24 replies to this topic

[Briar]

Incoming crazy long post

So this topic has come up a number of times and it is becoming quite obvious that players think that dual professions should make their triumphant return in GW2. The main argument against dual professions is that it would make the game too hard to balance because it opens up too many possible skill combinations that may be broken. This system does not have any of these problems, in fact I even call it MORE engaging than the GW1 system. This is...

Advanced Professions

Q: What is it, how is it different than dual professions?

an Advanced Profession is a modifier to your current profession rather than an addition like dual professions. Essentially they unlock a line of utility skills and alter your profession mechanic and weapon skills to solidify a particular play-style unique to your current profession. Here is an example

-------------------------------------------------
Advanced Profession: Arcane Archer
Formally: Ranger/Elementalist

Play Style: You are the "Sniper" you love to use the rangers longbow to rack up kills from extreme distances while utilizing the terrain to make you untouchable. Unfortunately as a regular ranger your pet destroys this play style by the AI getting stuck on the same terrain that is protecting you... Oh why must pets be so stupid.

Profession Adjustments: The Arcane Archer has forgone the ways of nature, you no longer have a pet. Instead your profession mechanic is replaced by three skills

Fire Arrows: Max DPS Burning
Frost Arrows: Defensive Slows to keep them at arms length
Arcane Arrows: Supportive Buffing Arrows

You gain new utility skills to help to retreat and keep that desired range on your opponent
-------------------------------------------------

WAIT!
I like my pet! Its why I became a ranger in the fist place!

then how about this Advanced Profession...

-------------------------------------------------

Advanced Profession: Hunter
Formally: Ranger/Assassin (AKA Thief)

Play Style: You are a true ranger the genuine article; you and your pet are one. But still you think to yourself "I wish my pet was just a bit more useful" you may also think to yourself "Darn I wish we had a nitch like portal mesmers"

Profession Adjustments: The Hunter plays much like a regular Ranger with two exceptions.

You now have access to stealth utility's which let you to open a fight in pvp with your pet just like in pve (pet attacks break stealth) as well as do ambushes.

Your Pet gains powerful passive ability's like

Moa Inspiration: Ally's near your Moa gain one stack of might, refreshing
Blood Hound: Canines gain the ability to see through stealth, they will continue to attack if their target enters stealth and will growl if an enemy is in stealth nearby and you are out of combat

-------------------------------------------------

Q: What if I hate my new advanced profession?

You can switch it on a whim at your profession trainer, similar to gw1

Q: This seems like way too much work for the devs, don't you think

Yes it would be, but it may be possible for an expansion, and would IMO be better than just adding new classes

Q: You only provided Ranger examples what about the other professions, there is not enough creativity for every class to get multiple Advanced professions.

Watch me. Just off the top of my head.

Warrior
Samurai: Canthan themed slayer of other melee
Berserker: Protection destroying anti bunker build brute

Necromancer:
True Lich: Even larger lifeforce pool
Necrolord: Go all out minion master. A true dark lord never gets his own hands dirty

Engineer:
Alchemist: Less blast more flask
Mechknight: For those melee loving engineers

Guardian:
Paladin: Less support and more divine themed pew pew
Cleric: Better long range weapons so you can damage while you support

Elementalist:
Pure Mage: Specialize in that single element just like you wanted; oh and weapon switching
Battle Mage: Traits that don't make you feel like you should specialize in one element when everyone knows that's a bad idea.

Thief:
Assassin: Trade Steal for a stealth while not moving skill. Because ganking is more fun if done from out of nowhere
Rogue: A less fragile thief with less stealth and more powerful venom for those "I wish I could play this class without looking like a jerk" people

Mesmer:
Chaos Wizard: You like phantasms? Now they look badass and are separate from your shatters. Also they do not disappear when you kill someone
Mind Mage: Less dumb illusions more mind-bending domination magic and confusion

Hope you enjoyed reading


TLDR: Sorry I attempted to cut out the unnecessary but really, its a complex idea you will need to at least read the fist part.

Edit: I know of the one idea/thread rule and would just like to elaborate, this suggestion is for advanced professions as a mechanic. Any profession ideas are simply examples and are not very well thought out.

