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Cosmetic Reward is not the best carrot for an MMO


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#61 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:23 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 18 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Well, actually, GW2 started off having power carrots. Why would there be 80 levels, multiple named gear tiers, 400 crafting levels and what not? Those things are carrots.

I was thinking more in the lines of what keeps you playing after you "finish" the game, with cosmetic carrots being the answer to that initially, but given my absolute hate for the mandatory vertical progression in GW2 (80 levels, exotics, ...), I would GLADLY accept your version also. :D

#62 Arquenya

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostThe Comfy Chair, on 17 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Theres a lot of stuff to do in gw2 that definitely is not carrot chasing. The problem is whether or not it appeals to you. If it doesn't, then that isn't necessarily the games problem. No game will appeal to everyone :)
The question, of course, is what you call "definitely isn't carrot chasing" may as well be part of it. Things like world completion by means of tick off lists clearly is part of it. Every tick off list is a "carrot" especially designed to make people do specific things they (often) wouldn't do otherwise.

View PostProtoss, on 18 January 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

I was thinking more in the lines of what keeps you playing after you "finish" the game, with cosmetic carrots being the answer to that initially, but given my absolute hate for the mandatory vertical progression in GW2 (80 levels, exotics, ...), I would GLADLY accept your version also. :D
I always expect/hope a game to exist out of something like:
  • levelling, meant to slowly get to know the class and playstyle and get skills;

  • getting the best equipment and experiment with builds;

  • "master" the class and do the hardest/challenging stuff in the game (for whatever non-stats reward).
It feels natural, like going to school, learning things and in the end, work with it and apply your knowlegde and refine your player skills. Strangely, part 2 and 3 are the same in GW2 and there isn't really a part 3.

Edited by Arquenya, 18 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#63 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

View Postescada_assassin, on 18 January 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I never in 5 years met a GW1 player who got their obsidian armor / VS / BDS / whatever by paying for it with real money. In GW2 I know at least 2 people who spent around 1.000-1.500 dollars to get their fancy gw2 weapons (legendary included).

Wow, make sure you thank them for me for funding the monthly updates next time you meet them.

But in all seriousness I hope you realize that personal experiance doesnt really indicate anything. Gold selling existed in Gw1 but no player would openly advertise they spent money to buy gold cause that could get them banned. In Gw2 people dont have that fear (provided they used the legitimate way of converting real money into gems and then into gold). I never ran into anyone who converted gems into gold in Gw2 but that certainly doesnt mean no one did it. You're proof knowing 2 people who not only did it but did it with enormous amounts of money. Likewise just cause you never heard of anyone buying gold in gw1 doesnt mean it didnt happen. Gold selling existed in gw1 even up till gw2 release at least. gold sellers wouldnt be selling gold if people were not buying and its almost certain that some of that gold made it into armor sets including the obsidian armor.

#64 Arquenya

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:09 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

But in all seriousness I hope you realize that personal experiance doesnt really indicate anything. Gold selling existed in Gw1 but no player would openly advertise they spent money to buy gold cause that could get them banned. In Gw2 people dont have that fear (provided they used the legitimate way of converting real money into gems and then into gold). I never ran into anyone who converted gems into gold in Gw2 but that certainly doesnt mean no one did it.
I also know a few people that spent quite a lot of RL money on gold but they're ashamed of it. Even if it's legitimate, it still feels like cheating to a lot of people. How much respect do you get if you admit you wasted 1,500 euro on something cosmetic?

In EVE it was widely known that a number of millionares spent 100,000s of dollars on the game to buy high level characters, supercarriers and the like and basically bought themselves a piece of 0.0. They even invited their whole corporation (guild) to spent the holiday in California or whatever place they lived.
And apparently, more game companies try to attract that kind of players because it means big business.

The question is if players think that's desirable. And where lies the difference between "legit" gold selling and illegitimate gold selling. In my opinion, it both feels like cheating, thus undesirable. Just as I wouldn't want people to buy extra money for RL cash in monopoly, I don't want it in online games.

#65 Gileas898

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:30 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Question using this same logic which game has meaningful cosmetic armor? Gw1 ? couldnt you buy gold from a gold seller and then use that gold to buy the materials you required ?

As for RNG wasnt the same true for Gw1 as well? whats really different here? What made say the vabbi armor set hard to get? the content you had to play to aquire it? hmmm nope nothing challengng there. The "difficulty" in aquiring it was entirely set on the very small drop  rate of diamonds and saphires.

