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Cosmetic Reward is not the best carrot for an MMO


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#31 Shiren

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

I think you are confusing playing for a longer period of time with the concept of more content. One of the quotes Colin came up with about GW2 sums it up really well.

“…what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible?”

When ascended gear was introduced, it was framed as a solution to a problem I didn't even know existed - appearently we were getting out max stat characters too quickly. Appearently we were dont with that part of the content too soon. We hadn't run TA enough times. How many runs is it for a full set of armour? A lot more than three (the number of unique paths which reward tokens, after that you are grinding content you've already completed). How many hours did you farm orihalcum and scales to craft your armour (never mind level up your crafting profession in the first place)? Appearently not enough according to Linsey Murdock. People had completed the content they wanted to complete and were preparing to move on until the game created more content. Previously the impression they gave was GW2 had a business model which didn't encourage them to create mechanics to keep people playing for as long as possible, now ArenaNet has turned around and decided they needed more gear tiers to have people playing for as long as possible.

They created the content they created. People played what they wanted to play and once they finished building their characters they were prepared to move on. This is a problem to ArenaNet. To me it's not a problem if people have the best stat gear easily. They can feel they've completed their character and are able to compete equally in all the content that would use that gear. I don't see the problem. Chasing cosmetics gives those who are done with that journey an additional goal to work towards. It has no gameplay impacting effects so it's not going to be for everyone (and it certainly seems to be working for a lot of people). I saw no problem with people being done with the game for a while, not needing a carrot to keep them playing all the time. Appearently ArenaNet now does.

#32 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostThe Comfy Chair, on 17 January 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Nope, it's not objectively bad. You can't argue that point without looking supremely silly, so don't bother.

I was referring to this:

View PostThe Comfy Chair, on 16 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

If a game *needs* a carrot as it's only form of enjoyment, it's a bad game.

GW2 initially had cosmetic carrots (which means it had carrots from the start, clearly going with the idea that the game itself will not keep the population interested) and then after players ate them all, or simply didn't want to eat them, they added an even worse kind of carrot - power carrots.
I mean, the only reason why we got ascended gear was for the carrot factor.

Personally, I don't think that carrot-based games are bad games. I do believe that they aren't as good as they could have been, though. And with GW2 being a carrot-based game, I don't think it's as good as it could have been.

Edited by Protoss, 17 January 2013 - 02:30 PM.


#33 Arquenya

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

View PostProtoss, on 17 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

GW2 initially had cosmetic carrots (which means it had carrots from the start, clearly banking on the idea that the game itself will not keep the population interested) and then after players ate them all, or simply didn't want to eat them, they added an even worse kind of carrots - power carrots.
I mean, the only reason why we got ascended gear was for the carrot factor.
Indeed.

One of the things I never understood in GW2 was the easy way of getting stuff. Dungeons were supposed to be "tough and challenging" and I expected it to actually mean something if people would have dungeon gear.

Instead it turned out to be that it's mostly short dungeons with waypoints inside resulting in 15-30 minute speedruns to get whatever you want. As a consequence there's no "prestige" armour (except T3, and that's just a money accomplishment, and Arah) and people have gone through all the content extremely quickly.

If ANet had done these dungeons in a FoW/UW kind of way we would have had a LOT of endgame content and subsequent prestige armours. Instead people don't even do them for armour anymore and run dungeons for easy money and there's no sense of accomplishent at all in completing them.

Edited by Arquenya, 17 January 2013 - 02:38 PM.


#34 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 17 January 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Unfortunately, yes, the former.

It's unrealistic and outright silly to believe that the limitations placed upon players by the game have no bearing on their psyche, and subsequently, their actions.

A game where the dynamic and meaningful content ends upon completion of the endgame dungeons leads players to seek alternate forms of replayability, hence the gear grind and the endless fotm running (even for the challenge of high level fotm).

The self-achievement aspect of grinding fractals has been compared by some people to attaining personal bests in things like golf or team sports. I tend to disagree because the latter involves thousands and thousands more variables and infinitely more social reaction and reward.

And the question is which limitation is the game putting on players thats forcing them in FoTM?

why is FoTM the only meaningful content? what makes it meaningful compared with say exploring another 30-40 level zone?

I am asking because to me these are entirely personal choices. Its not the game that makes FoTM meaningful, its the player that makes this their personal goal (and not saying there is anything wrong with that just that the game leaves you free to play the content you desire).

