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T1 - BG, JQ, SoS

tier 1 blackgate sea of sorrows jade quarry

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#631 Shiren

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

I don't think the history of JQ in GW1 is as relevant as you say. If anything, Fort Aspenwood is more analogous to WvW in play style (sieging and defending forts was the entire map) and a lot of people from FA joined the namesake server in GW2. For the vast majority of their time, FA was far more active than JQ (although the latter seems to be the only one still alive, largely because of the bots keeping the arena active, FA bots were harder to program effectively). It's a competitive server in WvW and it may even break into tier 2 in the near future, but it hasn't been tier 1 like JQ simply because it doesn't have the numbers and coverage.

And no, you can't be held responsible for Luxon bots. The bots exist because it was profitable, ArenaNet was lazy on banning them, they were easy to program and be effective and queue times were shorter on the Luxon side (this became a self fulfilling reality, the more the bots turned up, the less the players did, when the bots caused losses, the players swapped sides to fight against the bots, seeing as JQ was identical on both sides, the gameplay experience was no difference whether you were Luxon or Kurzick). None of the PvP in GW1 benefited from having superior numbers or coverage, the more skilled team, the one that played better during the match, they were the ones that won. For people to have numbers in JQ all day, you had to have equal numbers (or shorter queues) on the Luxon side. It's something I feel is missing from GW2 - a more casual PvP arena which isn't defined by zergs, coverage and weekly scores instead balanced and competitive 20 minutes (or less) matches. Also, a lot of people who did JQ did it for the Zaishen Keys and amber/title points. It was a lot more fun than grinding Mount Quinkai for title points.

The only thing that makes any server tier 1 is it's coverage and that's why everyone is flocking to the top tiers atm, because coverage is what determines a match (and it has a large impact on what you are able to do, if your server is currently low in population, even a very skilled guild on their own will have a lot of trouble accomplishing much on a map because as soon as they threaten something, zergs can transfer off other maps to crush them). That's always been the case (although I do think at launch tier 1 had queues on most maps on all servers, but even then some servers had to pull longer shifts that others to keep up with another server's coverage and that was never going to be maintained once the launch hype died down) and likely always will be the case (although the devs said they are working on giving more incentive for players to win during any time of day and be rewarded regardless of what the overall score is, this is the right direction imo, especially seeing how the current design usually results in one server dominating and the others stop turning up towards the end of the week - speaking across tier brackets, not just tier 1). As great as individual guilds are (and I always enjoyed seeing HzH in WvW simply because it was nice to see someone represent the history of GW1 in GW2), servers are made and broken by coverage. I think it's a shame that, as much as there are rivalries (and we see them in this thread) the current design of WvW doesn't really support guilds competing against each other, the focus is very much on Worlds competing against each other (which is intended, but it comes at a cost). You can face off against each other and see who won the fight (for a tower or keep, supply camp or just open field) but why did they win the fight? Are they more skilled in PvP? Did they have more real level 80 people in exotics/ascended? Is it a bigger guild? How many miltitia were with them? The only question that mattered in GW1 PvP was skill - everything else was equal, in WvW there are so many other variables that determine an outcome, the most important one to a lot of people (skill) is impossible to determine.

As far as commanders being abusive etc, I don't want to defend anyone (because I don't enjoy playing with people who lose their cool, especially if it's myself) but I do remember plenty of people in JQ (the arena from GW1, not the server in GW2) who would be very "vocal" about their "disatisfaction" with how the match was turning out and the perceived quality of their allies' performance. It's a part of online gaming, especially competitive communities.

Summary: I believe the influence of the GW1 JQ community's influence on the current state of JQ is a fair bit exaggerated, citing FA as not performing the same way as an example. There are also a couple rants on the concepts people are discussing in this thread (guild pride and achievements, coverage, motivation to continue when losing). Honestly, I sometimes wish I was on Eredon Terrace so I could participate in these discussions without having all of my points of view being dismissed as server bias or petty whinging.

#632 FriendlyFire

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostKrill, on 24 January 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

All I will say is that I respect JQ's new found strength, even if it is transfer fueled, and think it will only make T1 more competitive in the long run. Their ability to field a respectable force that is decently organized on every map is impressive. BG on the other hand I'm already totally sick of. I would disregard the random dumb*** BG gank guilds that are always seem to be on JQBL when we are spawn camping loners, throwing down a token flame ram on our tower, and disrupting lowlands, but it actually does have an effect on our ability to do much more than take hills, thus taking points away JQ, thus hurting them (BG) in the ppt spread.

If you are tired of BG, its time for them to go.

#633 Duckks

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

View PostFriendlyFire, on 24 January 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

If you are tired of BG, its time for them to go.

The motto of SBI/JQ during BG's first stop in T1.

Keep trying to make it the motto for the 2nd visit. BG thrives of it. Thats BG's path. Against the odds, never giving up.


