1132 replies to this topic

[Kreen]

Laylyn, on 18 January 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Despite what people have said recently in this thread, SoS did actually have to recruit to maintain line up due to attrition.  They are the first T1 green server to truly need to do so.  Less than six months into the game, it is just a sad sign of the times.  

A good post, very well written. However, while I understand the point you are making above and agree to some extent, I do have a slightly different view. Let me qualify your point from my point of view if I may. You can disagree or agree as you see fit.

SoS only had to recruit if it wanted to continue as the overly dominant force in T1 and win the vast majority of the match ups by very significant margins and basically have the game won by Monday. If they wanted a closer game they could have chosen not to push hard on recruitment or throttle back on the long play sessions. A tricky balance I know and easy in concept but difficult in practice given the competitive nature of the game. JQ has been trying to catch up to proivde closer competition but of course the goalposts would move and hence Kurthos reference to an arms race.

Of course, your general point regarding recruitment to combat server attrition is well made for all servers.

[PariahX]

Laylyn, on 18 January 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

There were things put in place to stop things like this from happening player side a little while ago.   Mechanics undermined our efforts.   To be blunt, we underestimated just how anal the math was going to be.

To a large degree, its just the zombie shuffling pace of the server rating system.  If things had worked out the way we first hoped with balancing, SoR and TC would have already had their shot at T1, with both servers sporting larger player bases and better coverage.  

If you had a chance to fight these great servers, you know they have a lot of heart and great pvp guilds.  They earned a shot at the T1 lights.

T1 green should have traded off more.  Even if it hadn't, at least T1 red and blue should have.

Since none of that worked out and the rewards for victory are moving glacially, people are now beginning to gather in T1.  Panic from attrition and the announced end of free transfers is only going to expedite that this month.

Despite what people have said recently in this thread, SoS did actually have to recruit to maintain line up due to attrition.  They are the first T1 green server to truly need to do so.  Less than six months into the game, it is just a sad sign of the times.  

JQ did as well.  BG had its own recruitment operations.

As far as the current panic, we always knew there would be times when people would default jump to T1.  We had just hoped that there would be more rotation of those servers, over time.  Thus, it would be more NFL draft pick in its wait than a clog in the storm drain.

To use the NFL metaphor again, it would be healthier if the New Orleans Saints could have a shot at the Superbowl.  You'd still have your six Superbowl dynasties, but the wildcards help make the game more fun, grow the number of total wpvp players, and grow server pride.  Similar World Cup metaphors apply for our soccer loving international friends.

The background math isn't making that happen fast enough for the players not to get impatient.  Again, it's not just Blackgate that got affected.

TC and SoR really have earned the right at a shot at T1. SBI and IOJ might not have been in crisis right now if the scoring system did a better job of mixing things up a bit, neither of those servers deserved to be collapsing right now.


/salute

I have so much respect for everything you've tried to do with population balance issues out there Laylyn.  It truly is in the players hands now and people like you give me hope we wont blow it yet again.  ANET failed us on giving the tools to help form strong communities before launch, they failed us on keeping those communities intact via locked down server transfers, they've failed us on providing a sensible scoring system and now they are making these attempts at fixing the problems look rather shaky at best but in the end we are the ones in control here and how it goes is really up to the player base.  Are we really going to have only 1 or 2 seriously stacked servers with mile long queues?  Pretty sure we tried that before and everyone got frustrated.  People have got to care about something more than just being number 1 ALL the time or really these kinds of games are not worth it.  We will go back to being locust, running from each new shiny toy to the next leaving a wake of destruction in our path.

Killminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

Yeah, I guess in retrospect... you had no way of knowing that stacking tons of former DAoC players onto one server would result in a Tier 1 server, right?

Guess you just got lucky.

  

. . . yeah all those small scale casual DAoC / WAR guilds with families and full time jobs should have had no problem standing up to the rest of the professional hardcore gaming communities out there.     Do you have any idea how hard JQ fought to stay where it is? I was pretty proud of our little honey badgers and still would be if we were 1/2 the size and in tier 5.  Heck, half of our favorites ended up on SoR, SF and TC so really it was only about laying the ground work for a community with ties that would weather some storms.

[Laylyn]

Kreen, on 19 January 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

A good post, very well written. However, while I understand the point you are making above and agree to some extent, I do have a slightly different view. Let me qualify your point from my point of view if I may. You can disagree or agree as you see fit.

SoS only had to recruit if it wanted to continue as the overly dominant force in T1 and win the vast majority of the match ups by very significant margins and basically have the game won by Monday. If they wanted a closer game they could have chosen not to push hard on recruitment or throttle back on the long play sessions. A tricky balance I know and easy in concept but difficult in practice given the competitive nature of the game. JQ has been trying to catch up to proivde closer competition but of course the goalposts would move and hence Kurthos reference to an arms race.

Of course, your general point regarding recruitment to combat server attrition is well made for all servers.

It's very hard to gauge manning.   For example, I sent too many people away from BG with our original recruitment drive.   It would be hypocritical for me to take that point of view since I bungled it for BG myself.