#35 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:46 PM

View PostShiren, on 17 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I think you are confusing playing for a longer period of time with the concept of more content. One of the quotes Colin came up with about GW2 sums it up really well.

“…what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible?”

When ascended gear was introduced, it was framed as a solution to a problem I didn't even know existed - appearently we were getting out max stat characters too quickly. Appearently we were dont with that part of the content too soon. We hadn't run TA enough times. How many runs is it for a full set of armour? A lot more than three (the number of unique paths which reward tokens, after that you are grinding content you've already completed). How many hours did you farm orihalcum and scales to craft your armour (never mind level up your crafting profession in the first place)? Appearently not enough according to Linsey Murdock. People had completed the content they wanted to complete and were preparing to move on until the game created more content. Previously the impression they gave was GW2 had a business model which didn't encourage them to create mechanics to keep people playing for as long as possible, now ArenaNet has turned around and decided they needed more gear tiers to have people playing for as long as possible.

They created the content they created. People played what they wanted to play and once they finished building their characters they were prepared to move on. This is a problem to ArenaNet. To me it's not a problem if people have the best stat gear easily. They can feel they've completed their character and are able to compete equally in all the content that would use that gear. I don't see the problem. Chasing cosmetics gives those who are done with that journey an additional goal to work towards. It has no gameplay impacting effects so it's not going to be for everyone (and it certainly seems to be working for a lot of people). I saw no problem with people being done with the game for a while, not needing a carrot to keep them playing all the time. Appearently ArenaNet now does.

You're close to the problem in my opinion but I think its slightly different. The problem was not that players got to the end too fast. The problem was not that they geared up too quickly. The problem was players who dont find anything meaningful if its not getting the best gear or the best rewards. In my opinion Arenanet intended people to play content all over the game world and instead the bulk of players settled in Orr where they were getting the largest rewards. Another set of players simply quit seeing no value in aquiring gear thats not statistically better.

FoTM was the solution to both this problems while not antagonizing the playstyle you mention. Players who will not settle for a lesser reward which make up a large number itseems are a big big problem. If anet simply made a new zone with better rewards these players would flock there, arenanet would have to keep investing all its development power in keeping that content added while the rest of the open world would suffer. Like this they get an area that artificaially keeps them a bit at bay from the best reward by using a gear based barrier that requires a long time to aquire giving them breathing room so to speak. At the same time people who didnt care about better gear can just continue playing in the open world without any negative impact what so ever and people who wanted better gear have it as well.

#36 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

View PostProtoss, on 17 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I was referring to this:



GW2 initially had cosmetic carrots (which means it had carrots from the start, clearly going with the idea that the game itself will not keep the population interested) and then after players ate them all, or simply didn't want to eat them, they added an even worse kind of carrot - power carrots.
I mean, the only reason why we got ascended gear was for the carrot factor.

Personally, I don't think that carrot-based games are bad games. I do believe that they aren't as good as they could have been, though. And with GW2 being a carrot-based game, I don't think it's as good as it could have been.

Every game needs carrots, I mean people complain that gw2 has bad rewards imagine a game that rewards you absolutely nothing. No XP, no gear, no money nothing... Dont see it working unfortunately.

So the best thing you can do is provide multiple carrots and allow people to choose which carrot they want. You want your power carrot you can have them(which wasnt introduced with ascended gear exotic was better then common so you could consider that a carrot) it isnt something exclusive to gw2 either, gw1 you had better gear as well so well you had power carrots there as well not to mention that there were plenty of skills you could get to design even better builds (power carrots too)

you want cosmetic carrots go for that no problem
you want story carrots, theres that too

you just dont want to accept it but ignoring ascended gear is completely okey. Even ignoring exotic gear is completely okey. Dont mix carrot choices with being forced to pursuit one particular carrot its entirely different.

View PostArquenya, on 17 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Indeed.

One of the things I never understood in GW2 was the easy way of getting stuff. Dungeons were supposed to be "tough and challenging" and I expected it to actually mean something if people would have dungeon gear.

Instead it turned out to be that it's mostly short dungeons with waypoints inside resulting in 15-30 minute speedruns to get whatever you want. As a consequence there's no "prestige" armour (except T3, and that's just a money accomplishment, and Arah) and people have gone through all the content extremely quickly.

