176 replies to this topic

[dazzyy]

Finally,we made it

Guardians:Shu D Jhin,The Last Banana,Pineapple Club
Warrior:N O
Mesmer:Ascarlon

79>80
 gw0371.jpg   132.09K   706 downloads

80>81
 gw04111.jpg   125.38K   762 downloads

lvl 80 Shaman

Edited by dazzyy, 21 January 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Fenice_86]

O_O

GZZZ

[Eon Lilu]

15 fractals relics for lvl 80? Yeah Anet that's just bullshit....

[Lordkrall]

Eon Lilu, on 16 January 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

15 fractals relics for lvl 80? Yeah Anet that's just bullshit....

15 relics per Fractal. That means 45 relics for a set. Which is quite many.

[madmaxII]

Good job, that's really impressive.

However, mostly guardians, a mesmer and a warrior. Why am I not surprised?

[Eon Lilu]

Lordkrall, on 16 January 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

15 relics per Fractal. That means 45 relics for a set. Which is quite many.

It really is not alot....15 relics per fractal at lvl 80? Maybe at lvl 40, would of thought 30 fractal relics for getting to lvl 80 is more than fair enough. I swear Lordkrall are you sure you don't work for Anet's propaganda office? lol You jump on every single post that is negative about Anet lol

Edited by Eon Lilu, 16 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Gilles VI]

Eon Lilu, on 16 January 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

It really is not alot....15 relics per fractal at lvl 80? Maybe at lvl 40, would of thought 30 fractal relics for getting to lvl 80 is more than fair enough. I swear Lordkrall are you sure you don't work for Anet's propaganda office? lol You jump on every single post that is negative about Anet lol

You are just very negative..
At lvl1 people get 15 relics for an entire run, now they get 15 for a single fractal.
And don't forget when more ascended items come, it will be easier to get to those levels (for most players anyway).

Edited by Gilles VI, 16 January 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Eon Lilu]

Gilles VI, on 16 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You are just very negative..
At lvl1 people get 15 relics for an entire run, now they get 15 for a single fractal.
And don't forget when more ascended items come, it will be easier to get to those levels (for most players anyway).

What you call negativity is just me going by past experience with how Anet implement things and how they changed things in the past and present, just calling it as i see it. Personally I disagree and think 15 relics for one lvl 80 fractal is very low reward for the time and effort. But that's just my opinion, good thing we can have those .

Edited by Eon Lilu, 16 January 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Shiren]

This party composition is why I hate increasing the difficulties of dungeons the levels of this video. It pushes out creativity and diverse builds and play styles and punishes people for playing certain builds or classes. Sure not every build is going to be (or should be) viable, but I'm already getting kicked from several groups on my ranger. I see too many groups looking for guardians, warriors or mesmers and shunning every other class.

To a certain point, ArenaNet isn't making the dungeon harder, they are just limiting the number of viable choices you have to complete it. The end result is a PvE endgame meta where certain classes are almost completely shunned and certain builds, which should be viable, are never run. Look at how this kind of game design almost completely removed rangers from GW1 end game and you can see how it ended. I really hope this isn't where GW2 is going.

[chullster]

looks the same as any other level of the shaman boss, just different numbers.

Is there a reason to play at such a high level? ie most drops are now rares and exotics?

[Fenice_86]

Shiren, on 16 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

This party composition is why I hate increasing the difficulties of dungeons the levels of this video. It pushes out creativity and diverse builds and play styles and punishes people for playing certain builds or classes. Sure not every build is going to be (or should be) viable, but I'm already getting kicked from several groups on my ranger. I see too many groups looking for guardians, warriors or mesmers and shunning every other class.

To a certain point, ArenaNet isn't making the dungeon harder, they are just limiting the number of viable choices you have to complete it. The end result is a PvE endgame meta where certain classes are almost completely shunned and certain builds, which should be viable, are never run. Look at how this kind of game design almost completely removed rangers from GW1 end game and you can see how it ended. I really hope this isn't where GW2 is going.