I was careful, because I've killed off competition in other games myself.   Just like many poster here have.    You can be too careful and it can bite you.   The opposite is just as bad.    It's only easy to truly know in hindsight.


/salute

PariahX, on 19 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

I have so much respect for everything you've tried to do with population balance issues out there Laylyn.  It truly is in the players hands now and people like you give me hope we wont blow it yet again.  ANET failed us on giving the tools to help form strong communities before launch, they failed us on keeping those communities intact via locked down server transfers, they've failed us on providing a sensible scoring system and now they are making these attempts at fixing the problems look rather shaky at best but in the end we are the ones in control here and how it goes is really up to the player base.  Are we really going to have only 1 or 2 seriously stacked servers with mile long queues?  Pretty sure we tried that before and everyone got frustrated.  People have got to care about something more than just being number 1 ALL the time or really these kinds of games are not worth it.  We will go back to being locust, running from each new shiny toy to the next leaving a wake of destruction in our path.
  

We tried.   Completely failed ET and HoD though.   =(


/salute

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Waage83, on 18 January 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

I do not do verbal abuse. Sarcasm and ridicule maybe, but not verbal abuse. At least not after i have taken op official duty's in RK.

My Condolences are to the fact that you never get great fights if you have the zerg with you. If the other sides have a bigger zerg then you can have some great fight's, but if your numbers grow a lot then boredom will set in.

Even if SoS matches your numbers the fact that there is no 3rd side will kill most of the fights and fun there is to be had in the match. wvwvw is only great when you have 3 sides that can fight.

Now i know what BG can do and i know that we are far better then most and can put up one hell of a fight, but let's not kid our selves. Numbers are numbers and if the rumors are true then something very special will happen soon and we will not have the numbers to fight it.

BG is good, but with no major gain like SoS and JQ we will not have then numbers to fight even if we are great.

We will fight, but like i said do not be surprised if it is a little less interesting the coming months.

Oh and before some one reads the wrong thing into it. I do not blame JQ for this or SoS.

Oh no, the fights will be better from where I'm sitting. SF don't serg and PRX will be on one map at a time (just an educated guess). There may be a zerg, but it won't be where I am.

I'm sorry, but fights are what you make them. If you really define the fun of the fight by which side has which guilds, then that's your thing, not mine. JQ has consistently had lower numbers most times than the other 2 T1 servers. Only recently did we spike back up. Threads and threads of "Wow. JQ got their coverage back!" What do you think we were doing when we were outnumbered? Scrapping.

We hung on to T1 by the skin of our teeth for almost a month straight. We had members saying the same thing you are right now, and they left. Guess what? Still here.

But I'm done with the pep talk. I know your side of it and have felt like that before. Give it a week at least before thinking the numbers are too skewed for you to survive or find good fights.

[ProfGast]

Best of luck this reset everyone, old faces and new.  Let's see some fireworks and sort it out when the dust cloud settles.

[Laylyn]

Since it hasn't been said yet, gratz on the week 1 win SoS.  =)


/salute

[Killminusnine]

PariahX, on 19 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

. . . yeah all those small scale casual DAoC / WAR guilds with families and full time jobs should have had no problem standing up to the rest of the professional hardcore gaming communities out there.     Do you have any idea how hard JQ fought to stay where it is? I was pretty proud of our little honey badgers and still would be if we were 1/2 the size and in tier 5.  Heck, half of our favorites ended up on SoR, SF and TC so really it was only about laying the ground work for a community with ties that would weather some storms.

Yeah, that's super crazy.  I can't believe you guys managed to do it with all of the hype at release about how bad JQ was going to be.  No one had any idea it was going to be a stacked server.  I'm sure a lot of guilds went there for the low profile PVE type stuff, play the underdogs.

Like I said, guess you just got lucky.

[CalmLittleBuddy]

Killminusnine, on 19 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

Yeah, that's super crazy.  I can't believe you guys managed to do it with all of the hype at release about how bad JQ was going to be.  No one had any idea it was going to be a stacked server.  I'm sure a lot of guilds went there for the low profile PVE type stuff, play the underdogs.

Like I said, guess you just got lucky.

Could say the same thing about HoD. How'd that work out? As I remember it, JQ was expected to end up about 5th over all. HoD was even put in its own special designation by some prognosticators.

Picking a great server from the start is part of being a good player and a good guild. Can't fault anyone for their choice, win or lose. We all went with what seemed right to us at the time.

Yeap. Ask those from ET what they thought back then. Ask Dragonbrand in Beta 2. Truth is no one knew and no one was right about pretty much anything. Just as easy could have been JQ ending up like SBI, and still might a month later. Same type of players. Same experienced guilds. A landing spot for many from TA... you never know. Luck does play a role.

What if Agg taunts a big guild on JQ and they leave instead of WM leaving SBI. According to your theory, people on SBI could see that coming, right? Based on DaoC guilds and stuff....

Just concern yourself with handling business and let the chips fall where they may. Too much of this over the top sarcasm smacks of sour greaps..

Edited by CalmLittleBuddy, 19 January 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Kreen]

good luck to all three servers this week.