Except of obsidian armor where you have to do play a little hard content (though technically speaking you could pay others to play it for you if we really want to be picky) every other armor set or weapon can be boild down to simply an amount of plat. That money can be aquired by cheating (gold selling) or grinding the easiest of content.

So does that mean Gw1 had no meaningful cosmetic items either? and if not, why is Gw2 any different?

Paying real money for gold is endorsed by Arena Net in GW2, whereas it was not in GW1. The difference is huge.

And acquiring huge amounts of money in GW1 oftentimes meant you could do something very well, be it powertrading or speedclearing. There is no real hope to obtain Obsidian Armor by just playing through the story line and then doing whatever you feel like doing, unless you play for gross amounts of time. This is different from GW2, where performing the most mundane, easy and boring tasks is often just as good in terms of making money as being extremely good at clearing dungeons with a highly coordinated team.

Playing through the story line of one campaign in GW1 would net you what? 20k or so? You could easily make multitudes of that in an hour if you were a skilled speed clearer for example.

Edited by Gileas898, 18 January 2013 - 11:32 AM.


#66 syrin

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:30 AM

I personally don't mind having the carrot cosmetic, I just wish there was more to choose from. I mean there are really only a few end of game gear designs and ifmyou don't like their look your out of luck. Also makes it so generally everyone looks alike except for dye colors. I mean I spent a ton of money on my elementalist to get the named exotic set just because it was the only non-skimpy and only one Imhadn't seen a ton of.

#67 Arquenya

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

View Postsyrin, on 18 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I personally don't mind having the carrot cosmetic, I just wish there was more to choose from. I mean there are really only a few end of game gear designs and ifmyou don't like their look your out of luck. Also makes it so generally everyone looks alike except for dye colors. I mean I spent a ton of money on my elementalist to get the named exotic set just because it was the only non-skimpy and only one Imhadn't seen a ton of.
Just curious: which named exotic set do you mean?

#68 syrin

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

Each tier, light medium and heavy has several 80 exotic sets with different names of gw1 characters. Even with different names each tier has the same look just different stats. You can find them on guildwars2army under named set. The light set is really nice robe looking that works great for me, also has an interesting blindfold look for a mask that I didn't go for.

#69 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostArquenya, on 18 January 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I also know a few people that spent quite a lot of RL money on gold but they're ashamed of it. Even if it's legitimate, it still feels like cheating to a lot of people. How much respect do you get if you admit you wasted 1,500 euro on something cosmetic?

In EVE it was widely known that a number of millionares spent 100,000s of dollars on the game to buy high level characters, supercarriers and the like and basically bought themselves a piece of 0.0. They even invited their whole corporation (guild) to spent the holiday in California or whatever place they lived.
And apparently, more game companies try to attract that kind of players because it means big business.

The question is if players think that's desirable. And where lies the difference between "legit" gold selling and illegitimate gold selling. In my opinion, it both feels like cheating, thus undesirable. Just as I wouldn't want people to buy extra money for RL cash in monopoly, I don't want it in online games.

It isnt legit and I would never dream of doing it. What would be the pride of achiving a legendary if all it took was taking out your credit card. Games cant do anything to prevent it though. The only thing they can do is make sure its so expensive it becomes unfeasable but you'll always have people with deep pockets. No providing any sort of RMT will not solve this problem because if your game is even marginally popular you'll always get gold sellers.

I have no doubt thought that the majority of the people will not spend $1500  to buy a legendary so just cause a few people did it I wouldnt consider legendary weapons to be meaningless cause they can be just easily bought.For most it will still have involved a gaigantic effort and years of playtime.

#70 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

View PostGileas898, on 18 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Paying real money for gold is endorsed by Arena Net in GW2, whereas it was not in GW1. The difference is huge.

And acquiring huge amounts of money in GW1 oftentimes meant you could do something very well, be it powertrading or speedclearing. There is no real hope to obtain Obsidian Armor by just playing through the story line and then doing whatever you feel like doing, unless you play for gross amounts of time. This is different from GW2, where performing the most mundane, easy and boring tasks is often just as good in terms of making money as being extremely good at clearing dungeons with a highly coordinated team.

Playing through the story line of one campaign in GW1 would net you what? 20k or so? You could easily make multitudes of that in an hour if you were a skilled speed clearer for example.

is it really a huge difference? With endorsed RMT, buying your self an advantage is much more expensive then using gold sellers and thus will deter some people because of that. On the other hand some people might be afraid to use gold sellers but will use a legitimate way to convert money into ingame currency. They both have their cons and pros I think in the end it just balances itself out and at least makes it controlable and reduces the negative effects of the black market gold trading, Risking credit card details, hackings, botting etc...