Why not? It will man...
"Harder" content requires Build & Team optimization, the further you go, the more you'll need it

In the end builds and classes will be "removed" from the optimal team+build composition lvl by lvl... it's normal, it's always been like this in every game, in every situation of life, the more you go in depth the more you need specific feats, you cant change this.

The only thing you can do it's improve other classes but, than again, there will be always ONE better than OTHERS and EVERYONE will go for it

[Balthor]

It's a fine line. Dungeons are designed to be the hardest (PvE) content available. But balance is inherently impossible with different classes. While they could make some changes for balance (and fix the bugs), certain classes would still be better for dungeons. If they made the dungeons easily completable with any party comp, they would be lowering the difficulty of the dungeon. In any case, the new ascended gear will make the dungeons easier. The only thing you can really do is find a good guild.

[Gilles VI]

Shiren, on 16 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

This party composition is why I hate increasing the difficulties of dungeons the levels of this video. It pushes out creativity and diverse builds and play styles and punishes people for playing certain builds or classes. Sure not every build is going to be (or should be) viable, but I'm already getting kicked from several groups on my ranger. I see too many groups looking for guardians, warriors or mesmers and shunning every other class.

You forget those levels are only apparent in fractals, and that fractals are a separate kind of dungeons, and there are also no real advantages to be get by doing those very high level fractals.
What does it bother you if people get to lvl1000 with 5 guardians, you can still do your lvl20 fractals or any other dungeon with any team setup you wish.

chullster, on 16 January 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

looks the same as any other level of the shaman boss, just different numbers.

Is there a reason to play at such a high level? ie most drops are now rares and exotics?

Nop, only the prestige of being able to do it, as far as I know you can get any possible drop at lvl20 or higher (rares, exotics, globs, vials, shards, and fractal items, and infused rings).
There is really no advantage these people have, and yet people whine about it.

[Bonana]

I do many runs with my mesmer. Personally, I don't really care who I'm partied with. As long as you know what you're doing and know how to play your class the right way.

Thieves and rangers actually do provide great support if used properly. Heck, even rangers stack endless amounts of vulnerability. You cannot go wrong with that. An entire group and I all dead stood by and watched a ranger solo the mossman one time, from about 25% hp.

[Thaddeuz]

Lordkrall, on 16 January 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

15 relics per Fractal. That means 45 relics for a set. Which is quite many.

Acturally its 15 for each of the 3 fractal + 60 relics for Jade Maw and 60 relics for the daily (if level 80 was your only Jade Maw of the day).

So in total you got 165 relics for your level 80 run.

[Lordkrall]

Thaddeuz, on 16 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Acturally its 15 for each of the 3 fractal + 60 relics for Jade Maw and 60 relics for the daily (if level 80 was your only Jade Maw of the day).

So in total you got 165 relics for your level 80 run.

Only with the bonus, and not all of the runs are bonus runs. Therefore I did not count it

[Thaddeuz]

Lordkrall, on 16 January 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Only with the bonus, and not all of the runs are bonus runs. Therefore I did not count it

The bonus is there at each even numbers. So your sure to get the bonus at level 80.
With daily : 165
Without daily : 105

[Elysen]

The impressive bit isn't level 80. It's level 80 with those keybindings.

Great performance.

[Shiren]

Fenice_86, on 16 January 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Why not? It will man...
"Harder" content requires Build & Team optimization, the further you go, the more you'll need it

In the end builds and classes will be "removed" from the optimal team+build composition lvl by lvl... it's normal, it's always been like this in every game, in every situation of life, the more you go in depth the more you need specific feats, you cant change this.

The only thing you can do it's improve other classes but, than again, there will be always ONE better than OTHERS and EVERYONE will go for it

You can keep the challenge lower than these niche class specific challenges so that the advantage gained from giving the entire party a free block (aegis), or reflecting all projectiles with a utility skill (Feedback), or portalling the entire party across areas or through obstacles (portal) is minimal compared to a strength of another class.

This is something Blizzard does a lot better than ArenaNet. Sure there are classes that have strengths and things others can't do, but at the end game people weren't excluding other classes to the extent we saw in GW1 or are beginning to see in GW2.

