176 replies to this topic

[Eon Lilu]

Players do it for the bragging epeen rights and hoping that Anet add more rewards to fractals later on, maybe fractal armor that only drops at lvl 40+ or ascended stat weapons at lvl 60+ etc etc...those are just examples.

They will already have the levels unlocked if Anet adds more rewards to higher levels in the future.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 20 January 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[KodakMoment]

Eon Lilu, on 20 January 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Players do it for the bragging epeen rights and hoping that Anet add more rewards to fractals later on, maybe fractal armor that only drops at lvl 40+ or ascended stat weapons at lvl 60+ etc etc...those are just examples.

They will already have the levels unlocked if Anet adds more rewards to higher levels in the future.

I personally think the current weapon skin drops is horrible. The chance of getting a weapon to drop is already pretty low then ontop of that there is 1/19 chance you will get the exact skin you want. You can't trade in a skin you already own for another or buy them with relics. Oh and then you can keep getting the same skin over and over. I've gotten 2 fractal swords that I haven't even used

[Eon Lilu]

KodakMoment, on 20 January 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I personally think the current weapon skin drops is horrible. The chance of getting a weapon to drop is already pretty low then ontop of that there is 1/19 chance you will get the exact skin you want. You can't trade in a skin you already own for another or buy them with relics. Oh and then you can keep getting the same skin over and over. I've gotten 2 fractal swords that I haven't even used

It was just an example and I was thinking more of in the future, when they will most likely add more rewards at higher level fractals for example, ascended armor and maybe even ascended weapons, not just the skins but with ascended stats aswell. I agree the currect aquisition and the fact some ascended stats are completely missing from the game like knights etc, is just silly.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 20 January 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Stigma]

Eon Lilu, on 20 January 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Players do it for the bragging epeen rights and hoping that Anet add more rewards to fractals later on, maybe fractal armor that only drops at lvl 40+ or ascended stat weapons at lvl 60+ etc etc...those are just examples.

They will already have the levels unlocked if Anet adds more rewards to higher levels in the future.

Of course why else would Dazzy make a GW2Guru account and have only 1 post here? =P

[Var]

gewd, on 20 January 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm the warrior in the video, and I am not surprised that the discussion has turned into one about why Fractals are bad.

You only need 2 guardians. We just had 3 because a lot of guardians level up faster since they are the only class that is required and thus easier to find parties for. Having a warrior or mesmer didn't make a difference whether we were able to progress or not.

For those of you who don't know, the only thing that matters is wall of reflection and shield of the avenger. With these 2 skills you can block ranged attacks which cause most of the damage in the upper levels because anyone can avoid melee damage by ranging mobs.

I would like Anet to fix this because I don't want the game to devolve into GW1 where people waited hours for monks.

Indeed, WoR and SotA (you can also do the same thing with air eles thought not quite as well) are just too powerful considering that they can effectively render whole encounters moot by blocking every attack (or reflecting it for a bonus of damage). Unfortunately, fixing this isn't going to be easy sans giving both skills the Smiter's Boon treatment, or just putting an absorption cap on both SotA and WoR: aborbs/reflects X attacks, breaks.

[gewd]

If you remove the ability to block projectiles, no one will be able to get up to 80.

No amount of skill will let you dodge barrage after barrage of homing projectiles that take half your HP.

[Albo El Bows]

Woops retract my previous statement; wasnt paying attention

Edited by Albo El Bows, 21 January 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Lordkrall]

Albo El Bows, on 21 January 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

Anyone else notice that the video is of a mesmer, but the party shows 3 guardians and 1 warrior? Also when he goes down the person in the party window did not go down.

The players portrait does not show in the party part of the screen. A full party always show only 4 different people, since you see your own vitals at the skill bar.

Edited by Lordkrall, 21 January 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[raspberry jam]

CepaCepa, on 18 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

That, I'm afraid, is circular logic. Your topic at hand is "why is the game fun", because without answering that you can't answer the general question "Why does someone play the game". An intermediately premise is "The game is fun", which I think we all agree, otherwise the argument can't proceed.

Now if you ask "why is the game fun", you can't say things like "if the game isn't fun he wouldn't be playing the game", that's like saying "a rectangle should be defined to have 4 sides because otherwise it wouldn't be a rectangle", it's circular logic. You're using the presumed answer of the question to answer the question, defeating the purpose of asking the question in the first place, and hence does not provide any more proof than an "I said so".

