29 replies to this topic

[Mjölner]

If this is the wrong forum, a mod will kindly move it. I was unsure at first, but...

Anyway, I was making another character earlier and as I was debating what to make him, I hit an obstacle: Canthan, Elonian, Krytan or Ascalonian? I already have two characters I consider Ascalonian (and have Germanic themed names) so I wanted a different approach. Krytan? Nah. Elonian? Saving that for when we get the Ritualist back. Canthan? Some did get out before the passage became blocked... okay, sure.
So, tweaking, fixing this and that, I hit obstacle 2: after looking Cantha up in the wiki, I see that the whole expansion is Eastern Asian themed. And my dude is not.

Oogling the wiki some more, I stumble upon this and notice the German and Russian names (not to mention the Gothic archtecture and near-Russian Orthodox religion), set in the middle of Cantha.

So, question time! Were the Kurzicks all Asian in looks as well, despite the noticeably non-Asian culture?

(It's hard to tell from GW1 screenshots)

Edited by Mjölner, 13 January 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[NuclearDonut]

They looked asian to me.

[draxynnic]

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that it's been a couple of centuries since the Canthan refugees arrived. Unless your character's ancestors have been careful about marrying within their culture, it's plausible for a character who traces their ancestry to Cantha to appear similar to the native Tyrian population. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that's why the Kurzicks look as Asian as they do in the first place.

[I'm Squirrel]

I don't know about the lore of the kurzick. But it seems as if they were originally Canthans, and when they were banished, they took up a Germanic/Gothic culture--> appearance. I have no idea.

[BuddhaKeks]

It seems to me the ascalonian look has overtaken Kryta anyway, there are barely any humans running around that look Krytan, that means brownish skintown and tribal tatoos. Okay I can understand the lack of tatoos, traditions and fashion can change in 250 years, but the climate should roughly be the same, unless the volcanic activity in the southern shiverpeaks had a major inpact on it. Though it seems to have gotten warmer there not colder, but maybe someone with more meteorologic knowledge than me can explain that. (In fact a large volcanic erruption should make the climate colder due to the ashes blocking the sun, shouldn't it?)

Anyway, there was a large wave of ascalonian immigrants, but to take over as the major population, either the immigrants must have outnumbered the indigenous population or they must have had much higher birthrates.

@Squirrel: I can't recall it saying anywhere anything about such origins for the Kurzick. We only know that the Luxons came from a different place than Cantha. Due to similarities in culture, I asume they are an offshoot of the Margonites, when they were still human of course.

Edited by BuddhaKeks, 13 January 2013 - 01:16 PM.

[Mjölner]

Quote

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that it's been a couple of centuries since the Canthan refugees arrived. Unless your character's ancestors have been careful about marrying within their culture, it's plausible for a character who traces their ancestry to Cantha to appear similar to the native Tyrian population. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that's why the Kurzicks look as Asian as they do in the first place.

I didn't think about that... and considering how devout the Kurzicks are to their traditions and faith, they'd probably keep their customs alive too. So I could name a character "Dmitri zu Heisbov" and not think it's un-lore that he doesn't  look like a typical Canthan?

Quote

I don't know about the lore of the kurzick. But it seems as if they were originally Canthans, and when they were banished, they took up a Germanic/Gothic culture--> appearance. I have no idea.

Banished? You mean when the Jade Wind hit and they returned or when the Empire of the Dragon turned them into a vassal realm?

Quote

(In fact a large volcanic erruption should make the climate colder due to the ashes blocking the sun, shouldn't it?)

Over an extended period of time, yes. When the one on Iceland had a tantrum, it didn't last that very long and might've changed the degrees for a few days... but there wasn't enough ash to affect the climate. One example that comes to mind that did significantly change the climate, was the volcano on Tambora in Indonesia that exploded in 1815: the ashcloud covered the northern hemisphere and the weather became cold and terrible and for a whole year, one could barely glimpse the sun. Snowing in june-july, migratory birds that couldn't tell up from down, crops dying...
For it to affect a whole population to the point that their bodies start adapting though? Oh, let's see... a few hundred years of living in a continuously sunless place should start showing some signs.