If ANet had done these dungeons in a FoW/UW kind of way we would have had a LOT of endgame content and subsequent prestige armours. Instead people don't even do them for armour anymore and run dungeons for easy money and there's no sense of accomplishent at all in completing them.

Hmm isnt that what legendaries are for?

#37 Arquenya

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The problem was not that players got to the end too fast. The problem was not that they geared up too quickly. The problem was players who dont find anything meaningful if its not getting the best gear or the best rewards. In my opinion Arenanet intended people to play content all over the game world and instead the bulk of players settled in Orr where they were getting the largest rewards. Another set of players simply quit seeing no value in aquiring gear thats not statistically better.
I don't think you're completely right, either.

I think people want to have appealing goals to accomplish. For you it may be discovering every single corner of the map. Which is fine, but not for the majority of the playerbase. It doesn't have to be stat or gear related, it can be prestige armours, houses, titles, being "the best" at something, whatever.

In GW2 there just isn't a lot of that around. Acquiring "best" gear is a laugh for the average player and as I posted, dungeon gear is extremely easy to acquire, so the goal can't lie there either. We don't have a FoW like set, nor elite skills to capture and 1,000s of build to try out. There's no tough and rewarding content that really requires good teamwork. There's no GvG and HoH to open up areas nor arena master titles (afaik).

There's only FoTM and legendaries (and some tick off lists) to strive for, if it appeals to you. And that's not a lot.
At least not for me - as I think all the current legendaries are very ugly (as I don't like glowing, bulky and spikey stuff).

Edited by Arquenya, 17 January 2013 - 03:15 PM.


#38 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:21 PM

View PostArquenya, on 17 January 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

I think people want to have appealing goals to accomplish.

I think the problem here is that A.Net decided to remove power out of the list of accomplishments by implementing a power plateau, and then they failed to find an alternative. And then they panicked (in GW2 AND in GW1!) and simply reinstated power because that's the easiest content/accomplishment to create.

#39 happydale

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

You're close to the problem in my opinion but I think its slightly different. The problem was not that players got to the end too fast. The problem was not that they geared up too quickly. The problem was players who don't find anything meaningful...

This is exactly this issue.  Do I have something meaningful to do still in GW2?  If not people will go to a different game.  I like the idea of skin only carrots, but in the end for me it's not enough motivation most of the time.  I ask myself am I willing to put X amount of time / investment to achieve something that only looks different?  Most of the time my answer is no.  I know for some though the answer is yes.  I also agree with what others have posted that there needs to be a lot more skin options, and dungeons like FoW / UW.

I have a love / hate relationship with a gear tread mill (stat progression)  I know that it is an illusion that to increase my stats by X to fight a new boss that has been increased Y, and on and on we go..But this is where I like it, in PVP.  This is my motivation to grind gear with higher stats, to compete in PVP.  I like in GW2 that there are 2 different types. sPvP - I know here that all stats are capped, and it comes down to individual and team skill.  But I really like the difference in WvW.  (I'm coming from Knight Online, where gear was a huge factor in success)  This in turn is a greater motivation to keep playing, to have the best gear for WvW.

In the end I know a lot of people don't like that.  It does come down to a few things and fundamentally to the basic question of "what is my motivation, and is it worth it?"

In my opinion there needs to be more skins (especially armor), harder content, ie: dungeons like FoW / UW, and to continue to develop FoTM., and Leader rankings in dungeons, WvW and other things that will make more competition

I love that GW2 is casual friendly, but I am also starting to hate this concept.  There needs to be more competition, again something that will motivate people to keep playing...to be the best.  This is what I feel is at the core of most players.  They want to be recognized for their achievements.  Either through a specific skin, title, or ranking.  Competition...and to distinguish myself from others...

Needless to say I'm really interested in the next few months and the changes that they are going to make.

#40 G Rover

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

I feel cosmetics are great for GW2. People need to stop comparing it to other games and play it how it is. Nobody wants to grind for gear. GW is unique in the fact in has a fast level cap. GW1 and GW2. So not much level grind. You can get max tier gear pretty quickly just by playing the karma. Either it be from crafting or Karma. So no terrible gear grind. great so now the game can be fun for all players on equal grounds. BTW cosmetics is one of the highest priorities in ANY MMO. So now everybody in the game can have fun and dres how they like without losing stats.

"I don't want it because it's ugly." really means "I wish i could afford that."

