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T1 - BG, JQ, SoS

tier 1 blackgate sea of sorrows jade quarry

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#601 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

Anyways, it's been fun, but I have to leave work now and go play this game I got called GW2. They have a World versus World feature I want to check out! ;)

(and to think some people claim this game is a bust or is dying. with this much passion, they should bottle and sell it as an energy drink. peace. no not peace. war! bye)

#602 Kreen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:28 PM

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Jade Quarry is on a similar path in that your community is becoming more important than a single guild or that all maps are playing in harmony rather than a single map of dominance..

The thing is, its actually very obvious to me that you plainly just don't get it. You appear to only be able to see things from SoS's point of view and that is something I find somewhat disturbing. JQ's community has always been more important than a single guild. That will not change. What now gives us the ability to play "maps in harmony rather than a single map in dominance" - I don't like that phrase as it doesn't work for me actually - but to the point - we are now able to do this because we are able to field enough forces for more than one map.

Our maps have always been harmonised, we have a community TS covering all maps. We have prevously moved forces around the maps to respond to hard spots but have always had to make very tough choices due to lack of bodies. The new guilds give us the ability to cover a bit more and make some of those choices easier to bear.

Edited by Kreen, 23 January 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#603 Shiren

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

Just to add some perspective, the stacked discussion is taking place between something like six or eight of the same people posting/trolling back and forth between each other (the same can be said of most of the drama in threads like this). Before we write off this whole thing as Tier 1 server drama, lets remember there are hundreds or thousands of people on the servers, the handful of people on this thread in no way represent the vast majority of the players. I've already seen several references (in this thread) to servers as a whole (both JQ and SoS) painted a certain way in the past, based on something people saw on the forums. Try to remember that something like 99% of the server doesn't post here, if you're going to take issue with things being said, try to give credit where credit's due instead of lumping it on the entire server.

#604 Kreen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Again, please be careful to not take things personally. My intent is constructive, you guys are great rivals.

I never take things personally on a forum. However that does not mean I won't come back with a robust response when I feel it is warranted.

#605 Kurthos

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:37 PM

View PostKreen, on 23 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ah I see you have gone back to being arrogant again unless I am mistaking your meaning here. Do you really need to follow the lead set but some of your other posters? I was under the assumption here that you were a thought leader. Sadly I seem to be mistaken. Please enlighten me if I have yet again taken your written word and misunderstood. Shall we expect to see an "a.b.c" post on server communities and how they work and in fact emulate "real world" social systems from you very soon?

I am sure you are not the only one here who appreciates how a virtual world system where the main protagonists are human can behave and be subject to the same dynamics as its real world equivalent.

Of course many of us realise that the new guilds who have joined our server will have influences within our current community and likewise the community will influence them. Stop stating the obvious here in a tone that suggests its some higher level thought train available to only SoS posters.

I really didn't mean to sound arrogant, usually this happens when I'm being overly honest which I'm currently doing to promote strong discussion. I wasn't chest beating my server or claiming one community is objectively better than the other. I'll word what I say more carefully to not make it seem that way. Whenever this kind of thing is pursued, I mistakenly pull away from the main discussion.

What I meant for you to get out of that sentance is highlighted in this previous post.

"Servers without these kinds of cross guild relationships will find themselves non-competitive against a server that is organized even if both servers have similar numbers of fielded players. Skill is a factor, but it is subjective as an individual guild or player will not make the difference in PPT unless they are totally not countered in their respective coverage metagame."

By this I mean that you'll see issues with future competition if they do not have similar communities built up. I hope that makes sense.

#606 Kreen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

What I meant for you to get out of that sentance is highlighted in this previous post.

"Servers without these kinds of cross guild relationships will find themselves non-competitive against a server that is organized even if both servers have similar numbers of fielded players. Skill is a factor, but it is subjective as an individual guild or player will not make the difference in PPT unless they are totally not countered in their respective coverage metagame."

By this I mean that you'll see issues with future competition if they do not have similar communities built up. I hope that makes sense.

