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Why Dungeons Are Not Much Fun

pve dungeon raid guild wars 2 professions structure end game

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#1 Theboo25

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 01:22 PM

Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I've played Guild Wars 2. I get on for the events, but not much more. Still waiting for sPvP to be finished. For now I play whatever (Borerlands 2, Torchlight 2, Transformers). But recently I was talked into trying RaiderZ. Its a pretty good Tera-type combat MMO with a much better F2P structure. Its new so I'll give it leway on its lack of content. But what it does have is raids (obviously). Not 45-man like WoW, but smaller structured 5-man raids like dungeons in Guild Wars 2. So when I got to the end game, I was expecting the same effect as Guild Wars 2. I'd farm it until I got the gear I needed, then I'd probably stop until I heard they released new content. But no, the class structure and how they make you fight in the dungeons is really entertaining. It made me think of why I don't enjoy the dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Because there is no trinity, all classes are built for themselves and for themselves only. If you can't take care of yourself in a fight, its your loss. While that is nice to only have to rely on yourself to survive, it takes a lot of the coordinaiton and teamwork out of the picture. I'm finding the boss structure and synergy of the classes to be a much more lasting experience than having a group of over geared DPS where you just roll around shooting fireballs until you finally notice the room is clear. I'm not saying we need the trinity back in Guild Wars 2. I would just like to see classes stand out more on their own for being special. Not just all different types of DPS. And if the bosses could really find a way to make it work, that would be awesome.

Here's a video of the first end game dungeon in RaiderZ:

Let me know what you guys think.

#2 actionjack

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:11 AM

I like your observation, and fully agree.

Dungeon in GW2 feel lacking and not very fun.  Beside need to grind for that nice looking gear, there feel not much purpose/ drive/ reward to do a dungeon.

Not sure what would a magic-bullet fix to it (improve combat?  improve reward? trinity?), but need something more to make it more fun.

#3 Arquenya

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

I do agree that GW2's current system without any noticable teamwork and basically being a 5 individuals doing their own thing isnt really appealing to me.

Going back to "some tank mysteriously gets all the aggro and the rest just dps and heal away" isn't either, though. I like my opponents to act in a logical way, e.g. like you and I would. Bodyblocking, snares and knockdowns would therefore be more realistic and acceptable ways to implement that kind of thing in my opinion. But unfortunately GW2 is lacking options to do that kind of thing too, mainly due to long cooldowns and bosses "immunity".

Edited by Arquenya, 16 January 2013 - 11:28 AM.


#4 Gilles VI

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostTheboo25, on 15 January 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

It made me think of why I don't enjoy the dungeons in Guild Wars 2. Because there is no trinity, all classes are built for themselves and for themselves only. If you can't take care of yourself in a fight, its your loss.

Let me know what you guys think.

Well I can only suppose you played with pugs?
When playing with friends/guildies it's very easy to make some sort of trinity, with someone who leads, people doing damage, and then people who support/control.

I get immense satisfaction when I can protect my DPS party members on my ele by pushing away, stunning, chilling,... other enemies whily they spike down a enemy.
Or how I run in first with my guardian and make sure my thief never gets focussed.
Or on my warrior how I'm able to quickly move to an enemy that is pressuring my squishy allies, and how I'm able to keep him busy/finish him to protect my party members.
...

#5 Eon Lilu

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

View PostArquenya, on 16 January 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

I do agree that GW2's current system without any noticable teamwork and basically being a 5 individuals doing their own thing isnt really appealing to me.

Yeah that is one of the biggest issues with the game and it breaks alot of social aspects in the game too, they need to work on making it feel more like a team working together than just 5 individuals working next to each other, you feel more like a team in fractals and in some of the dungeons, but you barely notice combo's, finishers or team work at all with the professions at the moment.

I think the system just needs fleshing out more and building on more of what they already have, make the combo's more benificial and more obvious, make the professions a little more reliant on each other, not like a trinity or you fail etc but just a tiny bit more reliant on others to get through content.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 16 January 2013 - 12:10 PM.


