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#1 zwei2stein

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

Daily achievements are very important in game, so current plans to fiddle with it are worrying.

1) Daily achievement provide alternative to rested xp found in other games and were kinda supposed to be that - they allow to speed up progress of time constrained player by providing boosts in beginning of game session.

2) Daily achievements also provide solid and dependable goal for first 15 to 60 minutes of gameplay.

3) They award karma jugs, which are absolutely vital in equipping player - they are the fix for "unobtainable" cultural weapons and exotic karma sets.

4) Daily is masterfully designed so that if player plays "base" game of exploration and events, it just happens. Daily is only hard to obtain if you are over focusing on certain aspect of game like spending your time farming something - which is good thing.

Worrying things about changes are:

1) Low level characters might end up not being able to do daily which in turn puts new players in disadvantage. (i.e. daily dungeon run)

2) It might end up being too time consuming (i.e. fractal run)

3) It might require dramatic or frustrating alternation of play style (i.e. gain large amount of xp without dying)

The fact that three items mentioned are past monthly achievements is not accident - i did not do wvw or fractals or dungeons as result of them. They do not fit my play style, they frustrate me and i resent them for being obstacle in equipping my characters and since their inclusion in monthly, i have in fact negative motivation to participate in those aspects of game.

Monthlies do not fit anyone's playstyle - it is impossible to obtain one by playing base "explore and hunt events" game. They should be fixed rather than dailies.

#2 jthamind

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

what plans have been discussed to change dailies? i haven't heard about that.

#3 Mr_Finesse

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

I think they're adding flexibility rather than making it harder to achieve.  They directly mentioned that there are 6 ways to achieve 4 of the achievement lines.  I don't forsee them removing any of the current daily achievement lines to do so.

#4 FoxBat

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 15 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Monthlies do not fit anyone's playstyle - it is impossible to obtain one by playing base "explore and hunt events" game. They should be fixed rather than dailies.

Monthlies are the current "zaishen quests." They direct people to check out specific aspects of the game and possibly party up for them. Given the effort required the only significant reward is some karma jugs, they aren't a version of rested XP at all. I'd grant your concern if they start throwing this specific stuff into the dailies before they get it optional (i.e. 4 out of 6), but monthlies are supposed to be different.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 January 2013 - 09:50 PM.


#5 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 15 January 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

I think they're adding flexibility rather than making it harder to achieve.  They directly mentioned that there are 6 ways to achieve 4 of the achievement lines.  I don't forsee them removing any of the current daily achievement lines to do so.

This is the problematic part:

Quote

We’ll add support so daily achievements will be different each day of the week, which will help drive players to different areas of the world and play together.


#6 Mr_Finesse

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:09 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

This is the problematic part:

He doesn't say all of the daily achievements will be different...

EDIT: Also, this
https://forum-en.gui...onverted/page/2


Quote

Joiry.2504:

Colin – got any examples of what the new variable dailies might be? Is there going to be much of a time gap between the variable versions and the subsetting (eg 4/6)? Feels like you’re going to push players into daily achievements in parts of the game they don’t necessarily like if there’s much of a time gap between the two.


In going back to that whole “let people play the way they want to play” concept:
We’re going to hold off on adding most of the daily achievements that send you to specific parts of the game until we’ve added the ability to select from a list (like 4/6.) The initial version you’ll see with rotating daily achievements won’t feature too many new achievement options, since we don’t want to do more specific type achievements without giving you the choice to pick from a list of stuff you’re more excited about.

Edited by Mr_Finesse, 15 January 2013 - 10:18 PM.


#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 15 January 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:


Thanks, that puts my mind at ease a bit.
It does make me wonder if they plan on raising the silver rewards though. You get a few silver for the completion of the daily, which, when you are forced to visit a specific location, basically covers the waypoint fee.

#8 Daesu

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

I am reserving my judgement until it gets implemented.  But this is something that, if they do this right, would be a huge improvement to the dailies.

I hope to see something similar to what we have in the daily ZaiShen quests in GW1.  Basically you are given a few choices a, b, c, d, and the choices vary each day.  These choices have varying degrees of difficulty and the more difficult tasks would have a higher reward in terms of more tokens and gold awarded.  Choice A would always be dungeon-related, choice b would always be open world-related, choice c would always be WvW related, etc. and these tasks vary with each day.  These tokens can then be exchanged for a wide variety of goods with the better goods costing more tokens, of course.

