sense.

I've also seen this Leviathan on the GW1Wiki, having not played the game extensively I don't know the exact nature or its source of creation but it does have a worm-like figure which could be seen as a "tentacle" and I remember seen a few of those in the Jade Sea of GW1.

There was an interesting article posted on GuildMag, about the Dragons of Cantha, a bit before GW2 came out. Some of the obeservations made by the writter could be outdated by now but here's a link for those of you who might have missed it: ARTICLE

One last observation, as pointed out by Perm Shadow Form, the people from Cantha worshipped Dragons. Isn't it exactly what the Sons of Svanir are doing? Unless they worshipped an ED which couldn't corrupt the way Jormag does, shouldn't all Canthans be corrupted dragon minions by now? Just a thought.
The thing about the Jade Maw is that it's within the Mists - dragon minions wouldn't be there (except for Jormag's minions due to the Sons of Svanir capturing a havroun and opening portals that way). To me, the Jade Maw seems to be some uber Kraken (possibly the kraken getting a redesign with GW2) given its tentacles, and the fact that you can see a wurm in a block of jade (and in GW1, Leviathans used wurm animations).

I would not consider Leviathans to be DSD minions - or the Jade Maw. Main reason is that the minions are made from water, and the Leviathan is a lot like a giant caterpillar, while the Jade Maw seems to be some mixture of torment demon, Leviathan, and kraken.

And again: Canthans did not worship dragons. They just had a lot of dragon influences in their art. Partially due to the Celestial Dragon (a former human empress who's spirit was elevated to what is effectively demi-godhood) and how she aided in restoring the empire after the Jade Wind.

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#15 Brynjar

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:31 AM

I don't remember anything about it being a former human empress, but the Celestial Dragon was basically just a counterpart to all the other Celestial Insert-Animal-Here that were based off of constellations, right? Paralleling the Chinese zodiac and such. So there wasn't any actual relationship to the Elder Dragons of current concern.

Out of ignorance, though, when did we learn that Bubbles turns water into tentacles ala Morpha from LoZ:OoT?

#16 Lysand

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostBrynjar, on 06 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Out of ignorance, though, when did we learn that Bubbles turns water into tentacles ala Morpha from LoZ:OoT?

It's in The Movement of the World, published in 2007,

Quote

In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.

And it was referenced (at least, I think that's what they were referring to) in some of the posters from The Lost Shores update.

Edited by Lysand, 06 January 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#17 Brynjar

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:01 AM

Ahh, thanks, Lysand. Shows how many holes my memory has in it. I don't remember seeing many tentacles horrors in "every lake and river of the land", though. Unless the Quaggan count as tentacled horrors. That'd be an interesting tactic - a dragon that corrupts things into becoming adorable. How would we fight it?

#18 draxynnic

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:34 AM

Working through the various things to comment on in sequence...

I acknowledged in my own post that the fish thing was a fairly minor connection - but in truth we don't know enough about the DSD to rule it out, and fishlike qualities may be part of its signature rather than tentacles specifically. It may be that tentacles are only a specific case while resemblances to see life are a general case - and, besides, the barbels on kirin especially can be compared to short tentacles. Personally, I consider it unlikely, but there is a tentative link that can be made.

Unlike this idea that dragon minions cannot be further corrupted.

When it comes to Kuunavang and Albax - chronologically speaking, we meet Albax before we free Kuunavang, so at that point he WAS the only sane dragon on the Jade Sea that we know of.

On the fractals - while Jormag is the only dragon that we know of to be assaulting the Mists, keep in mind that the fractals do seem to be reflections of things that have happened elsewhere (or that might happen, or so on). The Jade Maw we fight, then, might not be a dragon minion itself, but may be a reflection in the Mists of a dragon champion that does (or did, or might in the future) exist in the Jade Sea. Of course, it could also just be a superpowered kraken... but on the other hand, that might be the form that champions of the DSD take. Maybe Zhu Hanuku will turn out to have been a minor champion of the DSD all along.
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#19 DaaX

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:54 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 06 January 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

On the fractals - while Jormag is the only dragon that we know of to be assaulting the Mists, keep in mind that the fractals do seem to be reflections of things that have happened elsewhere (or that might happen, or so on). The Jade Maw we fight, then, might not be a dragon minion itself, but may be a reflection in the Mists of a dragon champion that does (or did, or might in the future) exist in the Jade Sea. Of course, it could also just be a superpowered kraken... but on the other hand, that might be the form that champions of the DSD take. Maybe Zhu Hanuku will turn out to have been a minor champion of the DSD all along.