Edited by G Rover, 17 January 2013 - 03:25 PM.


#41 XPhiler

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostArquenya, on 17 January 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

I don't think you're completely right, either.

I think people want to have appealing goals to accomplish. For you it may be discovering every single corner of the map. Which is fine, but not for the majority of the playerbase. It doesn't have to be stat or gear related, it can be prestige armours, houses, titles, being "the best" at something, whatever.

In GW2 there just isn't a lot of that around. Acquiring "best" gear is a laugh for the average player and as I posted, dungeon gear is extremely easy to acquire, so the goal can't lie there either. We don't have a FoW like set, nor elite skills to capture and 1,000s of build to try out. There's no tough and rewarding content that really requires good teamwork. There's no GvG and HoH to open up areas nor arena master titles (afaik).

There's only FoTM and legendaries (and some tick off lists) to strive for, if it appeals to you. And that's not a lot.
At least not for me - as I think all the current legendaries are very ugly (as I don't like glowing, bulky and spikey stuff).

Thing is there is a lot of stuff to strive for (though not enough I do agree we could use some harder to aquire armor set). Like you said people like different things, I like checking out corners, you like prestige armor others dont care about any of that and just want better gear. Titles there are a few, even sPvP and WvW titles, there is a ton of achievements, armor sets and legendaries. Named exotics some of which like final rest we have yet to discover how to get even nearly 6 months into the game. But yes definitely the need to add more and I am sure they will.

#42 The Comfy Chair

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

Theres a lot of stuff to do in gw2 that definitely is not carrot chasing. The problem is whether or not it appeals to you. If it doesn't, then that isn't necessarily the games problem. No game will appeal to everyone :)

For me personally, i (sometimes literally) love to walk around the open world and really explore, not just hunt down icons on a map, and it's  great. I dabble in pretty much every other area and have racked up nearly 600 hours. The game as plenty of things I want to do, and I've enjoyed it.

So its not a matter of the game not having anything to do, its a matter of you not liking what there is. Which is fine, but you can't walk around claiming doom and gloom because of your opinion. Definitely don't mistake it for the majority either! Most forums are the mos eisley of the games community, so it's always negative :)

I agree that there could be more for non explorers, conpletionists, and WvW, but the game is 4 months old. How long is your own playtime in that short period? If it's over 200 hours and you can't be classed as an explorer ect. Then it's no wonder you feel like you're running out of things to do considering how gw2 doesn't aggresively gate content behind a slow levelling curve :D

Edited by The Comfy Chair, 17 January 2013 - 04:40 PM.

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#43 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostThe Comfy Chair, on 17 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Theres a lot of stuff to do in gw2 that definitely is not carrot chasing. The problem is whether or not it appeals to you. If it doesn't, then that isn't necessarily the games problem. No game will appeal to everyone :)

List a few games that are ONLY about carrot chasing in that case.
Carrot chasing is the game that A.Net is promoting, with users being given the option to play against that plan. I do not know of a single game where players would not be given this option.
For instance, D3 is one hell of a power carrot game. Yet, I refuse to play it that way, which means that the game isn't only about carrot chasing. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a power carrot game.

#44 Shiren

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

You're close to the problem in my opinion but I think its slightly different. The problem was not that players got to the end too fast. The problem was not that they geared up too quickly. The problem was players who dont find anything meaningful if its not getting the best gear or the best rewards. In my opinion Arenanet intended people to play content all over the game world and instead the bulk of players settled in Orr where they were getting the largest rewards. Another set of players simply quit seeing no value in aquiring gear thats not statistically better.

FoTM was the solution to both this problems while not antagonizing the playstyle you mention. Players who will not settle for a lesser reward which make up a large number itseems are a big big problem. If anet simply made a new zone with better rewards these players would flock there, arenanet would have to keep investing all its development power in keeping that content added while the rest of the open world would suffer. Like this they get an area that artificaially keeps them a bit at bay from the best reward by using a gear based barrier that requires a long time to aquire giving them breathing room so to speak. At the same time people who didnt care about better gear can just continue playing in the open world without any negative impact what so ever and people who wanted better gear have it as well.