/discuss, If you have ideas for more Advanced Professions feel free to post them

Edited by Briar, 15 January 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Kumori Tensei]

Okay your ideas for the arcane ranger are absolutely amazing lol

[Tyrantscreed]

Hunter, Samurai, Mind Mage, Necrolord, Paladin ...um...

/sold.

[SurfMasta]

It would be great so see this implanted in the game.  This could be something to show the developers.

[ShezuTsukai]

This sounds more like D&D Prestige Classes. Unfortunately prestige classes unbalanced the game and forced all players to specialize in order to gain the next level skills and abilities to keep up.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of specializing but feel that it would be a power creep eliminating the original classes. ie The Assassin (thief specialist) would wipe the floor with a similar level pure thief.

Plus specialization is already built into the game with trait and weapon set choices. I know a ranger who attacks at increased range with huge amounts of burning arrows thanks to long bow/sword & torch and traits.

[actionjack]

What I like:
I like the various wonderful classes you have.  Some have good thematic and mechanic possibilities.  The system would work decently.  Also I like cakes.
..................

But... I do feel this system seem to be just adding few more lines of additional skill in the each proff's mix.  It would work, but do hope to see something more free-form.


An idea is to add something like Schools/Orders.  They would function like a Sub-class, but with slight mix.

Say there is a School of Flesh and Decay.  As a Warrior, Necromancer, or Assassin, you can pick it as your School.  (each school will not be open for all profession, for easier balance issue).  This school will be focus on adding more Minons and DoTing.  When pick, not only do you get some new utitlity skills, a new profession name you can display (Warrior => Executioner, Necromanser => Flesh Lord,  Assassin => Deathgiver), maybe a new Mechanic to play with (something like a Decay Meter), as well as allow you to change some main hand skills too.  (so as a warrior, you can pick to have one set of your Axe skill to be regular, and another to use the School's teach of Axe skills).

Some thoughts on it.

[ZCKS]

ShezuTsukai, on 15 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

This sounds more like D&D Prestige Classes. Unfortunately prestige classes unbalanced the game and forced all players to specialize in order to gain the next level skills and abilities to keep up.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of specializing but feel that it would be a power creep eliminating the original classes. ie The Assassin (thief specialist) would wipe the floor with a similar level pure thief.

Plus specialization is already built into the game with trait and weapon set choices. I know a ranger who attacks at increased range with huge amounts of burning arrows thanks to long bow/sword & torch and traits.

While the OP's ideas sound cool this poster is correct about why they wouldn't work.


That being said I think there is a bit more room for some specialization via traits. I say this because if you look at them at least half of the traits available to each proffesion are either complete crap or very under tuned.

They could also stand to do a few other things like

1: Create new weapon types (great axes have been hinted at if not outright confirmed, there are other weapon types they could come up with as well like above ground spears & polearms etc...)

2: Allow more classes to use more of the existing weapon types  (axes/hatchets for thieves, warhorns & axes for guardians, daggers & warhorn for mesmers etc...)

3: More utility skills, much much more.

[Briar]

ShezuTsukai, on 15 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

This sounds more like D&D Prestige Classes. Unfortunately prestige classes unbalanced the game and forced all players to specialize in order to gain the next level skills and abilities to keep up.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of specializing but feel that it would be a power creep eliminating the original classes. ie The Assassin (thief specialist) would wipe the floor with a similar level pure thief.

Plus specialization is already built into the game with trait and weapon set choices. I know a ranger who attacks at increased range with huge amounts of burning arrows thanks to long bow/sword & torch and traits.

I was envisioning this as more of a forced branching choice for an expansion post 80 content by the time you reach that level you would already have an idea of your preferred play-style.

Using your thief as an example you would hit level 80 and be presented with three options As I see it there are three play-styles with thief

• Acrobatic, sometimes bursty evasive cutthroat. This play-style can be seen in the sword/dagger and dagger/dagger deathblossom builds. Your Advanced profession of choice is the Dualist adding more evasive options and ways to deal with ranged attackers
  
• Ranged Sustained DPS. This play-style can be seen in the pistol/pistol, pistol/dagger venomshare and short bow builds. Your advanced profession is the Rogue. Your steal loses it's shadow-step and becomes a ranged attack. It only steals items that can be used at range. You gain many ways to regenerate initiative faster so you can push your power skills harder.
  