View PostFriendlyFire, on 23 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I have found even if I walked you through it, BG would still choose a different path. I burned my self out trying to offer advice to BG, so for now, GG.


#634 Waage83

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostKrill, on 24 January 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

All I will say is that I respect JQ's new found strength, even if it is transfer fueled, and think it will only make T1 more competitive in the long run. Their ability to field a respectable force that is decently organized on every map is impressive. BG on the other hand I'm already totally sick of. I would disregard the random dumb*** BG gank guilds that are always seem to be on JQBL when we are spawn camping loners, throwing down a token flame ram on our tower, and disrupting lowlands, but it actually does have an effect on our ability to do much more than take hills, thus taking points away JQ, thus hurting them (BG) in the ppt spread.

OH no BG is trying to do things in JQ so you can not spawn camp. Truly we in BG are evil for doing that. We even sometimes put op a fight.

#635 FriendlyFire

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostDuckks, on 24 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

The motto of SBI/JQ during BG's first stop in T1.

Keep trying to make it the motto for the 2nd visit. BG thrives of it. Thats BG's path. Against the odds, never giving up.

Join JQ if you want against the odds fights.  I am sure I will get attacked for saying this, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Pushing hard and scraping points, to save your morale, isn't exactly what you describe.

The way you play the board, loses respect from both severs, even if we come here and say GG.

Edited by FriendlyFire, 24 January 2013 - 12:56 PM.


#636 pot

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

View PostFriendlyFire, on 24 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Join JQ if you want against the odds fights.  I am sure I will get attacked for saying this, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Pushing hard and scraping points, to save your morale, isn't exactly what you describe.

The way you play the board, loses respect from both severs, even if we come here and say GG.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man.

#637 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

View Postpot, on 24 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man.

And does not reflect the opinion of JQ in general.

BG does what they does, man. If I was on BG, I'd be doing exactly what you guys do. Exactly. You guys are survivors, and NOT the same server that came up the first time. That BG died. This is a new BG.

Just a quick example and kind of a comparison. On EB I was trying to run yaks from umber to Doritos. BG had a 3 man team ganking yaks. They'd hide out of render distance, see yak on map, rush in and kill it. So, I was asked to defend. The first assault, I got the yak through but died. The next assault was 5 BG, same tactic, but I had a helper. This time the yak died, but we wiped the 5 man team. The next assault was 10 BG.

They didn't flip the camp. Just stomped us 2 and killed the yak and left. Then a fourth time, same result.

So, I'm pissed off and call in the goon squad. BG team still kills yak but we roll them even numbers. Then we had 10 folks standing around to walk the next yak and the BG team moved on to easier picking.

That's where the story should end. But it doesn't. SoS rolls in with 40 players, kills yak, flips camp, takes Doritos because we couldn't get supply to it from Umber.

I applaud BG's work. They did what they should. Stop us from upgrading towers. They did it with small efficient groups and didn't stop due to death. They only stopped when we made a show of force and they knew that it was no longer worth it to attack that supply line. Very smart. Very efficient. Uses the right number of players for a job. And they didn't flip the camp and attract too much heat. If I hand't been bitching up a storm in team, they'd still be doing it right now.

SoS sent 30 to do the job of 10 and did it with overkill. They have the players to spare, so why not?

My point is BG gets the max out of their limited player base at all times. Kudos to them and I hope they stay in T1 because the fights with them are exciting, unpredictable and happen everywhere on the map.

I have no issues with this version of BG.

#638 Krill

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostWaage83, on 24 January 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

OH no BG is trying to do things in JQ so you can not spawn camp. Truly we in BG are evil for doing that. We even sometimes put op a fight.

I phrased that badly, it's BG guilds on JQBL that always seem to be ganking SoS spawn, disrupting lowlands, even joining JQ when we are north trying to push the NE tower. I don't really care about the random trolls or bored players queued for other maps, but it's the same guilds every night..they generate zero ppt for you, and in a strategic sense are actually generating negative ppt.

#639 FriendlyFire

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostKrill, on 24 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I phrased that badly, it's BG guilds on JQBL that always seem to be ganking SoS spawn, disrupting lowlands, even joining JQ when we are north trying to push the NE tower. I don't really care about the random trolls or bored players queued for other maps, but it's the same guilds every night..they generate zero ppt for you, and in a strategic sense are actually generating negative ppt.

This is the BG I see.  The points they take equate to a minus for them and normally end up as a plus, in the long run, to another server.

#640 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostFriendlyFire, on 24 January 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is the BG I see.  The points they take equate to a minus for them and normally end up as a plus, in the long run, to another server.

When they don't have enough forces to match SoS and JQ's strength, all they can do is find fights to win and have fun. I don't blame them one bit.

