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The Self-Explanatory Dungeon Build

apparently not so obvious after all

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#31 Flour

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 29 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

To be honest I don't think this build is really viable anymore.  I'm looking into alternatives now.  I think I've got something but I'd like to test it a bit more first.

So I guess it's not only me then who have problems interupting my rolls with third greatsword attack since the patch?
Is this what makes the build "not good" anymore?

#32 KaptainO

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 29 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

To be honest I don't think this build is really viable anymore.  I'm looking into alternatives now.  I think I've got something but I'd like to test it a bit more first.

What made it no longer viable?

#33 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostKaptainO, on 30 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

What made it no longer viable?

The problem is that you, of course, want DPS.  This build was generally regarded as an acceptable compromise between defense and DPS since you were still getting two substantial damage boosting traits on top of the crit damage from Valor line.  Now that Elusive Power no longer gives a damage bonus (due to inability to keep endurance low without actually rolling) you are basically only getting the damage boost from Fiery Wrath and might stacks.  10% doesn't sound like that much but it actually drops your overall damage quite a bit.

I mean, you can still run the build, you just won't deal very much damage.

#34 LLovegood

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

New to this forum, seeking solace from all the angry people on the official forums. Anyway, I've been running a build similar to this for some time now. 0/5/30/30/5, AH and shout build w/ Might on crit. Full zerker gear. Stand your ground/Hold the Line/Retreat, changing hold the line as needed, possibly retreat too if necessary. I use Sword/torch with either hammer or greatsword to swap (Depends if i want constant aoe damage or a quick burst), I rarely ever use staff or scepter if I can help it. Anyway I was posting to say, this type of build does still do decent damage, I wouldn't say it's not viable. Especially considering all the Magi/Cleric guardians out there (I used to be magi, that crap got salvaged at xmas :D), the damage is very good when compared with the survivability. I'd still say this is the best setup for dishing out damage without being pure glass cannon. You could take points out of Honor and stick them in zeal but the boost wouldn't be magnificent. My usual rotation on a boss is Whirling wrath (and whatever else if Swap is in cd), Sword 3, torch 4 (twice so it launches a really hard hitting projectile), torch 5, repeat. If you're doing this as fast as possible you're dishing out loooads. I kinda wanna try out Fiery wrath in my build but I'm pretty hooked on my virtues boons for AH and haven't quite escaped the need to help my party. xD

#35 KaptainO

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:33 PM

I'll deal like 91.67% of the damage I did before - assuming I had 100% uptime on Elusive Power then and 0% now?

It probably won't affect me near as much as that, maybe I'm not pro enough but I wasn't able to time my dodges well enough to always be below 100%, have enough left to dodge any important attacks and "ninja skip" to cut the animation short every time I did dodge - especially on GS (Hammer is way easier to time the "ninja skip").

#36 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

"Ninja skip" is the dumbest possible name for it.  You don't even skip anything.  It's just canceling your roll.  Someone spread the rumor that it makes your attack chain faster which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard and obviously false.

#37 KaptainO

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter.  I didn't come up with that name, it's just quicker than typing "cancelling your dodge roll with an auto attack".

Point is it's at worst an 8.33% (recurring of course) reduction in damage and I think it's probably closer to 4% for me personally.  Do I want to lose 4% damage? Of course not but to say that it's a massive nerf and going to make the build unplayable and do "no damage" is the epitome of hyperbole.

I do think your new sword build is interesting though!

#38 Brand

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:14 AM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 08 January 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Crit chance: 41%
Crit damage: +96% (246% of base damage)

Damage numbers (Note: You can easily maintain 10+ stacks of might just by auto-attacking.  Obviously it will fluctuate slightly but I am just assuming the 10 stacks for these calculations)
So I was linked here by the dude on Strife's build. I'm confused on this part. Assuming you have the 29% uptime of Fury (This is about 6% crit constantly) you would have 47% crit. Assuming one target and you are Autoattacking, I'm wondering how you got to this conclusion. This is some math I did for another user:

AA gives 1 might stack for 5.25 seconds every 2.5 seconds = About 2 Might stacks constantly
You have 57% Crit with your fury = 3.4 stacks of might for 8.75 seconds each on AA = 3-4 stacks constantly (Nearby allies)
33% on Crit to apply might for 17.5 sec = 19% chance for a might stack of 17.5 = 3 stacks constantly
1 might stack for 17.5 seconds every 48 (Shout) = .4 might stack constantly

This equals out to about 9-10 might stacks. They had not only 10% more crit than you, but also 35% more boon duration (Might duration). I'm not going to bother doing the actual math for your build, since it's plain as day that a build with -35% boon duration and -10% crit could not possibly get MORE stacks (Or even equal) to the build the other user posted.