So if you want to proceed to argue in the process that you've provided above, you have to first provide evidence that suggests that "matter of fairness and principle" is independent from the "total fun that a player gets". In other words, your opponent is arguing that "matter of fairness and principle is what makes the game more fun", so if you'd have to prove that "having fun in game" and "matter of fairness and principle" are independent. As for my opinion, I don't think they are independent. What you call "fun" already needs to incorporate all these details, which brings us to hyper-reality that you've mentioned.

At the bottom of hyper-reality is immersion, which is the state where concept of one's self and surrounding is temporarily replaced with something else, essentially blocking out certain information while retaining others. So here we have two entities: the joy a player gets by the very fact of "immersion", and the joy a player gets as he is immersed. If you're arguing that a player gets all his fun from simply being immersed regardless of content, you'd be supporting that everyone enjoys every movie equally given equal concentration. You'd also be suggesting that "temporarily unaware of a part of one's own personal history is the sole and indistinguishable reason for one's enjoyment of movies, books, games, and many social environments". Obviously (I hope this we agree) this is not the case, because naturally, the joy that you get as you are immersed also count toward your "fun", since these feelings still reside in your memory long after you get out of immersion. And your opponent is saying that "matter of fairness and principle" is something many people bring into the immersion (you need an assumption and a set of belief in the "immersed world", which may or may not overlap with your real world belief) and hence is an important factor in "having fun in an immersed game".

You have mentioned "challenge" as if it should be the only reason for one's enjoyment of the game, but if challenge can be clearly carved out and indeed is what makes things fun for most people, then why play the game? Why immersion? Why not find someone bigger than you in your gym and arm wrestle? That certainly is a challenge. Or see if you can tough your toes with your finger tips, legs straight together. You're constructing the whole issue as if these factors can be singled out, but the complex and (pardon the pun) fractal nature of human perception just doesn't support picking one parameter out and expect a meaningful unbiased observation.

To illustrate the point further, let's talk about "challenge" itself --- What is a challenge? Is it a challenge to try to jump 5 meters into the air with your own bare feet? It is not, because it is next to impossible. Is it a challenge to throw a coin and see whether if the head is up? No that's just gambling, not a challenge, because you have next to no input and control in the matter. Now going to a Casino for a night and trying to win 500 bucks is a challenge, trying to jump and touch your roof with your fingers is a challenge. Now, it is inherent that a "challenge" means that there is a "status" or "goal" that you're striving to achieve, your satisfaction resides within the "hope" of reaching that goal, or in the case of a clearly defined goal like this, to "WIN". "To Win" provides you with a mental state of confidence, security, dissipation of self doubt --- But wait, didn't you arbitrarily add in the self doubt and the insecurity and all those probable alternative results yourself by looking for the challenge?

You just can't model the brain as a linear system and have everything just fall into place. Like fractal, it just keeps going in circles in unpredictable orders and unlike fractals, it doesn't have a lvl 80 cap.

Your last paragraph seems to imply that nonlinear systems are not predictable. Either that or you're skipping a step. And human perception is not fractal in nature. And yes, self-doubt and insecurity are psychological constructs that help motivate us (as a population) to excel.

Anyway, that is all fine, and to answer your question (which I'm sure was rhetorical), one plays a game because it provides not only a challenge, but a challenge created by a dedicated team of, in some cases, hundreds of people, a challenge designed to feed your ego in the exact right way. Also, the challenge is intellectual, not physical - while there are physical elements involved in playing a video game, they are limited to clicking a mouse, pressing buttons/keys, and moving analog devices (sticks, mouse). There is some element of reflex, timing, accuracy involved, but the rest of the challenge pertains to your mind, not to your body.
The nonphysical nature of it makes it entirely different from arm wrestling, attempting to touch your toes with your fingers, jumping into the air and whatever else you mentioned. As I said, it's also a designed challenge, making it different from other nonphysical challenges such as learning Chinese or trying to verify the Riemann hypothesis.

I mentioned feeding the ego. Consider that a video game is a designed challenge. I'm talking only about the PvE, campaign, etc., portion here, not any part where you face other players (since that challenge is not designed). The enemies and bosses you meet in FotM and other places are there to give you a challenge... But consider that in the hyperreality, they are there to kill you, but in the real reality, they are there to be killed by you.

That said, it remains that "fairness" must have a root in the lore to be part of immersion. Is there some (lore) agency/t that rewards you more if you pick a higher level? Of course not, and thus it is not part of immersion. The "fairness" is entirely in the real reality: merely the idea that you dedicate yourself more to beat a higher challenge, dedication that you could spend on farming other parts of the game for more money if the reward didn't match the challenge.