This would give more choices rather than just fractals, fractals, all the time or doing the same events over and over again everyday.  There is also more incentive to team up for the harder tasks so that everyone would reap more tokens.

Edited by Daesu, 15 January 2013 - 10:44 PM.


#9 Gerroh

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

View PostDaesu, on 15 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

I am reserving my judgement until it gets implemented.

I wish everyone would do this. It'd save everyone a lot of time and I wouldn't have to hold myself back from calling people ban-worthy names every time I see a "ascended shit is the end of the world!" thread or something similar.

View Postzwei2stein, on 15 January 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Daily achievements are very important in game, so current plans to fiddle with it are worrying.

1) Daily achievement provide alternative to rested xp found in other games and were kinda supposed to be that - they allow to speed up progress of time constrained player by providing boosts in beginning of game session.

2) Daily achievements also provide solid and dependable goal for first 15 to 60 minutes of gameplay.

3) They award karma jugs, which are absolutely vital in equipping player - they are the fix for "unobtainable" cultural weapons and exotic karma sets.

4) Daily is masterfully designed so that if player plays "base" game of exploration and events, it just happens. Daily is only hard to obtain if you are over focusing on certain aspect of game like spending your time farming something - which is good thing.

Worrying things about changes are:

1) Low level characters might end up not being able to do daily which in turn puts new players in disadvantage. (i.e. daily dungeon run)

2) It might end up being too time consuming (i.e. fractal run)

3) It might require dramatic or frustrating alternation of play style (i.e. gain large amount of xp without dying)

The fact that three items mentioned are past monthly achievements is not accident - i did not do wvw or fractals or dungeons as result of them. They do not fit my play style, they frustrate me and i resent them for being obstacle in equipping my characters and since their inclusion in monthly, i have in fact negative motivation to participate in those aspects of game.

Monthlies do not fit anyone's playstyle - it is impossible to obtain one by playing base "explore and hunt events" game. They should be fixed rather than dailies.

1) Yep. I agree.
2) Correct as well, at least for some people. They're just something I do as I play and then finish off whatever I still need before the reset.
3) Waitwut. Cultural weapons and exotic karma sets are "unobtainable" without liquid karma? Sure, they were difficult, but they weren't that difficult.
4) It encourages players to do a bit of everything. Not disagreeing here, just raising a point I'll bring up again later.

2nd set:
1) Anet said they were going to have something like there are 6 achievements, and only 4 are required to get the reward. Whether these numbers are what they'll go with is probably up in the air, but it's that sort of system. Plus, I really don't think Anet is so completely oblivious to how people are playing their game that they'd make dailies impossible for lower level characters to achieve. C'mon, man, give them some credit.
2) It's a daily. It's meant to be something that could be done daily without much effort. Where do you get the idea they'd suddenly jam something time consuming in?
3) Again, it's a daily, it's not going to pull you away from your crap, it's just something to do while you do your crap.

About the monthlies, let's go back to my #4 point in the first set. Monthlies encourage players to do a variety of things. It's a couple of things you can do a little at a time, or maybe you'll decide to 100% a different monthly achievement one weekend at a time. It puts players into parts of the game they might think they won't enjoy, and mingles players together so that the community stays fresh and avoids stagnation.
Monthlies and dailies are, of course, not supposed to be the same thing and it's obvious they were designed differently with different intents. Dailies are easier to do and you don't have to really commit to anything to do them; it's a small reward to give yourself a little pat on the back or whatever. Monthlies put you into new areas, or keep you moving through different things, experiencing a bit of everything.

#10 Gli

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

View PostGerroh, on 15 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

3) Waitwut. Cultural weapons and exotic karma sets are "unobtainable" without liquid karma? Sure, they were difficult, but they weren't that difficult.
Depends on your playstyle. I'm at over 3000 achievement points, yet I don't have enough karma on any single character to buy more than 2 Orr temple armor pieces. (Not that I want them anyway.)

#11 Gerroh

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

View PostGli, on 15 January 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Depends on your playstyle. I'm at over 3000 achievement points, yet I don't have enough karma on any single character to buy more than 2 Orr temple armor pieces. (Not that I want them anyway.)

That's because you're supposed to work for them, like you do with dungeon exotics.

#12 Jump_N_Move

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

Wait people actually want karma? I guess free money is free money still..

