35 replies to this topic

[Stigma]

Does being in a party increase the chance of loot? I see a lot of people being in parties at Cursed Shore in order to farm DEs. Is this a placebo effect or does it really increase MF in some way?

What do you guys think?

[God Pain]

i think it is pretty much confirmed that when you are in a party, the mobs your team tags add up to your dmg somwhow. And i speak for myself, i get alot more loot when i'm in a party that attacks the same group of mobs. (not some partys i sometimes get into, where people are all over the map... idiots)

[Sheepski]

Yeah as above:

To get a chance on the loot table you have to tag the mob, obviously, and do a certain % damage to that mob. When in a party that % is divided between any/all of your party members who also tagged that mob.

As far as I'm aware it won't increase the actual amounts of loot dropped, as every individual has their own loot table.

[AKGeo]

Is there a cited source that says that party damage is shared among all party members, as stated above? I find that hard to believe.

[Cobalt60]

There is probably 500000 players who can give you anecdotal evidence that it is true.

[Prezz]

Annnnnd another 500,000 who say that this is the most stupid misconseption ever heard - Hence why i dont believe anything until Dev's confirm it

[XPhiler]

My impression is also that being in a party nets you more loot but its nothing more then an impression, could just be a conincidence or there could be something to it who knows. Its certainly more fun either way

[Sheepski]

Prezz, on 11 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Annnnnd another 500,000 who say that this is the most stupid misconseption ever heard - Hence why i dont believe anything until Dev's confirm it

How so?

Imagine you're in a dungeon, as a support Guardian/Ele w/e. Your main role is to provide buffs/cond removal/healing etc and therefore do minimal damage. You still get loot. You won't have done enough damage on a mob in % to trigger your tag.

Whether or not the system is confirmed by a Dev, it's fact that you get more tags relative to what you hit and what your party also attacks. It's far beyond anecdotal. The % damage to equal a tag or the amount of hits needed in a party to generate a tag etc, all those variables have only anecdotal evidence but there's no doubt that your party member's damage/tags count towards yours as long as you hit the mobs.
That is as long as your party member(s) are hitting the same mobs as you.

[Prezz]

Sheepski, on 11 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

How so?

Imagine you're in a dungeon, as a support Guardian/Ele w/e. Your main role is to provide buffs/cond removal/healing etc and therefore do minimal damage. You still get loot. You won't have done enough damage on a mob in % to trigger your tag.

Whether or not the system is confirmed by a Dev, it's fact that you get more tags relative to what you hit and what your party also attacks. It's far beyond anecdotal. The % damage to equal a tag or the amount of hits needed in a party to generate a tag etc, all those variables have only anecdotal evidence but there's no doubt that your party member's damage/tags count towards yours as long as you hit the mobs.
That is as long as your party member(s) are hitting the same mobs as you.

As with everything .... No proof = no reliability.

Many times i have 'tagged' a mob in a dugeon, for example, once with skill 1 lets say - rest of my party finish the guy off before i get anymore hits in... No drop and no experience so i really am intriued as to how you actually think this is viable, go on, do it yourself. Tag a mob with your weakest skill (if your own damage doesnt really matter - as is being stated by this thread) then let the rest of your party finish them off.

I can 100% guaruntee that unless you hit for a considerable ammount it doesnt matter if a party member or a non party member finishes off that mob you will not get the drop.

Will do testing tonight and report my finding. I'll it 2 of the same mobs for the same skill with the same stacks and then let my party finish them off - if i get a drop i will appologise but as us with a morsal of intelligence know, this wont happen.

How many times have you tagged a mob once only to see a hail of meteors 1shot them leaving you with no drop - party member or not.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

Ok, so I get the reasoning behind why being in a party should increase your chance of loot, but this reasoning assumes one thing that I haven't seen confirmed: Loot chances increase the more damage you do to a foe. It was my understanding that loot chances were there due to participation, but not actually due to how many percent of the damage you dealt. Loot chances are fixed. If you get XP, you have a chance of getting loot, and that chance doesn't change whether you've done 10% of the damage dealt or 50%.