• Very bursty stealthy single target ganker. This play-style is seen in dagger/dagger heart-seeker, dagger/pistol and sword/pistol builds. You lose the ability to steal items but retain the shadow step. You gain many ways to set up ambushes for your enemys

ZCKS, on 16 January 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

While the OP's ideas sound cool this poster is correct about why they wouldn't work.

That being said I think there is a bit more room for some specialization via traits. I say this because if you look at them at least half of the traits available to each proffesion are either complete crap or very under tuned.

They could also stand to do a few other things like

1: Create new weapon types (great axes have been hinted at if not outright confirmed, there are other weapon types they could come up with as well like above ground spears & polearms etc...)

2: Allow more classes to use more of the existing weapon types  (axes/hatchets for thieves, warhorns & axes for guardians, daggers & warhorn for mesmers etc...)

3: More utility skills, much much more.

Not to put down both of your ideas, you are right much of what I am suggesting could be improved by just expanding on the already implemented trait system and adding more utility/weapon skills

but you are missing the other half of the picture -> This manipulates the class mechanic, something that cannot currently be done with traits. And yes Class mechanics are worth changing; they can be downright restrictive.

• Ranger pets can be detrimental to a ranged play-style (This was stated in the main post)
  
• Steal is a ridiculous ability for a pistol/pistol thief. Why would you want to be closer to the enemy and gain a skill that can only be used in melee
  
• Elementalist is balanced around the stance dance if you chose to specialize you are gimping yourself.
  
• Necromancer minions are balanced around the Necromancer still being strong, with this system you could have a weak necromancer and let the minions do all the damage and remain tanky
  
• Thiefs are restricted to burst because of the way initiative works, it could have initiative removed for a more sustained dps playstyle

This could even open up build ideas that cannot be obtained even with simply adding new skills to the game. How about a Mesmer clone build that does not shatter, if you remove shattering you could up the illusion limit to... I don't know five clones?

[Yski]

While the idea is neat, the reason why we only have 8 professions in the first place is to avoid having too many different combinations to balance. It's nothing compared to gw1 where there were plenty of skills that just weren't worth using, but judging by all the whining about thieves being impossible to fight against and guardians being impossible to kill the balance isn't perfect even now.

Just imagine what it would be like if we suddenly gave every profession multiple advanced professions that also need to be balanced

Briar, on 16 January 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

• Thiefs are restricted to burst because of the way initiative works, it could have initiative removed for a more sustained dps playstyle

Sorry, I know this isn't the point, but have you ever heard of pistol/dagger condition thieves? Venom share builds? Seriously, even your average burst thief can do nice aoe damage and weakness with shortbow. Saying thieves can only do burst is just not true

Edited by Yski, 16 January 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Eto_Zamamai]

This an absolutely amazing idea.  It is far more practical than adding true dual professions and adds so much of the much asked for extra customization.  You may want to flesh out the idea even more to appeal to other players who play additional classes.

[Briar]

Yski, on 16 January 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

While the idea is neat, the reason why we only have 8 professions in the first place is to avoid having too many different combinations to balance. It's nothing compared to gw1 where there were plenty of skills that just weren't worth using, but judging by all the whining about thieves being impossible to fight against and guardians being impossible to kill the balance isn't perfect even now.

Just imagine what it would be like if we suddenly gave every profession multiple advanced professions that also need to be balanced


Sorry, I know this isn't the point, but have you ever heard of pistol/dagger condition thieves? Venom share builds? Seriously, even your average burst thief can do nice aoe damage and weakness with shortbow. Saying thieves can only do burst is just not true

Sorry If I am coming across as some kind of one sighted unwavering idiot. I am listening and people are bringing up very good points for discussion.

I have to disagree with you however. It would not be adding any new combinations because these professions are not additions. Yes each of these professions would have to be balanced against each other but this is still no different than balancing the already avalible weapon sets to each other. It only adds more variety. (Anet will have to add more variety regardless or else this game is bound for boredom)

If anything it would be easier for the devs to balance.