Creating challenges which are mechanic specicif to certain classes is merely an illusion, it's not actually harder content, it just content only certain mechanics accessible to certain classes can complete. Other classes might fight it harder (or impossible) but the chosen few that can do it aren't being challenged more, they are just the only ones given the tools to perform the roles the new "challenge" requires.

Look at AC. There are multiple builds you can take into that dungeon and succeed with is pretty high. Some will be very fast and finish with relative ease, others will take a very long time and have a great deal of trouble completing the content. A player (or party) who uses a worse build with less of the optimum tools will have to play with a greater level of skill to complete the content thant a player (or party) that uses the optimum class balance and builds to complete it. The party which has the fast finish time with an easier build is the equivalent of racing on a motorcycle, whereas the party with the slow finish time with the less optimum build is the equivalent of racing on a push bike. The concept I want to get across here is that optimising builds and party composition is not increasing the skill cap required to complete nor is it creating more of a challenge, it's just pushing out viable options and, with the current design of GW2, classes. When the end game becomes this, that's going to leave a lot of people in the dark. We are all going to have to start roll certain classes because no-one else can do what they can do and only what they can do is wanted. This is why you only saw assassins (the most fragile melee class in the game) as tanks in GW1 and never saw warriors. Assassin tanks also did about 1/10th the effort and work of a "real" thank (like a warrior) because it was a gimmick that made them easily invulnerable and able to perform the roll they performed. For players who pug (or want to keep up with the economy - which is competing with other players) and want their time to be worth the same as another players time, it's not going to be an option to play any class that is not currently favoured by the meta. Any design which pushes content to become more "difficult" usually makes content less viable for play styles and more homoginised in what is run. GW1 end game PvE boils down to a handful of of builds used by every class. The game in HM is actually easier than most people's experiences of NM because of this hyper niche focus on party and build compesition, but it's where the end game and rewards are at so it's what everyone has to play.

What they end up doing when they make stuff "harder" like this is they end up creating content which rewards build crafting more than being good at your class. You could be the best great sword ranger in the game, it wouldn't matter because you don't have party wide aegis or wall of reflection. I like that classes are different but I don't like when content design favours abilities of certain classes over others. One of the strengths of GW2 was that all classes could play different roles in the group, what we are seeing with FotM difficult design (and I believe this is indicative of the direction GW2 is going in) is that the challenge is pushing out classes which fills less optimal roles, undoing all the work they did to make other classes and builds perform those roles and brings us back to the classic homogenised "trinity mentality".

I know I've said (or at least implied) that optimising your party compesition and builds means completing this content with a set up like doesn't seem to require any increase in skill and I don't believe that. I probably couldn't do (even with the same build and class as these people) the stuff these people can do, at least not if I was in that group today. Although that video doesn't seem to showcase anything that amazing (that I could see - this boss fight probably isn't where most of the challenge lies), I'm sure it was a lot of work and very challenging to get as far as they have done, regardless of the builds and classes they used to get there (although the inventory of that mesmer is another issue with current dungeon design - stealth kits, portal guns and whatever that bomb is - content was balanced without assuming access to those items and rightfully so, those items were balanced without consideration of dungeons, something is probably going to change - and one of the devs made a comment on those items which sounds like it might happen).

Getting as high as they did in FotM is certainly a challenge, well done. As much as I don't wish to hijack the thread I think it's on topic to discuss the challenge of FotM (and GW2 dungeon design in general) and what that means for the meta and general players experience.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Shiren, on 16 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

This party composition is why I hate increasing the difficulties of dungeons the levels of this video. It pushes out creativity and diverse builds and play styles and punishes people for playing certain builds or classes. Sure not every build is going to be (or should be) viable, but I'm already getting kicked from several groups on my ranger. I see too many groups looking for guardians, warriors or mesmers and shunning every other class.

To a certain point, ArenaNet isn't making the dungeon harder, they are just limiting the number of viable choices you have to complete it. The end result is a PvE endgame meta where certain classes are almost completely shunned and certain builds, which should be viable, are never run. Look at how this kind of game design almost completely removed rangers from GW1 end game and you can see how it ended. I really hope this isn't where GW2 is going.

