176 replies to this topic

[Lordkrall]

Protoss, on 22 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

This is what this thread should have been about.

Peoples inability to use their skills?

[raspberry jam]

CepaCepa, on 22 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

The last paragraph in my last post was simply saying that matters of the mind, which "joy" certainly is, is too complex to be described by your explanation. In many situations you assume that "there can be only one reason for a particular conclusion" especially when these reasons are not of the same form, or not at the same level, with the conclusion itself. For example, "there is one and only one reason why someone could've enjoyed something". When I said "you can't treat the system as a linear system", I am not implying that nonlinear systems are not predictable --- Anything can be predictable given enough information. Everything is predictable if you're omniscient. So that's not worth arguing over, but rather, I'm saying that prediction of nonlinear systems based on linear methods do not give meaningful results.

Regarding challenge, I'd like to say that arm wrestling and learning Chinese are in fact not that different, at least in the sense that I was trying to portray. No matter where the source, enjoyment is only of the mind, your muscle fibre certainly don't "enjoy" being stretched in an arm wrestle match. Whether if you can do something or not, whether if you've "achieved your goal", whether if you realize that you have conscious control in at least some aspect of this process, these are all "mental states". Hence I still maintain that the cases I've listed are relevant to our discussion at hand, in addition adding in those "mental challenges" is fine too --- Let's say "learning Chinese", why don't gamers all just go and learn Chinese then if a "challenge" is the only thing that they care for in gaming? My point still stands that having a "challenge" is only a part of the reason for the enjoyment of a game.

You seem to take it that "immersion" necessarily means adopting completely different concepts and/or standards, but I've mentioned that it is definitely not the case. You may or may not have different beliefs in the game, and there are definitely going to be standards that you bring into the game yourself. Being just and nice outside of the game does not mean I necessarily need to be unjust and cruel inside the game, enjoying jazz music doesn't mean I can't enjoy jazz music in the game too. What I meant by "enjoying myself as an immersed player" is something like: confirmation of my personal belief, such as fairness and effort/reward, as a character in game. I enjoy seeing that principal, or belief, being confirmed in real life. I also enjoy seeing that belief being confirmed when I am immersed in a game through the values that the game world have provided to me. Immersion is necessary here because like you said, if I'm not immersed, I was simply being given digital information which was designed to be given to me upon pressing certain buttons at certain times, in other words the effort and reward wouldn't be at the same level.

Ultimately, people expect things, and when these expectations are not met, they will be upset to different degrees. What do you expect from dedicating yourself to something? Reward. Indeed, if by dedication you mean spending hours pressing buttons, then your reward IS fun itself. But since you're immersed for that whole duration, your dedication in game should be fulfilled by reward under the same assumptions, and this applies to all levels of immersion from there on. You seem to suggest that "playing the game" and "dedicating to something" cannot happen together, and hence you cannot be expecting both "out of the game fun" as well as "in game reward" at the same time. But countless number of different expectations can arrive from the simple concept of "playing the game", because this task itself involves so many different factors at so many different levels.

Lastly, I am confused to why we're arguing about the "feasibility" of something that is already existing. That people are having fun playing the game and yet still wanting reward. Are you suggesting those wanting reward are NOT having fun playing the game? Because many of them are saying they ARE, and I think they know themselves better. It seems to me that you have approached the problem in reverse order --- I mean, there's no argument about it: people have fun playing the game, of course! And those same people still want reward in game, that's true too! So there's no "sense making" here --- That is simply the fact. Those two CAN happen at the same time. Our problem should be trying to figure out "why is that the case and what rules am I not considering to not be able to understand that fact" instead of declaring it "none sense". Or perhaps we're talking about a "should" and "should not" problem, where you're suggesting that people SHOULD not care about reward if they're having fun playing the game already? But I really don't think there's a "should" or "should not" in this case. I mean, it's like saying "you should like hockey because that makes sense to me".

Nuclear decay isn't predictable even if you are omniscient. Unless omniscience includes prescience. Which it might. But ok, I see what you mean. Your point is beside the point, though...

Why don't all games go learn Chinese? Because they don't want to expend their time on such things. I attempted to explain something to you, which apparently was completely lost on you. But I will not be daunted... It's a challenge. So I explain again.

The difference between real-world challenges and video game challenges is that the latter challenge is designed. It is a limited thing that says "beat this". Learning Chinese is a vast undertaking that most people who speak Chinese (Mandarin) natively haven't fully mastered yet. Playing FotM at level 80 is much easier. And even if not, then it takes much less of your time to subject yourself to the challenge! Thus making the entire undertaking much less tedious. On the other hand, a well-designed game always keeps the player (or allows the player to keep himself) on the edge of his abilities. This combination (which only appears in designed challenges) of small tedium and limit-of-ability play is what makes video game so attractive.

The human brain (as are most higher animals' brains) is designed to reward itself when it beats a challenge. The focused application of brainpower during a short time is particular to designed challenges, but also to natural ones - however, as for challenges such as high jumping (which also has the brief focus element), that involves a great deal of tedium during the preparation phase, as you must be physically fit to jump high enough to have something to be proud of. Video games in particular, especially good ones, forego most of the competence buildup phase. Or rather, they might involve such a phase, but they also will feed you challenges along the way - because they are designed to entertain you. The attraction is in constant validation, at least as long as you beat the challenges.

Something must be said here. Immersion is not part of any of this in any way whatsoever. Tetris is one of the best games in the world ever throughout history, but when you play it, you are not really immersed into your role as a bricklayer with a bunch of ill fitting bricks that you can't even choose yourself. It's all for the challenge.
Except for when that spaceship takes off, whoaaaa...