Are you really so sure? The mission Auspicious Beginnings takes 5 minutes to complete and rewards you 2 - 3 plat per run. thats a glob of ecto every 2 - 3 runs which means an ecto every 15 mins. Which means you can sort out the ectos farming that mission for 30 hours. Another 9 hours to earn the 75 plat required for the crafting. Dont remember the cost of obsidian shards but well same story. Nothing hard with that mission. And its one of the most profitable things you could do in Gw1. If you're the type who doesnt mind grinding.

I like the fact in Gw2 there isnt a lot of difference in terms of reward depending on what you do. It leaves you free to play the content you enjoy. Why is that a bad thing?

#71 Hexs

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:14 PM

Its a live game, the game will get better. Play any way you want, I look good you dont.

#72 Arquenya

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostHexs, on 18 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Its a live game, the game will get better. Play any way you want, I look good you dont.
That's not really reassuring, imo GW didn't get better over the years.

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

is it really a huge difference? With endorsed RMT, buying your self an advantage is much more expensive then using gold sellers and thus will deter some people because of that. On the other hand some people might be afraid to use gold sellers but will use a legitimate way to convert money into ingame currency. They both have their cons and pros I think in the end it just balances itself out and at least makes it controlable and reduces the negative effects of the black market gold trading, Risking credit card details, hackings, botting etc...
In my opinion, far less people would engage in transactions with gold sellers than when it's "legit".
If I would ever design a MMORPG, I would never ever have that option available.

Edited by Arquenya, 18 January 2013 - 12:37 PM.


#73 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostArquenya, on 18 January 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I always expect/hope a game to exist out of something like:
  • levelling, meant to slowly get to know the class and playstyle and get skills;
        
  • getting the best equipment and experiment with builds;
        
  • "master" the class and do the hardest/challenging stuff in the game (for whatever non-stats reward).
It feels natural, like going to school, learning things and in the end, work with it and apply your knowlegde and refine your player skills. Strangely, part 2 and 3 are the same in GW2 and there isn't really a part 3.

I loved the Factions approach where Step 1 was pretty much non-existent and the whole game consisted out of Step 2 & 3.

#74 Gileas898

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:54 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

is it really a huge difference? With endorsed RMT, buying your self an advantage is much more expensive then using gold sellers and thus will deter some people because of that. On the other hand some people might be afraid to use gold sellers but will use a legitimate way to convert money into ingame currency. They both have their cons and pros I think in the end it just balances itself out and at least makes it controlable and reduces the negative effects of the black market gold trading, Risking credit card details, hackings, botting etc...

Are you really so sure? The mission Auspicious Beginnings takes 5 minutes to complete and rewards you 2 - 3 plat per run. thats a glob of ecto every 2 - 3 runs which means an ecto every 15 mins. Which means you can sort out the ectos farming that mission for 30 hours. Another 9 hours to earn the 75 plat required for the crafting. Dont remember the cost of obsidian shards but well same story. Nothing hard with that mission. And its one of the most profitable things you could do in Gw1. If you're the type who doesnt mind grinding.

I like the fact in Gw2 there isnt a lot of difference in terms of reward depending on what you do. It leaves you free to play the content you enjoy. Why is that a bad thing?

1) While you could in theory farm that mission 360 times (only to get the ectos), no one would do it for practical reasons. The mission itself was also added very very late in GW1's life.

2) You can still make many more times that money by doing other stuff. It's not at all one of the most profitable things you can do in GW.

3) Credit card fraud / hacking is a lie to sell in the gem store RMT to GW2's population, sorry to tell you. Pretty much all illegitimate RMT is handled through PayPal and account information is never shared. And make no mistake, the amount of people who buy gold for cash is a LOT higher when it's endorsed by the company.

4) It's a bad thing because when you don't have any incentive to improve, the game will quickly grow stale.

#75 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostArquenya, on 18 January 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

That's not really reassuring, imo GW didn't get better over the years.


In my opinion, far less people would engage in transactions with gold sellers than when it's "legit".
If I would ever design a MMORPG, I would never ever have that option available.

Keep in mind here we're not talking converting $10 into 10g to buy an exotic set, there wouldnt much wrong with that, here we're talking about spending $1500 to buy a legendary. Using a gold seller you might be able to buy that legendary for $50 or maybe $100. Are you really sure that people are more likely to buy their legendary using real money if allowed legitimately but at a cost of $1500 then illegitmately for $100? I kinda doubt that.