I'd do the same. Anything else, they'd be just piling up repair bills for maybe a +30 PPT just to lose it back in 10 minutes. So, play spoiler and make sure no one is happy, and fight for fun! Why not?

Edited by Leyana, 24 January 2013 - 11:02 PM.
No


#641 ketorin23

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

I'm more of an anzalia's pass or veloka's guy myself

lots of good fighting at both when they get assaulted

anz always gets trebbed though

#642 Wotah

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostProfGast, on 23 January 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

You know, some of us were wondering what you were doing in that house too...  You guys got caught in the proverbial fishbarrel due to a some bad luck: turns out you can see character names in that little house, at least coming from the water side.  We saw you, stealthed in and then you were caught in a surprise attack in a narrow space.  Was kind of a pity too, you guys were the only real small ops group on that map that we saw, except for Hands Off My Octopus from Blackgate. Everyone else was stragglers or part of that EMP horde.

I'm really hoping that T1 WvW will evolve towards smaller elite groups in the future, since zerging leans towards culling and glass builds that use only tab-targetting and spamming ground targeted aoes.  Maybe the changes on the 28th will make some changes in that.  One can hope.  Map's probably too small for that though, need more No Man's Land.

Yeah I think the person leading at the time wanted to take a break or something, then another guys says "wait I can see through the wall.  They're coming in!"  And that was about it we were dead.  I did get a Fear and a stomp in, but too little of an affect in the small space.

We "should" be out again tonight.

I agree it is more fun for me to do things in small scale.  I mean I know this is a zerg type game and all but we can still try to create our own version of it.  :)

Edited by Wotah, 24 January 2013 - 04:19 PM.


#643 Bina

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

Two types of people the ones that will move to the number one server and the ones that want to move to a server and beat the number one server.

For the ones that move to the number one server stop patting yourself on the back you are suppose to win.

#644 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostWotah, on 24 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yeah I think the person leading at the time wanted to take a break or something, then another guys says "wait I can see through the wall.  They're coming in!"  And that was about it we were dead.  I did get a Fear and a stomp in, but too little of an affect in the small space.

We "should" be out again tonight.

I agree it is more fun for me to do things in small scale.  I mean I know this is a zerg type game and all but we can still try to create our own version of it.  :)

Run on BG's lands, or just outside them. They like small scale fights and do them well.

I avoid the zerg like the plague these days. I've even been pulling piece of our zerg off with a quick /say "A few with me for gank squad". Sometimes I even get TOO many. People love them small battles!

#645 Krill

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 24 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

When they don't have enough forces to match SoS and JQ's strength, all they can do is find fights to win and have fun. I don't blame them one bit.

In the typical scenario on a borderland where the home server hold garrison and the two north towers, while the attackers each hold their sides tower and keep, I do agree that there is a big question of what to do. The north towers, when upgraded and properly sieged can be virtually impregnable. Many players do not have the stomach for a long, tedious siege of garrison, or the deep pockets to build a bunch of golems, which can also take a long time to properly execute. So the question then becomes whether the attackers should fight each other over southern points, which effectively helps the home server defend, or at least try to take more from the home server.

#646 Jedbacca

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:11 PM

True statement Krill.  I can only run a home borderland one or two nights a week, it's a lot of maintenance to keep up with.

#647 RivenVII

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postcoronbale, on 23 January 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

On my live feed we were hypervigilant over RG, only to get obliterated by an HnK/HB team.  You guys still bring the heat, and I dont think anyone is counting you out!  Well, noone with 2 braincells to rub together.

Sometimes, I think Coron gets the tag wrong just to taunt me :P

Edited by RivenTheValorous, 24 January 2013 - 06:46 PM.


#648 Zuffy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:37 PM

Had a lot of fun running last night in JQ BL against Work, SF, and AGG.

#649 Raif89

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

seeing as how im on SoS until the 27th, i will come out in force looking for you SF!

well a force of one that is....  but i will find you! there is a matter of some popcorn stolen that we must settle.

<sings "all by myself" to himself quietly>

#650 cjskater

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostRivenTheValorous, on 24 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Sometimes, I think Coron gets the tag wrong just to taunt me :P
coron may have just revealed his powerlevel, he knows about Fist of the North Star (HnK)

#651 coronbale

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

View PostRivenTheValorous, on 24 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Sometimes, I think Coron gets the tag wrong just to taunt me :P
Perhaps you could swing by today and carve it into my forehead like you did on opening night?

#652 Krakah

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:53 PM

View PostKrill, on 24 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I phrased that badly, it's BG guilds on JQBL that always seem to be ganking SoS spawn, disrupting lowlands, even joining JQ when we are north trying to push the NE tower. I don't really care about the random trolls or bored players queued for other maps, but it's the same guilds every night..they generate zero ppt for you, and in a strategic sense are actually generating negative ppt.