#6 beadnbutter32

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

Oh boy one of those "insert standard Anet boiler room astroturf counter attacks here" type of posts.

Typical types of responses to expect when GW2 dungeons are criticized or the trinity is mentioned:

-  What kind of a loser PUG social out cast are you?
-  Learn to play, twitch combat with a few combos here and there to spice the visuals up ought to float everyone's boat.
- your just a hater, I wish you would leave and take the hoard of nay sayers with you.
- yadda yadda yadda...

To stay on topic, I agree with the OP 100%.

And I agree about the combos.  Combos are so nerfed due to balancing for PVP.  Unfortunately that makes 95% of them pretty useless in PVE. Same for most skills.  Watered down to balance a part of the game few people take part in, which results in most people ignoring most of thier skills and only using the handful that were the least nerfed.  It is a sin, so many MMO's make, and shows how piebald stuck in the past and unable to really do something ground breaking Anet is.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 16 January 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#7 Swoopeh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:54 PM

The problem with posts like these is that it states someone's opinion as fact. Unless everyone agrees with you it's still just your opinion. Personally I really enjoy the dungeons, strangely balanced as they are (with a few exceptions).

There are plenty of dungeons in the game that do require teamwork, even some kind of voice chat. Fractals brought a lot more of those to the table but there's a lot of synced switch pulling/orb tossing/add killing/bomb-picking-upping/etc in the original dungeons too.

They're good fun romps that you can really get better at, not so much by gear but by learning them and discovering how your class can help, which is a trademark of good dungeon design. For example: the first time we did AC we had no idea what to expect and we wiped horribly. Now we clear it without a hitch in 20 mins.

That's not to say that GW2's dungeons don't need to be looked at because some parts are just tedious, unbalanced or still buggy and other parts are a bit too much faceroll. But, at least to me and a lot of my guild members, they are fun.

#8 ayoblame

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 16 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Oh boy one of those "insert standard Anet boiler room astroturf counter attacks here" type of posts.

Typical types of responses to expect when GW2 dungeons are criticized or the trinity is mentioned:

-  What kind of a loser PUG social out cast are you?
-  Learn to play, twitch combat with a few combos here and there to spice the visuals up ought to float everyone's boat.
- your just a hater, I wish you would leave and take the hoard of nay sayers with you.
- yadda yadda yadda...

To stay on topic, I agree with the OP 100%.

And I agree about the combos.  Combos are so nerfed due to balancing for PVP.  Unfortunately that makes 95% of them pretty useless in PVE. Same for most skills.  Watered down to balance a part of the game few people take part in, which results in most people ignoring most of thier skills and only using the handful that were the least nerfed.  It is a sin, so many MMO's make, and shows how piebald stuck in the past and unable to really do something ground breaking Anet is.

I'm sorry, but you kinda missed something pretty important here. Guildwars PvP has a separate rule set and can have it's skills adjusted to only effect pvp.  Maybe you're talking about WvW but that's not pvp. So your whole watered down to balance idea is kind of... wrong?

Unfortunately this only applies to skills tho so you've got plenty of things that they change for pve with talents that cause unexplected pvp consequences IE mesmers and all dat might.

Edited by ayoblame, 16 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.


#9 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

View Postayoblame, on 16 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but you kinda missed something pretty important here. Guildwars PvP has a separate rule set and can have it's skills adjusted to only effect pvp.  Maybe you're talking about WvW but that's not pvp.

Then who the *ens have I been fighting all this time... you mean to tell me all those Sea of Sorrows Invaders are mobs?  Wow this game has amazing AI!  They act just like opposing players.

#10 Tyrantscreed

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:26 PM

Well to begin with the hack/slash combat style of Vindictus and RaiderZ is much better than any other playstyle (mmo-wise). I would still be playing Vindictus if only it wasn't super grindly at higher levels - the graphics and the adrenaline rush I get from that game is so pretty darn great. I don't get that kind of adrenaline rush in GW2 dungeon. But then again, the fighting mechanics are different altogether.