There is no "problem", just a decision for ArenaNet to make. Is it OK to have a game where players can complete the content and be satisfied with that experience and move on until there is more content to complete? Is it OK to have a low ceiling on when best in slot is obtained to allow players to satisfactorily experience all content without being concerned over farming stats instead of focusing on experience content they want to experience? ArenaNet made their decision, they chose to run the endless treadmill themselves - pumping out more gear to give an artificial appearance of content. For the people who have been trained to think grinding for gear = content, this is more of the same. For those of us who aren't brainwashed into MMO thinking and know the difference between a gear grind and content, ascended gear added nothing to the game and becomes another obstacle to obtaining best in slot before we can "complete" our characters and focus on cosmetics or finishing all dungeon paths/map completion/WvW. It's a distraction, a delay from the content most of us wish to experience.

FotM did not solve any problems. It's the soul sorce of the best gear in the game focusing anyone who wants it into one dungeon which becomes incredibly repetitive. People who don't want to play in FotM are forced to if they want the best in slot (people who don't want a gear grind often still want best in slot). FotM solved no problems, it introduces new ones and it distracts ArenaNet from creating an MMO that doesn't design towards keeping people occupied for as long as possible. It distracts ArenaNet from creating content, instead of creating gear grinds. Cosmetics vs stats, it didn't matter which was the grind at the end of the game - the real content was always going to be the same, at least cosmetics are easy to ignore, stats feel mandatory unless you can accept underperforming.

Edited by Shiren, 17 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#45 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 17 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

And the question is which limitation is the game putting on players thats forcing them in FoTM?

why is FoTM the only meaningful content? what makes it meaningful compared with say exploring another 30-40 level zone?

I am asking because to me these are entirely personal choices. Its not the game that makes FoTM meaningful, its the player that makes this their personal goal (and not saying there is anything wrong with that just that the game leaves you free to play the content you desire).

FotM is not inherently meaningful. When you have roughly explored the entire GW2 world, completed the quests once, there is no reason to go back. Zones are empty, providing precious little social interaction.

At this point, dungeons and the gear grind they provide become the only meaningful content outside of a strong guild setting. This is simply the carrot we've been talking about and is nothing more than hollow item acquisition. It's empty.

#46 The Comfy Chair

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostProtoss, on 17 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

List a few games that are ONLY about carrot chasing in that case.
Carrot chasing is the game that A.Net is promoting, with users being given the option to play against that plan. I do not know of a single game where players would not be given this option.
For instance, D3 is one hell of a power carrot game. Yet, I refuse to play it that way, which means that the game isn't only about carrot chasing. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a power carrot game.

There are very, very few that are pure carrot chasing. A few facebook games which kind of come close, but that's more forcing the player in RTM transactions in many cases (you need to do this to get your carrot, but oh wait, you have to wait an arbitrary number of time, unless you PAY! Oh, and did we say you can't do anything until the time elapses? *dangles shiny carrot* - double fine's latest game committed this crime). A pure carrot game barely surfaces beyond the social/casual gaming world, since it would get shot down in pre-production as being a waste of a developers time and publisher money.

Even the grindiest of MMO's aren't entirely carrot based, combat is at least more engaging that one click and waiting patiently for your carrot. Also, the group combat mechanics (even the 'old' trinity) has a layer of complexity which elevates them far above a pure carrot game.

This game has a reward system that isn't necessary to progress*, but is instead mostly cosmetic**, so the game isn't based on carrots, it has carrots for people who want them. It's not a carrot dangled on a string ahead of the player, it's a carrot in a store the player can buy after earning some money/tokens in the world.

For a anecdotal example, i'm going to get bifrost eventually, but it's not a driving motivation for me to play a game. I don't need it to progress in any way, it's just something i can buy at a point in the future that'd be nice to have. A carrot game would mean that there's is significant need to get that item. When in reality, the item is just a shiny ribbon to say 'i have earned X much money in this game so far'. So it's not a carrot game, it's a game with carrots.

*Ascended infusions are a quasi-exception, but it's a pretty bad carrot system considering it only affects the aspect of the game it also drops very frequently from as a true carrot system would make it very arduous. Now if it was much more rare to get the rings and infusions, then that would be moving into carrot territory, but that's one subsection of one aspect of the game. This is what happens in WoW raids.

**Rare -> exotic -> ascended gear differences are for the most part not very important at all, even in WvW. They just aren't, if you're a better player, you'll easily shake off the minor damage and armor advantage of rare versus exotic.

Edited by The Comfy Chair, 17 January 2013 - 06:33 PM.