[Killminusnine]

CalmLittleBuddy, on 19 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Could say the same thing about HoD. How'd that work out? As I remember it, JQ was expected to end up about 5th over all. HoD was even put in its own special designation by some prognosticators.

Sorry man, I honestly wasn't dogging on JQ as a whole.  I'm just picking on someone who's pretending like they didn't know what they were doing.  

We're all in the same boat and at this point in the game's life we're just here to bang it out and have fun doing it.

[Cirus]

Out of curiousity do Blackgate and Jade Quarry have queues in all 4 borderlands right now?

[RawNG]

Bhanshei, on 18 January 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Well I guess you don't have to worry since JQ picked up a few big guilds of their own... Everyone should be playing for first and if your server isn't playing for first, then why are you here?  To be honest BG had the best opening night I have seen in a long time so they have what it takes!!  Thinking you can just 2v1 a certain server is a surefire way to end up third.  CARPE DIEM my friend....thats how you take first!

You don't seem have read what I said.  I didn't say that was the only way they can win, simply stating if SoS remains as is and gets bigger from other guilds going to SoS and JQ/BG remain the same you would have to 2v1 SoS into submission.

Also yes JQ is getting some attention from my guild and others which is great and I'm happy to see certain guilds are trying to spread out rather then join the most stacked server there is at the moment.  Just wish BG would get some love

Edited by RawNG, 19 January 2013 - 03:31 AM.

[Xinthai]

RawNG, on 19 January 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

You don't seem have read what I said.  I didn't say that was the only way they can win, simply stating if SoS remains as is and gets bigger from other guilds going to SoS and JQ/BG remain the same you would have to 2v1 SoS into submission.

Also yes JQ is getting some attention from my guild and others which is great and I'm happy to see certain guilds are trying to spread out rather then join the most stacked server there is at the moment.  Just wish BG would get some love

We'd love some love. But it's also fun fighting against superior numbers. Fighting against some SF and PRX on BGBL has been fun tonight, and I'm looking forward to the challenges ahead. Bring it on, guys. Blackgate is never one to back down from a fight.

[Jedbacca]

::gets popcorn::

[wondowondo]

Xinthai, on 19 January 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

Fighting against some SF and PRX on BGBL has been fun tonight

There are about 10 SF that made it to JQ before reset

Meanwhile Jed and MANY others just have to sit here and eat popcorn. I need more posts to read  

[Xinthai]

wondowondo, on 19 January 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

There are about 10 SF that made it to JQ before reset

Meanwhile Jed and MANY others just have to sit here and eat popcorn. I need more posts to read  

I figured you guys weren't all here yet, that's why I said 'some'!

[Killminusnine]

The hilarity, irony, and hypocrisy is almost too much to bear!  Fantastic!

[Popasdei]

What are some of the queue times on these servers for WvW?

[MrZero]

wondowondo, on 19 January 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

There are about 10 SF that made it to JQ before reset

Meanwhile Jed and MANY others just have to sit here and eat popcorn. I need more posts to read  

I'm working on my novel.

[Laylyn]

Since it could be argued by the mods that this thread is getting off track.   Here's the current score:



All three servers are out kicking butt. Good luck to all.   =)


/salute

Edited by Laylyn, 19 January 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[Chromatos]

Kreen, on 19 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

interesting, so the person who was repairing your wall that BankZilla complained about was Azure.power? Strange really as this is a dude who has been talking up SoS and defending SoS in the gw2 forum threads for weeks. Hence he is more likely to be a troll than a spy.

Great bit of detective work anyway

I've seen Azure Prower on SoS for months now, so you're right that it's unlikely that he's a spy. The whole situation is rather suspicious though, as he didn't seem like a troll or an idiot when I encountered him a while back.

[coronbale]

Good to see SF back in the game!  Jed, quit sniffing around our keep.  Yes, we are baking brownies in there.

No you cant have any...

[AngelSpark]

I hope I'm not the only one on our server who spots a PRX or SF tag hanging near our keeps and panics, despite the fact that their names are in green!

Great start to the week, seems the free transfers ending has reinvigorated things for a bit at the least.

[MrZero]

I can take a swing if it makes you feel better.

[FriendlyFire]

It's nice having some new, veteran, blood on JQ.

I can tell the fights are good because no one has time to post.

I hope we are making the right moves, to make the board more interesting.

[AngelSpark]

MrZero, on 20 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I can take a swing if it makes you feel better.

Well I know I've taken a few swings at you guys and PRX just to be sure, and for old time's sake.

[MrZero]

AngelSpark, on 20 January 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Well I know I've taken a few swings at you guys and PRX just to be sure, and for old time's sake.

Right now, I am drunk. I am running around Lions arch trying to kill all the JQ.

[Jedbacca]

MrZero, on 20 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Right now, I am drunk. I am running around Lions arch trying to kill all the JQ.

I almost spit my water up laughing just now

[tluv]

MrZero, on 20 January 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Right now, I am drunk. I am running around Lions arch trying to kill all the JQ.

I got a decent chuckle out of that one haha

[Wordsworth]

Why don't people post scores any more