So where do we come to immersion? Without immersion, there's no hyperreality. Unlike the very real validatory immediate reward of beating a challenge, in-game rewards (such as in-game money or gear or emote etc.) are permanent (or semi-permanent) parts of the hyperreality. In the game, the in-game money is real money, the gear you get is a really burning real sword or whatever. Is playing for those things bad? Yes and no, depending on how the game works... It's not intrinsically bad (unfun). "Hyperreal rewards" produce the real reward (fun) when you see your awesome character decked out in the coolest gear in the game. However, if the rewards make subsequent challenges easier, then you get a situation where the player proceeds towards easier challenges while simultaneously learning to beat them easier... That does not aid in keeping the player on his edge, as I said above. It is bad design! So the fix used here is to crank up the challenge (e.g. higher FotM level, stronger reskin of an earlier enemy, and so on). That is why cosmetic rewards indicate superior design.
That is just an aside though.

Back on the subject. Yes, people expect a reward when they dedicate themselves to something. But if they were playing for the challenge, then the validatory internal reward of knowing that they have beaten the challenge would be enough. There is no reason to give a premium reward for beating premium difficulty, because the players that voluntarily dedicate themselves to beating premium difficulty will, if they do it for the challenge, automatically get the premium real reward (fun) by feeling that they are better human beings (or at least better players) than the plebs that play the normal difficulty.

In the hyperreality, players do not play different cont-- I mean, adventurers do not enter different dungeons. They do the same Fractals as everyone else (or rather, maybe different, since it's random, but you know what I mean), and should therefore, in all fairness, get the same rewards.

You seem to be confused. Why would playing something for a reward necessarily mean that you don't think that the game is fun?

[Ninja Battle Lion]

raspberry jam, on 22 January 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Back on the subject. Yes, people expect a reward when they dedicate themselves to something. But if they were playing for the challenge, then the validatory internal reward of knowing that they have beaten the challenge would be enough. There is no reason to give a premium reward for beating premium difficulty, because the players that voluntarily dedicate themselves to beating premium difficulty will, if they do it for the challenge, automatically get the premium real reward (fun) by feeling that they are better human beings (or at least better players) than the plebs that play the normal difficulty.

For some people, (the chance of) reward = fun. You might have a strong opinion on that attitude, but denying its existence is just naive.

[CepaCepa]

raspberry jam, on 22 January 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

You seem to be confused. Why would playing something for a reward necessarily mean that you don't think that the game is fun?

This, is what I tried to convey through those walls of text. If we're agreeing that one can have fun in a game WHILE expecting a chest at the end, that this does make sense, then I'm quite happy.

I understand your differentiating of different activities --- That some of them are designed for particular purposes, that some of them are physical while others are mental, that the level of challenge is different --- Yes of course, but what I said in my last post is: I do not think those differences are sufficient to justify a notion that a player is "solely playing for the challenge". "Playing a game instead of learning Chinese because it takes much less time" IS an additional factor in the decision making, for example, and that factor has nothing to do with challenge. If we need to spend so much time narrowing down the definition of challenge, and even then this "playing for the challenge" scenario is situational and requires layers and layers of decoration, then why don't we forgo this notion all together? Isn't it much more tolerant and therefore in this case, accurate, to say "challenge is OFTEN involved in making a game fun"? Neither is it ALWAYS a very important factor, nor is it ever the sole and only factor influencing people's decisions.

I was using immersion instead of hyper-reality because unlike hyper-reality, immersion DOES apply to playing tetris. Or any activity during which you can potentially "temporarily forget yourself", so to speak. Sports provide immersion, in fact most games that I can think of right now provides possibility of immersion --- perhaps that is a definition for "game" itself. Or work, you can be "immersed in your work". It's a state of mind that showcases concentration and a temporary shift in beliefs. But enough with explaining terms and all, the point is that in-game reward is necessary for validation of in-game beliefs, which is not to say that in-game beliefs need to be stated somewhere in lore, but rather they include ANY beliefs that I as a person experiences as I am immersed into the game. Like I said before, the point of adding in immersion is not to say "you're different in game and you belief different things hence why you'd be happy", but rather without immersion those "reward", or your "effort", don't make sense.

In conclusion, I hope we've agreed that 1. challenge brings satisfaction that does not need to be indicated by in-game rewards. 2. A player plays a game for not only challenge, but many many more things, some of which demands in-game rewards to provide satisfaction to players. And 3. Hence, it is perfectly fine for a fractal player at high levels to expect rewards.

I myself have 3 characters climbing up fractals, 2 of them are at 40+ and 1 of them is approaching 60, and I don't loot. It's a bad habbit but I don't loot, not in dungeons and not in fractals, because I feel that slows me down. And initially I forget to click the chest and that happened for almost a month after fractal is introduced. My engi went into lvl 40 with 10 AR, yet no one ever notices (except for Jade Maw, but that's fine because we're so close to the chest anyways so people won't care) because I rarely, rarely, rarely get hit by agony, so I've never thought ascended gears were necessary at all. But even then, even though I don't care for the loots, I KNOW that I'm not just playing for "a challenge". I'm also playing for player interactions, playing to get fractal weapon skins (hence, ego), etc etc. Ultimately, even though I sometimes don't even open up that splendid chest, having one there makes a difference to me. And that's just me, I'm sure other people get a lot more joy out of opening chests, and why not? That doesn't go against anything at all is what I'm saying.

[raspberry jam]

Ninja Battle Lion, on 22 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

For some people, (the chance of) reward = fun. You might have a strong opinion on that attitude, but denying its existence is just naive.

Haha. But if the reward, or the chance of it, is what they derive fun from... well then they should not claim to be doing it for the "challenge". I'm not even saying that playing for a reward is a bad thing, or that people are bad for doing it... I'm not saying that playing for the challenge is somehow better or more pure or whatever.

Because it's not. I'm just saying, if you are playing for the reward then admit that and don't claim something else.

CepaCepa, on 22 January 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

This, is what I tried to convey through those walls of text. If we're agreeing that one can have fun in a game WHILE expecting a chest at the end, that this does make sense, then I'm quite happy.