To bring up p/d again remember offhand dagger getting nerfed to tune down thief d/d burst? It blindsided the p/d bleed build for no reason. In my system dagger offhand could have been nerfed only for assassins while leaving p/d intact for the people running bleeds

[Yski]

More variety means more combinations and more combinations means harder time trying to balance them all, doesn't it? Then again, I feel like I caught a cold earlier and my brain tends to stop functioning when I have one, so maybe I'm just not thinking properly.

As for p/d, they only lowered the damage of C&D, didn't they? That doesn't really matter for a condition build since most of their damage comes from conditions.

[Briar]

Yski, on 16 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

As for p/d, they only lowered the damage of C&D, didn't they? That doesn't really matter for a condition build since most of their damage comes from conditions.

p/d is all about hitting C&D to open into sneak attack. If every fourth attack is nerfed you are definitely taking a dps hit

[Obscure One]

So I love the idea...but by Balthazars flaming balls is that the most nightmarish game balance scenario I can imagine! Specialization in any one direction creates a superior tier of whatever particular specialization that is meaning not only will that specific class combo be the best at that one thing, other players will by default consider anything less to be "suboptimal" or just plain worthless. Hence, no matter how cool or flavorful your character may be, and no matter how much it suits your play style, you may never find a group in Dungeons or sPvP or be taken seriously in WvW because everyone else is mechanically better. This then causes that vocal minority of just plain bad players to scream for nerfs to one class and boosts to another which ultimately ends with to much of both and no one is happy.

Great idea if the game is designed and balanced for it specifically, and rigidly tested and scrutinized before even being considered as a candidate for implementation...I'm talking months if not years of razor focused, fine tuned, methodical deliberation bordering on obsessive behavior.

[Eto_Zamamai]

While I would agree with the major balancing issues in any other game franchise, Arena Net's first guild wars featured ten professions and allowed the player to select two specialization.  Now in comparison this would be a comparatively simple  feat (closer to adding and balancing new traits).  I am not expecting any thing close to this in the foreseeable future, but in a future paid expansion certainly more individualism in players (some players want more traits whiles others want full-on dual professions) will be needed.  To me this seems the best of both lines of thinking although clearly it is a monumental task that ANet would need to conquer in terms of balancing.

[Red J]

Arcane Archer you say?

I'm sold.

[ShezuTsukai]

You may think this is sounding like more choices but it would play out as very limiting. I change my build often to best support the group and being permanently ranged or melee would not do at all.

[Gremlin]

I think dual professions are fine and they would have worked in gw1 as long as there was one restriction.
A dual profession character would have a primary and secondary class as per gw1 but both professions would be fixed, no changing of secondary as in gw1
The idea is that you learn your professions and cannot unlearn them.

If further restrictions are needed you could make the skills only available if you are wearing the right armour type Light Medium Heavy.
So a Warrior Necro would have to wear light armour to use necro skills.

You could limit them further by making the level cap of 80 be split between both professions, by adding them up..
This could allow for a greater variation in characters as you could have a player character be a 40/40 warrior thief or a 60/20 warrior Elementalist and so on.

I don't see it happening but it was how I wanted gw2 to be like when I first heard of the game being developed.

[NuclearDonut]

ShezuTsukai, on 17 January 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

You may think this is sounding like more choices but it would play out as very limiting. I change my build often to best support the group and being permanently ranged or melee would not do at all.

I agree with this. I really like 90% of the idea, but being a forced ranged or forced melee class will make you extremely handicapped in group fights. GW2 combat requires lots of adaptability.

[Eto_Zamamai]

NuclearDonut, on 17 January 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

I agree with this. I really like 90% of the idea, but being a forced ranged or forced melee class will make you extremely handicapped in group fights. GW2 combat requires lots of adaptability.

I don't see this idea as restricting you to a set range, that would still be left to the individual weapon choice. What it would do perhaps is change the type of damage you do and a few utility skills would be added.  Going back to the arcane ranger example, you can still use a bow or sword but it would do elemental damage, the hunter can still use a bow but perhaps he loses traps or something.  Overall there would be no true limiting factors in the long run and switching out your weapon at any point will still give you 5 new skills.