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 05 January 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

The thing about the Jade Maw is that it's within the Mists - dragon minions wouldn't be there (except for Jormag's minions due to the Sons of Svanir capturing a havroun and opening portals that way). To me, the Jade Maw seems to be some uber Kraken (possibly the kraken getting a redesign with GW2) given its tentacles, and the fact that you can see a wurm in a block of jade (and in GW1, Leviathans used wurm animations).

As stated by Draxynnic, the Fractals are a reflection of events, the beings we meet there aren't necessarely "alive". I wouldn't rule out the fact that dragon minions or things corrupted by the ED could be present in the dungeons. In fact, the Snowblind Fractal features the Sons of Svanir (who do worship Jormag) as well as Icebrood Wolves (Those are affected by Jormag's corrupted).


View PostKonig Des Todes, on 05 January 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I would not consider Leviathans to be DSD minions - or the Jade Maw. Main reason is that the minions are made from water, and the Leviathan is a lot like a giant caterpillar, while the Jade Maw seems to be some mixture of torment demon, Leviathan, and kraken.

Given how much we know about the Dragons' effects on Cantha and how much of the lore has been twisted to fit the new story, nearly everything could be a dragon minion and everything could have been corrupted by dragons if we haven't seen or heard of it yet (which kinda goes back to the first reply in this thread, "we don't know".) The GW1 models as I've said, are a stretch, we do know that Bubbles creates tentacle-like minions but it may not be the exclusive form of minions he builds. The main thing which goes againts this theory is that all of those things seemed quite alive and awake when the Jade Wind "froze" them (given how close to the surface some of them are). Then agaiiin, if those were dragon minions, and if they were awake during Factions, it could point to a possiblity of Kuunavang being a champion ruling over those creatures (or any other draconic creature in Cantha). It's wild and improbable, but I'm puting it out there.

#20 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostBrynjar, on 06 January 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

I don't remember anything about it being a former human empress, but the Celestial Dragon was basically just a counterpart to all the other Celestial Insert-Animal-Here that were based off of constellations, right? Paralleling the Chinese zodiac and such. So there wasn't any actual relationship to the Elder Dragons of current concern.
This is where we find out the Celestial Dragon's name.  We only know the original identities of the Celestial Dragon, Turtle, Kirin, Phoenix, and Pig. There's a total of 14 known Celestials currently.

View Postdraxynnic, on 06 January 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I acknowledged in my own post that the fish thing was a fairly minor connection - but in truth we don't know enough about the DSD to rule it out, and fishlike qualities may be part of its signature rather than tentacles specifically. It may be that tentacles are only a specific case while resemblances to see life are a general case - and, besides, the barbels on kirin especially can be compared to short tentacles. Personally, I consider it unlikely, but there is a tentative link that can be made.
I was pointing, actually, to the fact that it's said to twist water - though only a single sentence, this sentence shows that it only corrupts water. Much like how Primordus only corrupts rock and lava. This may not be the case, but this is the only evidence to such.

I wasn't saying what they turn into. However, given how icebrood become ice, branded become crystal, and risen become rotting undead (even if immediately raised from a fresh corpse), one would expect the DSD's minions to become like water, rather than fishy. That follows the trend of the Elder Dragons' corruption.

I never said that the DSD's signature in corruption is tentacles. I've been saying it is water.

And both Kirin and Saltspray Dragons (and in turn Kuunavang) lack water in their bodies.