#13 Gli

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:04 AM

View PostGerroh, on 15 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

That's because you're supposed to work for them, like you do with dungeon exotics.
How do you suppose I got over 3,000 achievement points? Lounging in LA? It's just that I got my karma spread out over 7 characters.

#14 Gerroh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:47 AM

View PostGli, on 16 January 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

How do you suppose I got over 3,000 achievement points? Lounging in LA? It's just that I got my karma spread out over 7 characters.

I mean that you do work with the intent of getting them, as in to get dungeon exotics you'd do that dungeon, and to get karma exotics you'd do events.

#15 Bloggi

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:59 AM

Getting dailies done is least draggy when achieved through normal leveling of a toon, as I've been doing on a good number of nights now after work. Trouble of course is eventually running out of toons to level. In the past I could get some of my dailies through hooking up with in game friends and doing a dungeon run or some fractals, but in recent times the number of in game friends that are actually online is growing pretty thin. We'll see what changes the mega patch will hold.

#16 Gli

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:27 AM

View PostGerroh, on 16 January 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

I mean that you do work with the intent of getting them, as in to get dungeon exotics you'd do that dungeon, and to get karma exotics you'd do events.
I've completed 2,163 events. On 7 characters. They all have just around 100k karma. Never used a karma jug, I have 90-something of them in storage.

Doing enough events on a single character to get enough karma for full temple armor is absolutely unthinkable to me. Without the jugs that is.

If I had any inclination to get temple armor, I could fully equip 4 characters in it, using my jugs. Without the jugs, not a single one. So I'd agree with Zwei2stein that the karma jugs are pretty vital.

#17 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:47 AM

View PostGli, on 16 January 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

How do you suppose I got over 3,000 achievement points? Lounging in LA? It's just that I got my karma spread out over 7 characters.

I got my full temple set using the jugs I got from finishing my dailies...  I don't open my jugs immediately, but only when I need one.  I would be very miffed if they removed the jugs as reward...  (or they could be a one-on-one exchange for the new tokens...)

#18 Fenice_86

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:08 AM

We will see i guess... the 4/6 options choice is nice (if they leave the 4 original ones)

#19 Mastruq

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostProtoss, on 15 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Thanks, that puts my mind at ease a bit.
It does make me wonder if they plan on raising the silver rewards though. You get a few silver for the completion of the daily, which, when you are forced to visit a specific location, basically covers the waypoint fee.

While more rewards are always nice, it sounds like this isnt needed because they already up the rewards for the daily through the new reward system, and only add the far-away lands daily parts along with the choice to do something else to get your 4/6 completion.

On the other hand, I am all for incentives to get players out into the world again. I mostly enjoy playing the game as intended, i.e. roaming through a zone from crafting node to node and doing DEs as I find them. More players doing that means more fun for me, since DEs are not that entertaining solo

#20 zwei2stein

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 15 January 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

I think they're adding flexibility rather than making it harder to achieve.  They directly mentioned that there are 6 ways to achieve 4 of the achievement lines.  I don't forsee them removing any of the current daily achievement lines to do so.

That is propably right, but new (hopefully) attractive rewards usually mean rebalancing of effort - if devs think that it would be too easy to get something through dailies or that they would be too rewarding, they might want to retune them.

View PostFoxBat, on 15 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

Monthlies are the current "zaishen quests." They direct people to check out specific aspects of the game and possibly party up for them. Given the effort required the only significant reward is some karma jugs, they aren't a version of rested XP at all. I'd grant your concern if they start throwing this specific stuff into the dailies before they get it optional (i.e. 4 out of 6), but monthlies are supposed to be different.

I think the "content focus" or "content advertizement" incentives should be separate from "play game and populate the world" - which i see monthly being.

Currently, even if you do end up doing i.e. fractal monthly, you are done in two runs. Per month. As a tool to boost critical mass, they are too weak while being annoying.

View PostGerroh, on 15 January 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

3) Waitwut. Cultural weapons and exotic karma sets are "unobtainable" without liquid karma? Sure, they were difficult, but they weren't that difficult.

...

1) Anet said they were going to have something like there are 6 achievements, and only 4 are required to get the reward. Whether these numbers are what they'll go with is probably up in the air, but it's that sort of system. Plus, I really don't think Anet is so completely oblivious to how people are playing their game that they'd make dailies impossible for lower level characters to achieve. C'mon, man, give them some credit.
2) It's a daily. It's meant to be something that could be done daily without much effort. Where do you get the idea they'd suddenly jam something time consuming in?

