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Should a wipe kick your party from a Dungeon?


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#1 Thief

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:02 AM

Today I completed Twilight Arbor exp for the first time. During the Vevina part our team wiped several times due to our inexperience and lack of tactics. (We were using 2 Eles and 3 Necros, ie randomway)
Eventually we managed to prevail and, after sometime, complete the dungeon.
This made we realise that if we'd been using the GW1 method of dungeons, we wouldn't have gotten very far whatsoever.

My question is do you think inexperience at a piece of end-game content should lead to a severe punishment such as being kicked from the dungeon?


An amendment I suggest is that Areananet reintroduce a death penalty like in Guild Wars 1. Although it would look the same as the original (15-60% DP), no stat reductions would take place. Once every party member gets to 60% and the party wipes again, the party gets kicked from the dungeon.

Feel free to discuss.

#2 Khrushchev

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:08 AM

No.

Some dungeons (I'm looking at you, Path 4 Arah) can take over an hour to complete, and one mistake in something that's supposed to  be the endgame would not be a very forgiving system, and would probably cause a great deal of distress and playerbase splintering.

The death penalty from gw1 was annoying, but not an end-all, in gw2, you have to pay ~2 silver per full death 7 times until all your armor is broken, and you're probably even weaker than 60% DP in gw1.

#3 Bloggi

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:10 AM

A number of us would by now, probably have experienced certain dungeon paths that are more challenging than others. They are not 'farmable' by any stretch and it is difficult to find people for a group. People do it for the sake of completion (ie. for the title) or the challenge. I do them for the challenge, but I could definitely do without the 'severe punishment'. While I like a game to be mentally stimulating, I don't want it to give me an aneurysm.

That's assuming the aneurysm doesn't occur while waiting forever to get a group together to run the path.

#4 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:12 AM

There is already death penalty in the game (its just now called downed penalty and it wears off on its own).  Though, I would probably prefer the original GW1's DP to the armor repair system we currently have.  

As for getting kicked from dungeons for a wipe, I'm against it.  While that idea can be fun and encourage planning/strategy, it also tends to make grouping up harder (PUGs are less common and often less friendly).  In my experience, people would much rather complete a dungeon every time, even if it means a few wipes along the way.  Since the dungeon rewards in GW2 are pretty lackluster in a lot of ways, I'm not sure you'd see many people bother trying for the so-so rewards if there was also an increased chance of getting nothing at all due to a wipe/kick.

One last comment:  calling TA end game is kinda fishy in my opinion.  While many may prefer to view it as such, its not technically a place you have to be anywhere close to max level to get through. So having harsh restrictions on something that is technically lvl 50ish content seems a bit strong.

#5 kalendraf

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

Definitely not a kick.  The armor repair bill is sufficiently costly to be a significant penalty, yet still allow people to keep trying.

#6 FoxBat

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:18 AM

I wouldn't mind a little more security like keeping people from zerging bosses from waypoints, but all wipe = kick did in GW1 is make pugs and casual guilds take forever setting up optimal builds and demanding X rank in whatever. Good guilds that know what they were doing were never in danger of failing most GW1 missions/elite zones anyway, it was merely a question of how fast you could speed clear, and that's still quite relevant now in the GW2 design and doubly so with the scalable fractals.

#7 Gileas898

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:05 AM

Yes, it definitely should.

If you are not good enough to complete something, you should not be allowed to reap the rewards for it.

#8 Auenwing

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:18 AM

Why, in a game, which touts community-oriented play, where you supposedly do not need to have cookie cutter optimum builds or by-the-book group compositions would you want to discourage experimentation and exploration in the dungeons? Or penalize learning?

Particularly when there are plenty of other MMOs (subscription based) that do exactly that?

As far as discussing game mechanics from another game (such as GW1 - which IS a separate game)....... let's also talk about rolling back the clock to other older MMO game mechanics... such as death penalties that involve losing exp / level everytime a character dies. We can add in losing gear and having to retrieve it.

What's the point?

Nostalgia?

Not everyone playing GW2 has seen GW1, or EQ, or DAoC, etcetera.

Those game mechanics may seem dated, crazy, completely arbitrary.

Retro-fitting older obstacles (that were not present at release) into a current non-subscription based game is probably not a wise marketing move.

/shrug

Edited by Auenwing, 16 January 2013 - 03:22 AM.


#9 Gileas898

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:27 AM

View PostAuenwing, on 16 January 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

Why, in a game, which touts community-oriented play, where you supposedly do not need to have cookie cutter optimum builds or by-the-book group compositions would you want to discourage experimentation and exploration in the dungeons? Or penalize learning?

Particularly when there are plenty of other MMOs (subscription based) that do exactly that?

As far as discussing game mechanics from another game (such as GW1 - which IS a separate game)....... let's also talk about rolling back the clock to other older MMO game mechanics... such as death penalties that involve losing exp / level everytime a character dies. We can add in losing gear and having to retrieve it.

