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"Amazing" design.


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#1 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

Posted Image

Why would this be considered good design? An area where you can barely see anything, with narrow ledges that you need to traverse using the game's poor control system, while fighting foes that fear you and being surrounded by more foes that are incredibly easy to target due to the insanely poor targeting system, which then puts you into combat mode, decreasing your ability to jump, ...
Now, clearly, there are even worse offenders than this, but that just makes it worse - this isn't the worst piece of shit-ass design one will encounter in this game.

Why must the difficulty in this game be achieved through moronic/poorly executed ideas instead of the game actually being difficult? Why must the players find themselves fighting the controls or the poor camera instead of their opponents?


EDIT 1:
The reason why I singled out THIS JP was because I was doing it and was reminded of THE STUPID DESIGN THAT I EXPERIENCED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE GAME. It served as a reminder so I plastered a shot of it, plus it helps explain the problem more visually.
So advice on how to finish THIS JP, while interesting, isn't the point of this. ^^

EDIT 2:
Read EDIT 1. Seriously.

Edited by Protoss, 15 January 2013 - 04:10 PM.


#2 turbo234

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

Everything you've mentioned is literally why that area exists.

#3 FoxBat

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

You're supposed to actually fight those priests. They aren't that hard. If you want to jump past them you deal with the consequences.

Don't really get what you are ranting about "poor control system" when it's bog standard WASD + mouse turn. Maybe you need to stick to RTS if walking is so difficult?

Any targeting failures are a flaw of targeting UI. It's not a design flaw when mobs surround you.

#4 Evans

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

Maybe I was just incredibly lucky, but when i stumbled across that puzzle it took me like 5 minutes and neither crows nor shaman's even got a hit on me. It was ridiculously easy in my opinion.

#5 Heart Collector

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

Of all the things to complain about, you found the games easiest jumping puzzle :mellow:

Edited by Heart Collector, 15 January 2013 - 10:44 AM.


#6 Lordkrall

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

People want challenges, better that they add the challenge to the optional parts of the game instead of forcing you to do it as a part of the Personal story or such.

Jumping puzzles should require work, knowledge and control. That is their whole point, if you can't handle them then you are simply not meant to do them. Simple as that.

#7 Pexx

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:05 AM

As far as jumping puzzles go, this is a medium difficulty one (for harder ones, see Griffonrook Run). They are designed to give a slight challenge (and thus why they are optional), so expect to see some game elements presented in a way that limits or hampers you to progress. It's fine for the context of what it is. If it was for something different (i.e. mainstay progression fare) then I could see the point you are trying to make.

#8 Trei

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

That's a beautiful screenshot man.
Is it with or without AO?

:D

#9 Astral Projections

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

If you jump over from the ledge at the left of where you are in the picture to the spot where the copper node is, it isn't near as bad. You bypass the ravens at the start that way.

#10 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:09 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 15 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

You're supposed to actually fight those priests. They aren't that hard. If you want to jump past them you deal with the consequences.

That's the point here - what you should be doing here isn't difficult. The difficulty is achieved by making the room completely dark so you can't see anything. Or being KDed of the ledge. The difficulty here is cheap.


View PostFoxBat, on 15 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Don't really get what you are ranting about "poor control system" when it's bog standard WASD + mouse turn. Maybe you need to stick to RTS if walking is so difficult?

Do you play Mario with WASD+mouse? Certain control system work for certain content. And that means choosing a select control system should dictate the content that makes sense.
I do not think that this sort of content is the best content that works with this control system.



View PostEvans, on 15 January 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Maybe I was just incredibly lucky, but when i stumbled across that puzzle it took me like 5 minutes and neither crows nor shaman's even got a hit on me. It was ridiculously easy in my opinion.

Absolutely. I've restarted my characters 30+ times and they pretty much always do this area. Which means I am constantly doing this. And sometimes I'll breeze through it, while other times I'll give up in frustration. I am not losing because I couldn't figure out what to do or how to do it - I lose because of what the game decides to randomly throw at me. Or, I win because the game doesn't.
That feels cheap.

#11 dondarrion

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

It's a jumping puzzle, you'll meet both difficult jumps, obstacles on your way, and even mobs you have to fight in tight spots.

Rather than complain, thank you ArenaNet for making all these jumping puzzles - you even made WoW copy you in Mists of Pandaria, hahaha! :D

#12 FoxBat

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I do not think that this sort of content is the best content that works with this control system.

Nothing wrong with this particular JP design if you're saying JPs in general are a bad idea.
Meanwhile 3D platformers continue to be played in spite of them being harder to judge distance and line jumps up on than 2D.
And the analog stick is not really any help over a mouse IMO.