Anecdotal evidence is not in itself evidence. That's just saying "my point of view is..." That's why OP mentioned the placebo effect, the effect of giving you the illusion of an actual effect. As long as the placebo effect is in question, you cannot use the anecdotes as statististical evidence, as this is a common psychological factor in everyone that clouds up everything in an analysis. What is needed is an in depth analysis of the loot system.

However, I might just be speaking out of my a**. If there're anyone who has any actual evidence that the loot chances work like mentioned, please tell me. It'd completely change the way I farm

[dannywolt]

Prezz, on 11 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Annnnnd another 500,000 who say that this is the most stupid misconseption ever heard - Hence why i dont believe anything until Dev's confirm it

Ha ha, these would be the 500k players who absolutely refuse to party with others. It's amazing how stubborn some players are.

Sword Hammer Axe, on 11 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Ok, so I get the reasoning behind why being in a party should increase your chance of loot, but this reasoning assumes one thing that I haven't seen confirmed: Loot chances increase the more damage you do to a foe. It was my understanding that loot chances were there due to participation, but not actually due to how many percent of the damage you dealt. Loot chances are fixed. If you get XP, you have a chance of getting loot, and that chance doesn't change whether you've done 10% of the damage dealt or 50%.

Anecdotal evidence is not in itself evidence. That's just saying "my point of view is..." That's why OP mentioned the placebo effect, the effect of giving you the illusion of an actual effect. As long as the placebo effect is in question, you cannot use the anecdotes as statististical evidence, as this is a common psychological factor in everyone that clouds up everything in an analysis. What is needed is an in depth analysis of the loot system.

However, I might just be speaking out of my a**. If there're anyone who has any actual evidence that the loot chances work like mentioned, please tell me. It'd completely change the way I farm

You are correct that the amount of damage done does not determine loot chance. It's simply a threshold you have to break. This can be seen best with champion mobs. If you are solo in a mid-sized zerg that is attacking a champion, you will almost never get credit for the kill (exp and loot). However, if you are in a full party with decent DPS, your party will likely break the damage threshold and earn credit.

The benefit of being in a party is not a higher chance of loot dropping, but instead receiving credit for a greater number of kills. It should be noted that this only applies when playing alongside other players. If you are the only player killing in the area, you will get full credit anyway.

I farm CS a lot (500+ hours) so if I have the time I will compile numbers. It should be as simple as tracking quantity of drops in/out of a party.

Edited by dannywolt, 11 January 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[TGIFrisbie]

I word it differently to help those confused understand the mechanic a little better.

Damage done to a mob is considered from your party as a whole.  When you are "solo" you are a party....of ONE.

You do need to tag a mob yourself to recieve a chance for loot, but the damage done to the mob from all sources of your party is your party's damage.

[Bottoms_Up]

dannywolt, on 11 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

It should be as simple as tracking quantity of drops in/out of a party.

Ideally, to remove as many variables as possible, you should kill just the one mob type (assuming that a single mob type uses just one, static loot table) in both runs and kill mobs individually - one at a time - rather than as multi-pulls. If you don't kill just one type, both runs, grouped and ungrouped, should include the same number of each mob type.

And perhaps the most important thing, when you do the run out of the party, you need to ensure that the original party members are still with you and attacking the mob at the same time and using the attacks they did while grouped with you (you could perhaps even do two runs here, one where the same party members are grouped but you aren't and one where everyone in the original party is ungrouped).

So perhaps not that simple to generate meaningful data.

EDIT: perhaps the best way to do this would be to use a group comprising all the same class and all geared and traited the same using just auto-attack. Any lack of synchronisation between each person's attacks (i.e. such that one person does more damage because they struck first or because someone was CCed by the mob) should hopefully be evened out by a large enough sample size.

Edited by Bottoms_Up, 11 January 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[dannywolt]

Bottoms_Up, on 11 January 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Ideally, to remove as many variables as possible, you should kill just the one mob type (assuming that a single mob type uses just one, static loot table) in both runs and kill mobs individually - one at a time - rather than as multi-pulls. If you don't kill just one type, both runs, grouped and ungrouped, should include the same number of each mob type.