[NuclearDonut]

Eto_Zamamai, on 17 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

I don't see this idea as restricting you to a set range, that would still be left to the individual weapon choice. What it would do perhaps is change the type of damage you do and a few utility skills would be added.  Going back to the arcane ranger example, you can still use a bow or sword but it would do elemental damage, the hunter can still use a bow but perhaps he loses traps or something.  Overall there would be no true limiting factors in the long run and switching out your weapon at any point will still give you 5 new skills.

The OP said that one of the theoretical advanced classes for the Thief would be a melee only stealth ganker. That's what I was going off of.

[ZCKS]

IDK about giving each profession 2 of its own unique advanced specs, that seems like it would be a clusterf#@% for balancing.

That being said I can see advanced utility skills & trait lines (with less options then class specific of course) being added (at some point in a paid expansion) that are more specific to what classes they pertain to.

For instance

Warriors & guardians are both soldiers, they could add utility skills & a trait line that are universal to both of them.
Rangers, Engineers & thieves are all Adventurers. They could receive the same.
The same can also be done for necromancers, elementalists & mesmers.

For instance

Warriors & guardians could both gain access to a unique shout that either profession could use or they could both gain access to a trait that effects an ability/mechanic they both make use of like blocking or use of a specific weapon they both use.

The universal utility skills could be accessed via talent points. The unique traits however would be accessed via something new.
Maybe they could allow you to learn these unique traits via challenges in different areas of the game, then limit how many of them you can have active at once based on your level.

Edited by ZCKS, 18 January 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[DocHolliday]

Honestly, I wish they'd just put in secondary professions and a truly dynamic skill system like GW1. No matter what system you use, there will always be balance issues that are never finished or perfect. Why not just make the most fun system you can, and deal with the balance after the fact?

[FoxBat]

This is more like pathfinder archetypes than prestige classes. You are trading out fundamental class features for another class feature a bit like you would a weapon set. You have to trade out one whole block for another whole block, so the balance nightmare of multiple combinations is fairly limited. It doesn't really come even close to what dual classes do, but it is a proposal to offer replacement for skills that you can't swap out like weapons or utilities for new expansion stuffs. It could also be an idea for "how do you add post-80 progression without inflating the trait system."

A major difficulty is how built in many of the class features are to various trait lines. At a minumum you'd have to change the profession bonus in the 5th trait line which always relates to class mechanic, and many of the traits therin as well that specifically reference the existing class mechanic. You could conceive of it as replacing these traits with new ones, or possibly replace the trait line entirely with a freshly named trait. Even then though, many of the other trait lines reference the profession mechanic (e.g. eles), making it difficult to just leave it there.

Probably easier would be to make the profession options less dramatic so that old traits can still function in somewhat the same way, e.g. for "pure mage" you still have attunements, but switching between them doesn't change your weapon skill bar. Instead it might trigger some built in bonuses, plus all the usual trait and glyph things. Maybe mesmers generate self-destructing short-term illusions instead of clones with controllable shatters for example.

I imagine anet will have to do something like this, but it will be quite a ways down the road. The existing classes aren't really built to be expandable this way, but as mentioned it is a method to change the otherwise unchangable part of your bar once you are level 150 or whatever.

Edited by FoxBat, 22 January 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[whodini]

ShezuTsukai, on 15 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

This sounds more like D&D Prestige Classes. Unfortunately prestige classes unbalanced the game and forced all players to specialize in order to gain the next level skills and abilities to keep up.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of specializing but feel that it would be a power creep eliminating the original classes. ie The Assassin (thief specialist) would wipe the floor with a similar level pure thief.

Plus specialization is already built into the game with trait and weapon set choices. I know a ranger who attacks at increased range with huge amounts of burning arrows thanks to long bow/sword & torch and traits.

agree fully. Plus I don't want to figure out which type of clone is attacking me realizing the clone has better abilities than the player themselves.extremely imaginative butwhy not just add more skills to create more builds.