Stigma, on 18 January 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Perhaps you would cause less tension in this thread if you were to stop sounding condescending on multiple posts.

We do things for fun and a certain level of fun. I understand where you are coming from but I just think you're mistaken for trying to separate challenge and reward when they are not dichotomies but come in a bundle. If you get the challenge and reward you feel a better level of fun than just completing a challenge with no recognition. A reward for a challenge is about being recognized for that challenge whether it be for yourself or from others.

If we go with your philosophy then we might as well just remove all magic chests, all achievement awards, all loot drops because we can fuel our fun just with beating monsters into the floor. If you remove all dungeon rewards than you also might as well remove all loot, all magic chest, all achievements, etc in the game. The rewards also help define how hard a challenge.

Absolutely, we could remove all that and derive fun from just playing the game. I never understood the "congratulations, you had fun, now here's your shiny" idea, but yes, of course there should be some sort of reward. Not to have a better level of fun, as you put it, but simply because otherwise you'd be wearing the same armor and use the same weapons for the entire game. I'm not even saying that there shouldn't be rewards, I'm just saying that people should realize that they actually are playing for the rewards. Their character certainly would be.

That said, I'm not certain that there should be more rewards than for doing it on level 1. I see no reason for it. When you say "rewards define how hard a challenge", that is true, and not... the challenge is hard no matter how much rewards you get for it.

Gilles VI, on 18 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

And we went back to square one...

There is no gating, you can do every fractal on lvl1, thus nothing is required for you to see all content = no gating.

There is gating, because the actual content (the reason to do the thing, especially multiple times) is the rewards, not the maps you run through.

Thaddeuz, on 18 January 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

The discussion go nowhere. We don't agree with you, you don't agree with us and nobody gonna change their mind soon. You are not totally wrong. I mean some people see Fractal like a pain in the ass and don't do it anymore, other do medium daily just for the reward, other do high level fractal for the challenge but would stop doing that if there were no reward at all, and finally there is people that would continue to do high level fractal even if there were no reward at all.

But our point is that several people ( I include myself) are doing high level fractal because of the challenge. I would be piss if they remove the reward and probably would play less fractal since i also want to get enough gold for other part of the game. If the reward i get from the Fractal were my priority i would simply do daily 20-30 and maybe 40, but i would certainly not continue to higher fractals.

So basically you are doing it for the challenge but would be upset if they didn't give you a reward? HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING MAN??

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

There is gating, because the actual content (the reason to do the thing, especially multiple times) is the rewards, not the maps you run through.

Good to know you have your own definition of gated content.

And if I may ask, for what content is the reward needed? What content can you not complete without it?
Thus specifically requiring you to grind fractals?

dazzyy, on 16 January 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

80>81
gw04111.jpg

I see you got 3 guardians, would you mind sharing what build you use?
Or what build would you recommend for a guardian for high level fractals?

Edited by Gilles VI, 21 January 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[dazzyy]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Good to know you have your own definition of gated content.

And if I may ask, for what content is the reward needed? What content can you not complete without it?
Thus specifically requiring you to grind fractals?



I see you got 3 guardians, would you mind sharing what build you use?
Or what build would you recommend for a guardian for high level fractals?

Well,you can ask my teamates:)

[raspberry jam]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Good to know you have your own definition of gated content.

And if I may ask, for what content is the reward needed? What content can you not complete without it?
Thus specifically requiring you to grind fractals?

You can't get full ascended/infused gear without doing fractals. And you can't max out your stats without that.

Well, unless you get legendaries in every slot, but is that even possible?

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You can't get full ascended/infused gear without doing fractals. And you can't max out your stats without that.

Well, unless you get legendaries in every slot, but is that even possible?

You can't get full ascended/infused gear by doing fractals either.

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

You can't get full ascended/infused gear by doing fractals either.

Well, as much as possible. Which is not much, agreed.

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well, as much as possible. Which is not much, agreed.

And with the coming update you will be able to get it without even entering Fractals at all. So that would no longer be a "problem".

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

You can't get full ascended/infused gear without doing fractals. And you can't max out your stats without that.

Well, unless you get legendaries in every slot, but is that even possible?

Yes but what content forces you to have ascended armor, what content can you not acces before you have ascended gear?

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

And with the coming update you will be able to get it without even entering Fractals at all. So that would no longer be a "problem".

