36 replies to this topic

[Minion]

The Basics to Consistently Smooth Dungeons

The basics of team-based games are generally quite obvious, yet time after time people complain that dungeons are either too difficult or PUGs are too stupid. This idea will start to create an elitist mentality over time and develop requirements to enter dungeons; equipment checks, achievement points, GREATSWORD GUARDS ONLY. To stamp this out early on, here are most of the common ways to keep a party from swaying from glory without resorting to cheap gimmicks and exploits.

Firstly, skill synergy isn't important. You can run with five thieves or five mesmers and as long as they all know what to do, how and when to dodge, they won't die horribly and your target will die rapidly. No messing about with that setup.

The key to smooth dungeons, anyway, has six steps:

1)Communication.
The most crucial of all. Team communication is key to the success of any dungeon run. You can enter a dungeon with four teammates having never entered the zone, but as long as you can command and explain what to do, where to stand, etc. you will be fine. Tell them what to look out for (i.e. kholer's golfswing needs to be dodged, tell them to save their endurance for it.). If there are multiple options to do one event- skip or complete, then let them know, especially if they're pugs.

2)Focus.
Team synergy doesn't really exist in GW2, but the more enemies there are, the more chance they'll down one of you. You want to have a designated caller to call targets and have everyone smash it. Professions with heavy single-target damage suddenly become relevant when you understand individual foes need to die faster than a whole mob. Don't feel like you're bossing the team on what to attack; it benefits every profession. Focusing conditions onto one target will then make a necromancer's Epidemic even stronger. With Binding Chains, a guardian can gather everything together and you can enjoy spiking out single-targets while everything else also gets hit by unfocused AoE from greatswords, elemental spells, bombs and clusterbobombs. The outcome is everything dies faster.

3) Duck, Dodge, Dip, Dive and Dodge. Dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge.
It would be best if everyone knew what the dungeon held in store for them before entering, but that's not always the case. However, you *know* that this game is all about evading attacks to stay alive. Toughness and Vitality do little more than make it more likely for enemies to aggro you; if you get hit, you're still likely to go down. Dodging is key, and once you're out of dodge meter, you best make sure they're not going to attack you. Kholer in AC is a good example; you should always save one bar of endurance for his golf-swing animation, which is when you dodge to evade instant misfortune. Look for the tells in the animations and it's easy. Once the whole team understands this, you can run full glass-cannon setups and it doesn't feel any different to 3 guard, 2 war teams, etc. Take who's available. (albeit necs op)

4) Reviving team mates The Importance of Rallying.
Reviving the team isn't always the best idea; it can cut into your already limited DPS after losing a man on the field and leave your team up a certain creek without a certain instrument. Having a focused target means it's less likely to die after downing. Keep attacking the target if the enemy is not focusing you and have enough health to out-live it; bandage is the last resort. If you see an enemy with lower health, call it and hope your team switch. This prevents you from becoming too much of a burden on the team, limiting their DPS, effectively, by 2+ players. This is more important than ever now; one does not simply respawn immediately after death.

5) Luring.
Don't underestimate the importance of luring; especially bosses. Pulling single bosses can mean life and death, for example in TA pfwdfwd, hotw p3, SE p1, etc. Take those encounters slow and remember that prep doesn't take as long as respawning

6) (i herd u liek) mobskips.
Skipping content to avoid long or difficult encounters is performed in almost every party these days, to optimise runtime and therefore earn more from the chests and bosses over time. All professions can run past any mob reliably. The thief has the greatest mobility of all, with AoE stealth/regen, many shadowsteps and a perma +25% IMS signet. The mesmer is quite similar with the shadowsteps and cloaks/decoys while the guardian can bruteforce spam 0s cast heals and Retreat for Swiftness/Aegis.  