What's the point?

Nostalgia?

Not everyone playing GW2 has seen GW1, or EQ, or DAoC, etcetera.

Those game mechanics may seem dated, crazy, completely arbitrary.

Retro-fitting older obstacles (that were not present at release) into a current non-subscription based game is probably not a wise marketing move.

/shrug

Explorable mode dungeons were always MEANT to be done with a highly coordinated team of 5 players that could put down a lot of time and effort to completing it.

What we have today is in comparison a joke.

#10 Krazzar

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:46 AM

View PostGileas898, on 16 January 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Explorable mode dungeons were always MEANT to be done with a highly coordinated team of 5 players that could put down a lot of time and effort to completing it.

What we have today is in comparison a joke.

You're a joke. If it were a one-and-done wipe system you'd complain about that just like you complained about difficulty in the past because we all know at this point you simply complain to complain about anything and everything. Sorry, I prefer fun to grind.

Edited by Krazzar, 16 January 2013 - 04:46 AM.


#11 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:51 AM

Hell no... the GW2 community already sucks as it is. Anymore scumbags or ragers added to the majority will have me using the /ignore function.

#12 Auenwing

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:05 AM

View PostGileas898, on 16 January 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Explorable mode dungeons were always MEANT to be done with a highly coordinated team of 5 players that could put down a lot of time and effort to completing it.

What we have today is in comparison a joke.

I agree, I would like them to be hard. My guild and I enjoy hard challenges.

Our guild does them with 4, and first time through one, we rarely have a full wipe. It is more usual for us to just one-shot the first time through. HOWEVER, the 4 of us have been playing together like this for over 12 years and we've gone through some tough times together in life, so the teamwork is pretty tight.


Point of my previous post was maintaining a balance for new players coming. Now that the first wave of players have come through, it would not benefit ANet or the game to "roll up the sidewalks" and prevent anyone new from learning / enjoying the explorables.


Rather than throw obstacles at current content, advocating for harder,newer content might be more appropriate. :)

.

Edited by Auenwing, 16 January 2013 - 06:09 AM.


#13 Gileas898

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:17 AM

View PostAuenwing, on 16 January 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I agree, I would like them to be hard. My guild and I enjoy hard challenges.

Our guild does them with 4, and first time through one, we rarely have a full wipe. It is more usual for us to just one-shot the first time through. HOWEVER, the 4 of us have been playing together like this for over 12 years and we've gone through some tough times together in life, so the teamwork is pretty tight.


Point of my previous post was maintaining a balance for new players coming. Now that the first wave of players have come through, it would not benefit ANet or the game to "roll up the sidewalks" and prevent anyone new from learning / enjoying the explorables.


Rather than throw obstacles at current content, advocating for harder,newer content might be more appropriate. :)

I agree. The Story Mode of dungeons were supposed to provide a semi-easy way of learning general dungeon mechanics etc. However, they are no different from Explorable Mode, with some being even harder. It makes no sense, and the end result is that experienced players are really given no challenge within the game at all.

If they did it right, they would not HAVE to alienate new players, while still keeping some challenges for the people who are dedicated enough to overcome them. Story Mode would provide dungeons for the casuals, and the people who wished could practice for the "real deal", and then move onto those when they felt they could.

However, I must say that it also has a lot to do with poor down scaling, and all the exploits running rampant in dungeons. Arah, with the exception of P3, still takes a good chunk of time to complete, while staying somewhat challenging (but also very gimmicky).


View PostKrazzar, on 16 January 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

You're a joke. If it were a one-and-done wipe system you'd complain about that just like you complained about difficulty in the past because we all know at this point you simply complain to complain about anything and everything. Sorry, I prefer fun to grind.

Are you on a crusade or something tonight? You should really go somewhere and chill out, because the amount of personal insults directed towards me tonight is off the charts lol. If you can't discuss matters in a civil way while staying on-topic, then please refrain from posting until you can.

#14 Caffynated

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

People who think dungeons are too easy should remember that they're doing low level content on a down leveled 80 in exotics/ascended.

The dungeons are designed to be completed by characters of their actual level. Most level 80s will find at least some of the Arah explorable paths to be very challenging. Even more so before they have learned all of the boss mechanics after multiple play throughs. I doubt any group has ever beaten Giganticus Lupicus on their first attempt without someone in the party who understood his mechanics. If the dungeon reset after one wipe, a lot of content would be impossible for most people to learn/complete because there are very few players who would beat their face against a wall trying to figure out boss mechanics that take over an hour to even reach.

#15 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostThief, on 16 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

My question is do you think inexperience at a piece of end-game content should lead to a severe punishment such as being kicked from the dungeon?