And perhaps the most important thing, when you do the run out of the party, you need to ensure that the original party members are still with you and attacking the mob at the same time and using the attacks they did while grouped with you (you could perhaps even do two runs here, one where the same party members are grouped but you aren't and one where everyone in the original party is ungrouped).

So perhaps not that simple to generate meaningful data.

EDIT: perhaps the best way to do this would be to use a group comprising all the same class and all geared and traited the same using just auto-attack. Any lack of synchronisation between each person's attacks (i.e. such that one person does more damage because they struck first or because someone was CCed by the mob) should hopefully be evened out by a large enough sample size.

And the effect of all those variables is irrelevant to whether being in a party nets you more loot. I personally have no interest in determining the exact mechanics of the drop system; I just want to establish that a party should be utilized to maximize loot when farming DEs.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

dannywolt, on 11 January 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Ha ha, these would be the 500k players who absolutely refuse to party with others. It's amazing how stubborn some players are.



You are correct that the amount of damage done does not determine loot chance. It's simply a threshold you have to break. This can be seen best with champion mobs. If you are solo in a mid-sized zerg that is attacking a champion, you will almost never get credit for the kill (exp and loot). However, if you are in a full party with decent DPS, your party will likely break the damage threshold and earn credit.

The benefit of being in a party is not a higher chance of loot dropping, but instead receiving credit for a greater number of kills. It should be noted that this only applies when playing alongside other players. If you are the only player killing in the area, you will get full credit anyway.

I farm CS a lot (500+ hours) so if I have the time I will compile numbers. It should be as simple as tracking quantity of drops in/out of a party.

I'm not sure I really get that. You still have to tag the enemies, so how exactly do you get credit for a higher amount of kills? I mean, outside of parties you still get credited for all the enemies you've hit, regardless of whether the ones that finished them off were in your party.

[dannywolt]

Sword Hammer Axe, on 12 January 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm not sure I really get that. You still have to tag the enemies, so how exactly do you get credit for a higher amount of kills? I mean, outside of parties you still get credited for all the enemies you've hit, regardless of whether the ones that finished them off were in your party.

Here is my mob-tagging theory based on the patterns I've seen while farming:

There is a specific damage threshold that must be met to tag a mob. It's probably something between 5-15% of the mob's maximum hp. If a player inflicts at least that much damage, then that player is rewarded for the kill with exp and a roll on the mob's loot table. (Note that this is just a chance to receive a loot drop and not a guaranteed drop).

In a party the calculation is slightly different. In my experience there are two separate requirements that must be met. First, total damage by all party members must exceed the 5-15% threshold. Second, each individual player must meet a smaller damage threshold (maybe 1-2%). This second requirement can be seen with dungeon bosses when a party member only attacks a couple times and doesn't receive a drop.

In practice, the benefit of being in a party is best seen in certain conditions: A DE with a large number of mobs and a ton of players. A good example is the Penitent Camp defense event in Cursed Shore during prime-time. When 10-12 risen spawn and the zerg attacks them, it can be difficult for a solo player to damage each of them for 5-15% maximum hp. Unless the player specializes in high dps aoe, he or she will likely only tag a handful of the mobs. In contrast, a player in a party can focus on hitting as many of the mobs as possible since his or her fellow party members will also be contributing towards the required damage.

Specific example: As a greatsword warrior, I can tag each mob with 1-2 hits when my party is attacking the same mobs. Solo it takes significantly more hits per mob.

[Gilles VI]

Cobalt60, on 11 January 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

There is probably 500000 players who can give you anecdotal evidence that it is true.

There are also 500000 players who believe warrior/guardians are the only viable professions, that doesn't make it's true..

[Sword Hammer Axe]

dannywolt, on 12 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Here is my mob-tagging theory based on the patterns I've seen while farming:

There is a specific damage threshold that must be met to tag a mob. It's probably something between 5-15% of the mob's maximum hp. If a player inflicts at least that much damage, then that player is rewarded for the kill with exp and a roll on the mob's loot table. (Note that this is just a chance to receive a loot drop and not a guaranteed drop).

In a party the calculation is slightly different. In my experience there are two separate requirements that must be met. First, total damage by all party members must exceed the 5-15% threshold. Second, each individual player must meet a smaller damage threshold (maybe 1-2%). This second requirement can be seen with dungeon bosses when a party member only attacks a couple times and doesn't receive a drop.