BG swinging back and forth to keep the #1 & #2 server scores closer than historic point spreads of T1 help BG more. Read up on Glicko, you will then understand why SoS is losing rating, thus also why JQ and BG are gaining rating.

Compare last week's match where BG played for the short term match position vs this week where BG got the clue bat and is playing for rating. Most would agree the match this week is far better than last weeks point spread between servers.

Edited by Krakah, 24 January 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#653 Sirandar

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

Whatever the final score,  I don't think many can deny they had a blast this week if they played WvW for any considerable amount of time.  Best action so far in my opinion by all servers.  No doubt SoS needs to step it up (again) to match JQ and BG keeps on coming at both of us with determination.  I really feel first and second will be up for grabs each week moving forward.

Hopefully all current transfers are settled in and any new transfers are able to get into their server of choice.  Welcome to the evolving tier 1!  Let's have some fun and bring on those WvW updates!!!

/cheer

#654 ketorin23

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

score update?

#655 Jedbacca

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostRaif89, on 24 January 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

seeing as how im on SoS until the 27th, i will come out in force looking for you SF!

well a force of one that is....  but i will find you! there is a matter of some popcorn stolen that we must settle.

<sings "all by myself" to himself quietly>

Raif, I found out I have a couple of guildies left out there on other servers that have been solo hunting us.  If they get an SF kill, they stop to point and laugh and continue to see if they can kill certain ppl in SF.  I believe I actually lost members to a couple other servers as well :(

#656 Raif89

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostJedbacca, on 24 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Raif, I found out I have a couple of guildies left out there on other servers that have been solo hunting us.  If they get an SF kill, they stop to point and laugh and continue to see if they can kill certain ppl in SF.  I believe I actually lost members to a couple other servers as well :(

oh noes!

Well I was on SoS just to scout it as a possible server for my guild, now I'm just waiting for the cooldown and want some fun. Figured I might as well try to hunt you guys!

#657 CalmLittleBuddy

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:01 PM

View PostSirandar, on 24 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Whatever the final score,  I don't think many can deny they had a blast this week if they played WvW for any considerable amount of time.  Best action so far in my opinion by all servers.  No doubt SoS needs to step it up (again) to match JQ and BG keeps on coming at both of us with determination.  I really feel first and second will be up for grabs each week moving forward.

Hopefully all current transfers are settled in and any new transfers are able to get into their server of choice.  Welcome to the evolving tier 1!  Let's have some fun and bring on those WvW updates!!!

/cheer

I've been in more real fights this week than any week before. I've even seen SoS running 10 man teams! *gasp!* AND the actually fought with us! *gasp!* AND killed a few of us!!! *GASP!*  (damn asthma!) Edit: putting the smiley face in for tongue in cheek effect :)

This week summary:

Fight over here. Fight there. Fight over there. Fight on that things. Dance. Fight over here. Fight in a tunnel. Fight next to sugar pumpkins. Fight a giant spider? HUH??? Fight over here. Fight that guy right now. Fight the other guy. Fight that girl. Get sworn at in map. Fight over here. Fight spills out into Lion's Arch. Fight a pillow. Fight things. Fight over there. The end.

Edited by CalmLittleBuddy, 24 January 2013 - 11:43 PM.


#658 Marrett

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

View PostJedbacca, on 24 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Raif, I found out I have a couple of guildies left out there on other servers that have been solo hunting us.  If they get an SF kill, they stop to point and laugh and continue to see if they can kill certain ppl in SF.  I believe I actually lost members to a couple other servers as well :(

our first week on SOS we had a couple guilds on Dragonbrand (the server we left then got paired against unintentionally) put bounties on coron and hunt members of all the guilds that left down lol like they would literally leave then loose their keep to defend a tower against us at times. was loltastic

Edited by Marrett, 24 January 2013 - 11:09 PM.


#659 wondowondo

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostCalmLittleBuddy, on 24 January 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

I've been in more real fights this week than any week before. I've even seen SoS running 10 man teams! *gasp!* AND the actually fought with us! *gasp!* AND killed a few of us!!! *GASP!*  (damn asthma!) Edit: putting the smiley face in for tongue in cheek effect :)

This week summary:

Fight over here. Fight there. Fight over there. Fight on that things. Dance. Fight over here. Fight in a tunnel. Fight next to sugar pumpkins. Fight a giant spider? HUH??? Fight over here. Fight that guy right now. Fight the other guy. Fight that girl. Get sworn at in map. Fight over here. Fight spills out into Lion's Arch. Fight a pillow. Fight things. Fight over there. The end.

i think you've probably fought more than one girl this week :P

#660 Bankzilla

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:58 AM



Score as of nearly an two hours ago (i think)
SoS - 196,721 +175
JQ   - 190,911 +350 +sm
BG  - 151,518 +170

That JQ coverage!
In other words hate being at work :(





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