15 replies to this topic

[Balthor]

What do you think is the most powerful/useful condition damage dealer in the game, for dungeons?

Assume that you are on a team without any other cond damage dealers. EDIT: Better question, assuming you have 4 direct damage dealers and can pick any one condition damage dealer to round out your party, which class would you go with?

I personally would put it with conditionmancers (Epidemic is awesome) but admittedly am still inexperienced with some classes (ex. Engineer). Engineer seems to have really powerful conditions (grenades), but isn't it hard to aim them in certain instances?

Edited by Balthor, 16 January 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[matsif]

assuming equal condition damage stat and no might, bleed is the best damaging condition.  it beats out burning after 6 stacks and poison after 2 stacks.  any full-time conditon player should be focusing on capping bleeds in your situation, with other conditions coming secondary (guardians are so common that a boss would probably have burn from the guardian more often than not).

I would put engineer and necro tied, possibly with slight edge to engineer.  if you cap out bleeds on any other class you will have better condition damage overall than a kit engy due to kits not taking weapon stats into account, but the shear spamability of nades with shrapnel and sigil of earth along with shrapnel grenade on cd is hard to beat.

in your situation also take into account that engy can still keep up nice bleeds without shrapnel traited, but then apply burn as well with incendiary powder traited, while necro cannot apply burn.  engy can also just about cap vulnerability without even trying.  both can perma-poison so it's a non-factor in comparison.

after necro and engy, I'd say shortbow ranger with traps is up there as well, although not as good as the other 2 as epidemic and grenade aoe beat it out for groups and I personally can never get to cap on my ranger, although gear-wise my ranger isn't fully dedicated to bleed stacking.  someone with more experience with ranger should comment on it.

[Evans]

I think necromancer is better at keeping bleed and poison going, while the engineer adds in burn easily but has a harder time maxing bleed and poison. Of course necromancer has easy access to 10 stacks of might which pump up condition damage.

In the end I'd also put necromancer and engineer on the approximately same level. Both are simply amazing at pumping out conditions.

[Senatic]

Well I keep 20-25 stacks of bleed with about 2k condition damage (when sigil of corruption is at 25stacks)  on my Elementalist as well as constant burning.

[Kovares]

One thing to note first: condition builds do not work in dungeons currently, outside of premade groups that go out of their way to make sure only 1 dedicated bleed character gets to apply bleeds, because any good condition build will probably hover at 20-25 stacks of bleed anyway by themselves.

Also, do not discount dual dagger thieves and their caltrops builds. They might have slightly lower theoretical maximum stack upkeeps, but their rampup to 20 stacks is a hell of a lot faster, and they don't lose anything if their rotation gets disrupted, whereas most other condition builds rely on perfect execution in order to reach their maximum dps.

In the end, concerning bleeds only, I would actually rate thief with a slight edge at the top for actual damage, and engineer and necro at a tie below that, because their potential is held back too much by current gameplay mechanics. (Worthlessness of other conditions mostly on part of the engi, and the bleed cap that prevents epidemic necro groups from being capable of godlike damage against groups)

[Thaddeuz]

You forget about Engineer's Vulnerability which is one of the best condition in group since this boost dmg for everyone in the group. I think this is what give the advantage to the engineer.

Also, i'm creating a condition build on my Elementalist. I swap between Fire and Earth to do dmg. In Earth the auto-attack can stack 20 bleed (don't think i can go higher), in Fire my might stack is always between 15-25 with perma burn. But sure its not as powerful as my Engineer.

[Balthor]

Good points, and it's fair that I was a little vague in the OP. Edited OP:

Better question, assuming you have 4 direct damage dealers and can pick any one condition damage dealer to round out your party, which class would you go with?

Edited by Balthor, 15 January 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[NuclearDonut]

Balthor, on 15 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Good points, and it's fair that I was a little vague in the OP. Edited OP:

Better question, assuming you have 4 direct damage dealers and can pick any one condition damage dealer to round out your party, which class would you go with?

Necro only because Epidemic. It's insane that that skill is on a 15 second CD.

[FoxBat]

NuclearDonut, on 16 January 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Necro only because Epidemic. It's insane that that skill is on a 15 second CD.

This depends alot on how much time you spend fighting trash/adds vs. skipping/ignoring them. Still a pretty crazy skill though.

[NuclearDonut]

FoxBat, on 16 January 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

This depends alot on how much time you spend fighting trash/adds vs. skipping/ignoring them. Still a pretty crazy skill though.

True, but the insanity of the skill comes from being able to turn one conditionmancer into five on a 15 second CD.