View Postdraxynnic, on 06 January 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

On the fractals - while Jormag is the only dragon that we know of to be assaulting the Mists, keep in mind that the fractals do seem to be reflections of things that have happened elsewhere (or that might happen, or so on). The Jade Maw we fight, then, might not be a dragon minion itself, but may be a reflection in the Mists of a dragon champion that does (or did, or might in the future) exist in the Jade Sea. Of course, it could also just be a superpowered kraken... but on the other hand, that might be the form that champions of the DSD take. Maybe Zhu Hanuku will turn out to have been a minor champion of the DSD all along.
Issue with this is that each fractal focuses not only on a location, but a time as well.

And the Jade Sea has been melting since GW1 - we even see puddles of water in Factions' time, though that may be caused by rainfall, and in EN's timeframe its said that people can see liquid underneath the solid jade. This would mean that 200 years later, it'd be pretty much liquified again - thus the Solid Oceanic Fractal couldn't be post-DSD's awakening.

As to Zhu Hanuku being a DSD champion - again, body lacks water. Unless you count utilizing solidified water as armor - which I don't.

View PostDaaX, on 06 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

As stated by Draxynnic, the Fractals are a reflection of events, the beings we meet there aren't necessarely "alive". I wouldn't rule out the fact that dragon minions or things corrupted by the ED could be present in the dungeons. In fact, the Snowblind Fractal features the Sons of Svanir (who do worship Jormag) as well as Icebrood Wolves (Those are affected by Jormag's corrupted).
True, but as drax and I both said, the Sons of Svanir - and in turn Jormag - have access to the Mists. You can see this in Wayfarer Foothills, the norn Defend the Mists storyline, and at least 2 skill challenges where blue portals (one called "Frozen Portal") spawn icebrood (these portals using the same model as portals to the Mists that the SoS spawn in Wayfarer and the storyline).

View PostDaaX, on 06 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Given how much we know about the Dragons' effects on Cantha and how much of the lore has been twisted to fit the new story, nearly everything could be a dragon minion and everything could have been corrupted by dragons if we haven't seen or heard of it yet (which kinda goes back to the first reply in this thread, "we don't know".)
That's a pretty damn big assumption to make. I mean, there's very little of Prophecies actually related to the Elder Dragons themselves - Glint and possibly the Searing, and possibly Rotscale. But beyond that, just that the Six Gods settled in Arah because they felt powerful magic which turned out to be Zhaitan (and according to a DP scholar, they didn't know it was Zhaitan/an Elder Dragon who was the source of said power). Other things have changed - a lot of other things - but not in relation to the Elder Dragons, tbh. There's expansions, like on the seer and mursaat history, but no shoehorning in like what'd have to happen if 90% of Cantha is related to an Elder Dragon (which would be an accurate number if the empire's origins, celestials, Kuunavang, kirin, kraken, and/or leviathans are related to an ED - be it DSD or another seventh one).

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#21 draxynnic

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

It's an old bone of contention, but I personally also have my doubts that Tah Mu is necessarily the same being as the Celestial Dragon Spirit that is honoured during the Dragon Festival. Instead, I have a feeling that Tah Mu and Hanjai may both have tapped into a seperate, third power.

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 06 January 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

And both Kirin and Saltspray Dragons (and in turn Kuunavang) lack water in their bodies.
Um... you do know what proportion of the body of a typical organic creature is formed of dihydrogen monoxide, right? :P

More seriously, though, the point is that it cannot be ruled out beyond reasonable doubt. Balance of probabilities? Sure, but we just don't have enough to say with certainty yet. That one sentence in the Movement could have been an oversimplification of the situation (with the exception of Primordus, the dragons we see have a mix of created and corrupted minions - the DSD may be the same, with some minions being organic in nature and some being formed purely from water).

When it comes to the Jade Sea - I'm pretty sure the puddles we see in-game are the result of rainful, runoff, and similar sources. Certainly, no-one seems to make a big deal out of it in Factions. Something seems to have happened since Shiro's (or Abaddon's) defeat that's weakening the Jade Wind, but we don't know how long that procedure was going to take, nor do we know the time at which minions of any particular dragon might have become active. What we see may be a reenactment of the defeat of a champion of the DSD by Canthan heroes. I stress the word 'may' - I'm inclined to think it's more likely not to be the case - but I don't think it can yet be ruled out.
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