Camera angles are a common complaint on bad 3D platformers though, here you can at least adjust your camera, but you can get on Anet's case when there isn't enough ceiling room. Except that's not an issue in this puzzle.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 January 2013 - 11:44 AM.


#13 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

I happen to enjoy the puzzles with dim lighting, narrow ledges and a few obstacles along the way!  It makes them a little more interesting.  Does that mean it's amazing design?  Of course not, but I don't think getting frustrated with certain jump puzzles mean they are poorly designed.

Thanks for reminding me that I have a couple left to finish!  :)

Edited by Strawberry Nubcake, 15 January 2013 - 12:14 PM.


#14 AKGeo

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

If you learn how the ravens work, they don't knock you off the rocks. You don't have ravens on the rocks where you're fighting the shamans. The hardest part is dealing with the two end shamans, with the toughest transformations in the game. NPC Snow Leopard transformation is ridiculous. But for any level 80, it's all easy. If you can't do it right now, come back when you're a few levels ahead of the area and can lay some smackdown. Or learn how to jump faster than you can be hit. Once you're on another rock, you drop combat with the various shamans on earlier rocks. And it's not even that dark! Have you done the pirate JP in lion's arch yet? How about the dark room in EB? I didn't think so.

Oh, and those shelk have a fairly high dye drop rate I've noticed. I got one every time I went through that puzzle.

Edited by AKGeo, 15 January 2013 - 12:17 PM.


#15 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:18 PM

And don't even get me started on crap like this:
Posted Image

I get that it makes sense from a lore perspective to not build massive underground tunnels, but when you can't even see what's happening because the camera goes berserk due to the lack of space, you either screw the lore or you don't include parts like this.



EDIT:

View PostAKGeo, on 15 January 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Have you done the pirate JP in lion's arch yet?

I simply changed my gamma. Sure, the game looked like shit, but there was nothing difficult about it. That's why I am saying that this crap is a cheap way to increase difficulty.

Edited by Protoss, 15 January 2013 - 01:21 PM.


#16 Gilles VI

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

It's a jumping puzzle, those areas are specificially designed to be hard to traverse..

#17 Arquenya

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

Mr. Protoss clearly isn't amused ^_^

And I have to admit: it should be posisble to lock the camera view, and to be able to zoom in a bit more as well.

View PostGilles VI, on 15 January 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

It's a jumping puzzle, those areas are specificially designed to be hard to traverse..
I think 95% of the so called "jumping puzzles" (vistas) don't have a lot to do with "jumping" challenges but with "finding the way up", which I hardly find fun or exciting. Once you found it they're usually very easy. Nothing puzzly or challenging about them, not like for example the winterday one (which was very hard but fun for people like me).

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I simply changed my gamma. Sure, the game looked like shit, but there was nothing difficult about it. That's why I am saying that this crap is a cheap way to increase difficulty.
I really had to laugh about that! :D

Edited by Arquenya, 15 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.


#18 Spearcrusher

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:12 PM

Oh goddammit do people really have to complain about EVERYTHING ? It's a jumping puzzle it's meant to be hard.There are enough people who do them if you can't then it is a problem with you and not a "bad design".So tired of crybabies. If you manage to do hard stuff you get a high reward ,thats how the world works.And if you can't then stop or try harder..

Edited by Spearcrusher, 15 January 2013 - 02:17 PM.


#19 Mura

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

What is the name of the jumping puzzle in the first screenshot, or what zone is it in?  I haven't done that one yet.  Jumping puzzles are amazing design because lots of people really do enjoy them, and this game has so much to do, that if you don't enjoy those, then go do something else.  I couldn't even complete the Mad King Clock Tower one, but I didn't rage, I just went to wvw.

#20 Heart Collector

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

And don't even get me started on crap like this:

I get that it makes sense from a lore perspective to not build massive underground tunnels, but when you can't even see what's happening because the camera goes berserk due to the lack of space, you either screw the lore or you don't include parts like this.

I must say agree with you about this. I hate going for that skillpoint on my alts, constant respawning worms + screwed up camera = you're gonna have a bad time ><

View PostMura, on 15 January 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

What is the name of the jumping puzzle in the first screenshot, or what zone is it in?  I haven't done that one yet.  Jumping puzzles are amazing design because lots of people really do enjoy them, and this game has so much to do, that if you don't enjoy those, then go do something else.  I couldn't even complete the Mad King Clock Tower one, but I didn't rage, I just went to wvw.

It's Shaman's Rookery in Wayfarer Foothills. It's easy as a puzzle and not punishing as you can't actually fall to your death, it's more of an "intro puzzle" to me :P

#21 Beta Sprite

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

And sometimes I'll breeze through it, while other times I'll give up in frustration. I am not losing because I couldn't figure out what to do or how to do it - I lose because of what the game decides to randomly throw at me. Or, I win because the game doesn't.