When attempting to run past mobs, prepare your utilities that offer the most swiftness, damage reduction, regeneration and at least one stun-break. Remember:
   a. Never waste your dodges because bored; use them when being fired at.
   b. Use your IMS upon entering a mob, not to simply speed up your run (if it's a far distance).
   c. Prepare to use your stun break or stability if anything goes tits up.
   d. Travel as a team, ensuring everyone's safe-journey.

Happy dungeoneering.

Edited by Minion, 05 March 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[Fenice_86]

I would add the importance of watching and taking advantage of combo fields and blast/projectile/leap finishers

[Gilles VI]

• As Fenice said, learn to watch party member skills.
  Howmany times have I seen people die from ranged attacks, even though I had wall of reflection up, but they went ahead of it..
  
  
• Don't start to revive people if an enemy is almost down, just kill him and the downed will rally.
  
  
• Don't be a prick, just accept every profession, but explain tactics before tough fights, and maybe even ask in beginning of the run if a specific profession can bring a certain skill (elementalist with frostbow in AC comes to mind)
  
  
• Don't go melee if you don't a know certain (dangerous) boss, especially glass cannon thiefs/warriors.
  Learn the encounter and only then go melee.

Edited by Gilles VI, 07 January 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

You forgot gearchecking party members.  I weed out so many bad players that way.  I estimate that like 80-90% of players are in useless/subpar gear.

[Minion]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 07 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You forgot gearchecking party members.  I weed out so many bad players that way.  I estimate that like 80-90% of players are in useless/subpar gear.

For optimisation, sure. If you want to speedclear, go full level 80s, optimal gear, mobskips (i herd u liek), and "best" party composition (which is something like guard, war, nec, thief, x) but again, it's not essential. The "bad players" won't be there if they follow the guidelines to playing well, by definition.

@Gilles; I melee all the things first time and learn what downed/killed me if that indeed happens; and I'm glass cannon thief.

[Mjölner]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 07 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You forgot gearchecking party members.  I weed out so many bad players that way.  I estimate that like 80-90% of players are in useless/subpar gear.

I myself, never do this. If it's a PuG, there's always one (or more) who will ask "Anyone new?" and promptly explain the encounters if they get a "yes". So far, and having been in subpar gear for a while before upgrading, that has worked near-perfectly.


Uh, to add to this list... if you see a mob, be it a scrawny graveling and giant ogre, preparing a massive attack or other special (looks like they're sucking in dust): MOVE the hell away!

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Minion, on 07 January 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

For optimisation, sure. If you want to speedclear, go full level 80s, optimal gear, mobskips (i herd u liek), and "best" party composition (which is something like guard, war, nec, thief, x) but again, it's not essential. The "bad players" won't be there if they follow the guidelines to playing well, by definition.

@Gilles; I melee all the things first time and learn what downed/killed me if that indeed happens; and I'm glass cannon thief.

I've seen people in 20+ fractals with blue gear.  Then when I go wtf they call me a gearsnob and ragequit.  So yeah, good to check.

[The Shadow]

I think an important point that you neglected to mention is;

Sometimes it simply isn't wise to skip certain mobs/ patrols. Most of the time, as I'm sure you are aware, they end in disaster because somebody fails to listen/ comply/ comprehend exactly what is going on. So in an effort to stay clear of FATALITY, sometimes it's worth killing stuff old-school style instead of needlessly complicating matters. That being said, skipping encounters does have it's place.

[Minion]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 07 January 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

I've seen people in 20+ fractals with blue gear.  Then when I go wtf they call me a gearsnob and ragequit.  So yeah, good to check.

See my previous statements plz. They may have a point; even though they really should have exotics by level 20 fractals, it's not necessary.

@Shadow; skipping is another optimisation thing, but it's down to the competency of the team as a whole. Mesmers, thieves, guardians, necros and eles are all good runners, and warriors can absorb a lot of hits. Engies seem not to have a chance in hell, though. If you're with new players to the area, a simple explanation before you plough through content may be wise.

I will add the note on skipping, though, and how to do it successfully.

