14 replies to this topic

[Phenn]

So I've had my thief at 80 for a while now, and while working on world completion, I've been messing around with builds. Most of them are just fun, especially in low-level areas, but few of them can really keep pace with the lvl 80 areas.

I realized today that I've never designed a build around the short bow, and figured I'd give it a shot. Hence the thread title. Keep in mind that this particular build was purely for PvE. I'd change utilities around for Dungeons or WvW.

This is the build I've been using. It revolves around dodges and might stacking.

Reasoning? Well, dodges should be obvious--the short bow is king of evasion, and kiting is necessary with the (relatively) low damage on the auto attack. Thing with this build is you'll never have insta-kills, but having played S/D while leveling, I got used to it.

The second aspect is might-stacking to compensate for the lower general damage. To achieve this, I've gone with a signet loadout for a couple of reasons. First, the signets are good. Assassin's signet adds damage plus might (when traited), Agility signet is a cleanse and refills endurance and adds might, and the Shadows signet is a blind (especially helpful when KDed or Stunned) and adds might.

When coupled with sigils of battle and/or sigils of energy, you can keep a decent (around 10) stack of might on you at all times and have your endurance up for at least one dodge ready at all times.

Additionally, each of the signets adds 2 initiative, keeping you topped up and taking full advantage of the SB #3 dodge, and the Crit Strikes Grandmaster minor trait.

There's not a lot else to say--gameplay with the Short Bow is pretty straight-forward. But I've enjoyed running headlong into groups of level 78-80 mobs and wrecking havoc. Champs weren't a problem either except that I kept kiting them out of their wipe areas. I keep Hide in Shadows on my bar for the easy-out if necessary. SofM was okay in lower-leveled areas, but gets weak in higher ones.

The biggest weakness right now is a lack of stunbreak. You could easily swap one of the signets out for RforI, but I've been content with the insta-blind on the Shadows signet.

Anyway--I'm having fun with it. I had never seen a build designed specifically for the Short Bow, so it's my attempt. You're welcome to offer suggestions or mods.

EDIT: Forgot to add: You're extremely hard to catch with this setup. Couple the crazy amount of initiative-return with Infiltrator's Arrow? Too much fun. Though unless you're in combat mode, the blind won't proc, so you have to lead with an autoattack if you want to initiate with a AoE blind.

Edited by Phenn, 11 January 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Rinoa Heartseeker]

You could also go for 30 points in Acrobatics to get Quick Pockets(3 initiative on weapon swap while in combat).

Regarding the sigils. Battle + Energy sounds really good, double Energy is also pretty good giving you all the endurance you should ever need.

Edited by Rinoa Heartseeker, 11 January 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Pexx]

Shortbow PvE builds are great. Made a few that were amazing. A Shortbow signet build is something I haven't done and it looks like you've kept a few things ready at all times (I may try a variation of it myself sometime)

In fact, I tried a few shortbow PvP builds today, and had varying ranges of success (bottom line: great for point capping and controlling opponents off points... bad for going for kills unless in a group).

[Korra]

Been there, done that.

Build is inferior.

[Elr3d]

Korra, on 11 January 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Been there, done that.

Build is inferior.

That's a very solid argument, and I stand absolutely convinced.

Joke aside, in PvE the Shortbow is great, and that might stacking signet build could work pretty well I think. However, I'd add extra fun by traiting for weakness on poison and support Steal, so more like this:

http://gw2skills.net...KUPFkds6HwZ/hrC

With a gear setup that'd favor a relatively high critical chance (for Sundering strikes) and probably a power/condition damage hybrid (maybe more condition oriented). It may be more potent, as the Shortbow is not as great for its direct damage potential as it is for the AoE bleeds and poison it gives. Also might affect condition damage, so it'd work just as much. Infiltrator's Signet takes care of initiative management.

Other than that, you could also scrap the signet and build around venoms (not venomsharing as the range is too small to be really worth the trait investment), and enjoy dishing out immobilizes and chill with Devourer and Ice drake venoms for max WvWvW annoyance. Anyway, I feel like there's potential in a Shortbow Thief, and if I had the motive and gold to make another armor/weapon setup, I'd probably try to build around it.