That and Nexon runs NA Vindictus...shits obviously gonna hit the fan.

#11 ayoblame

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

View PostLunacy Polish, on 16 January 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Then who the *ens have I been fighting all this time... you mean to tell me all those Sea of Sorrows Invaders are mobs?  Wow this game has amazing AI!  They act just like opposing players.

Developers have made a clear distinction when it comes to the rule sets and separate PvP from pve/wvw. WvW uses the pve rule set. However, this is off topic and I was simply informing you that balance changes to pve/wvw generally do not occur as a way to balance pvp. You can argue about what you consider pvp but, we aren't Anet we don't name the games or make the rules.

#12 Humfly

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 16 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

They're good fun romps that you can really get better at, not so much by gear but by learning them

Good fun? Matter of opinion and having to 'learn them' is most of the problem. Go into a dungeon you don't know or with others who don't know and you get your butt kicked. Learning a dungeon isn't fun. When you have learnt the dungeon they are a tedious grind for tokens and drops which you can make a bit less tedious by skipping, exploiting glitches, and bringing lots of DPS to grind down the bosses in less time.

I see videos of dungeon experts running with most of the screen obscured by their inventory or hero panel as they swap weapons, consumables and traits for the next encounter. They know where to go blindfolded and exactly what weapons/skills/traits work best for that encounter. I don't want to spend my time painfully learning this path of that dungeon so grinding it after becomes less tedious. I want to learn how to play my characters and synergise with my party to meet all encounters. I want random and being thrown into one of seven dungeons all of which need to be learnt isn't random.

IMO a large part of GW2s endgame is a fail. Dungeons are too hard for those that haven't learnt them and have to be because otherwise they would be too easy to 'speed run' for those that have.

#13 Swoopeh

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostHumfly, on 26 January 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Good fun? Matter of opinion and having to 'learn them' is most of the problem. Go into a dungeon you don't know or with others who don't know and you get your butt kicked. Learning a dungeon isn't fun. When you have learnt the dungeon they are a tedious grind for tokens and drops which you can make a bit less tedious by skipping, exploiting glitches, and bringing lots of DPS to grind down the bosses in less time.

I see videos of dungeon experts running with most of the screen obscured by their inventory or hero panel as they swap weapons, consumables and traits for the next encounter. They know where to go blindfolded and exactly what weapons/skills/traits work best for that encounter. I don't want to spend my time painfully learning this path of that dungeon so grinding it after becomes less tedious. I want to learn how to play my characters and synergise with my party to meet all encounters. I want random and being thrown into one of seven dungeons all of which need to be learnt isn't random.

IMO a large part of GW2s endgame is a fail. Dungeons are too hard for those that haven't learnt them and have to be because otherwise they would be too easy to 'speed run' for those that have.

Yes that is indeed my opinion (hence the "at least to me and a lot of my guild members" bit). I don't run pugs and I don't grind them so I'm not really interested in finding the most efficient way of exploiting them, we just go on Mumble and have a laugh. While I do agree that it can be a pain to learn some of them, the fact that you do have to learn them and there are a lot of little things you can do to improve, including optimizing the way you play your class, is what makes them fun imho. And synergising with others is also a part of this.

The thing is that people always take the path of least resistance, that's just how our brains work. The fact that they made dungeons hard has had an overall positive effect on the game because people need to put more effort in to complete the dungeons. Compare this to WoW where you can afk faceroll LFD/LFR and get epic loot, this causes the skill ceiling to be rather low so a lot of people end up not being able to cope with the simplest things, like "press the big button in the middle of your screen when you see big warning text pop up and your screen flashes". Compare this to GW2 where PUGs have had to learn everything the hard way and most players are actually quite good and respond quickly, that in itself is not a bad thing.