Take WoW for example. The gold selling market is so big that we hear news where prisons forced convicts to farm gold in 12 hour shifts every day earning astronomical amount. I believe it was something like $1000 pre prisonnor per day.

Gold selling is a multi billion dollar market and when you consider the rate of exchange between real money and virtual money the amount of virtual money traded is litterally astronomical.

#76 Arquenya

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Keep in mind here we're not talking converting $10 into 10g to buy an exotic set, there wouldnt much wrong with that, here we're talking about spending $1500 to buy a legendary. Using a gold seller you might be able to buy that legendary for $50 or maybe $100. Are you really sure that people are more likely to buy their legendary using real money if allowed legitimately but at a cost of $1500 then illegitmately for $100? I kinda doubt that.

Gold selling is a multi billion dollar market and when you consider the rate of exchange between real money and virtual money the amount of virtual money traded is litterally astronomical.
Well basically I'm just saying that the gap between using a gold seller and legitimately buying gold for RL cash is very big for most people. Risking an account ban is quite something, especially if you have invested 1,000s of hours into a game and got very attached to your character(s).

And if game developers want to root out gold sellers they simply have to make more stuff that's not buyable for gold. Like reputation points, karma, tokens. Whatever. Make max 50% of the materials you need for a legendary buyable with gold, for example, instead of trading them on the TP.

Making gold selling legitimate and greatly profit from it isn't the solution at all, imo ..

#77 Hellspawn2323

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

I blame myself for GW2 reward system. I spent many many years arguing how I felt a reward system for cosmetic only items is a fantastic change from power up items that make you feel like you have too play the game.

Turns out I was wrong. I LOVE GW2 cannot stress that enough it has the potential to rival the king of MMO's itself, But very quickly myself and my friends who came from WoW anticipating a change of pace with a more relaxed cosmetic driven game, realized that its hella boring.

I feel myself and people such as myself who were just bored of WoW kept insisting too ANET that a none carrot on the stick gear system cosmetic only is the way the game should be model.
And it seems as though ANET listened too the vocal minority myself included who preeched heavily not only on Guru but almost every MMO site that cosmetic was the right choice.

Id just like too take this oppertunity too not only appologise too ANET but also my fellow GW2 community and the people I rediculed on these forums who tried too warn me that cosmetic rewards will not hold the interesed of most gamers.

Some people may think this isnt a heartfilled post but if you go back to my older posting before GW2 launched youll see I was pro cosmetic rewards. Now I am not, Ive grown as a gamer and a person and understand the need for a real goal something that makes me want too log on and gives me passion and drive too play.

Again Im sorry and I was wrong...

#78 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

View PostGileas898, on 18 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

1) While you could in theory farm that mission 360 times (only to get the ectos), no one would do it for practical reasons. The mission itself was also added very very late in GW1's life.

2) You can still make many more times that money by doing other stuff. It's not at all one of the most profitable things you can do in GW.

3) Credit card fraud / hacking is a lie to sell in the gem store RMT to GW2's population, sorry to tell you. Pretty much all illegitimate RMT is handled through PayPal and account information is never shared. And make no mistake, the amount of people who buy gold for cash is a LOT higher when it's endorsed by the company.

4) It's a bad thing because when you don't have any incentive to improve, the game will quickly grow stale.

1. I didnt say thats what everyone did, I just said its a possibility.

2. What was more profitable consistantly then 3plat per 5 minutes exactly?

3. and you're basing these statments on what exactly? Quick search i found gold sellers that sell using either payment method. And with paypal while you're not risking your credit card details you can still be scamed of your money you cant even dispute the charge because paypal doesnt support refund for virtual items. As for your claim that Legitimate RMT sells more then Illegal RMT, I just dont believe that for a second. Here found that prison gold farmer story: http://www.guardian....et-gaming-scam. It says 300 prisoners were involved selling essentially $300k worth of gold per day! In the article it also says that china estimates 2 billion dollars of virtual currancy were sold in 2008 in china alone. Now keep in mind you buy many many times more virtual currency using these illegitamte services so $1 sold illegitimately has a much higher value then $1 bought legitimetatly.  I think you understimate how many people engage in RMT.