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#47 Fizzypop

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

the reason they don't work is because they were put in poorly. They need to stop punishing people who want to have more than one set on a character. This means changing how transmutation works and of course finding a way to store some sets. Along with that they need to introduce a lot more armor and different ways for it to be obtained. I'm thinking like profession and zone specific sets. Take some of the nice looking town clothing and turn it into armor.

#48 Gileas898

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:40 PM

The real problem is that there are no cosmetic rewards that actually make a statement.

- Got a dungeon armor? You could just have WP-zerged it or exploited, or even bought your way to those tokens.

- Tier 3 cultural? You could have bought gold for real money.

- Legendary? Nothing legendary about this except the amount of grind required to obtain one, and the RNG luck factor associated with it. Either that or you just bought it with real money, same as T3.

Cosmetic rewards is not about having a cool-ass armor, it's about what achievement you have to perform to attain that armor. Currently in GW2 there is nothing at all that is challenging, and thus, the cosmetic armor as progression can never work. Really, the only cosmetics I would actually be impressed by in GW2 is if someone would have a full set of Fractal weapons, but again that comes down to RNG as well.

Cosmetic progression does not lie in the cosmetics itself, it lies in what message those cosmetics convey.

#49 Cobalt60

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostGileas898, on 17 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

The real problem is that there are no cosmetic rewards that actually make a statement.

- Got a dungeon armor? You could just have WP-zerged it or exploited, or even bought your way to those tokens.

- Tier 3 cultural? You could have bought gold for real money.

- Legendary? Nothing legendary about this except the amount of grind required to obtain one, and the RNG luck factor associated with it. Either that or you just bought it with real money, same as T3.

Cosmetic rewards is not about having a cool-ass armor, it's about what achievement you have to perform to attain that armor. Currently in GW2 there is nothing at all that is challenging, and thus, the cosmetic armor as progression can never work. Really, the only cosmetics I would actually be impressed by in GW2 is if someone would have a full set of Fractal weapons, but again that comes down to RNG as well.

Cosmetic progression does not lie in the cosmetics itself, it lies in what message those cosmetics convey.

Hahahahaha stop posting.

Why does it matter what you think of other peoples armour or weapons?

#50 Gileas898

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:02 AM

View PostCobalt60, on 17 January 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Hahahahaha stop posting.

Why does it matter what you think of other peoples armour or weapons?

Because being able to show off is what drives today's gamers. You don't have to be a genius to know that.

#51 Humanmind

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

Look the cash shop they add nothing cosmetic,players don"t spend real money for cosmetic things.The GW2 shop is just a diablo3 AH hidden behind a fake cosmetic cash shop.They make a lot of money with that  if a RPG have no carrots players leave until next tiers gear patch and during this time don't spend money in the shop.

#52 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostGileas898, on 17 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

Cosmetic rewards is not about having a cool-ass armor, it's about what achievement you have to perform to attain that armor.

Actually, this was the part I always hated in GW1 - certain pretty wasn't just pretty, it was an achievement and even if you didn't care for the achievement, you still had to pay the price for it being an achievement.
Vanity items in GW games double for simple vanity AND being achievements and I really wish those things were separate - for instance, I always preferred the idea of showcasing achievements though titles. Especially, if they'd also allow us to wear custom titles.

#53 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:50 AM

View PostProtoss, on 17 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

List a few games that are ONLY about carrot chasing in that case.
Carrot chasing is the game that A.Net is promoting, with users being given the option to play against that plan. I do not know of a single game where players would not be given this option.
For instance, D3 is one hell of a power carrot game. Yet, I refuse to play it that way, which means that the game isn't only about carrot chasing. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a power carrot game.

Many MMOs fall in this list actually because content is designed to support 1 carrot - advancement. In Most MMOs there is just enough content to get you to the next level. In nearly every single one (except very few exceptions) When i reach say level 30 I would have played absolutely every single bit of level 1 - 29 content. I cant decide to simply go explore instead of playing level 30 content because to get to level 30 I would have already gone through all of the game content. In many MMOs at higher levels doing all the content isnt even enough to reach the next level and instead you end up having to do repeat quests or simply killing mobs until you get the XP necessary. This is not even taking into consideration that in many MMOs there simply isnt any exploring to do. How many MMOs do you know that have hidden content? That is content that unless you really look hard for it you'll never come across it? Again in many MMOs there isnt enough content to reach the next level and you expect they'll hide some of it so that content wise the game becomes even smaller?