I understand your differentiating of different activities --- That some of them are designed for particular purposes, that some of them are physical while others are mental, that the level of challenge is different --- Yes of course, but what I said in my last post is: I do not think those differences are sufficient to justify a notion that a player is "solely playing for the challenge". "Playing a game instead of learning Chinese because it takes much less time" IS an additional factor in the decision making, for example, and that factor has nothing to do with challenge. If we need to spend so much time narrowing down the definition of challenge, and even then this "playing for the challenge" scenario is situational and requires layers and layers of decoration, then why don't we forgo this notion all together? Isn't it much more tolerant and therefore in this case, accurate, to say "challenge is OFTEN involved in making a game fun"? Neither is it ALWAYS a very important factor, nor is it ever the sole and only factor influencing people's decisions.

I was using immersion instead of hyper-reality because unlike hyper-reality, immersion DOES apply to playing tetris. Or any activity during which you can potentially "temporarily forget yourself", so to speak. Sports provide immersion, in fact most games that I can think of right now provides possibility of immersion --- perhaps that is a definition for "game" itself. Or work, you can be "immersed in your work". It's a state of mind that showcases concentration and a temporary shift in beliefs. But enough with explaining terms and all, the point is that in-game reward is necessary for validation of in-game beliefs, which is not to say that in-game beliefs need to be stated somewhere in lore, but rather they include ANY beliefs that I as a person experiences as I am immersed into the game. Like I said before, the point of adding in immersion is not to say "you're different in game and you belief different things hence why you'd be happy", but rather without immersion those "reward", or your "effort", don't make sense.

In conclusion, I hope we've agreed that 1. challenge brings satisfaction that does not need to be indicated by in-game rewards. 2. A player plays a game for not only challenge, but many many more things, some of which demands in-game rewards to provide satisfaction to players. And 3. Hence, it is perfectly fine for a fractal player at high levels to expect rewards.

I myself have 3 characters climbing up fractals, 2 of them are at 40+ and 1 of them is approaching 60, and I don't loot. It's a bad habbit but I don't loot, not in dungeons and not in fractals, because I feel that slows me down. And initially I forget to click the chest and that happened for almost a month after fractal is introduced. My engi went into lvl 40 with 10 AR, yet no one ever notices (except for Jade Maw, but that's fine because we're so close to the chest anyways so people won't care) because I rarely, rarely, rarely get hit by agony, so I've never thought ascended gears were necessary at all. But even then, even though I don't care for the loots, I KNOW that I'm not just playing for "a challenge". I'm also playing for player interactions, playing to get fractal weapon skins (hence, ego), etc etc. Ultimately, even though I sometimes don't even open up that splendid chest, having one there makes a difference to me. And that's just me, I'm sure other people get a lot more joy out of opening chests, and why not? That doesn't go against anything at all is what I'm saying.

But deciding to learn Chinese or not because of how long it takes or how hard it is is an important part of doing it for the challenge. Because how would you weigh a challenge if not by analyzing the, well, actual challenge of beating it?
Not to mention, of course, that one usually does not learn languages for the challenge of it. Some people do, but in general, that is one challenge that is more commonly undertaken for the reward, so to speak. I mean, the reason for learning Chinese is usually not because it is hard to learn, but because one wishes to know Chinese.

The reason we don't forego the playing for challenge angle is that it is real. I've been trying to tell you that over these few posts... A well-designed, well-defined challenge is fun to analyze, interact with, and eventually defeat. That doesn't mean that challenge is present in all games, I agree with that, and I also agree that a game can be fun even if it presents no challenge whatsoever. For example, some people consider Farmville to be fun, but that game certainly doesn't offer challenge!

Ok, I see your usage of the word "immersion". Sure, in that sense, Tetris is surely immersive: instead of building a hyperreality, it induces flow. However, for flow to exist there absolutely needs to be challenge. Period. Reward has nothing to do with it and has actually been (in studies. yes people do studies on fun) found to be counterproductive to fun in this situation. In-game rewards is needed specifically for hyperreality, not necessarily for immersion, so your point is moot. Sorry, because it was well argued.

You still didn't explain what in-game belief says that if you enter a level 40 Fractal your character is doing anything different than some other character entering a level 1 Fractal. In the in-game world, in the hyperreality, it is the same place and beating it should yield the same loot. The beliefs you are talking about are not in-game ones, they are the beliefs of the players, who are the ones actually experiencing the increased challenge.

Of course people think it is fun to open chests. Imagine that you (the real you) would get a truck full of gold bars. Would you think it is awesome? Yes.

Edited by raspberry jam, 23 January 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[CepaCepa]

raspberry jam, on 23 January 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

... but in general, that is one challenge that is more commonly undertaken for the reward...

Without posting another wall of text, here you've mentioned "challenge" and "reward" in the same sentence. I get what you mean, but isn't it better explained to say that "in addition to purely looking for a challenge, one also do thing for other reasons"? Because a challenge is a challenge is a challenge, if all we're interested is in the mental state of approaching a difficult but possible goal within which one has a certain degree of control, then other than the subjective measuring of "difficult", "possible" and "degree of control", all other information is irrelevant to "challenge" itself. Yes, taking a long time to learn something can be taken as a measurement of defining something "difficult", but I was not talking about that, I was talking about the desire to do something easy while achieving yet another goal (that is NOT related to the mental state of "being challenged"). Afterall, even if learning Chinese present no challenge at all, and that if you press a button you can learn Chinese, I'm sure most if not all people are willing to do it --- Hence illustrating that "challenge" is almost NEVER a sole reason for someone doing something.