[NeoPomStar]

You should always revive your fellow teamates (from down state, not death state) if you can as fast as possible if it does not put you in harms way.  In dungeons, mobs don't die right away- it takes a bit of time for even 5 people to kill some of the vet mobs in there.  If you don't pick up your team mates when they are down, you are only carrying their part of the burden and will take longer.  It only takes a few seconds if more than 1 person res a downed teammate.

One thing you missed that is really important I think are the potions that reduce damage and increase damage at the same time.  Many of the 2nd rate potions (-8% damage from mobs and do +9% damage to certain types of mobs) are as cheap as 20c-50c each and last 30 min.  These potions can be combined with food buffs like the mango pies that gives 88+ hp regeneration per sec.  If you are rich, you can get the high end potions that lasts 1 hr and gives -10% incoming damage and +10% out going damage, which most costs about 1s each.

Edited by NeoPomStar, 07 January 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[draxynnic]

As a counterpoint to the above - if things go badly and you ARE defeated, unless it's obvious that the encounter is going to be over in the time it would take for you to run back or some other unusual circumstance is in play, waypoint IMMEDIATELY. If things are bad enough that players are being defeated, they're probably also bad enough that the remaining players simply can't afford to take the time to res a defeated ally.

And if the worst happens and there is a wipe or near-wipe, a fast waypoint may be the difference between getting back just in time to relieve the last player standing and having to restart from scratch.

[lujate]

Of all the things mentioned, bad skipping is the problem I see most often.  Dungeon/path has a lot to do with it.  CoF P1 is not normally an issue, but in TA (all paths) it is often a recipe for disaster with PUG's.

[Minion]

lujate, on 08 January 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Of all the things mentioned, bad skipping is the problem I see most often.  Dungeon/path has a lot to do with it.  CoF P1 is not normally an issue, but in TA (all paths) it is often a recipe for disaster with PUG's.

Same for AC any-path. I like to do a ramp skip, rushing past the gravelings after killing the Queen Spider "bonus event". I run up and disable traps for the less abled and some still die to scavengers =/

+added the note on waypointing immediately after death. That is rather important :>

Edited by Minion, 08 January 2013 - 03:30 AM.

[Gilles VI]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 07 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You forgot gearchecking party members.  I weed out so many bad players that way.  I estimate that like 80-90% of players are in useless/subpar gear.

God..
It's not because someone doesn't have exotics he's a bad player..
I only agree for gearchecks for fractals lvl20+, for other instances it's just being a prick.

Minion, on 07 January 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

@Gilles; I melee all the things first time and learn what downed/killed me if that indeed happens; and I'm glass cannon thief.

Maybe but you really shouldn't consider yourself as a standard (skill-wise) player.

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 January 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Gilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

God..
It's not because someone doesn't have exotics he's a bad player..
I only agree for gearchecks for fractals lvl20+, for other instances it's just being a prick.

I feel like a lot of people I kick for not being DPS-spec don't really understand the concept of I don't want to be doing this run for the next two hours.  I don't care if the dungeon is easy, I don't care if you think you can support, I don't care if you're so desperate for a party because your build sucks and no one will take you, I want to get shit done.  In fact, if the dungeon is easy, all the more reason to go max DPS because anything else is totally unnecessary.

Also, I don't get why people are surprised when they join a party specifically advertising for DPS, and they get kicked because they are not DPS.  I suspect people are just feeling entitled and expect other people to put in double effort to compensate for their being useless, and then get offended when someone isn't willing to do that.  I just had a cleric ranger (lol) throw a massive fit at me today for exactly that reason.