[Konig Des Todes]

Mjölner, on 13 January 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

So, question time! Were the Kurzicks all Asian in looks as well, despite the noticeably non-Asian culture?

Yes, and there are still plenty of aspects of their culture which is east asian - their warriors wear samurai-esque armor and the facepaint is reminiscent of geishas.

It's mostly just their names and architecture which isn't very Asian.

I, on 13 January 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't know about the lore of the kurzick. But it seems as if they were originally Canthans, and when they were banished, they took up a Germanic/Gothic culture--> appearance. I have no idea.

When you say "they were banished" are you referring to Usoku's campaign? They weren't banished - ever, in fact - but some did get exiled (not as a whole) for being anti-Imperial at that time. However, they held the Germanic/Gothic architecture long before, and as far as we know their architecture is more or less unchanged since the Jade Wind, and in fact longer before (Fort Aspenwood predating the Jade Wind). It's somewhat implied that due to how distanced they were from the empire, their culture changed little since the time of Yian Zho, the second emperor of the Empire of the Dragon, who lived about 400-500 years prior to the Exodus, iirc (this is also the timeframe from which the war with the Luxons began, and when the Kurzicks became vassals of the empire).

BuddhaKeks, on 13 January 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

It seems to me the ascalonian look has overtaken Kryta anyway, there are barely any humans running around that look Krytan, that means brownish skintown and tribal tatoos.

True, the old Krytan skintone seems to have gone away. I believe this is due primarily due to the large number of Ascalonian refugees. You do get some darker skin tones of Elona, or the skin tones of Cantha (exceedingly rare), but even families we know hold ties to Ascalon, such as Logan Thackeray's, consider themselves Krytan in GW2.

Larger numbers isn't necessary for Ascalonians' skin tone to overtake Krytan skin tones - for all we know, their skin tone might have been becoming lighter over the centuries given they were originally of Elonian descent, and all that's really needed to lighten the skin tone is enough inter-marriages (which seems to have happened). If every three out of four Ascalonians married a Krytan for 5 generations, you'll get a lot more lighter skin tones. Especially when adding those full-blooded Ascalonians and the possibility of ever-lightening skin tones into the equation.

BuddhaKeks, on 13 January 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

@Squirrel: I can't recall it saying anywhere anything about such origins for the Kurzick. We only know that the Luxons came from a different place than Cantha. Due to similarities in culture, I asume they are an offshoot of the Margonites, when they were still human of course.

No human is originally Canthan, but there's no real indication of Luxon or Kurzick (or Imperial Canthan) origins pre-Cantha. Kurzicks and Luxons were the first people on the continent, and Luxon legends mention a homeland across a great sea and nothing more.

"Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever."

From An Empire Divided - which goes on to mention relics in the Crystal Desert from over 1,000 years ago, but those belong to human Margonites.

The Luxons' original homeland may be that "someplace south of Cantha" that all humans come from for all we know, tbh.

[BuddhaKeks]

Mjölner, on 13 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Over an extended period of time, yes. When the one on Iceland had a tantrum, it didn't last that very long and might've changed the degrees for a few days... but there wasn't enough ash to affect the climate. One example that comes to mind that did significantly change the climate, was the volcano on Tambora in Indonesia that exploded in 1815: the ashcloud covered the northern hemisphere and the weather became cold and terrible and for a whole year, one could barely glimpse the sun. Snowing in june-july, migratory birds that couldn't tell up from down, crops dying...
For it to affect a whole population to the point that their bodies start adapting though? Oh, let's see... a few hundred years of living in a continuously sunless place should start showing some signs.