I was not talking about immersion and in-game rewards at the same time, those are two points, one clarifying my previous statement and explaining that immersion may or may not include hyper-reality, and the other talking about in-game rewards versus in-game belief, which surely involves hyper-reality as apparent from the "in-game belief" part of the description. And of course people do studies on fun! It's an ultimate topic in both philosophy of mind as well as neuroscience/psychology, I myself is involved in many of them lol. Anyways, I don't see any major issue in this argument that will prevent the conclusion so let's move on to the next point:

My level 40 fractal character feels mighty, "leet" in other words, "critical" even "cynical" to himself and sometimes to others. Due to the mechanism in higher level fractals he needs to be absolutely on top of his dodges and skills to stay alive and kill things before things kill him. The belief he (and myself) hold as he enters a level 40 fractal is that "it is significantly more difficult, require more effort, and demands a clear demonstration of certain skills". My level 1 fractal character on the other hand, has none of those expectations as he enters fractal. Naturally, there needs to be some in-game reward for the in-game expectation and beliefs that my lvl 40 characters have, and those come in the form of: possible fractal weapon skins, and bragging rights. Those ARE in-game belief, again it's not like you suddenly lose your memory as you get online --- What you feel is what you feel. I as a player paid more attention and expected satisfaction from the challenge, which I got. My character went into a more prestigious and difficult "adventure" (where prestigious and difficult is derived from popular opinion and hence becomes in-game belief) expecting rewards of befitting magnitude, gathering such rewards then not only satisfies my desire of the rewards itself but also satisfaction to me as a confirmation to yet another belief of mine (mine, both as a player as well as the character), that paying more effort into something will get you good things. If I'm not immersed at all, those "good things" are no longer good (I mean, outside of the gaming environment, it means nothing, "good" is a value that is based on beliefs) and those rewards are just digital information that means nothing to me. Hence why it's necessary for you to get "into it" for a game to be "fun", it's a demonstration that "fun" is at multiple levels and in gaming, challenge is merely one of them.

Ultimately, you said that "if you're playing for the reward then admit that and don't claim something else", that doesn't make sense to me. IF someone is really ONLY playing for the reward (in the case of learning Chinese, someone wants to learn Chinese and can't care less about the process), why WOULD him claim something else? Besides, in most cases it doesn't make sense to "just want a reward in a game" --- For that reward to be really a "reward", he has to first and foremost has the set of belief that allows him to value what the reward represent as "good". An exception is perhaps gold farmers, which I seriously doubt would post on the forums and complain about a particular part of the game. And if someone is playing for the reward AS WELL as treating it as a challenge, confirming beliefs, etc etc, then why can't him claim something else? I want my cake and want to eat it too, you can call that "childish" or "unrealistic", but you can't say that it's wrong.

EDIT: I noticed that my first sentence said "without posting another wall of text", irony lol... Just a clarification, I tried to do that, really lol...

Edited by CepaCepa, 23 January 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[raspberry jam]

CepaCepa, on 23 January 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Without posting another wall of text, here you've mentioned "challenge" and "reward" in the same sentence. I get what you mean, but isn't it better explained to say that "in addition to purely looking for a challenge, one also do thing for other reasons"? Because a challenge is a challenge is a challenge, if all we're interested is in the mental state of approaching a difficult but possible goal within which one has a certain degree of control, then other than the subjective measuring of "difficult", "possible" and "degree of control", all other information is irrelevant to "challenge" itself. Yes, taking a long time to learn something can be taken as a measurement of defining something "difficult", but I was not talking about that, I was talking about the desire to do something easy while achieving yet another goal (that is NOT related to the mental state of "being challenged"). Afterall, even if learning Chinese present no challenge at all, and that if you press a button you can learn Chinese, I'm sure most if not all people are willing to do it --- Hence illustrating that "challenge" is almost NEVER a sole reason for someone doing something.

I was not talking about immersion and in-game rewards at the same time, those are two points, one clarifying my previous statement and explaining that immersion may or may not include hyper-reality, and the other talking about in-game rewards versus in-game belief, which surely involves hyper-reality as apparent from the "in-game belief" part of the description. And of course people do studies on fun! It's an ultimate topic in both philosophy of mind as well as neuroscience/psychology, I myself is involved in many of them lol. Anyways, I don't see any major issue in this argument that will prevent the conclusion so let's move on to the next point:

My level 40 fractal character feels mighty, "leet" in other words, "critical" even "cynical" to himself and sometimes to others. Due to the mechanism in higher level fractals he needs to be absolutely on top of his dodges and skills to stay alive and kill things before things kill him. The belief he (and myself) hold as he enters a level 40 fractal is that "it is significantly more difficult, require more effort, and demands a clear demonstration of certain skills". My level 1 fractal character on the other hand, has none of those expectations as he enters fractal. Naturally, there needs to be some in-game reward for the in-game expectation and beliefs that my lvl 40 characters have, and those come in the form of: possible fractal weapon skins, and bragging rights. Those ARE in-game belief, again it's not like you suddenly lose your memory as you get online --- What you feel is what you feel. I as a player paid more attention and expected satisfaction from the challenge, which I got. My character went into a more prestigious and difficult "adventure" (where prestigious and difficult is derived from popular opinion and hence becomes in-game belief) expecting rewards of befitting magnitude, gathering such rewards then not only satisfies my desire of the rewards itself but also satisfaction to me as a confirmation to yet another belief of mine (mine, both as a player as well as the character), that paying more effort into something will get you good things. If I'm not immersed at all, those "good things" are no longer good (I mean, outside of the gaming environment, it means nothing, "good" is a value that is based on beliefs) and those rewards are just digital information that means nothing to me. Hence why it's necessary for you to get "into it" for a game to be "fun", it's a demonstration that "fun" is at multiple levels and in gaming, challenge is merely one of them.

Ultimately, you said that "if you're playing for the reward then admit that and don't claim something else", that doesn't make sense to me. IF someone is really ONLY playing for the reward (in the case of learning Chinese, someone wants to learn Chinese and can't care less about the process), why WOULD him claim something else? Besides, in most cases it doesn't make sense to "just want a reward in a game" --- For that reward to be really a "reward", he has to first and foremost has the set of belief that allows him to value what the reward represent as "good". An exception is perhaps gold farmers, which I seriously doubt would post on the forums and complain about a particular part of the game. And if someone is playing for the reward AS WELL as treating it as a challenge, confirming beliefs, etc etc, then why can't him claim something else? I want my cake and want to eat it too, you can call that "childish" or "unrealistic", but you can't say that it's wrong.