About the monthlies, let's go back to my #4 point in the first set. Monthlies encourage players to do a variety of things. It's a couple of things you can do a little at a time, or maybe you'll decide to 100% a different monthly achievement one weekend at a time. It puts players into parts of the game they might think they won't enjoy, and mingles players together so that the community stays fresh and avoids stagnation.
Monthlies and dailies are, of course, not supposed to be the same thing and it's obvious they were designed differently with different intents. Dailies are easier to do and you don't have to really commit to anything to do them; it's a small reward to give yourself a little pat on the back or whatever. Monthlies put you into new areas, or keep you moving through different things, experiencing a bit of everything.

3) Yes, they are. Level 40 cultural weapon cost 10k karma.

That requires focused attention since level1 to obtain (they are basically 50 L39 event gold medals - ). Yes, your capped character can get them, but they are pointless for such character, basically just transmutation fodder. That was issue - they were nearly impossible to obtain when they matter.

1) Given past experiences, they can have suprising gaps, so i am not taking any chances here.
2) That purely depends how rewarding new stuff is or if they rething dailies, so yes, it could very well be balanced with long term dedicated players which want cat tonic in mind.

---

Put people out of comfort zone never works - do you really want to do dungeon run with couple people who did not want to do it in first place and who get pissed off if it takes too long because they just want it to end?

Usually such experiements end up with people who did not like something not liking it even more.

So far, monthlies ended up with me straight out giving them up. That is not good track record for encouragement of exploring different areas of game.

View PostGerroh, on 16 January 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

I mean that you do work with the intent of getting them, as in to get dungeon exotics you'd do that dungeon, and to get karma exotics you'd do events.

For me, they are "ding i am 80" items. Promissed equal footing and whatnot.

As such, extra farming to get them is very much against whole point of their existence for me.

#21 Gerroh

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 16 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

3) Yes, they are. Level 40 cultural weapon cost 10k karma.

That requires focused attention since level1 to obtain (they are basically 50 L39 event gold medals - ). Yes, your capped character can get them, but they are pointless for such character, basically just transmutation fodder. That was issue - they were nearly impossible to obtain when they matter.

I had two T3 cultural weapons before liquid karma came out, and I didn't have more only because I didn't want any others quite yet. So they're quite far from "unobtainable". I wasn't the only one with T3 weapons, either. T1 and T2 cultural weapons can be found as random loot in the world, and thus purchased on the TP. Yes, stat wise they are useless, that's because it's cultural, and cultural armor (which is far more difficult to attain with or without liquid karma for the weapons) is also of rare value and thus stat-wise useless(I'd really hope you have better than greens when you amass 120g), and is purchased only for the purposes of transmutation.

#22 zwei2stein

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:50 AM

View PostGerroh, on 16 January 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I had two T3 cultural weapons before liquid karma came out, and I didn't have more only because I didn't want any others quite yet. So they're quite far from "unobtainable". I wasn't the only one with T3 weapons, either. T1 and T2 cultural weapons can be found as random loot in the world, and thus purchased on the TP. Yes, stat wise they are useless, that's because it's cultural, and cultural armor (which is far more difficult to attain with or without liquid karma for the weapons) is also of rare value and thus stat-wise useless(I'd really hope you have better than greens when you amass 120g), and is purchased only for the purposes of transmutation.

T3 weapons are different story - i do not argue about them because they are true luxury and you do not really need to obtain them when you ding.

T1 and 2 weapons are ridiculous considering that skins can be found in the world, so you can easily buy then on TP for few copper or silver, which means that as a source skin they are pretty bad deal. And with karma costs they are bad source of stats. Which means that as whole, they are just broken.

Armors are unique and thus priced well enough.

#23 Evans

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

I assume they'll add one or 2 pvp specific bits to it.
Haven't done any of that so I don't know, but can you get your daily by doing Wv³ or SPVP?

I'm not at all worried about losing liquid karma. Considering they added several types of karma containers, it seems very off to take them out. Besides, it's very hard to turn karma into gold and it doesn't earn you much so why would one jug of karma a day be a problem?

#24 jthamind

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

sPvP already has its own set of dailies that are completely separate from the normal dailies. it's for daily captures, matches played, player kills, and top stats. it's a very easy daily and usually just takes the number of matches played to get it, and the other three come along the way. lol.




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