Which was pretty much what I meant, the only climate changing event I could think of was the new volcanic activity, which changed the climate in the southern shiverpeaks. Of course this can hardly be the reason why it would be colder in Kryta. I was thinking about it again, there is an event that could have had this effect on Kryta. The resurfacing of Orr, could have changed some ocean currents, which bring warm water and climate to Kryta. However even this isn't too likely, since Orr was there in the first place, and in the short time after Orr is sunk, Kryta is already tropical, so it was in all likelyhood tropical before. Meaning there are no, or only very minor changes to the sea currents due to sinking and resurfacing of Orr.

Konig Des Todes, on 13 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

No human is originally Canthan, but there's no real indication of Luxon or Kurzick (or Imperial Canthan) origins pre-Cantha. Kurzicks and Luxons were the first people on the continent, and Luxon legends mention a homeland across a great sea and nothing more.

"Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever."

From An Empire Divided - which goes on to mention relics in the Crystal Desert from over 1,000 years ago, but those belong to human Margonites.

The Luxons' original homeland may be that "someplace south of Cantha" that all humans come from for all we know, tbh.

True, I just see a connection between Margonites and Luxons, because they are both seafaring civilizations. They could have split before the Margonites even settled around the Crystal Sea.
Of course the similarities could also be pure coincidence, I mean there are couple of human seafaring cultures on earth too, without them being related, they simply share a common environment.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

They were pretty Asian, but dw, just because they appeared Asian doesn't mean you have to yourself. You can just be of Canthan descent.

[draxynnic]

BuddhaKeks, on 13 January 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

It seems to me the ascalonian look has overtaken Kryta anyway, there are barely any humans running around that look Krytan, that means brownish skintown and tribal tatoos. Okay I can understand the lack of tatoos, traditions and fashion can change in 250 years, but the climate should roughly be the same, unless the volcanic activity in the southern shiverpeaks had a major inpact on it. Though it seems to have gotten warmer there not colder, but maybe someone with more meteorologic knowledge than me can explain that. (In fact a large volcanic erruption should make the climate colder due to the ashes blocking the sun, shouldn't it?)

To be honest, my impression of GW2 Kryta is that it has become cooler. It's hard to explain why off the top of my head, but previously it seemed at least a Mediterranean climate and possibly subtropical or full-on tropical, while now it seems more like central/southern France.

Part of the explanation could be that Kryta has simply moved north. The coasts of the Bay of Sirens do appear to be warmer than the north, and during GW1 most of Caledon Forest, possibly Bloodtide Coast, and of course Lion's Arch itself were Krytan. Now, Kryta has shrunk to what used to be its northern reaches (recall the old name of the eastern half of Gendarran Fields...) - in GW1's time these northern regions were probably warm enough that people could wear fashions set in the south without being too uncomfortable, but nowadays the fashions are beign set by the climate of Divinity's Reach rather than Lion's Arch and Riverside Province. On top of that, Kryta today is a more equitable society than it was under the White Mantle (look at Vabbian nobles versus peasants for the effect that can have on the amount of clothing worn), and while GW1 used a single model each for male and female generic Krytans, it's possible that there was a pre-existing distribution of lighter and darker skins among Krytans, with the lighter skins likely being predominantly in the north (which would be the region least affected by the flooding). It's worth noting that both the White Mantle and the Shining Blade have members that have paler skin than the stock Krytan model, with the Shining Blade rangers and the White Mantle savants in particular being quite pale.

It's also possible that there have been actual shifts in climate. The southern Shiverpeaks have definitely changed in climate, while the northern Maguuma has dried out. It's possible that somewhere in all that northern Kryta has been cooled - possibly as an indirect effect of Jormag's activity.

[BuddhaKeks]

draxynnic, on 13 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

It's also possible that there have been actual shifts in climate. The southern Shiverpeaks have definitely changed in climate, while the northern Maguuma has dried out. It's possible that somewhere in all that northern Kryta has been cooled - possibly as an indirect effect of Jormag's activity.

Oh right, that's actually a really good explanation, thanks. Well it's borderline "A Wizard did it" but it's fantasy, so who cares.^^
I wouldn't doubt we put more thought into this now than Anet did.