In practice, the benefit of being in a party is best seen in certain conditions: A DE with a large number of mobs and a ton of players. A good example is the Penitent Camp defense event in Cursed Shore during prime-time. When 10-12 risen spawn and the zerg attacks them, it can be difficult for a solo player to damage each of them for 5-15% maximum hp. Unless the player specializes in high dps aoe, he or she will likely only tag a handful of the mobs. In contrast, a player in a party can focus on hitting as many of the mobs as possible since his or her fellow party members will also be contributing towards the required damage.

Specific example: As a greatsword warrior, I can tag each mob with 1-2 hits when my party is attacking the same mobs. Solo it takes significantly more hits per mob.

Well, I guess it'll have to stay on a theoretical level, because my own experience differs greatly. Maybe there's a damage threshold, but it can't be as big as 15% and I even doubt as big as 5%, seeing as I have never seen it require more than 2 hits for it to count my attack (even against high HP champions and against that ridiculously high HP veteran spider in Timberline Falls at the skillpoint, which btw REALLY should be a champion with the amount of damage it deals and amount of time it takes to kill it). I've often walked in on a fight right before the final strikes are made, and while I've experienced one attack to not be able to give me the XP, I've never had that happen with 2 strikes or more, regardless of how little of the damage I actually did. I think the counters are based more on whether you're registered in the fight than on your damage output, though of course I can't really prove this, and it doesn't really explain why the first hit is sometimes counter for naught.

[Khrushchev]

If the party-wide tagging system is indeed true, then why if I die towards the end of a boss fight, say... The Legendary Grawl Shaman in fractals, do I not get credit for killing him? Many times one of our party members dies there and can't safely be ressed, and they don't get credit for the individual killing of that boss. No xp. No drops.

[this a pointed]

If you are are alone you have to do, lets say 15% dmg in order to get loot.
When you are in a party you still have to damage the mobs but you will get loot as long as the damage > 0.

Edited by this a pointed, 12 January 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[T R O U B L E]

I have no solid proof to offer, but as someone who has spent hundreds of hours farming cursed shore (plus other events), i can definitely agree with most of what is being said. I do feel that to get a chance at loot you need ~20% damage from your party, with ~5% individual damage contribution. Also, the threshold to get experience is much lower, and feels like it is based on getting a couple (2+) hits instead of a raw damage qualifier. These are things that should just be accepted facts.

I have also noticed a few things that would definitely count as superstition with farming and MF, and have discussed them at length with farming partners and guildies. I am not saying that these are facts, but instead FEEL accurate. /discuss your experiences with these topics:

1- MF gained from food/banners/guild buffs/WvW is not the same as what is on your gear. "External" MF has a much more dramatic effect than what you are wearing. I get similiar results from the gold find bonus on scavenger, it FEELS like it increases the frequency of gold drops, instead of the amount.

2- The "quality" of your tags can vary based off of an unknown damage threshold, which FEELS like ~40% total mob health or more. I have seen and talked to many people who do only 1k dmg to mobs before they die (example-well necro) who get tons of tags, but they are overwhelmingly greys and blues, and almost never greens or better. At the same time, 100b warriors who are doing 40% mob health or more plus party contribution, are getting considerably more greens and better (as a percentage of total drops). This is extremely hard to prove, and very subject to rng. But once again, it FEELS true.

Do not expect Anet to come out with a solid explanation of how MF works, once they do, no one will want to party with thieves, guardians, or any non-mass AoE class/spec  again. For those of you who still don't believe that a party can increase your chance to tag mobs, I encourage you to party with a couple good elementalists, stick with them, and use all the Aoe you can to do 2k dmg to each target they are hitting. Then try going solo again and /cry into your pancakes.

Edited by T R O U B L E, 12 January 2013 - 08:16 PM.