It's a serious problem.  People getting offended because I want a full team of people who are useful, so we are efficient.  They don't want to be useful, they don't have to join my parties in the first place.  I specifically ask for DPS in no uncertain terms in all my LFGs, it's not like I'm keeping it a secret and kicking them right at the end of the dungeon.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 08 January 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Gilles VI]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 08 January 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

I feel like a lot of people I kick for not being DPS-spec don't really understand the concept of I don't want to be doing this run for the next two hours.  I don't care if the dungeon is easy, I don't care if you think you can support, I don't care if you're so desperate for a party because your build sucks and no one will take you, I want to get shit done.  In fact, if the dungeon is easy, all the more reason to go max DPS because anything else is totally unnecessary.

Also, I don't get why people are surprised when they join a party specifically advertising for DPS, and they get kicked because they are not DPS.  I suspect people are just feeling entitled and expect other people to put in double effort to compensate for their being useless, and then get offended when someone isn't willing to do that.  I just had a cleric ranger (lol) throw a massive fit at me today for exactly that reason.

It's a serious problem.  People getting offended because I want a full team of people who are useful, so we are efficient.  They don't want to be useful, they don't have to join my parties in the first place.  I specifically ask for DPS in no uncertain terms in all my LFGs, it's not like I'm keeping it a secret and kicking them right at the end of the dungeon.

So my support ele who can stack 25 might on entire team, remove conditions, and provide lots of combo fields, and lots of bleed degen wouldn't have a place in your team?
After all ele isn't one of the big DPS professions.

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 January 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

You can easily get plenty of team might stacks without having to sacrifice all your DPS to do it.  Most of my guild runs guardians too so we're usually sitting at 25 might stacks just from Empowering Might alone.  There's no need to give up a 5th of our DPS for something we normally get anyway.  At any rate if you're putting out enough condition damage to pull your weight then I'd say you qualify as DPS.

[Thaddeuz]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 07 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

You forgot gearchecking party members.  I weed out so many bad players that way.  I estimate that like 80-90% of players are in useless/subpar gear.

Seriously, i never gear checked and i found this practice to be highly elitist. I would be piss off if someone get with my in level 30+ fractal with blue gear, for all the other PvE content its just not enough difficult so you need to check the gear. Someone who know what to do in dungeon, someone who listen when you explain how to do it or someone that can give you new tricks are people so more helpful that a fully geared glass canon that do only what he want and don't follow the rest of the group the minutes they don't do things the way he do it.

[Quantum Energy]

I agree with OP - paying attention to those small details should be mandatory unless you are a masochist and like to spend 50% of your playtime dead in dungeon with this new patch. Also, timing dodges is important as much as dodging attacks itself, not all professions have improved endurance refresh rate (and additional evade skills).

/stickythisthread

Spoiler

Also, Tom, I hope these rules apply to you too.. else, I'll switch back to my MF armor when we do dungeons together next time...

Edited by Quantum Energy, 06 February 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Hex65000]

First off Minion, this is a great set of guidelines.

The only other suggestion I'd add is communication. Some of us (me) have trouble driving their toon correctly and typing at the same time. If I'm swinging at stuff, I'm not gonna hit enter unless you want to see, "Are we sk221118675wwdddddddfffffff" where I'm suddenly dead for some odd reason...

Seriously though, Simple things such as saying who is doing what, where there are role-specific tasks helps immensely. Don't just say because I'm standing here near the door in CoF means that you have the door. Saying it adds clarity. The same with co-ordinated events where you have to down multiple monsters at roughly the same time. I just assume that nobody is using voip and general movements should be planned out before rushing ahead.

I also totally agree about how to skip things and not have a major problem. It seems I'm slow relative to everyone else when running (even with a swiftness boost) what tends to happen is the guy in front aggros the monsters, and then the second guy might get through, but then the ones in the back get wrecked due to a big ball of dudes that are not happy to see anyone. Guess who has a high chance of being in the back? :|

On the other hand, I've seen cases where a monster will break off and start heading back to its starting point. In these cases, as long as you don't attack them, they won't re-aggro on the trailing runner.

When I'm PuGing, I'm more interested in a reasonably smooth and orderly run v/s a speed run. The cost in efficiency is more than made up for in my mind by fewer repair bills and fewer cases of me being irritated at some smug git because I'm not a freaking mindreader.