No.  You're one hour in, you make a stupid mistake and your entire hour is wasted.  It was one reason I hated the missions in GW1.  Only with EotN did the missions become more bearable.

View PostGileas898, on 16 January 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

Yes, it definitely should.

If you are not good enough to complete something, you should not be allowed to reap the rewards for it.
If you're not good enough to complete something in GW2 without dieing, and have to retry several times, I doubt your reward would be high.  As your repair cost would be high as well.

#16 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

I could see it as an optional HM version of the dungeons. Where, if you wipe, you have to start over.
Forcing it into every dungeon is not a good idea though.

There are ALWAYS some situations where even the best of teams might wipe. Should that mean they should have to redo the whole dungeon? What if they are in Arah explorable and wipe just as the last boss is about to go down? Should they really have to spend another 3 hours in order to complete it?
This would turn people away from doing dungeons at all in my eyes.

#17 Arquenya

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostThief, on 16 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

My question is do you think inexperience at a piece of end-game content should lead to a severe punishment such as being kicked from the dungeon?
Yes.

Completing a dungeon would actually mean something, gve a sense of accomplishment.
And perhaps people would rethink using tactics and work together a bit more.

I really dislike the "run in and everyone does his/her own thing and if we wipe it's just takes a little more time and repair costs" mentality.

And perhaps ANet would have to rethink the silly instant death trap design, which I really hate.

Edited by Arquenya, 16 January 2013 - 11:03 AM.


#18 escada_assassin

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

The current system is imo more friendly for pugging, which ANet is probably encouraging. Now if they do whatever you guys are saying, then say buh-bye to pugging. That would only lead to more time to get a party, more time to think of a strategy, more time to wait for the exact team composition the leader wants (yeah, there still are people looking for tanks or people who will kick you if you'd be the second of your profession in the group and so on) and to more frustration while running the dungeon, which frustration already is present in the form of getting killed, WP back, repair and try again the boss. As it is right now, it's just getting a group together and run it as fast as you can so you could get your tokens, end chests (crappy none the less) and cash. If you want it to give you some sense of achievement, well...there - you just said it - to give YOU that sense on achievement. Does it give you that sense of achievement? And if not, you really think that giving you a DP for being killed would give you just that? Cause in GW1 I can honestly say that I never heard anyone saying that because they had 60% when they wiped the end boss they had a sense of achievement. So I don't know what's DP got to do with the sense of achievement. You wanna die less? Think before acting. You want the other team members to die less? Chose them wisely next time. People always make mistakes and I think noone should be punished for one mistake or two. If DP makes your day, then maybe ANet should introduce it just for you so that you'd be proud of yourself after finishing whatever dungeon. I know the moment they'd introduce it, I won't step foot in any dungeon again. Repair costs are more than enough, spending a lot of time in some dungeons (Arah for exemple) are more than enough, now should I add DP and a possible kick when getting to 60% DP after all that? Nty.

#19 Illein

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

I don't think this would work even in GW 2- as mobs have a very short leash range from their spawn and you could probably just run away with your last man standing and reset every 5 meters if you want to. In addition to that, if dungeons were much much harder I guess it'd support a lot of cheese tactics with Thief/Mesmer stealths akin to Vanish and Feign Death in World of Warcraft to revive their entire party after what would otherwise have been a wipe.

I don't know, I like how they did it in fractals tbh. It has its flaws (falling through the map, not being able to die and no reliable /stuck function to get unstuck i.e.) but it's okay.

#20 Gilles VI

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostCaffynated, on 16 January 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

People who think dungeons are too easy should remember that they're doing low level content on a down leveled 80 in exotics/ascended.


Thing is, explorable dungeons were meant to be the elite/prestiguous content.
When they talked about dungeon gear, alot of people were dreaming about nail hard content, and if you saw someone with a dungeon weapon/gear you would know he's a very good player.
Atleast I had dreams about dungeons as hard or harder than UW/FoW/DoA in GW1, where a wipe = reset from dungeon, with hard mechanics, lots of teamwork necessary,...

But what we have now is just a joke, I find running through Orr solo harder than most dungeons.
Dungeon gear is worth nothing!
Hell dungeon gear is my way of gearing up all my alts lol.

There is something wrong when I have so much dungeon tokens I just waste them to buy gear for my lvl10 alt, which I actually have no desire to level up too.
Or there is something wrong when people waste dungeon tokens to buy items to salvage them for crafting materials..

So far there is only 1 hard dungeon in the game, which is Arah p4. (excluding high level fractals)
This path required my team to have some coordination about what professions to bring, about tactics, about coordination,...

All others are a joke, I use AC to speedlevel my alts lol, on lvl35 I buy t1 cultural armor for my alt and I start doing AC, that's how easy the "hardest content" in the game is.