[draxynnic]

Well, there is a distinction between "A wizard did it" and "Jormag's freezing of formerly temperate lowlands north of the Bay of Janthir cooled the prevailing northerly winds blowing through Divinity's Reach and Queensdale, resulting in a climate shift from subtropical to warm temperate conditions." One is simply an 'it's magic' handwave, the other goes into just what that magic was and how it generated the observed effect.

But yeah, we probably have put more thought into in than the devs. Alternatively, the devs may have decided that it was a little off having (north) Kryta and (presearing) Ascalon having such different climates despite being at similar lattitudes.

[FoxBat]

draxynnic, on 14 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

But yeah, we probably have put more thought into in than the devs.

Definitely.

Western audience (or devs?) calls for western culture as the default setting.

[Mjölner]

Hmm, I see. I haven't played Factions, so I didn't know about the rest of their society... I suppose I could play that my guy's been brought up in a Canthan (Kurzick) area and his family has been integrated to it, hence the name and religious beliefs.

Or he was found by the dredge in some kind of weird The Junglebook homage - except a singing bear, there are blind moles. Thanks everyone for taking the time on this =)

[Konig Des Todes]

Divinity's Reach had a Canthan district until it collapsed (dev reason being that eastern audience didn't like it). There's still a few in-game references to it, though it's also called the arts district around the Great Collapse itself.

[Trei]

I, on 13 January 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't know about the lore of the kurzick. But it seems as if they were originally Canthans, and when they were banished, they took up a Germanic/Gothic culture--> appearance. I have no idea.

They give me the vibe of being influenced by a mixture between Turandot and the state Eastern Europe was in during the Mongol invasions.

[Mjölner]

Konig Des Todes, on 15 January 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Divinity's Reach had a Canthan district until it collapsed (dev reason being that eastern audience didn't like it). There's still a few in-game references to it, though it's also called the arts district around the Great Collapse itself.

Yes, I heard that too. Did they say why the Asian audience didn't like it? I know there was an uproar when Blizzard released images of the Pandaren wearing samurai armour (Chinese symbol in Japanese clothes), but it doesn't seem to me that Cantha was mixed like that.

[BuddhaKeks]

I heard that asians didn't like Kaineng, because it was overpopulated and dirty, maybe it has something to do with this, that people over there feared to be represented wrong again. Which I personally think is bs, since it's a fantasy culture based on asian cultures, not an actual representation.

[Konig Des Todes]

Same reason as Pandaren it seems then - http://wiki.guildwar...Collapse#Trivia "This area was originally a completed Canthan district and included a blend of Asian architectures. However, this mix of styles received negative negative feedback from China and Korea, since those gaming markets traditionally prefer a uniform design."

Original interview article: http://selfconfessed...man-episode-34/

[draxynnic]

That would make sense - Asians as a rule tend to be more sensitive than Europeans about distinguishing between the seperate cultures, probably partially because there's a perception that Westerners have a tendency to regard Far Eastern cultures as one homogenous blob, and partially because the historical divides between nations in eastern Asia still seem to be deeper than they are in Europe. As a result, while Western audiences will tend to shrug of the 'generic fantasy medieval Europe' nation, Eastern audiences prefer any given nation to be purely China or Korea or Japan or whatever rather than a mix of influences.

[BuddhaKeks]

I hope they still do Cantha, would be a shame if missed out on an entire continent because of such complaints. :/

[Mjölner]

I hope they will as well. Okay, I can understand if they have a lot of national pride and there are differences between cultures that are huge (to them, maybe not to us), but it is just used as inspiration, not an actual representation. I don't think anyone actually believes that Cantha = Far East in every possible way.
That'd kind of be like people assuming that Skyrim = Viking Scandinavia.

[Mockingjay74]

I had heard something along the same lines, as to why Cantha wasn't going to happen. Although I never got an actual link or dev interview or anything, so I assumed it was just rumor. Hopefully it is just a rumor, it wouldn't make sense to leave such a huge part of the story hanging like that. Maybe they'll just make Cantha better off than Tyria - more reason for a beneficial dragon to reside there.