EDIT: I noticed that my first sentence said "without posting another wall of text", irony lol... Just a clarification, I tried to do that, really lol...

But i beg to differ. Something being a challenge is a reason for many to do something. In fact I'd say that more things than people are comfortable with admitting, is done for the challenge of it - pretty much all competitive activity, for example. Every time you tell yourself "let's see if I can do this", it's a challenge.
That said, though, such challenges are often very brief. Seconds, hours, maybe even days. But years? Not so often. I'm sure that there are people who learned Chinese for the challenge of it, but as I said, it's more common to do that simply because you want to learn Chinese. That does not mean that it is the same way for all challenges...

It is important to realize that doing something for the challenge means that you are doing it for a reward. Because beating the challenge yields a reward: it causes certain chemicals to be released in your brain, making you happy. But if that was all that you get, that also means that learning Chinese is a pretty low-yield reward compared to the effort required. The main reward from learning Chinese is knowing Chinese, not feeling happy about that you managed to learn Chinese.
People are of course instinctively smart enough to realize this, which is why they prefer some other challenge that makes them just as happy as learning Chinese would, with less effort. Such as shooting people in Call of Duty. It's simple economics!

So, let's be clear about something here: while "playing for challenge" really means playing for a specific kind of reward, in the context of our discussion, "playing for reward" means specifically not the reward of happiness about beating a challenge, but an external (to the conquest of the challenge) reward that you get for beating the challenge. I just mention this so that we can be precise about what we say.

With all that in mind, yes of course just about anyone would press the instant-Chinese button. After all, it is in practically all cases better to know a foreign language than to not know it. But why would that mean that challenge is almost never a reason to do something? It doesn't mean that at all, because far from all challenges are as arduous to take on as learning a language. Because, note (and this is a not-so-well guarded secret to game design, by the way), the difficulty (or the tedium) of a challenge has in fact very little to do with how satisfying it is to beat.

Yes, what you feel is what you feel, but that has no impact on my argument. My argument is that if you catch a fish it will be a fish. If you enter a Fractal you enter that Fractal. How does your character know which level you entered? That is something you as a player know. Your character has no idea. Nor has he any idea of what a display of skill means - he is just trying to stay alive and defeat the baddies!

Anyway. You say that the statement "if you're playing for the reward then admit that and don't claim something else" doesn't make sense to you. It should be seen in the light of this:

Stigma, on 18 January 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

A reward for a challenge is about being recognized for that challenge whether it be for yourself or from others.
(...)
The rewards also help define how hard a challenge.

And this:

Thaddeuz, on 17 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Because if a game and people want to have some kind of reward.

As well as various other similar posts in this thread. These people obviously play for the reward - one of them even claims that she can't realize from the challenge itself how hard it is without external reinforcement. The other one simply claims that the satisfaction of beating a challenge is not a reward. But they still claim to be playing for the challenge.

This discussion does not purport to cakes, but to honesty to one's own purposes.

[Thaddeuz]

raspberry jam, on 24 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

As well as various other similar posts in this thread. These people obviously play for the reward - one of them even claims that she can't realize from the challenge itself how hard it is without external reinforcement. The other one simply claims that the satisfaction of beating a challenge is not a reward. But they still claim to be playing for the challenge.

I stopped to post on this topic because it go nowhere, but this it's me you quoted. I'm Thaddeuz and i don't approve this message.

No seriously, stop twisting my words. How can you say that i obviously play for the reward. Ah and screw that. I was about to write something and remember that i already did more than 10 times already. And still this topic is still about the same argument over and over.

I would only say that i do some dungeon in duo with my friend : AC path 1 and 2, SE path 2 and 3, and we are thinking of doing CoF path 2 before getting into Arah. I don't do that for the reward, the same way i don't do level 60+ Fractal for the reward.

[raspberry jam]

Thaddeuz, on 24 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

How can you say that i obviously play for the reward.

GEE MAN I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE BECAUSE YOU SAY SO YOURSELF??

Thaddeuz, on 17 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Because if a game and people want to have some kind of reward.

[Prefon Guardmar]

I would be curious to know what builds those guardians are running, anyone have any insight?

[Thaddeuz]

Thaddeuz, on 17 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Because if a game and people want to have some kind of reward. Even if the drop is not the main reason to do it. I seriously don't understand your point there.

THIS is my quote. Stop choosing the only little part that you can twist as you wish and help your point.

I'm saying :
1) I do high level fractal now. They giving me a challenge and some reward.
2) If there were no reward I would still doing the Fractal because of the challenge.
3) If the Fractal was a normal dungeon with only 1 story and 3 path, I would do them to get ascended gear, then only do them periodically because they are fun. But it would not be the main part of my game, like it's the case right now.

I'm not saying that it's the same situation for everybody. Everyone is different and have motivation of their own. Just don't make the assumption that because a reward exist, NOBODY can do it for the challenge.

Edited by Thaddeuz, 24 January 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[raspberry jam]

Thaddeuz, on 24 January 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

THIS is my quote. Stop choosing the only little part that you can twist as you wish and help your point.

I'm saying :
1) I do high level fractal now. They giving me a challenge and some reward.
2) If there were no reward I would still doing the Fractal because of the challenge.
3) If the Fractal was a normal dungeon with only 1 story and 3 path, I would do them to get ascended gear, then only do them periodically because they are fun. But it would not be the main part of my game, like it the case right now.

I'm not saying that it's the case for everybody. Everyone is different and have motivation of their own. Just don't make the assumption that because a reward exist, NOBODY can do it for the challenge.

But I don't make that assumption... You said that "people" want a reward, maybe you didn't include yourself there.

Anyway, the issue isn't even the reward, but the different rewards for different levels. What do you think of that? Would you be ok with high level Fractals being rewarded the same as level 1?