[matsif]

NuclearDonut, on 16 January 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Necro only because Epidemic. It's insane that that skill is on a 15 second CD.

I'm still gonna stick with grenade engy because of the vulnerability stacks boosting your high dps party's dps even higher.  yeah epidemic is nice, but it will really only be spreading bleeds from you unless you have other people applying vulnerability or other conditions, which isn't the situation the OP is applying here.  

a 20-25% dps boost along with capping bleed is a huge advantage, and the engy can do it all at 1500 range, top it off with poison and ice, and provide some party support by swapping out to elixir gun or carrying other elixirs.  the necro major condition builds are basically only built around doing that condition damage, while the engy can provide that extra support which, in the OP's situation, might save the day if a lag spike hits or a mistake is made.

Edited by matsif, 16 January 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[Atamaz]

Necro also apply weakness(10 sec) aoe, may give protection with well (if traited), chill with blind(if traited) and staff#3, and fear.
Engy with 'nades have huge bleeding, blind, chill and poison + passive vulnerability, but outside granade kit, with pistol/EG you just reach 6-8 bleed, poison, 1s weakness(EG), burn, blind and confusion(pistols) + random boon if you have elixirs.

[coglin]

Engineer also has one other thing the necro doesn't have. The trait coated bullets. Because all pistol skills are aoe, coated bullets allows them to over step the 5 target limit with aoe. Explosive shot can hit an infinite number of targets. In its explosion radius, while bleeding them all

[The Shadow]

matsif, on 16 January 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

snip

Hybrid Necro (Scepter/ Dagger + Axe/ Focus) can stack vulnerability just as well as any Engie. While maintaining more potent bleeds (BiP) on more foes (Epidemic). Also can offer support to a team via wells; AoE Heal, AoE Blind, AoE Condition conversion etc... all while being far more durable than an Engie.

A Necro is the first class I'd pick (given I had the choice) to do anything.

[matsif]

The Shadow, on 19 January 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Hybrid Necro (Scepter/ Dagger + Axe/ Focus) can stack vulnerability just as well as any Engie. While maintaining more potent bleeds (BiP) on more foes (Epidemic). Also can offer support to a team via wells; AoE Heal, AoE Blind, AoE Condition conversion etc... all while being far more durable than an Engie.

A Necro is the first class I'd pick (given I had the choice) to do anything.

Assuming you're bringing BiP and Epidemic on your necro, you're limited to Well of Blood and 1 other well, while with my engy I can carry an elixir gun and offer an aoe heal and regen and another elixir for an aoe revive (elixir r), aoe offensive buff(elixir b ), aoe condition conversion(elixir c), aoe stability or stealth (elixir s), or a combo field(elixir u).  On top of this I can carry elixir h for an aoe defensive buff, and if I want I can drop the elixir gun all together for another one of the elixirs above.  Not to mention supply drop for another aoe heal and an immobilize and a bunch of med kits.

At 1500 range you have plenty of time to move out of the way if you draw aggro, which isn't as easy at 600 range on your axe.  At  600 range you are also in range of many large aoe attacks from bosses in dungeons.  Also with the axe out you lose a bunch of bleeds to build up your vulnerability, while with grenades you build up both bleeds and vulnerability at the same time.  Within 6 or 7 throws of grenades (happens relatively fast) you've applied 20+ stacks of vulnerability and bleed, along with poison and ice.  With an auto-attack chain -> grasping dead -> enfeebling blood -> BiP -> dealthly swarm -> epidemic chain, you have 8 attacks to get a similar amount of bleed spread around, but none of the vulnerability to the group.

I won't disagree that if something gets to you necro is more durable because of death shroud or the fact that it is possible to get more powerful bleeds from necro stemming from BiP and weapon stats having meaning.  But in my experiences playing both classes as condition classes, engineer is easier to apply those bleeds and get the number higher faster with better vulnerability spam, while necro offers slightly more condition damage and a better spread of conditions through epidemic.  I prefer engineer for this role, but I do play my necro as well for it as I enjoy both play styles.

Edited by matsif, 19 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[SacrificialHymns]

I'm going to level a character with my friends. I'm juggling between Necromancer and Engineer myself. I want to be valuable in PvE (dungeons) and WvW with conditions and they both look like they're very similar. I want to have a character that can also choose to be bursty if I want to. I've seen bursty necros before with Axe/Focus and Dagger/Warhorn with Life Blast with death shroud bursting for around 4-7k per burst with axe, 4-6k hits with life blast from death shroud (with vulnerability). Pretty good IMO. I will be playing mostly condition builds but can Engineers be very bursty as well? Long question but I've had a really hard time choosing. Cheers.