So I wanted to ask you, how are you getting those figures? Would you care to show some math?

#39 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:26 AM

View PostBrand, on 21 February 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

So I was linked here by the dude on Strife's build. I'm confused on this part. Assuming you have the 29% uptime of Fury (This is about 6% crit constantly) you would have 47% crit. Assuming one target and you are Autoattacking, I'm wondering how you got to this conclusion. This is some math I did for another user:

AA gives 1 might stack for 5.25 seconds every 2.5 seconds = About 2 Might stacks constantly
You have 57% Crit with your fury = 3.4 stacks of might for 8.75 seconds each on AA = 3-4 stacks constantly (Nearby allies)
33% on Crit to apply might for 17.5 sec = 19% chance for a might stack of 17.5 = 3 stacks constantly
1 might stack for 17.5 seconds every 48 (Shout) = .4 might stack constantly

This equals out to about 9-10 might stacks. They had not only 10% more crit than you, but also 35% more boon duration (Might duration). I'm not going to bother doing the actual math for your build, since it's plain as day that a build with -35% boon duration and -10% crit could not possibly get MORE stacks (Or even equal) to the build the other user posted.

So I wanted to ask you, how are you getting those figures? Would you care to show some math?

You're going to have to reference me to this other build you're discussing.  I assume this guy you're talking about is running something like 20/0/20/30 in which case the disparity (or lack thereof) is likely the result of something like not having Might of the Protector, or something else entirely.

Also, your Strength number is off.  You need to multiply by your average attack rate.  For GS that's about 2.2 per second, but don't quote me on that, it's late and I don't remember offhand.  Account for double procs and I'd say 5 stacks is more likely with my own numbers.  With yours, it'd be about 8.

Honestly, though, I should just delete this thread, or at least the OP.  The build is really outdated.

#40 Brand

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 21 February 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

You're going to have to reference me to this other build you're discussing.  I assume this guy you're talking about is running something like 20/0/20/30 in which case the disparity (or lack thereof) is likely the result of something like not having Might of the Protector, or something else entirely.

Also, your Strength number is off.  You need to multiply by your average attack rate.  For GS that's about 2.2 per second, but don't quote me on that, it's late and I don't remember offhand.  Account for double procs and I'd say 5 stacks is more likely with my own numbers.  With yours, it'd be about 8.

Honestly, though, I should just delete this thread, or at least the OP.  The build is really outdated.
The build was 0/5/30/30/5 (Similar to this one). Also, I did multiply by the average attack rate (It's 6 attacks every 5 seconds about).

I'll do the math for your build now since it's not super late anymore. Ok so lets see.. 40% boon and 47% crit...

Your last AA gives Might for (3*1.4) 4.2 seconds every 2.5 seconds = A little over 1 stack
Empowering Might gives you (6*0.47) 2.8 Might for (5*1.4) 7 seconds every 5 seconds = A little over 3 stacks
Sigil of Strength gives you (6*(0.33*0.47)) 0.9 Might for 14 seconds every 5 seconds = A little over 2 stacks of might
And assuming shout CDs you get .3 might stacks constantly from the all boons shout.

We'll add up all the "little overs" and the .3 and pretend it's one might stack. This gives you about 7 stacks constantly. Take note this is from a probability and uptime standpoint, the actual stacks you have at a given time won't be as high as that.

I didn't think it was that outdated though, just the numbers were a little out there.

Edited by Brand, 21 February 2013 - 06:02 PM.


#41 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:47 PM

I think your numbers are a little off?  This is what I'm getting.  Obviously it won't be exactly this way because of internal cooldowns but let's just ignore that for now.

EM: 1.2 attacks/second, 47% chance of crit, 7s might on crit = 3.29s might per swing = 3.95 stacks
Auto: 4.2s might per 2.5s = 1.68 stacks
Sigil of Strength: 30% chance on 47% chance of crit for 14s might at 1.2 attacks/second = 14.1% chance of proccing per swing for 14s = 1.97s per swing = 2.37 stacks
Save Yourselves: 14s might every 48s = .3 stacks average
Passive Courage: 21s might every 40s = .525 stacks average
Retreat: 21s might every 48s = .44s stacks average

That's about 9.5 stacks total, give or take, so it's not too far from the 10 stacks I observed.  I think I did say by auto-attacking so let's put aside the large number of extra hits you'll be getting from WW and Symbol (which pretty much doubles your average attack rate) and will probably get you an extra 3-4 stacks.  But yeah, my estimate was a bit high I guess.  I didn't actually run the numbers, I just went and hit things and used the number that I saw the most.

#42 Brand

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

Ah yeah, my numbers were off. It was brought to my attention that I was missing some internal cooldowns and apparently some other might stacks(Hadn't even noticed, was sleepy D:). Thanks for the reply!




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