Honestly, this sounds to me like you haven't really gotten down the timing to get through this jumping puzzle.  Sometimes you're lucky and make it through, and sometimes you're not and you don't, and I think that's how they're meant to be.  Getting down the movement of the ravens and positioning yourself so that the shamans' knockback doesn't send you off the edge requires some extra work.

I had the same problem with the ruins in the southeast corner of Plains of Ashford, and I ended up getting through by luck (definitely not skill) and never going back.  If you don't like a jumping puzzle, move on to a different one that you do like.

#22 xtbx

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Why would this be considered good design? An area where you can barely see anything, with narrow ledges that you need to traverse using the game's poor control system, while fighting foes that fear you and being surrounded by more foes that are incredibly easy to target due to the insanely poor targeting system, which then puts you into combat mode, decreasing your ability to jump, ...
Now, clearly, there are even worse offenders than this, but that just makes it worse - this isn't the worst piece of shit-ass design one will encounter in this game.

Why must the difficulty in this game be achieved through moronic/poorly executed ideas instead of the game actually being difficult? Why must the players find themselves fighting the controls or the poor camera instead of their opponents?


EDIT:
The reason why I singled out THIS JP was because I was doing it and was reminded of the stupid design that I experienced in other parts of the game. It served as a reminder so I plastered a shot of it, plus it helps explain the problem more visually.
So advice on how to finish THIS JP, while interesting, isn't the point of this. ^^
poor control system is actually just your poor skills in controling your character
about visibility - it's your poor skills in setting your monitor brightness corectly

I did'n even knew it's JP till I got the reward for completing it ... just admit that you are bad and stop raging at forum ;)

#23 Arquenya

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:46 PM

View Postxtbx, on 15 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

I didn't even know it's JP till I got the reward for completing it ... just admit that you are bad and stop raging at forum ;)
I seem to have completed 4 "official" jump puzzles according to my exploration achievement list .. I still have no idea whatsoever when and where I did it .. on the other hand I only completed the Wintersday jump puzzle after ~150 tries .. which makes me guess that they're all very different ;)

#24 Gilles VI

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostArquenya, on 15 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Mr. Protoss clearly isn't amused ^_^

And I have to admit: it should be posisble to lock the camera view, and to be able to zoom in a bit more as well.


I think 95% of the so called "jumping puzzles" (vistas) don't have a lot to do with "jumping" challenges but with "finding the way up", which I hardly find fun or exciting. Once you found it they're usually very easy. Nothing puzzly or challenging about them, not like for example the winterday one (which was very hard but fun for people like me).


Exactly, there is nothing hard about them, so no reason to QQ..

#25 xtbx

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostArquenya, on 15 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I seem to have completed 4 "official" jump puzzles according to my exploration achievement list .. I still have no idea whatsoever when and where I did it .. on the other hand I only completed the Wintersday jump puzzle after ~150 tries .. which makes me guess that they're all very different ;)
ye they are ... this particural one is, as was stayted before, a starting one therefore the low difficulty

I have completed all JPs (my favorit part of the game) and the event ones were one of the most difficult - unfortunatelly mainly because you had to hurry ...

#26 sevalaricgirl

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

It was one of my favorite jumping puzzles.  I love the design, sorry.  I think the game is designed incredibly well.  The only problem I have with the game is the atrocious writing.

#27 Resolve

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

The funny thing is that it isn't even a hard jumping puzzle.

#28 Darkobra

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

View PostSpearcrusher, on 15 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Oh goddammit do people really have to complain about EVERYTHING ? It's a jumping puzzle it's meant to be hard.There are enough people who do them if you can't then it is a problem with you and not a "bad design".So tired of crybabies. If you manage to do hard stuff you get a high reward ,thats how the world works.And if you can't then stop or try harder..

Ok. Let's play your game. I've done every jump puzzle. Where's my high reward?

#29 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

Not the biggest fan of jumping puzzles myself, but this one is certainly doable. The most annoying part are the ravens, but the rest after that is a cakewalk.

I advise you to do jps with a friend who is good at them (and not arrogant about it), that way he/she can show you where to jump and when. I did many jps with a friend on another server, and I actually to look forward to more as soon as guesting is implemented (we both can't our servers because of our guilds).

#30 MrForz

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

I'm not a fan of jumping puzzles, and poorly designed difficulties such as darkness (WvW and the pirate's revenge in LA) but please, why did you have to mention that one.

Fight priests, wait for crows to fly away, walk. (or Jump)

Edited by MrForz, 15 January 2013 - 04:02 PM.





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