Edited by Elr3d, 11 January 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Korra]

How is a 5 seconds 15 stacks of might good? Even with Signet of the battle, using 2 SB is overusing something that is not viable.

I've been running a Might stakc build with boon duration + perma vigor + orrian truffle food (could do 6 dodges in a row) and every dodge gave me 2 stacks of might.

But even that build gets easy overwhelmed by builds like Shadow rejuvenation/crit or even the most gimmicky Backstab build.

[Phenn]

Rinoa Heartseeker, on 11 January 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

You could also go for 30 points in Acrobatics to get Quick Pockets(3 initiative on weapon swap while in combat).

Regarding the sigils. Battle + Energy sounds really good, double Energy is also pretty good giving you all the endurance you should ever need.

I had wondered about the Quick Pockets. It'd remove the need for the Trickery line Master minor trait, and with the right sigils it could be fun. I haven't messed around long enough with it to buy the needed equipment.

Elr3d, on 11 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Joke aside, in PvE the Shortbow is great, and that might stacking signet build could work pretty well I think. However, I'd add extra fun by traiting for weakness on poison and support Steal, so more like this:

http://gw2skills.net...KUPFkds6HwZ/hrC

With a gear setup that'd favor a relatively high critical chance (for Sundering strikes) and probably a power/condition damage hybrid (maybe more condition oriented). It may be more potent, as the Shortbow is not as great for its direct damage potential as it is for the AoE bleeds and poison it gives. Also might affect condition damage, so it'd work just as much. Infiltrator's Signet takes care of initiative management.

Other than that, you could also scrap the signet and build around venoms (not venomsharing as the range is too small to be really worth the trait investment), and enjoy dishing out immobilizes and chill with Devourer and Ice drake venoms for max WvWvW annoyance. Anyway, I feel like there's potential in a Shortbow Thief, and if I had the motive and gold to make another armor/weapon setup, I'd probably try to build around it.

A venom build would definitely be viable, and I half considered it at first. Opted to go with the might-based one for money's sake. I'd already geared out for Power/Precision, hence my avoidance of condition damage. But you could easily accomplish the same thing by traiting for Venom CD's and might on Venom use. My one issue with using only short bow is that I hardly ever use steal by merit of being ranged. Though I suppose you could couple steal with some rapid-fire #3's to get in and out fast... I'll have to look into it.

Korra, on 11 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

How is a 5 seconds 15 stacks of might good? Even with Signet of the battle, using 2 SB is overusing something that is not viable.

I've been running a Might stakc build with boon duration + perma vigor + orrian truffle food (could do 6 dodges in a row) and every dodge gave me 2 stacks of might.

But even that build gets easy overwhelmed by builds like Shadow rejuvenation/crit or even the most gimmicky Backstab build.

The issue is I wasn't trying to make a short bow build that was better than or equal to any of the other standard thief builds. I wanted to use a short bow as a primary, and then I built around it. Sure there are much better ways of stacking might, vigor, etc., but I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to make the short bow fun to use and play to its strengths and compensate for its weakness. So far, I feel I accomplished that and am enjoying the results.

[Korra]

You wanna play shortbow at it's strenght? Don't use a signet build. SB is a light ini using set in terms of damage.  SB is not bursty so signet build is completly useless.

Is like taking Dagger damage trait and using sword.

[Loperdos]

Phenn, on 11 January 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

~snip

My one issue with using only short bow is that I hardly ever use steal by merit of being ranged. Though I suppose you could couple steal with some rapid-fire #3's to get in and out fast... I'll have to look into it.

~snip

Was looking at your build, and it looks intriguing.  You definitely aren't going to be blasting the DPS like a CnD BS crit build would nor are you gonna be able to drop conditions like a DB build would, BUT building around the shortbow sounds like fun.

I would say that if you are trying to stack might in order to give yourself a bit more damage, you may want to look at traiting Thrill of the Crime (T-V) rather than Flanking Strikes (T-IV), pairing that with #3 evade out after you steal (or just a double dodge to stack more might) and you could probably crank some short term damage up, which would have a nice bursty feel to it, even while using the shortbow.