[dannywolt]

Sword Hammer Axe, on 12 January 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Well, I guess it'll have to stay on a theoretical level, because my own experience differs greatly. Maybe there's a damage threshold, but it can't be as big as 15% and I even doubt as big as 5%, seeing as I have never seen it require more than 2 hits for it to count my attack (even against high HP champions and against that ridiculously high HP veteran spider in Timberline Falls at the skillpoint, which btw REALLY should be a champion with the amount of damage it deals and amount of time it takes to kill it). I've often walked in on a fight right before the final strikes are made, and while I've experienced one attack to not be able to give me the XP, I've never had that happen with 2 strikes or more, regardless of how little of the damage I actually did. I think the counters are based more on whether you're registered in the fight than on your damage output, though of course I can't really prove this, and it doesn't really explain why the first hit is sometimes counter for naught.

Interesting. We certainly need more testing. This is pure speculation, but it's possible that tagging requirements are reduced if a player joins a fight that is almost over. The tagging system is obviously complicated.

Khrushchev, on 12 January 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

If the party-wide tagging system is indeed true, then why if I die towards the end of a boss fight, say... The Legendary Grawl Shaman in fractals, do I not get credit for killing him? Many times one of our party members dies there and can't safely be ressed, and they don't get credit for the individual killing of that boss. No xp. No drops.

Yeah this is probably a bug. Death seems to reset contribution towards a boss kill, so even if you are in a party you no longer have the boss tagged.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

dannywolt, on 12 January 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Interesting. We certainly need more testing. This is pure speculation, but it's possible that tagging requirements are reduced if a player joins a fight that is almost over. The tagging system is obviously complicated.

True that. They do use a system that hasn't really seen the light of day before GW2, so any old ways of the MMO procedures can't really be put to use here. It's fun to test though

[Cobalt60]

Gilles VI, on 12 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

There are also 500000 players who believe warrior/guardians are the only viable professions, that doesn't make it's true..

Cool story bro. Have another go.

[Damian Greenthumb]

Is XP related to tagging and lootability as well?  Several times I have been in DEs in Orr and had party members kill mobs without me tagging but I recieve XP.  This tends to happen when Im in agro range but def not engaging that particular mob. I cant remember seeing loot sparkles on mobs that party members brought down, but def XP.

[Gilles VI]

Cobalt60, on 13 January 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

Cool story bro. Have another go.

Such a contructive response.

[Prezz]

TGIFrisbie, on 11 January 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I word it differently to help those confused understand the mechanic a little better.

Damage done to a mob is considered from your party as a whole.  When you are "solo" you are a party....of ONE.

You do need to tag a mob yourself to recieve a chance for loot, but the damage done to the mob from all sources of your party is your party's damage.

As i've said before, how many times have you tagged a mob - party finishes them off - you get no loot nor XP?

Also, where is your proof? or as everyone seems to do with this game are you confusing speculation and fact?

[dannywolt]

Prezz, on 14 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

As i've said before, how many times have you tagged a mob - party finishes them off - you get no loot nor XP?

Also, where is your proof? or as everyone seems to do with this game are you confusing speculation and fact?

Review my theory on tagging; it explains your observation of failure to receive credit for a kill. The absence of credit is expected if your damage was insignificant.

Nothing in this thread goes beyond theory. Proof is yet to be established but that has no bearing on whether or not a theory is correct. In the near future, I plan to begin testing of my theory and the nuances discussed in this thread. Perhaps I can provide you the proof you are looking for.

[Prezz]

dannywolt, on 15 January 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Review my theory on tagging; it explains your observation of failure to receive credit for a kill. The absence of credit is expected if your damage was insignificant.

Nothing in this thread goes beyond theory. Proof is yet to be established but that has no bearing on whether or not a theory is correct. In the near future, I plan to begin testing of my theory and the nuances discussed in this thread. Perhaps I can provide you the proof you are looking for.

I look forward to seeing the results

[Olives]

Prezz, on 14 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Also, where is your proof? or as everyone seems to do with this game are you confusing speculation and fact?

Speculation is an essential part in finding the facts. The tagging theories in this thread (loot after ~10% from party and ~2% from the individual player) match my own observations quite well so far. Especially in Orr events with large numbers of players, I consistently get poor loot when soloing, with satisfying loot as soon as I join a party.

So keep on speculating, that's the stuff new hypotheses are fed with.