[Dominox]

You are quoting the answer to your question.

Hint: #2

[Thaddeuz]

raspberry jam, on 24 January 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

But I don't make that assumption... You said that "people" want a reward, maybe you didn't include yourself there.

Anyway, the issue isn't even the reward, but the different rewards for different levels. What do you think of that? Would you be ok with high level Fractals being rewarded the same as level 1?

I already responded to that. I would be piss, but that would not stop me from doing high level fractal. Why? Because the reward is already not that high. I do more money from doing all three path of AC in 45min with Omnomberry bar, or doing CoF path 1 in 7min with Onomberry bar, or farming Charged and Onyx lodestone or even better playing with the Trading Post.

[CepaCepa]

raspberry jam, on 24 January 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Yes, what you feel is what you feel, but that has no impact on my argument. My argument is that if you catch a fish it will be a fish. If you enter a Fractal you enter that Fractal. How does your character know which level you entered? That is something you as a player know. Your character has no idea. Nor has he any idea of what a display of skill means - he is just trying to stay alive and defeat the baddies!

I see that all the other points to an agreement: that people do fractals, or do most things, not only due to one particular reason but many reasons, hence it makes sense for them to expect not only just one outcome or "reward", but several of them. Feeling happy and confident = reward of a challenge, knowing Chinese itself = reward of learning it. The challenge and learning are not two distinct events, they merely mirror the different and multiple expectations that one would have while doing one particular thing.

And I'll respond to the above quoted text because that point of mine was still not understood I feel. Hyper-reality, or immersion at large, definitely do not require you to "completely forget who you are". That's amnesia or multiple personalities. And ultimately, YOU are experiencing hyper-reality, not "your character", it's just our lazy way to explain things to the public when we say "you treat yourself as your character". I mean, there's a difference between "role play" and "multiple personality disorder", and that difference is continued partial memory and hence continued self awareness across different "roles". I believe that higher fractals are more difficult (due to my own experience as well as community consensus), and I certainly don't instantly forget about that whenever I log into the game. Whenever I play the game I don't say "what should my character do" but instead, due to immersion, I'd say "what should I do now", which doesn't mean "I am my character". If it helps, "my character is me" is more accurate. I'll be so concentrated into the game that I forget to eat dinner, forget what time it is, unaware of people around me and so on, but to take the description "enjoy things as your character" literally is too much --- We're not talking about pathological cases here, even though we certainly can, which would make it another topic.

[Stigma]

I come back to this thread and we're still going at it with walls of txt on philosophy ....i don't even wanna read.

So.... I've still been annoyed at the fact that Anet hasn't released more AR gear, the fact that there is more AR gear, and the fact that the Jade Maw Agony is undodgeable. Who here shares my hate?

[Lordkrall]

Stigma, on 24 January 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

I come back to this thread and we're still going at it with walls of txt on philosophy ....i don't even wanna read.

So.... I've still been annoyed at the fact that Anet hasn't released more AR gear, the fact that there is more AR gear, and the fact that the Jade Maw Agony is undodgeable. Who here shares my hate?

Seeing as we are getting more AR gear on Tuesday I don't really see the problem.

[raspberry jam]

Thaddeuz, on 24 January 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I already responded to that. I would be piss, but that would not stop me from doing high level fractal. Why? Because the reward is already not that high. I do more money from doing all three path of AC in 45min with Omnomberry bar, or doing CoF path 1 in 7min with Onomberry bar, or farming Charged and Onyx lodestone or even better playing with the Trading Post.

Why would you be pissed about it?

CepaCepa, on 24 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

I see that all the other points to an agreement: that people do fractals, or do most things, not only due to one particular reason but many reasons, hence it makes sense for them to expect not only just one outcome or "reward", but several of them. Feeling happy and confident = reward of a challenge, knowing Chinese itself = reward of learning it. The challenge and learning are not two distinct events, they merely mirror the different and multiple expectations that one would have while doing one particular thing.

And I'll respond to the above quoted text because that point of mine was still not understood I feel. Hyper-reality, or immersion at large, definitely do not require you to "completely forget who you are". That's amnesia or multiple personalities. And ultimately, YOU are experiencing hyper-reality, not "your character", it's just our lazy way to explain things to the public when we say "you treat yourself as your character". I mean, there's a difference between "role play" and "multiple personality disorder", and that difference is continued partial memory and hence continued self awareness across different "roles". I believe that higher fractals are more difficult (due to my own experience as well as community consensus), and I certainly don't instantly forget about that whenever I log into the game. Whenever I play the game I don't say "what should my character do" but instead, due to immersion, I'd say "what should I do now", which doesn't mean "I am my character". If it helps, "my character is me" is more accurate. I'll be so concentrated into the game that I forget to eat dinner, forget what time it is, unaware of people around me and so on, but to take the description "enjoy things as your character" literally is too much --- We're not talking about pathological cases here, even though we certainly can, which would make it another topic.

But they do not point to an agreement. How could they? First, expectation was not even mentioned, second, it is only present in the case of a stated, external reward - which has been proven to make fun activities less fun, by the way.

And no, I understood you perfectly well, but that still doesn't explain why the increase of reward (loot) in the presence of an increased challenge should in any way be connected to immersion. What you are saying is "I ought to be rewarded more because I do X in a more challenging way", while not addressing the fact that the reward cannot possibly be for anything else than doing X. Just like with choosing to learn Chinese because you know Chinese, I'm talking about your choice - seen from the hyperreality standpoint - to even enter FotM to begin with: it's because "you" want the reward of doing X (completing a Fractal run). Yet you want the reward to be scaled with the level of challenge, something which is not part of the hyperreality. This has nothing to do with forgetting who you are, because you still know about the challenge.

Would you be ok with level 20 having the same rewards as level 1?

Lordkrall, on 24 January 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Seeing as we are getting more AR gear on Tuesday I don't really see the problem.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill.