Ok, thats fine. I really do think you need to work on your tone though. The written word is fickle and tricksy at times. (Kreen looks at himself as well)

I actually disagree with your final point though and you use of the word "similar" because there is not a single community solution that will prove to be a successful model for WvW. I don't understand why you do not see this. The evidence for diverse communities being equally successful in all endeavours is all around you. This is where I think we differ in our thinking. I see a variety of possible successful solutions and you appear to be able to only talk and discuss SoS as the only possible successful solution.

Time will tell us who has the better view.

Just to add, thank you for the discussion. Its been good to actually have a grown up discussion on a forum for a change :)

Edited by Kreen, 23 January 2013 - 07:52 PM.


#607 Wotah

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Jade Quarry is on a similar path in that your community is becoming more important than a single guild or that all maps are playing in harmony rather than a single map of dominance.

Again, please be careful to not take things personally. My intent is constructive, you guys are great rivals.

Again, I am awed at the ability for people from other servers to see our server so completely that they know what our server is becoming!

Since people can't understand sarcasm I will just add in that JQ has and will always be separate guilds, we've never had one single guild that was more important than any other.  Any thoughts to the contrary are made up on your behalf.  This is the way we've functioned since the beginning, it's what got us here, it's what kept us here, it's what will keep us here in the future.

Edited by Wotah, 23 January 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#608 ProfGast

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostWotah, on 23 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Again, I am awed at the ability for people from other servers to see our server so completely that they know what our server is becoming!
Indeed.  It is truly amazing how often observations from the outside are made.  And how accurate they always turn out to be.

Edited by ProfGast, 23 January 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#609 Kreen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostProfGast, on 23 January 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Indeed.  It is truly amazing how often observations from the outside are made.  And how accurate they always turn out to be.

for every accurate prediction I can provide you with a reference to an inaccurate one. :)

#610 Laylyn

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

View PostIDarko, on 23 January 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

If you expect to get respected for wiping RG with 10+ randoms at your side, you are not getting it. In [EU] randoms were watching on the side out of respect for the GvG.

And 40+ RG? They don't even have that many on NA right now!

RG has been extremely impressive.   BG's EU guilds have had the time of their lives fighting you.


/salute

View Postpot, on 23 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

While JQ and SoS argue about who is more stacked, one thing is for certain, BG will do the best we can with the numbers we got. BG is a stable server that doesn't implode at the drop of a hat, we've proved that. If we get knocked down to t2 because SoR is getting a t1 shot handed to them on a silver platter by a dead SBI so be it. It isn't gonna kill our server.

We made it to t1 before, got knocked down on our asses and got sent back home to T2. We brushed the dirt off our shoulder, kept fighting, getting better and trying to fill coverage gaps. We had to work hard and go something like 9-0 in T2 and slowly gain rating to get back into t1 for more epic fights.

If you enjoy being the scrappy underdog who doesn't die, you know where we be.

Word, pot.  

/salute

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 23 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I have a whole new respect for BG after this week. (did I just say that?) You guys can rock with the best. I used to have a man crush on SBI, now I have a man crush on BG. Kick ass, sea bass!

Thanks man.   =)

/salute

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I think that's something we haven't done enough in this thread.

Blackgate, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.

That means a lot coming from you Kurthos.   BG has been having the time of our lives fighting SoS and JQ.   =)


/salute

#611 ProfGast

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

Actually something just clicked... Wotah were you on JQBL last night, at Greenwater Supply camp hanging out in one of the houses?  Just curious.

#612 ketorin23

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

did anyone from JQ or BG record that giant long fight in SM last night?

i thought coron had it up but i cant find it in his stream

#613 Laylyn

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

View PostVihar, on 23 January 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

   For whatever it's worth....

   I think any discussion of "long term" is an exercise in futility.

   I doubt anyone back in October would have foreseen the situation in January.

  I doubt anyone can predict what the situation will be like in April. I doubt Tiers 1 and 2 will look anything like they are now in March and April.

   I doubt anyone can predict player migration to other games, I doubt anyone can predict what effect successful or unsuccessful updates to WvW or PVE content will have.

  I doubt anyone can accurately predict the effect of attrition on established servers and guilds for WvW.

  I just find the whole idea of "long term" concerns to be a waste of time.

   The 5 months we have been through since launch has been anything but predictable. I don't expect the next 5 months to be much different.