Another thing you may want to look into (again, just a suggestion) is switching out Hide in Shadows for Withdraw, which would solve any issues you have with cripples or immobilizes (which for a dodgey SB build, could mean death pretty quick).  In having Withdraw (with its shorter CD than Hide in Shadows) you may even want to consider switching out Quick Recovery (Acr-IX) for Vigorous Recovery (Acr-III) for a place where you can get some vigor, thus making it easier for you to stack the mights off your dodge.  That one depends mostly on whether or not you have issues with init maintenance or not (seeing as I haven't played the build, I don't really know how your Init maintenance is).  The other reasoning behind using Withdraw rather than Hide in Shadows besides the above mentioned reasons is that you don't have any traits or anything buffing your stealth, so an additional dodge may work better for you, BUT you might decide that the #1 Stealth Shot's immobilize is worth having it instead of Withdraw. Just a thought.

Korra, on 11 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

You wanna play shortbow at it's strenght? Don't use a signet build. SB is a light ini using set in terms of damage.  SB is not bursty so signet build is completly useless.

Is like taking Dagger damage trait and using sword.

Real helpful.  We all appreciate your extremely constructive analysis of the build.  "Don't use this build, or this one, or this one" statements are always helpful.  
Also, a SB can be bursty~ish if done correctly.  Combine the might stacks with an undetonated Clusterbomb and you can drop some significant damage.  Base damage for Cluster is 353, compared to a correctly landed BS at 585, so no, its not AS bursty as a BS build, but there isn't another build out there that matches that.  Comparably, Heartseeker at 50% enemy HP does around the same damage as the undetonated explosion at 365.  So CAN the SB be run as a bursty AoE build? I would say to some extent.  Will it have the bursty capability of a BS D/D build?  Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the bursty SB build using signets is "completely useless".  I believe the OP stated that he wasn't looking to make a SB build that was better or equal to the other standard (DB, BS) thief builds, but one built around the SB.

I think it works...on paper at least, I don't claim to know from actual game experience on this particular build.

Edited by Loperdos, 12 January 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[Phenn]

Loperdos, on 12 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

~snip~

Awesome input as always! I switched things around per your suggestions (realizing that building for the short bow is very much like building for P/P), and it's still doing very well. Granted, I have a tendency to over-extend myself (which is where HiS was nice), but that's a L2P issue. I considered taking T-XI in conjunction with Withdraw, but I'm not sure I want to lose CS-XI and Fluid Strikes. At the moment I'm not having Initiative-management issues, so I'll hold off.

In the level 75-80 areas, re-spawns have become an issue if only because the SB doesn't kill as fast as other things, but I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the build deals with adds. PvE mobs seemed to be slow on the turn-around when it comes to Inf Shot, so it is really rather tenable to dance around indefinitely picking off mob after mob. Not exactly a bunker build, but definitely fun to play when you're bored with the traditional setups. In a weird way, it feels very similar to my staff-conditions Mesmer especially when taking on Champs 1v1.

[Calebrus]

The shortbow may not "kill as fast as other things" in a 1v1 situation, but it is literally one of the best AoE weapons in the entire game (for any profession).  That's why it deals with adds so well, as you've found.
In a 1v1 situation, if you're interested in killing things quicker you should be using a melee set instead.

[Korra]

Loperdos, on 12 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Some bullshit

Pure theory crafting with no ingame prove.

>SB can be bursty

no. it can deal a lot of constant damage but SB is not a bursty weapon even spamming CB at melee it takes 1 - 1/2 sec to land.


Signets are for bursty builds or high initative consuming, SB is neither one of those therefore playing with only SB and signet build is like playing traps with a backstap build.

Don't get me wrong, i love SB. I Almost have the dreamer but building arround it is not viable and if it is it's not with signets. Period.