Let's see how that system will work before we say anything about it. I don't think that ANet will make it easier to get asc/inf outside of fractals than inside it, thus not nullifying the gating. If they do make it easier (possibly including, less boring), then you are right. We'll see.

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Yes but what content forces you to have ascended armor, what content can you not acces before you have ascended gear?

All content. Of course, you don't need to have even exotic or rare gear to do any content in the game. I guess that theoretically, you can complete the storyline and pretty much all content wielding level 60 weapons and no armor at all.
That is beside the point. Having max stats is not. Hell, even if the gear was purely cosmetic, it would still be desirable.

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

All content. Of course, you don't need to have even exotic or rare gear to do any content in the game. I guess that theoretically, you can complete the storyline and pretty much all content wielding level 60 weapons and no armor at all.
That is beside the point. Having max stats is not. Hell, even if the gear was purely cosmetic, it would still be desirable.

There you say it, desirable! It isn't needed for anything.
Thus there is no gating, it is people their own choice if they want to grind for it or not.

[raspberry jam]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

There you say it, desirable! It isn't needed for anything.
Thus there is no gating, it is people their own choice if they want to grind for it or not.

But everything is optional. Completing a game is optional. Playing gated content is optional. It's desirable (you desire to have fun, for example), that's why you do it.

Gating has nothing to do with something being optional.

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

But everything is optional. Completing a game is optional. Playing gated content is optional. It's desirable (you desire to have fun, for example), that's why you do it.

Gating has nothing to do with something being optional.

Yes it has.
In other games I'm forced to do content I do not want or like, to get to the next piece of content.
While in GW2 this is not apparent so strong.
Ofcourse there is still the progression from an RPG, but there isn't the real gating I was so used from other MMO's.

[raspberry jam]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yes it has.
In other games I'm forced to do content I do not want or like, to get to the next piece of content.
While in GW2 this is not apparent so strong.
Ofcourse there is still the progression from an RPG, but there isn't the real gating I was so used from other MMO's.

It's optional to do that next piece of content. You pass the gate because you want to.

In GW2 you are forced to do FotM to get asc/inf gear. It's the same thing.

[Lordkrall]

But one could argue that nothing is actually gated behind that gear.

[sanctuaire]

perhaps this would actually wake anet up to the reality
of the sheer class imbalances in high dungeon pve.

.

[Gilles VI]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

It's optional to do that next piece of content. You pass the gate because you want to.

In GW2 you are forced to do FotM to get asc/inf gear. It's the same thing.

But there is nothing to be gain with that armor?
You can do everything already without the armor.

While in other MMO's I need to do raid1 for tier1 gear, just so I can progress to raid2 for tier2 gear,...
Because of this system I am forced to grind tier1-2-... if I want to do raidx..

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

But one could argue that nothing is actually gated behind that gear.

One has already argued that. Read the thread will ya.

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

But there is nothing to be gain with that armor?
You can do everything already without the armor.

While in other MMO's I need to do raid1 for tier1 gear, just so I can progress to raid2 for tier2 gear,...
Because of this system I am forced to grind tier1-2-... if I want to do raidx..

We've already been there. You don't need any armor at all, and you need shitty level 60 or something weapons. That is all you need to finish the entire game. In theory.

But max stats is always desirable. When winning is the default - and it is in most cases in GW2 - then winning in itself becomes worthless, and instead winning as efficiently as possible becomes the thing to aim for. That is why max stats is desirable.

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

One has already argued that. Read the thread will ya.

Indeed, but as far as I remember, you never gave a concrete answer.

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Indeed, but as far as I remember, you never gave a concrete answer.

Are you seriously holding me responsible for your bad memory? Perhaps you work for ANet.

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Are you seriously holding me responsible for your bad memory? Perhaps you work for ANet.

So, feel free to copy your answer, doubt it would take you more than 5 minutes, if it actually exists.

[raspberry jam]

Lordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

So, feel free to copy your answer, doubt it would take you more than 5 minutes, if it actually exists.

I'm feeling completely free. Thank you.

I felt free before you posted that as well. Still, thank you for reminding me that I can cut and paste things that I already posted.

So yeah if you feel like participating in the discussion please go ahead and read the thread first.

[Lordkrall]

raspberry jam, on 21 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'm feeling completely free. Thank you.

I felt free before you posted that as well. Still, thank you for reminding me that I can cut and paste things that I already posted.

So yeah if you feel like participating in the discussion please go ahead and read the thread first.

I have, several times, and yet I have still to find a single concrete answer about what is gated behind Ascended gear. So please, point it out.