  I recognize the effect of the end of free transfers changing things, but I don't expect it to change the effect of player attrition at all.

  I would be very shocked if, say, JQ and SoS bear much resemblance in 5 or 6 months to what they are now.

  Time will tell.

There is no way to predict the new code changes nor the number of players that will leave the game due to attrition.  What you wrote is pretty prophetic.


/salute

#614 Wotah

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostProfGast, on 23 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Actually something just clicked... Wotah were you on JQBL last night, at Greenwater Supply camp hanging out in one of the houses?  Just curious.

More than likely.  If you're from Sexy you owned us big time.  Wasn't my call, I was like "WTF are we in a house for?  I can't see anything" and wham bam thank you mam I am dead on the floor.  

Not sure but someone said you guys were AE'ing the house too.

#615 Vihar

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:43 PM

JERICO is not often right, but he is right about SBI.

   WM departing was not the reason for SBI's demise.

#616 Leyana

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:06 PM

Let's please keep things on the topic of the actual matchup. These forums are not a chatroom. If you really want to chat that much, we have a Guru IRC here: http://www.guildwars.../irc/web-client

#617 ketorin23

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:27 PM

where is the footage from the giant 3 way SM fight last night? :P

#618 MonsterDemon

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostVihar, on 23 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

JERICO is not often right, but he is right about SBI.

   WM departing was not the reason for SBI's demise.

That's a wrong assumption.  As soon as WM left, SBI crumbled.  Ruin left ET, they crumbled.  TA disbanded in HOD, they crumbled.  Look where all the SBI big guilds are now???  Most if not all hop on and stacked JQ which I will try to do as well.  I want to be part of the stack since I am so sure that within the next 2 weeks JQ is going to smack SOS and SOS may never recover from that.  WM and Kaineng will move to tier 1 and will only be able to roll people over during their primetime and still may not be #1 unless they pickup a few more big guilds.  TL & CO will be great benefits to the WM crew already there, but they still need a little more.  If some big guilds from SOS stack into Kaineng, then you'll have a strong rivalry between JQ & Kaineng.  Until then, JQ is and will be #1 for a long time to come unless people get bored like in the HOD days where over domination bored them to death and start quitting again...  Mark this post and remember it.  It's the truth.  The reason I followed PRX into SOS back then was because I knew SOS was going to hit #1 and keep it for some time.  Not because they were heavily stacked, it was due to their Oceanic coverage.  JQ has it all going forward.  A combined SBI and JQ server along with PRX & RG makes for a server bound to be relaxing and cruising along tier1.  Sorry SOS, but I'm just speaking what I am seeing...

Edited by MonsterDemon, 23 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#619 ProfGast

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

View PostWotah, on 23 January 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

More than likely.  If you're from Sexy you owned us big time.  Wasn't my call, I was like "WTF are we in a house for?  I can't see anything" and wham bam thank you mam I am dead on the floor.  

Not sure but someone said you guys were AE'ing the house too.
You know, some of us were wondering what you were doing in that house too...  You guys got caught in the proverbial fishbarrel due to a some bad luck: turns out you can see character names in that little house, at least coming from the water side.  We saw you, stealthed in and then you were caught in a surprise attack in a narrow space.  Was kind of a pity too, you guys were the only real small ops group on that map that we saw, except for Hands Off My Octopus from Blackgate. Everyone else was stragglers or part of that EMP horde.

I'm really hoping that T1 WvW will evolve towards smaller elite groups in the future, since zerging leans towards culling and glass builds that use only tab-targetting and spamming ground targeted aoes.  Maybe the changes on the 28th will make some changes in that.  One can hope.  Map's probably too small for that though, need more No Man's Land.

#620 Global_GW2

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

Edit - Upon further reflection, this didn't need to be said.

Edited by Global_GW2, 24 January 2013 - 12:58 AM.


#621 Waage83

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

Had a few interesting Fights vs Emp Tonight. It is weird leading Militia around again and you where an intresting target to fight.

Edited by Waage83, 23 January 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#622 GoGoGhosty

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

Wow, drama city in here. I'd like 2 address two points in here.