Stop using bad classes and you won't have this problem.  There's going to be tiers for everything, either play top tier or learn to deal with it.  Complaining about "people won't carry my crappy character through hard content" isn't particularly productive nor is the fix (making the content easier) particularly desirable.

[Just Horus]

Am I in some kind of twilight zone? Are there really people berating someone for asking for greater balance between classes?

I could understand a counter-argument that most/all classes are viable (I honestly don't know if this is the case as I haven't reached this high in FotM), but arguing that such great class imbalance is ok and to be expected?

...I...uh...wow...

Oh and congrats to the OP for making it this far. Was that a pug or a guild/friends/etc. group?

Edited by Horus Moonlight, 17 January 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[Stigma]

OMFG.... so it goes pass 81... O_O

Congrats! What server are you on?

chullster, on 16 January 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

looks the same as any other level of the shaman boss, just different numbers.

Is there a reason to play at such a high level?

I don't know even know what to say to this comment..

Edited by Stigma, 17 January 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[Fenice_86]

Shiren, on 17 January 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

-snip-

omg at your Wall_of_Text man, i've only 1/3 of it, i'll tell you what i think, Anet isn't Blizzard, things arent going to change, that's it

[chullster]

Gilles VI, on 16 January 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Nop, only the prestige of being able to do it, as far as I know you can get any possible drop at lvl20 or higher (rares, exotics, globs, vials, shards, and fractal items, and infused rings).
There is really no advantage these people have, and yet people whine about it.

Sorry I should have been more clear, I meant are the rares/exotics dropping noticeably more often?, so more quantity rather than actually better quality drops.

Stigma, on 17 January 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

I don't know even know what to say to this comment..

Did I say something outrageous? Apart from the damage numbers, there doesn't seem to be anything different, hence why I asked if you get more rares etc dropping.

Epeen is not a good enough reason to grind on the treadmill, so why go over level 30 at all?

I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything others knew about and that I didn't.

[Gilles VI]

chullster, on 17 January 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Sorry I should have been more clear, I meant are the rares/exotics dropping noticeably more often?, so more quantity rather than actually better quality drops.

As far as I know, no.
And in my experience, I really don't notice a difference between lvl1 drops and lvl10 and lvl20.

[Atamaz]

In my opinion if the game stay as it is now we probably will have a new trinity, not tank-heal-dps but warrior-guardian-mesmer because do things other profession can do but do it better and with more tool to survive.
I'd like to say it's only an end game problem but, even in dungeon, if you're looking for a speed run that 3 professions are the one you're looking for.

[Lordkrall]

Atamaz, on 17 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

In my opinion if the game stay as it is now we probably will have a new trinity, not tank-heal-dps but warrior-guardian-mesmer because do things other profession can do but do it better and with more tool to survive.
I'd like to say it's only an end game problem but, even in dungeon, if you're looking for a speed run that 3 professions are the one you're looking for.

That would however only happen if the players allow it to happen.
I for one would simply not join groups like that, even if I play a Mesmer.

[raspberry jam]

Gilles VI, on 16 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

At lvl1 people get 15 relics for an entire run, now they get 15 for a single fractal.

So basically the entire dungeon is a stupid gated gear grind. The gating is just much deeper than we first thought.

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 17 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

So basically the entire dungeon is a stupid gated gear grind. The gating is just much deeper than we first thought.

How exactly is it gating if every fractal can be seen on lvl1?
That's like saying Hard Mode in GW1 was gating because it had better chests than normal mode.

[raspberry jam]

Gilles VI, on 17 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

How exactly is it gating if every fractal can be seen on lvl1?
That's like saying Hard Mode in GW1 was gating because it had better chests than normal mode.

Because you play fractals for the content for five minutes before you realize that it's boring, and then you play fractals for the rewards. The rewards is the real content and you are gated from accessing it.

GW1 HM was gated because you had to complete the story before accessing it. That is correct.