--Chris Whiteside

[Thaddeuz]

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Why would you be pissed about it?

Why do you ask over and over the 3-4 same question. I would be piss because i need gold and Ecto to craft Vision of the Mist for my Mesmer and Sunrise for my Guardian. The reward in Fractal allow me to continue doing them while accumulate enough material and gold.

Before you ask me the same question again. I WOULD CONTINUE TO DO FRACTAL, it's just that i would also do more dungeon and farming.

[raspberry jam]

Thaddeuz, on 25 January 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Why do you ask over and over the 3-4 same question. I would be piss because i need gold and Ecto to craft Vision of the Mist for my Mesmer and Sunrise for my Guardian. The reward in Fractal allow me to continue doing them while accumulate enough material and gold.

Before you ask me the same question again. I WOULD CONTINUE TO DO FRACTAL, it's just that i would also do more dungeon and farming.

So would I be correct in saying that your view on this matter is that you enjoy the challenge but don't want to have to do both Fractals and some other, more profitable content?

If that is so, then I would like to ask you why you would feel the need to also do the profitable content. Could it be because you want the profits? The rewards?

I would also like to ask (even though I already know) why you view playing the game as something negative.

[Thaddeuz]

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

So would I be correct in saying that your view on this matter is that you enjoy the challenge but don't want to have to do both Fractals and some other, more profitable content?

If that is so, then I would like to ask you why you would feel the need to also do the profitable content. Could it be because you want the profits? The rewards?

I would also like to ask (even though I already know) why you view playing the game as something negative.

1) WTH. Its not because i DON'T want to do the other ''more profitable content''. I just don't have enough time. In the weekend I have time to do fractal, dungeon, WvW, sPvP, etc. But in the week i only have time to do 1 Fractal run and my daily. Sometimes i can do 2 fractals, but not often.

2) I just told you that i want gold and ecto to get my Legendary on my Guardian.

3) Now this is just out of the Blue. I like a large part of the game. You just want me to say that i don't like grinding for reward. Well too bad, i don't do thing that i don't like

[raspberry jam]

Thaddeuz, on 25 January 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

1) WTH. Its not because i DON'T want to do the other ''more profitable content''. I just don't have enough time. In the weekend I have time to do fractal, dungeon, WvW, sPvP, etc. But in the week i only have time to do 1 Fractal run and my daily. Sometimes i can do 2 fractals, but not often.

2) I just told you that i want gold and ecto to get my Legendary on my Guardian.

3) Now this is just out of the Blue. I like a large part of the game. You just want me to say that i don't like grinding for reward. Well too bad, i don't do thing that i don't like

Yes, exactly, basically it is a question about time. You want to optimize your play so that you can play the "challenging" content (high level Fractals) while still getting high reward? Is that right? And you'd be pissed if they changed that to make Fractals no longer the most profitable content?

[Thaddeuz]

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yes, exactly, basically it is a question about time. You want to optimize your play so that you can play the "challenging" content (high level Fractals) while still getting high reward? Is that right? And you'd be pissed if they changed that to make Fractals no longer the most profitable content?

It's not the most profitable content. I can make far more gold in several other way.

[CepaCepa]

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

And no, I understood you perfectly well, but that still doesn't explain why the increase of reward (loot) in the presence of an increased challenge should in any way be connected to immersion. What you are saying is "I ought to be rewarded more because I do X in a more challenging way", while not addressing the fact that the reward cannot possibly be for anything else than doing X. Just like with choosing to learn Chinese because you know Chinese, I'm talking about your choice - seen from the hyperreality standpoint - to even enter FotM to begin with: it's because "you" want the reward of doing X (completing a Fractal run). Yet you want the reward to be scaled with the level of challenge, something which is not part of the hyperreality. This has nothing to do with forgetting who you are, because you still know about the challenge.

Yes, seen from the hyper-reality standpoint, reward been scaled with difficulty = a belief in that hyper-reality, of course! It is a belief of myself, who have always believed that in MMORPG, or in almost ANY games, or in life in general, going through something more difficult will yield more reward at each corresponding layer of reality. I retain that belief when I start playing a game, so I expect to see reward being scaled with difficulty --- If ANet have informed me otherwise, I wouldn't have that expectation, but they have not, instead what I see is: reward gets increased with difficulty, just not by much. This is all fine with me because that expectation is only one of my many expectations as I go into fractals, and a very unimportant one --- But nevertheless, whenever a positive expectation is not met, no matter how small the expectation is, one would be disappointed. You brush it off mostly because there are bigger and more important expectations for you and those are indeed met. This is not to say that one wouldn't be expecting higher reward for more difficulty --- Certainly we are! The very fact that so many people are arguing about it, the very fact that people always link their loot in chat and wishing each other luck at Jade Maw means that we expect reward, and to different degree we expect to see reward scale with difficulty.

Just because the game didn't tell us something particularly doesn't mean it does not exist in one's hyper-reality. It is YOUR hyper-reality because the important thing is YOU, and YOU have beliefs that you bring into the game, such as rewards in life often correlates with difficulty. If everyone only believes what ANet have explicitly said while playing the game, or in other words programmed and adhere to rules solely and only when told by the rule makers, then what are we but programs? Without personal input that arrives from outside of the system, how is this system different from a single player game?

[Eon Lilu]

Quick question for those who are on lvl 30-40-50-60 + Fractals...

Now forget agony for one moment, I am not giving a crap about agony damage because eventually will have enough agony stats on armor, jewellry etc to cover it. So please forget agony for one moment...

My questions is regarding actual mobs damage and boss's etc at those level.

At those level's is vit / toughness completely useless as the mobs one shot anyway no matter how much you have? Or is it still a good idea to have some survivability?

Basically im on lvl 25 fractals with my guardian, so far my build has been working great been steaming through fractals with ease. Im always getting asked to come on runs with groups, Im just wondering if I should stick with my crit, might stacking / support / tanky / buffing build or go full damage when I get to say lvl 40-50+ fractals?