[BuddhaKeks]

I'm all for not offending people or use stereotypes that make cultures look bad, but preventing the rest of the gaming world to see content, because of nationalistic pride goes a bit too far. I get they don't like getting mixed up by clueless westerners, but mixing up cultures is a stable in fantasy fiction. If the game was about the real world and real cultures, yes mixing them up would be wrong, but it's fantasy world and Anet can do whatever they want with it and they should.

Edited by BuddhaKeks, 19 January 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Mockingjay74, on 19 January 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

I had heard something along the same lines, as to why Cantha wasn't going to happen. Although I never got an actual link or dev interview or anything, so I assumed it was just rumor. Hopefully it is just a rumor, it wouldn't make sense to leave such a huge part of the story hanging like that. Maybe they'll just make Cantha better off than Tyria - more reason for a beneficial dragon to reside there.

Sure it wasn't for the DR's Canthan district? Cuz that would make more sense than an entire continent and/or game expansion. Cutting it for favor of a portion of the demographic, that is.

And nah, no benevolent dragon. It'll be revealed that Kuunavang was the Six Gods' attempt at cloning Elder Dragons by infusing Forgotten DNA into the fetus - since the Forgotten had magic which couldn't be corrupted - thus creating a race of draconic supersoldiers, intended to protect the world against the Elder Dragons' rise. But shit hit the fan when the Jade Wind broke out.

[MCBiohazard]

BuddhaKeks, on 19 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I'm all for not offending people or use stereotypes that make cultures look bad, but preventing the rest of the gaming world to see content, because of nationalistic pride goes a bit too far. I get they don't like getting mixed up by clueless westerners, but mixing up cultures is a stable in fantasy fiction. If the game was about the real world and real cultures, yes mixing them up would be wrong, but it's fantasy world and Anet can do whatever they want with it and they should.

On that front, how many western style fantasy settings mash all western cultures into one mishmash but supposedly homogenous and unified 'occidental' nation like you so often see with exotic far east 'oriental' settings? Do they have a pantheon of gods that include Odin, Zeus and Jesus Christ analogues next to lesser gods Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Krampus? Do they have wild west cowboys in the wide plains next to knights in manors next to French-style musketeers? There may indeed have been such a thing but I hope you do see how taking license with distinct cultures from a region dissimilar to your own can produce something way too silly to stomach for people who know better.

[Red J]

MCBiohazard, on 21 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

On that front, how many western style fantasy settings mash all western cultures into one mishmash but supposedly homogenous and unified 'occidental' nation like you so often see with exotic far east 'oriental' settings? Do they have a pantheon of gods that include Odin, Zeus and Jesus Christ analogues next to lesser gods Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Krampus? Do they have wild west cowboys in the wide plains next to knights in manors next to French-style musketeers? There may indeed have been such a thing but I hope you do see how taking license with distinct cultures from a region dissimilar to your own can produce something way too silly to stomach for people who know better.

You've just described Kryta.

[BuddhaKeks]

MCBiohazard, on 21 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

On that front, how many western style fantasy settings mash all western cultures into one mishmash but supposedly homogenous and unified 'occidental' nation like you so often see with exotic far east 'oriental' settings? Do they have a pantheon of gods that include Odin, Zeus and Jesus Christ analogues next to lesser gods Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Krampus? Do they have wild west cowboys in the wide plains next to knights in manors next to French-style musketeers? There may indeed have been such a thing but I hope you do see how taking license with distinct cultures from a region dissimilar to your own can produce something way too silly to stomach for people who know better.

Yes, western cultures are often mixed up. Just look at every fantasy viking ever existing, that's just a very bland scandinavia mix. And I'm pretty sure every scandinavian is quick to tell you the difference between his and the other countries culture.
Then there is the typical anglo-franco-party mix, that's pretty much just the british isles and france with some fantasy races mixed in.
Or look at the Kurzick, they are germans mixed with slavic and asian influences. Do I, as a german, mind that? No, why would I. It's a fantasy world and they are allowed to take influences from where ever they want and mix them together. These are not actual representations of anyone. That's why the asian community crying over it just shows you two things.