First off, I feel like people calling JQ stacked is just a reaction to the sudden change, and how much SoS got ripped on for trying to recruit in our weak timezones. As everyone can see, we have zero presence in EU. Before, that wasn't such a big deal, because we had better coverage in NA and oceanic. Now however, JQ has superior NA coverage, as can be seen by the average PPT over this time. We would always lose a majority of our keeps and towers over EU, but it didn't matter because we had superior numbers to take them back. Now, SoS NA has to come in outnumbered and facing Tier 3 keeps across all borderlands, which is incredibly hard to deal with. Now I know the irony in this as we have been doing it to the other 2 servers for the last 10 weeks, but it is more the reaction to everyone freaking out over us trying to get EU coverage. I don't mind losing, but I do want to be able to hold keeps for more than 18 hour periods at a time. JQ has significant presence over a 24 hour period, and now have superior coverage in 2 timezones. SoS dominates in one timezone, has no presence in another, and is now the second best coverage in the third (and will be the worst if SoR makes it up here). If SoS does not get EU I fear this will not turn out well for us.


Now as for the Tsym/RG drama:

First off, I want to say I have a huge amount of respect for RG. They are an amazing guild and they do what they do better than any other guild out there. That being said, they pulled the equivalent of "1v1 me b****" when they demanded GvG. After a roughly even number of wipes between the Tsym + pugs group vs the RG + PRX group (which were pretty much even in numbers), RG basically called us out and even went so far as to talk some trash. I don't know if its just because they aren't used to getting wiped ever, or if they had something to prove, but they pretty much wouldn't take no for an answer. So we did the best we could to answer their call, we beat them in the fight (yes, with larger numbers, though not as much as they claimed), and they made a big deal over it.

I have no doubt that in a perfectly even, 25v25 fight in open field, RG would beat us. They are built specifically for that fight, they run all exotic 80s (did not see a single upscaled player on their side), they run builds specific to open field combat etc. Tsym on the other hand, has at any one point 15-30% non 80s, runs a balance of builds for open combat, siege, speed etc, and we always have new recruits running with us that are not quite up to speed. But WvW skill is not measured by who wins in a GvG fight, it's measured by what you accomplish on the field, and I believe our accomplishments speak for themselves in that regard. If people think we are terrible and want to prove it, come face us in WvW, but don't expect us to face you on your terms, we play WvW as we see fit, using any and all tools (as long as they are not exploits) at our disposal.

RG, still have mad respect for you guys, but next time take your lumps, say GG, and just jump right back into it. See you all on the field :)

Edited by GoGoGhosty, 23 January 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#623 Kurthos

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:10 AM

All servers at VERY HIGH right now. Not sure how long this will last. Take advantage now!

#624 MrZero

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

View PostGoGoGhosty, on 23 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Wow, drama city in here. I'd like 2 address two points in here.



Great post. I can't comment on the TSym/RG thing but as far as the recruitment goes, I think it was just bad timing. The post went up when you guys were steamrolling. Yes, you lost the week that the thread was posted. The weeks leading up to it, regardless what the score says, it was one sided. You are correct though. The hysteria, at this point, is about to get out of hand. It's to the point where people can't even post without the remarks becoming an argument about transfers.

For the record, I can drop multiple links that show me saying I'd rather move to JQ. Some of the posters on this very site know what I'm talking about.

I like pizza.

EDIT: I forgot to say, I usually stop reading posts as soon as I see the word stack or any variation of it. Been that way since the first time I saw CharliePrince say it in a T2 thread.

Edited by MrZero, 24 January 2013 - 12:27 AM.


#625 Kreen

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:54 AM

View PostGoGoGhosty, on 23 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:


If SoS does not get EU I fear this will not turn out well for us.


great balanced post, much respect. Don't worry, you are getting EU coverage :) Looking to next week. Again there are going to be awesome fights with all servers trying hard to win. Great stuff.

#626 Global_GW2

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:04 AM

View PostKreen, on 24 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

great balanced post, much respect. Don't worry, you are getting EU coverage :)

I saw that too. Congrats SoS! That pick up should help balance things out a bit.

Edited by Global_GW2, 24 January 2013 - 01:04 AM.