Hex.
[ Was gonna mock the gearchecking comment, but I'll save it for someone who deserves it... ]

[Minion]

Hex65000, on 08 February 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

First off Minion, this is a great set of guidelines.

The only other suggestion I'd add is communication. Some of us (me) have trouble driving their toon correctly and typing at the same time. If I'm swinging at stuff, I'm not gonna hit enter unless you want to see, "Are we sk221118675wwdddddddfffffff" where I'm suddenly dead for some odd reason...

Seriously though, Simple things such as saying who is doing what, where there are role-specific tasks helps immensely. Don't just say because I'm standing here near the door in CoF means that you have the door. Saying it adds clarity. The same with co-ordinated events where you have to down multiple monsters at roughly the same time. I just assume that nobody is using voip and general movements should be planned out before rushing ahead.

I also totally agree about how to skip things and not have a major problem. It seems I'm slow relative to everyone else when running (even with a swiftness boost) what tends to happen is the guy in front aggros the monsters, and then the second guy might get through, but then the ones in the back get wrecked due to a big ball of dudes that are not happy to see anyone. Guess who has a high chance of being in the back? :|

On the other hand, I've seen cases where a monster will break off and start heading back to its starting point. In these cases, as long as you don't attack them, they won't re-aggro on the trailing runner.

When I'm PuGing, I'm more interested in a reasonably smooth and orderly run v/s a speed run. The cost in efficiency is more than made up for in my mind by fewer repair bills and fewer cases of me being irritated at some smug git because I'm not a freaking mindreader.

Hex.
[ Was gonna mock the gearchecking comment, but I'll save it for someone who deserves it... ]

Indeed, communication is key. Thankfully my internet addictions help here, being able to type 110wpm with my sexy keyboard, but most parties won't have that luxury. The communication you require is generally veering from the norm. If you have the choice to do two things at a particular event, you must quickly be able to communicate which of those options you're choosing.

For example, Ascalonian Catacombs:

1. After killing Queen Spider, you can either skip the ramp completely by having a designated player dive past the gravelings and disable the traps, then the rest can follow. Alternatively, without risking a death or two on the traps if you fail, you can do slow-way and fight the gravelings.

2. Running to the pit bosses, you must be able to communicate or atleast make sure your party are following you and not heading to the "allocated, well-known pug-spots", because no one needs to camp that safespot.


And it's the same with skipping through irritating areas, like TA; always run together. This is doubly important now you cannot res immediately if you fail.


I will add this to the guide momentarily.

P.S. Oh, and don't even waste your time on the gear-check statement. GK bitter

Edited by Minion, 08 February 2013 - 08:58 PM.

[AsgarZigel]

Don't forget that every class has support and control options. If you are a warrior and usually use all signets, it might be a good idea to switch out signet of might for banner of strength in a group scenario so everyone benefits from it. Changing a major trait or two also can make the experience that much smoother for everyone.

[Minion]

AsgarZigel, on 09 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Don't forget that every class has support and control options. If you are a warrior and usually use all signets, it might be a good idea to switch out signet of might for banner of strength in a group scenario so everyone benefits from it.

Not to derail this, but banner of discipline is the best banner, only probably only banner you need to consider using. Precision procs a lot of traits in most builds and if your crit chance is high enough, 10% crit damage is better than the power given by banner of strength.


EDIT: I have added the zeroth law and edited the point on resurrecting/rallying. Rallying is fun and super effective!

Edited by Minion, 09 February 2013 - 11:36 PM.

[oni88]

Yes, definitely communication. It should be common courtesy to let the group know at the beginning if someone hasn't done the dungeon before. It's where I find most problems arise.

Speedclears/optimization/gearchecking - too much unpleasant feelings to make it worth it in pug. Organized group that you are familiar with, yes. Expecting it from random people? Maybe not so wise.