Perhaps even worst then that in Most MMOs once you do a quest you've done it, its gone. so again in most MMOs to reach level 30 you need to do all level 1 - 29 quests which means that all that content is gone. No one is stopping you from revisiting the area if you wish but you have already explored it all, you have already did all there is to do, there are no quests so all you have left is killing mobs that will not reward you in any way or further your progession. So whats there left to do ? compare that with Gw2 now and hopefully you will see that in this aspect they definitely did great things with the design of the game.

#54 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostShiren, on 17 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

There is no "problem", just a decision for ArenaNet to make. Is it OK to have a game where players can complete the content and be satisfied with that experience and move on until there is more content to complete? Is it OK to have a low ceiling on when best in slot is obtained to allow players to satisfactorily experience all content without being concerned over farming stats instead of focusing on experience content they want to experience? ArenaNet made their decision, they chose to run the endless treadmill themselves - pumping out more gear to give an artificial appearance of content. For the people who have been trained to think grinding for gear = content, this is more of the same. For those of us who aren't brainwashed into MMO thinking and know the difference between a gear grind and content, ascended gear added nothing to the game and becomes another obstacle to obtaining best in slot before we can "complete" our characters and focus on cosmetics or finishing all dungeon paths/map completion/WvW. It's a distraction, a delay from the content most of us wish to experience.

FotM did not solve any problems. It's the soul sorce of the best gear in the game focusing anyone who wants it into one dungeon which becomes incredibly repetitive. People who don't want to play in FotM are forced to if they want the best in slot (people who don't want a gear grind often still want best in slot). FotM solved no problems, it introduces new ones and it distracts ArenaNet from creating an MMO that doesn't design towards keeping people occupied for as long as possible. It distracts ArenaNet from creating content, instead of creating gear grinds. Cosmetics vs stats, it didn't matter which was the grind at the end of the game - the real content was always going to be the same, at least cosmetics are easy to ignore, stats feel mandatory unless you can accept underperforming.

I agree with most of what you said, just a few things. Correctly you said that FoTM is designed for people who think gear grind = content. But consider this, people who think gear grind = content will still think gear grind = content irispective if they have a gear grind. So if you dont offer them a gear grind they'll just go around saying there is absolutely nothing to do. If you introduce gear grind in the open world we'll end up with a gear treadmill for everyone because well they'll have to use the agony mechanic in the open world or go for a classic new tier every so often to keep the treadmill going. .  By putting in FoTM however they can give a gear grind to the players that want one and leave players like us who couldnt care less about a treadmill uneffected except for one thing the "need" for best in slot. Here we get two choices either wait for them to fully deploy ascended gear and then we get it using game play meachnics we enjoy or if you really cant wait just do the FoTM. Like I said there is no easy way to provide a balance and the way it was implemented in my opinion is the best way they could have gone about it. I understand that people feel a need to have best in slot, there is nothing the game can do about that but what the game can do and does really well is make sure you dont need to have best in slot to enjoy any of the content and it defenity doesnt since I roam the open world with a MF Rare Set and have no trouble tackling any content.

I am sorry but the problem you're talking about isnt being create by the game but by the players themselves who feel they have to have best in slot gear. They dont. Its all psychological, the same effect you mentioned the "brainwashed into MMO thinking".

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 17 January 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

FotM is not inherently meaningful. When you have roughly explored the entire GW2 world, completed the quests once, there is no reason to go back. Zones are empty, providing precious little social interaction.

At this point, dungeons and the gear grind they provide become the only meaningful content outside of a strong guild setting. This is simply the carrot we've been talking about and is nothing more than hollow item acquisition. It's empty.

I will honestly have to do some exploring in different servers once guesting becomes available cause I can assure you what you're saying is absolutely untrue on pikensquare. Never seen an empty zone.. Ever and I spend most of my time 90%+ in low to mid level zones. I hear people complaining Southsun cove is death but just last week I spend some time there and there were plenty of players there too. All I can tell you is try another server perhaps you're on a server full of hard core players who refuse to play anything apart from the most rewarding content. I would suggest trying one of the unofficial RP servers, roleplayers dont care much for that stuff most of the time.

#55 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostGileas898, on 17 January 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

The real problem is that there are no cosmetic rewards that actually make a statement.