Or are the mobs manageable at later levels where vit and toughness are still worth keeping?

TLDR: Vit  / toughness useless at lvl 40+ fractal's against mobs? ( forget about agony just normal npc damage im asking about )

I ask because I dont want to invest into the wrong stats of ascended gear for later fractals.

Cheers.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 26 January 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[Thaddeuz]

Eon Lilu, on 26 January 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Or are the mobs manageable at later levels where vit and toughness are still worth keeping?

The answer is yes, but you can't count of those to survive. As you go in higher level you will need to avoid as much hits as you can (even in melee.) I can't talk for every profession, but i don't melee as much as i used to do in low level. When i do, i use all the tricks possible to stay alive.

I have 3000 defense and 15k hp and i'm the ''tank'' of my group. I don't like when people have more defense than me, because i know i can survive and kite pretty much everything right now, so basically i take the agro and i want others to kill as fast as they could. A group with 2-3 player with stats like mines, and we probably won't be able to do some fractals (lack of DPS) and i still have +50% critical chance. What i'm saying is that defensive stats are good in high level fractal, but like condition damage you don't want everybody going in that direction. What is the perfect balance? I don't know, its different for everybody.

Eon Lilu, on 26 January 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

Now forget agony for one moment, I am not giving a crap about agony damage because eventually will have enough agony stats on armor, jewellry etc to cover it. So please forget agony for one moment...

That is just not true. For now, at level 40+ you can't got enough AR to don't need to avoid the Agony. At this level Jade Maw kill everybody with the Agony even with 30 AR. At level 60, pretty much all agony mean instant downing or even death. With the next path monday, you can probably put +10 level of these limits. Jade Maw gonna wipe you all at level 50 or something like that.

[Eon Lilu]

Thaddeuz, on 28 January 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

The answer is yes, but you can't count of those to survive. As you go in higher level you will need to avoid as much hits as you can (even in melee.) I can't talk for every profession, but i don't melee as much as i used to do in low level. When i do, i use all the tricks possible to stay alive.

I have 3000 defense and 15k hp and i'm the ''tank'' of my group. I don't like when people have more defense than me, because i know i can survive and kite pretty much everything right now, so basically i take the agro and i want others to kill as fast as they could. A group with 2-3 player with stats like mines, and we probably won't be able to do some fractals (lack of DPS) and i still have +50% critical chance. What i'm saying is that defensive stats are good in high level fractal, but like condition damage you don't want everybody going in that direction. What is the perfect balance? I don't know, its different for everybody.



That is just not true. For now, at level 40+ you can't got enough AR to don't need to avoid the Agony. At this level Jade Maw kill everybody with the Agony even with 30 AR. At level 60, pretty much all agony mean instant downing or even death. With the next path monday, you can probably put +10 level of these limits. Jade Maw gonna wipe you all at level 50 or something like that.

Sounds like were running similar builds that help the group alot more, cheers for the info, means I don't need to change my build up and now I know what to go for higher level fractals with ascended gear. Cheers.

I said forget about agony because one, I did not want that distracting from the actual question and two, agony does not matter, why? I am not saying you do not need it, you do eventually, I am saying that at the higher levels of fractals right now we were never suppose to go that high yet, why you say?

Because there is still 2 earrings, armor and more upgrades to come plus actually ascended statted weapons with upgrades aswell, I have no plans of going to lvl 60 fractals or even lvl 50 fractals until we get more agony stats, just with 2-3 more items we get what another 30 AR? So sooner or later we will be upwards of 80AR+, then if armor gives more AR that the +5 or +10 jewellery it could be even more, making agony no problem at all.

That is why I said forget about agony, I personally am in no rush to get ahead and rush to higher levels when we only have 3 ascended items and soon to be 4 ascended items out at the moment, it was not intended im guesing for us to rush to higher levels where you get one shot by agony. We will be getting more AR sooner or later.

For example, I got to lvl 25 fractals with just 10 AR, when on the gw2lfg website you see "lvl20 run fast ONLY 30AR" or "only 20-25AR", I still get asked for groups, I tell them I only have 10 before we start aswell, showing that what people think you need and what you actually need are pretty far apart. I guess they just trying to limit the chances of the wipe, but you realy do not need as much AR as people say you do if you are a decent player.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 28 January 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Levistis]

Grats guys, very nice teamwork. I'll only wonder if my group will make it there someday

[CepaCepa]

Eon Lilu, on 28 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

For example, I got to lvl 25 fractals with just 10 AR, when on the gw2lfg website you see "lvl20 run fast ONLY 30AR" or "only 20-25AR", I still get asked for groups, I tell them I only have 10 before we start aswell, showing that what people think you need and what you actually need are pretty far apart. I guess they just trying to limit the chances of the wipe, but you realy do not need as much AR as people say you do if you are a decent player.

You can dodge/immune/block all Agony skills (and Agony damage) that bosses do except for Jade Maw, my engi got to 40+ with 15 AR and no one seems to notice. Just think of it as this: if you get an infused ring, why not use it? Ascended gears do have slightly more stats anyways. Same with backpack, ascended capacitor has nice stats. But I won't go much beyond that, the OP got to lvl 80 with 25-30 AR, so can everyone else (in theory).

And if you're a guardian, don't worry lol. As long as you know when and how to make the most out of your Wall of Reflection + Shield of Avengers, teams will take you no matter what AR you've got.

[Eon Lilu]

CepaCepa, on 28 January 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

And if you're a guardian, don't worry lol. As long as you know when and how to make the most out of your Wall of Reflection + Shield of Avengers, teams will take you no matter what AR you've got.

That + time warp memsers yeah true lol. I have a feeling though, think of it more as a bad feeling that those skills are getting nerfed in this update, I hope im wrong but alot of people been saying how those two skills being too effective against ranged damage.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 28 January 2013 - 07:07 PM.