[Elysen]

Minion, on 09 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Precision procs a lot of traits in most builds and if your crit chance is high enough, 10% crit damage is better than the power given by banner of strength.

Not to mention those Omnom Ghosts/Pies.

And on topic, we all know these are hypothetical ways to make dungeons smoother. The issue is organised groups should already know all this, and PUGs straight up refuse to listen as they think they are the best and run in with 5 signets and be a 100B drone or refuse to activate any virtues as they lose their selfish, useless passive effects (yes, these professions are usually noobs as the bad players "herd dey OP" so rolled them)

Edited by Xephenon, 10 February 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[Al Shamari]

After talking with the other staff members at Minion's request, we've decided to pin this topic. Please try to keep all discussion supportive and engaging!

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Minion, on 09 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Not to derail this, but banner of discipline is the best banner, only probably only banner you need to consider using. Precision procs a lot of traits in most builds and if your crit chance is high enough, 10% crit damage is better than the power given by banner of strength.

While this isn't strictly incorrect, the gain from both banners is actually pretty insignificant either way (even with 96% base crit chance and no extra crit damage from traits, Discipline is only about an 8% boost to overall damage.  Realistically, it's only around 4-5%).  The important thing about Banner of Discipline is:

If you see a warrior summon one, pick it up and use skill #2.

This is pretty much the most important thing about maximizing DPS in dungeon runs, but a lot of players don't know this, which is excusable since it requires knowledge of another class's mechanics, but I've also seen warriors not picking up their own banner.  Unlike elementalist conjures, banners do not despawn when you drop it.  Also, the cooldown on the banner skills are per player, not per banner.  This means that every player can pick up the banner, apply a stack of fury, and drop it for the next person to do the same.  This is pretty much the only way for a single player to give 100% fury uptime to the entire team and is probably the best thing about warrior.

Just do it.  It works.

Oh, and virtues don't do shit for the party, except keep burn going.  Resolve heals for next to nothing and if you're relying on guardians to Aegis you instead of dodging the big OHKO attack your team is either ridiculously good or ridiculously bad.

[Minion]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 15 February 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

While this isn't strictly incorrect, the gain from both banners is actually pretty insignificant either way (even with 96% base crit chance and no extra crit damage from traits, Discipline is only about an 8% boost to overall damage.  Realistically, it's only around 4-5%).  The important thing about Banner of Discipline is:

If you see a warrior summon one, pick it up and use skill #2.

I agree, skill 2 is great; it's a shame the banner doesn't spawn in the warrior's hands so he can use skilll#2 as soon as it spawns, as a result, the bad wars tend to forget. Also, the skill cooldowns on bundles are on the players, not the bundle itself. Fun fact. However, is that 8% damage boost personal or party-wide? Moot point, though, if there isn't another warrior utility that doesn't add more party damage support.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Minion, on 15 February 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

I agree, skill 2 is great; it's a shame the banner doesn't spawn in the warrior's hands so he can use skilll#2 as soon as it spawns, as a result, the bad wars tend to forget. Also, the skill cooldowns on bundles are on the players, not the bundle itself. Fun fact. However, is that 8% damage boost personal or party-wide? Moot point, though, if there isn't another warrior utility that doesn't add more party damage support.

There's FGJ, which can stack 6 stacks of might with boon duration and shout cooldown, which is about a 10% boost.  Of course, if you're already stacking 25 might, then it's pointless, but you won't get to 25 might without multiple guardians and warriors spamming FGJ to begin with.

Also, I made a mistake with that 8% number so you can disregard it.  it's actually lower.  At best it's, like, a 6% gain in damage.

[Minion]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 15 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Also, I made a mistake with that 8% number so you can disregard it.  it's actually lower.  At best it's, like, a 6% gain in damage.

That statistic is hard to determine since it depends on 5 players' crit chance/damage. It's always worth taking over anything else the warrior has. FGJ+Discipline are must haves in the team.