But you say "I want random and being thrown into one of seven dungeons all of which need to be learnt isn't random.". What would you suggest as a dungeon then? Because, unless we're talking completely randomized instances and enemies, everything is learnable. And I'm pretty sure that if they make dungeons completely random (which severely limits creativity) that would make many people rage, especially when mobs have random combinations of abilities too. Not sure if you've played Diablo 3 but an elite pack with fast/molten/ mortar/invuln was a recipe for disaster. Or molten/chain/teleport in a narrow hallway, fun times.

In closing: there will always be people min-maxxing everything and trying to grind as efficiently as possible because that's what they enjoy and that's their prerogative. That's not the game's fault. But calling the dungeons a fail because you need to learn them and they aren't faceroll from day 1 is perhaps not the best argument. If you didn't like them because the mechanics are sometimes unclear and they contain a lot of cheap 1-shot mechanics or tedious "dodge the laser" parts I could understand.

But it's not much different to WoW heroics and raids, only there you have guilds class stacking for certain encounters (though Blizzard doesn't like that and tries to avoid the need) and trying to abuse tricks as much as possible (example: on Cho'Gall where mages would deliberately get stacks of a bad debuff to get a huge damage increase and stacking disc priests to shield them while they singlehandedly burning down the boss). Also lots of trash skipping in PUGs there.

Edited by Swoopeh, 27 January 2013 - 09:50 AM.


#14 lmaonade

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

View Postactionjack, on 16 January 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

I like your observation, and fully agree.

Dungeon in GW2 feel lacking and not very fun.  Beside need to grind for that nice looking gear, there feel not much purpose/ drive/ reward to do a dungeon.

Not sure what would a magic-bullet fix to it (improve combat?  improve reward? trinity?), but need something more to make it more fun.

Without a complete class overhaul it'll be impossible to fix, right now the most efficient way of running dungeons is to have 1 Mesmer and 4 high DPS glass cannon characters to completely stomp through everything, throwing traditional senses of teamwork and coordination out the window. In order to revert it back, GW2 would have to adopt the trinity in the strictest sense, which isn't what Anet wants to do.

Edited by lmaonade, 26 January 2013 - 11:00 PM.


#15 Dark

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:01 PM

Dungeons are not fun anymore because 90% if not more of the dungeon content is too easy. In Gw1 they were much harder to finish.

#16 kendro1200

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:14 PM

I've had fun with the GW2 dungeons (even when I first went into AC in the first BWE, and even at the start of release and explorables when they could be huge wipe fests due to broken things) and I still have fun in the dungeons.  In GW2 dungeons aren't supposed to be raids, I really wish that'd sink in at some point.  In GW2 dungeons aren't supposed to be the go-to place to get gear.  Fractals has kinda ruined that a little, but by and large, dungeons are for dungeon crawling and group play.
Hopefully the new large scale guild events Anet is trying to implement will take care of the "raiding itch" that people keep trying to scratch by imposing their sets of rules onto GW2 dungeons.

#17 actionjack

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:31 AM

View Postlmaonade, on 26 January 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Without a complete class overhaul it'll be impossible to fix, right now the most efficient way of running dungeons is to have 1 Mesmer and 4 high DPS glass cannon characters to completely stomp through everything, throwing traditional senses of teamwork and coordination out the window. In order to revert it back, GW2 would have to adopt the trinity in the strictest sense, which isn't what Anet wants to do.

Than the question (or the challenge) is how to tweak the existing to make it more fun.

One way I could see if to change Mob/boss behavior/skills in such way that it encourage more tactic.
So could add more mob skill/attacks that hurt just straight damaging (like reflecting damages back to them, or go berzerk if got spike damaged), but add more weakness for other type of build.


I would also like to see a new mechanic added where need to be more on key with your abilities.  A quick draft of this idea would be having an Interrupter System.  So that a Mob would have a strong devasting attack, but can be interrupted if get enough damage from one of 3 type of attack (will just call it A,B,C here).  Each of character's skill are assigning one of those attack (but each weapon skills will cover all 3, so you are never without one).  This will make player need to keep better tab of mob, adding some twitch game play into the mix.




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