#627 coronbale

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:21 AM

View PostGoGoGhosty, on 23 January 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

First off, I want to say I have a huge amount of respect for RG. They are an amazing guild and they do what they do better than any other guild out there. That being said, they pulled the equivalent of "1v1 me b****" when they demanded GvG. After a roughly even number of wipes between the Tsym + pugs group vs the RG + PRX group (which were pretty much even in numbers), RG basically called us out and even went so far as to talk some trash. I don't know if its just because they aren't used to getting wiped ever, or if they had something to prove, but they pretty much wouldn't take no for an answer. So we did the best we could to answer their call, we beat them in the fight (yes, with larger numbers, though not as much as they claimed), and they made a big deal over it.

I have no doubt that in a perfectly even, 25v25 fight in open field, RG would beat us. They are built specifically for that fight, they run all exotic 80s (did not see a single upscaled player on their side), they run builds specific to open field combat etc. Tsym on the other hand, has at any one point 15-30% non 80s, runs a balance of builds for open combat, siege, speed etc, and we always have new recruits running with us that are not quite up to speed. But WvW skill is not measured by who wins in a GvG fight, it's measured by what you accomplish on the field, and I believe our accomplishments speak for themselves in that regard. If people think we are terrible and want to prove it, come face us in WvW, but don't expect us to face you on your terms, we play WvW as we see fit, using any and all tools (as long as they are not exploits) at our disposal.
Alright, here is the thing.  Were not going to bring this up anymore, were not going to engage this crap anymore, and were going to walk from it.  The live stream is out there, i effed up and didnt block my chat box, but in retrospect that was a very fortunate mistake.  You can hear my voice talking, you can see my tells, you can see my /team chat.  Watch the damn vid, and lets this crap drop.

At no point did I or TSYM intentionally try and cheat.  But DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.  Watch the damn vid if you care so much.  Unless my character was giving some sort of sigh language, or pugs were in the same room with my at my house, there was no way I could have cheated and not have it recorded.

Yes, a few pugs saw the fight and jumped in, but if the line between win and loss was a few pugs, it wasnt that close.  Let it go, grow the hell up, and move on.

#628 SwinkySwanky

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:57 AM

What's the saying ... me thinks thou doth protest too much.

#629 Krill

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:01 AM

All I will say is that I respect JQ's new found strength, even if it is transfer fueled, and think it will only make T1 more competitive in the long run. Their ability to field a respectable force that is decently organized on every map is impressive. BG on the other hand I'm already totally sick of. I would disregard the random dumb*** BG gank guilds that are always seem to be on JQBL spawn camping loners, throwing down a token flame ram on our tower, and disrupting lowlands, but it actually does have an effect on our ability to do much more than take hills, thus taking points away JQ, thus hurting them (BG) in the ppt spread.

Edited by Krill, 24 January 2013 - 02:41 PM.


#630 Kada

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:03 AM

So, with the way people seem amazed that JQ was going to live up to potential did any of you even PLAY GW1? HA, RA, GvG may have died but as the ally that owned House Zu Heltzer, we were turning out big numbers in JQ all day, every day to the point where JQ players could almost be held responsible for the Lux players deciding botting against us was a viable option. We were so consistent.

HzH and other guilds specifically choose JQ as our starter realm because of what JQ meant to us in GW1. To say that JQ was never meant to be a PvP viable server and that you're amazed at the way we continue to turn out and dig in our heels is pretty ignorant of the history and culture that brings JQ players together.

I've never been on any other server than JQ and I never want to - as Calm said, we have a specific lifestyle set up in our community here and regardless of a couple of people that like to self-appoint themselves server fuhrers, we're a team and we trust each other to look out for the server's wellbeing through our own guild's operations.

This is a game - it's meant to be fun and enjoyable. I've never and I mean not once in the 4 months since launch, seen a HzH commander go mental and lose his kitten and fire off the way people have in streams posted in the thread. We keep our heads cool, we try and keep things collected and we remember that we have our server-mates backing us up if we need the help.

Remember JQ - people would spend hours syncing to be able to team up with their own people to PvP for the love of it, not because of any glory because after you won, no one else got to see it but you. That's what our guilds bought to JQ in GW2; PvPing for the love of it and having fun, not for status-strutting and forum-preening.




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