- Got a dungeon armor? You could just have WP-zerged it or exploited, or even bought your way to those tokens.

- Tier 3 cultural? You could have bought gold for real money.

- Legendary? Nothing legendary about this except the amount of grind required to obtain one, and the RNG luck factor associated with it. Either that or you just bought it with real money, same as T3.

Cosmetic rewards is not about having a cool-ass armor, it's about what achievement you have to perform to attain that armor. Currently in GW2 there is nothing at all that is challenging, and thus, the cosmetic armor as progression can never work. Really, the only cosmetics I would actually be impressed by in GW2 is if someone would have a full set of Fractal weapons, but again that comes down to RNG as well.

Cosmetic progression does not lie in the cosmetics itself, it lies in what message those cosmetics convey.

Question using this same logic which game has meaningful cosmetic armor? Gw1 ? couldnt you buy gold from a gold seller and then use that gold to buy the materials you required ?

As for RNG wasnt the same true for Gw1 as well? whats really different here? What made say the vabbi armor set hard to get? the content you had to play to aquire it? hmmm nope nothing challengng there. The "difficulty" in aquiring it was entirely set on the very small drop  rate of diamonds and saphires.

Except of obsidian armor where you have to do play a little hard content (though technically speaking you could pay others to play it for you if we really want to be picky) every other armor set or weapon can be boild down to simply an amount of plat. That money can be aquired by cheating (gold selling) or grinding the easiest of content.

So does that mean Gw1 had no meaningful cosmetic items either? and if not, why is Gw2 any different?

#56 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostHumanmind, on 18 January 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Look the cash shop they add nothing cosmetic,players don"t spend real money for cosmetic things.The GW2 shop is just a diablo3 AH hidden behind a fake cosmetic cash shop.They make a lot of money with that  if a RPG have no carrots players leave until next tiers gear patch and during this time don't spend money in the shop.

Hmm yes they did, halloween + wintersday costumes, Weapon skins, mini pets, other non holiday themed costumes such as the sailors hat, the total make overkit. A better question would be what items did they add to the cash shop that are not cosmetic in nature?

#57 Fenice_86

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

They should just import skins from GW1 and add some unique monsters that random travel from zone to zone and, based on where they are, have a chance to drop some unique items, something like "Nicholas the Traveler style"

PS: gw2 armor's designers sucked so much compared to the ones of gw1

Edited by Fenice_86, 18 January 2013 - 09:40 AM.


#58 escada_assassin

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:55 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Question using this same logic which game has meaningful cosmetic armor? Gw1 ? couldnt you buy gold from a gold seller and then use that gold to buy the materials you required ?

As for RNG wasnt the same true for Gw1 as well? whats really different here? What made say the vabbi armor set hard to get? the content you had to play to aquire it? hmmm nope nothing challengng there. The "difficulty" in aquiring it was entirely set on the very small drop  rate of diamonds and saphires.

Except of obsidian armor where you have to do play a little hard content (though technically speaking you could pay others to play it for you if we really want to be picky) every other armor set or weapon can be boild down to simply an amount of plat. That money can be aquired by cheating (gold selling) or grinding the easiest of content.

So does that mean Gw1 had no meaningful cosmetic items either? and if not, why is Gw2 any different?

I never in 5 years met a GW1 player who got their obsidian armor / VS / BDS / whatever by paying for it with real money. In GW2 I know at least 2 people who spent around 1.000-1.500 dollars to get their fancy gw2 weapons (legendary included).

#59 raspberry jam

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostProtoss, on 17 January 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

GW2 initially had cosmetic carrots (which means it had carrots from the start, clearly going with the idea that the game itself will not keep the population interested) and then after players ate them all, or simply didn't want to eat them, they added an even worse kind of carrot - power carrots.
I mean, the only reason why we got ascended gear was for the carrot factor.

Personally, I don't think that carrot-based games are bad games. I do believe that they aren't as good as they could have been, though. And with GW2 being a carrot-based game, I don't think it's as good as it could have been.
Well, actually, GW2 started off having power carrots. Why would there be 80 levels, multiple named gear tiers, 400 crafting levels and what not? Those things are carrots.

#60 escada_assassin

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 18 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Well, actually, GW2 started off having power carrots. Why would there be 80 levels, multiple named gear tiers, 400 crafting levels and what not? Those things are carrots.
You calling me a wabbit? XD




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