1. Asians, especially the chinese don't like to be depicted in any way that could be seen as bad. Just watch Red Dawn if you don't believe me, the villians were supposed to be chinese, but they had to swap them with North Koreans in post-production, so they could market the film in China. Did europeans ever complain that they are the villians in about 50% of all hollywood action movies? Yes a little, but they didn't threaten to not show the films, because it's not that much of an issue.
The asian community however disliked Cantha, because it had the slums of Kaineng, therefore, all westerners think that "all asian cities are huge slums". They totally overlooked the beauty of Shing-Jea, or the farming area just south of Kaineng. They only focused on the negative, which Tyria and Elona also had (landscapes destroyed by war and hostile deserts respectively).
2. Asians still don't like each other very much. They aren't completely over WW2 yet and the economic power struggle between Japan, China and South Korea certainly doesn't help. They don't like to see their culture being blended together with the others, because they don't like them very much (on average, of course their are people who embrace the others culture, but I wouldn't say it's the norm). I wouldn't call it racism, but it's certainly some form of distrust and disrespect. Again look at Europe, we were the same a century ago, even worse to be honest, but we got over that after 2 horrible wars. We learned the hard way that we have to work together to make a better future. That's why the EU is a freaking great idea, maybe one of the best in recent history, even though people tend to give it very little credit, because the EU made mistakes. The good sides outweigh the bad sides though. Just look how good France and Germany cooperate, 100 years earlier their favorite pastime, was going to war on each other. East asia lacks this sense of unity.

And to clarify, not all asians behave or think like this, however the majority are, atleast in the asian GW community, otherwise this wouldn't be a problem.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Konig Des Todes, on 19 January 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Sure it wasn't for the DR's Canthan district? Cuz that would make more sense than an entire continent and/or game expansion. Cutting it for favor of a portion of the demographic, that is.

And nah, no benevolent dragon. It'll be revealed that Kuunavang was the Six Gods' attempt at cloning Elder Dragons by infusing Forgotten DNA into the fetus - since the Forgotten had magic which couldn't be corrupted - thus creating a race of draconic supersoldiers, intended to protect the world against the Elder Dragons' rise. But shit hit the fan when the Jade Wind broke out.

If any part of what you suggest end up becoming true, I am going to wander down to Anet's headquarters in person and demand they add Captain CANTHA as an NPC.

To pipe up regarding the problems Asians have with some parts of Cantha - a lot of it comes down to cultural pride. The general attitude that I've noticed is that people are offended because they feel slighted. A large part of the attitude towards western games that attempt to use East Asian culture can be described as simple derision - they're not upset that we used parts of their culture, but rather, they're upset because the writers (usually) didn't do enough research.

An analogy, though imperfect: consider your particular religious affiliation. Think of the worst stereotypes associated with that. Now imagine someone loudly proclaiming that they've done all the research and this is a faithful reproduction of what your beliefs are. Do you feel kind of offended? Because that's somewhat similar to the cultural thing that we're speaking about here.

You add in comparatively nationalistic extremely vocal posters whining about just about everything conceivable. Some Japanese posters didn't like the Kurzicks & Luxons because they're foreigners on a Japanese continent. Some Asian posters doesn't like how everything about Canthan culture is "lifted" from Chinese culture. Kaineng, itself an obvious reference to certain ancient Chinese capitals, didn't sit very well with segments of the mainland Chinese fanbase in its depiction (partly because I suspect it hit a bit closer to home than what we would expect). Heck, some people had issues with Shiro Tagachi's name.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 22 January 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 22 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Heck, some people had issues with Shiro Tagachi's name.

Yes, because clearly it should have been Tagachi Shiro-san!

/endsarcasm