[Loperdos]

Korra, on 13 January 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

~snip

We agree to disagree because our definitions are different on two points.  The definition of "bursty" and the definition of "viable".  Viable is a largely "squishy" definition in this context because it means practicable or workable.  The OP stated that he's having success with the build with what he's doing, thus fulfilling the definition of "viable" in my mind; you disagree and that's perfectly acceptable.  "Bursty" is a term generally used within games and coined by gamers, so the definition varies from person to person.  But I digress...

Phenn, on 12 January 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Awesome input as always! I switched things around per your suggestions (realizing that building for the short bow is very much like building for P/P), and it's still doing very well. Granted, I have a tendency to over-extend myself (which is where HiS was nice), but that's a L2P issue. I considered taking T-XI in conjunction with Withdraw, but I'm not sure I want to lose CS-XI and Fluid Strikes. At the moment I'm not having Initiative-management issues, so I'll hold off.

In the level 75-80 areas, re-spawns have become an issue if only because the SB doesn't kill as fast as other things, but I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the build deals with adds. PvE mobs seemed to be slow on the turn-around when it comes to Inf Shot, so it is really rather tenable to dance around indefinitely picking off mob after mob. Not exactly a bunker build, but definitely fun to play when you're bored with the traditional setups. In a weird way, it feels very similar to my staff-conditions Mesmer especially when taking on Champs 1v1.

Something else I realized after I made the comments I made, especially when running in Orr.  While I love Withdraw and all the ways it is usable and helps in many situations (outside of the slightly weaker heal than Hide in Shadows) it is also really good at accidentally drawing aggro, especially in a packed area like Orr.  Mostly a L2P issue, of course, but something to keep in mind.  When I run Orr on my thief using Withdraw, I definitely have to be more aware of my surroundings than if I run with HiS...but like I said, mostly just a L2P issue on my part and how the skill is built.

I also wouldn't consider dropping Executioner (CS-IX) or Fluid Strikes for 4 extra init on a heal (T-XI) though that particular trait is quite effective with Withdraw, just like you mention.  The tradeoff just doesn't seem worth it, even with Lead Attacks which can give you a max of +15% damage when at full init.  That being said, T-XI is actually the Grandmaster Trickery that I run and it works wonders when combined with Withdraw.  Executioner (CS-IX) and Fluid Strikes are very good on the build you are running...good on any build with any reason to trait deep into the CS line and like Calebrus mentioned, you are probably going to have some issues with 1v1 fights in the damage area, and both those traits will help out loads and loads.  The other reasoning behind not switching to a deep traited Trickery build is that while a lot of the traits there have some nice utility, I think they don't really apply to your build all that well, given that you are ranged and don't use steal all that often (here I am, talking the other side of the point that I presented earlier about the possibility of working steal into your combat ).  Plus, buffing Steal and taking away from your damage is probably not the best choice in this particular build, but nothing wrong with trying it out!

Once again, if you are having fun with the build, go for it!

Edited by Loperdos, 13 January 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Korra]

Loperdos, on 13 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

.  The OP stated that he's having success with the build with what he's doing, thus fulfilling the definition of "viable" in my mind; you disagree and that's perfectly acceptable.  "

Not having success in pve is impossible in this game. (Outside fotm)

[Rachmani]

The Build looks more like sort of a P/P or S/P Build, to be honest.

Playing SB without its greatest strength (in PvE terms), Lotus Poison doesn't feel right.
Of course it can work, or "feel" viable, but in that case we should maybe define "viable" first.

Personally, and without reading most of the discussion to be honest, I'm with Korras last statement. It's pretty damn hard to not have success in GW2 PvE outside of fotm and maybe Arah Explo. In that sense, most builds could be considered viable.
Also there are different builds for different needs. so viable for dungeons might not necessarily mean a build is also viable for farming or world events. Traits build for P/P are for example pretty viable in high lvl fractals, but certainly not for farming.

With that being said, I don't see the advantage of OPs build when compared to something pretty standard - like a flexible multi weapon-set fractal build like this http://gw2skills.net...BAAAgmCAAoTBAAA for example.
Also, I don't think taking 2 SBs instead of another weapon-set makes sense. If anything I'd say the lack of a single target weapon and/or a close combat weapon actually weakens you.