Edited by Gilles VI, 16 January 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#21 Eon Lilu

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

They made the game very casual and very easy to bring more players into the game. You can see from alpha stages to beta to launch how they dumbed down the game and made it too easy, hopefully it's time to raise the bar more with these changes coming, make the game more challenging, but I doubt Anet will take a risk like that and have loads of people complaining it's too hard but then again there all about grind at the moment and nerfing ways to make gold quickly so making dungeons alot harder might just happen.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 16 January 2013 - 12:00 PM.


#22 Desild

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

All hail the Paragons of Guild Wars 2, clamouring to a fringe of the player base and speaking for us all. Sure you would all like the game to be even harder. Bet Arah is a snoozefest for you! Funny how the people that want harder content are the first ones to EXPLOIT AND LOOPHOLE it. Yeah, you heard me!

If you happen to convice ArenaNet to make things harder, try to convince them to keep to what they promised: One piece per dungeon run.

Wouldn't mind Arah and company being harder if it meant I didn't had to run the same path 30 times for a full set...

Edited by Desild, 16 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#23 Arquenya

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostGileas898, on 16 January 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

Explorable mode dungeons were always MEANT to be done with a highly coordinated team of 5 players that could put down a lot of time and effort to completing it.

What we have today is in comparison a joke.
Fully agreed. Only Arah has some elite status.

View PostCaffynated, on 16 January 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

People who think dungeons are too easy should remember that they're doing low level content on a down leveled 80 in exotics/ascended.
CoF is a lvl78 dungeon. Which is easier (except CoF3, which is just horribly designed) than all previous level dungeons.

View Postkalendraf, on 16 January 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

Definitely not a kick.  The armor repair bill is sufficiently costly to be a significant penalty, yet still allow people to keep trying.
Well 1 or 2 repairs, 3 silver? And you get at least like 50-70 silver for completing the dungeon? Even Wp travel is more expensive!

#24 Noob On Steroid

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostGileas898, on 16 January 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

Yes, it definitely should.

If you are not good enough to complete something, you should not be allowed to reap the rewards for it.

Yet people only reap rewards when they actually complete the dungeon, hence they're good enough by your logic, no?
Getting wiped by a surprise, or an unknown dungeon situation, should not get punished severely. After all, you're in explorable mode. You're meant to explore the dungeon, and find a way to get to the end of it. If that kills you a few times, you get your armor damaged. That should be enough "punishment" (since it somewhat lessens the total net gain you get from completing the dungeon).

#25 Airwolf

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

No, not an option. At best to rig the end reward to scale down with each wipe together with a better reward system.

#26 JACK the Somnolent

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:44 PM

No. (adding extra characters so I can post my one word response.)

View PostAirwolf, on 16 January 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

No, not an option. At best to rig the end reward to scale down with each wipe together with a better reward system.

The problem with this idea is that after one wipe you might as well be kicked out of the dungeon because people will be leaving as they will not get the "best" loot they can from chests. Interesting idea though.

#27 Tregarde

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostThief, on 16 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

My question is do you think inexperience at a piece of end-game content should lead to a severe punishment such as being kicked from the dungeon?

No, definately not. I play games to have fun, not to be "punished." Nothing good will come from making something like a party wipe more frustrating than it already is.

If your party is constantly being wiped you have 2 choices: leave, or try to learn from it.

And "We were using 2 Eles and 3 Necros" is irrelevant. "inexperience and lack of tactics" is what caused your party to wipe. Hopefully you used the experience to learn, and when you go back you'll do better.

#28 Falfyrel

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

Having the dungeon kick you after a wipe would be a recipe for disaster.

Imagine how many angry dungeoneers would explode at players in the group for "making" them fail the dungeon and miss out on the rewards. If this were to be implemented I would probably be terrified of ever getting a PUG for a dungeon in fear of the resident jackass trying to assault the player he felt was responsible. The current system's effectiveness is debatable but I far prefer it over what this would turn the community into - especially since it's very likely that vindictive PUG members may try to blow your progress by running across the map and trying to aggro everything to see you rage.

(In addition, due to the resurrect system allowing anyone to port back to a waypoint for an instant rez, this would  be very hard to implement - if all 5 members died but one of them died earlier and rezzed before the others went down, would it still count as a wipe?)

Edited by Falfyrel, 22 January 2013 - 05:52 PM.


#29 Airwolf

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:10 PM

View PostFalfyrel, on 22 January 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

(In addition, due to the resurrect system allowing anyone to port back to a waypoint for an instant rez, this would  be very hard to implement - if all 5 members died but one of them died earlier and rezzed before the others went down, would it still count as a wipe?)

At this point the only place you can really wipe at this moment is fractals. where you have to stay put untill you are back up, or all part members are dead. the "wipe" in a normal dungeon is only present when a boss resets after all party members are either dead or bussy running back to the boss after dieing.

Edited by Airwolf, 22 January 2013 - 11:18 PM.





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