4. why? whats the link between what content you play and the game improving / becoming stale? I'd say its actually exactly the opposite. if people play all over the world then Arenanet can focus on releasing new dynamic events just about everywhere and thus keep evolving the story in every zone. That way the game doesnt become stale on the contrary it keeps evolving as a whole. If on the other hand they keep releasing just new content, new zones, new dungeons that provide much better rewards and thus people flock to them then most people will forget about the open world with the execption of new players and alts and thus there will be no incentive to improve those areas and then you will get stagnation. Just look at nearly every other MMO other there. How many of them ever update their old content ?

#79 XPhiler

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostArquenya, on 18 January 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Well basically I'm just saying that the gap between using a gold seller and legitimately buying gold for RL cash is very big for most people. Risking an account ban is quite something, especially if you have invested 1,000s of hours into a game and got very attached to your character(s).

And if game developers want to root out gold sellers they simply have to make more stuff that's not buyable for gold. Like reputation points, karma, tokens. Whatever. Make max 50% of the materials you need for a legendary buyable with gold, for example, instead of trading them on the TP.

Making gold selling legitimate and greatly profit from it isn't the solution at all, imo ..

That only works on paper in my opinion. You just cant really do it because then you'd kill the economy and all the play styles that depend on it like playing whatever content you enjoy, gathering, crafting, trading etc..  Think about it, if crafting named exotics / legendaries required items that cant be traded for gold then it would mean those 250 ectos you need? well you need to farm 300+ drops of rare items+ And you no longer can do that by playing in say the starter zones because well the rares that drop there are sub level 75 thus they will not refine into ectos. The money you make playing dungeons can no longer be used to buy the ectos so you have to abandon that activity you enjoy.

If you love crafting but hate farming, though luck you can just buy the rare materials and simply mark them up you have to farm them yourself.

its not that simple to solve this problem.

View PostHellspawn2323, on 18 January 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

I blame myself for GW2 reward system. I spent many many years arguing how I felt a reward system for cosmetic only items is a fantastic change from power up items that make you feel like you have too play the game.

Turns out I was wrong. I LOVE GW2 cannot stress that enough it has the potential to rival the king of MMO's itself, But very quickly myself and my friends who came from WoW anticipating a change of pace with a more relaxed cosmetic driven game, realized that its hella boring.

I feel myself and people such as myself who were just bored of WoW kept insisting too ANET that a none carrot on the stick gear system cosmetic only is the way the game should be model.
And it seems as though ANET listened too the vocal minority myself included who preeched heavily not only on Guru but almost every MMO site that cosmetic was the right choice.

Id just like too take this oppertunity too not only appologise too ANET but also my fellow GW2 community and the people I rediculed on these forums who tried too warn me that cosmetic rewards will not hold the interesed of most gamers.

Some people may think this isnt a heartfilled post but if you go back to my older posting before GW2 launched youll see I was pro cosmetic rewards. Now I am not, Ive grown as a gamer and a person and understand the need for a real goal something that makes me want too log on and gives me passion and drive too play.

Again Im sorry and I was wrong...

It depends on the indiviual. Everyone has their own motivation for playing a game. Believe it or not, not everyone really cares about the best gear. Such a goal doesnt interest me for example. In fact I am pretty confident provided the same exact game, I would enjoy it more if it had absolutely no reward at all rather then if it had a mandatory gear treadmill for example. But not everyone is the same. You need to be the type of person who plays the game to enjoy themselves rather then to earn stuff.

#80 Hellspawn2323

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

That only works on paper in my opinion. You just cant really do it because then you'd kill the economy and all the play styles that depend on it like playing whatever content you enjoy, gathering, crafting, trading etc..  Think about it, if crafting named exotics / legendaries required items that cant be traded for gold then it would mean those 250 ectos you need? well you need to farm 300+ drops of rare items+ And you no longer can do that by playing in say the starter zones because well the rares that drop there are sub level 75 thus they will not refine into ectos. The money you make playing dungeons can no longer be used to buy the ectos so you have to abandon that activity you enjoy.

If you love crafting but hate farming, though luck you can just buy the rare materials and simply mark them up you have to farm them yourself.

its not that simple to solve this problem.



It depends on the indiviual. Everyone has their own motivation for playing a game. Believe it or not, not everyone really cares about the best gear. Such a goal doesnt interest me for example. In fact I am pretty confident provided the same exact game, I would enjoy it more if it had absolutely no reward at all rather then if it had a mandatory gear treadmill for example. But not everyone is the same. You need to be the type of person who plays the game to enjoy themselves rather then to earn stuff.

Tried that didnt work...

#81 Calen

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostBlairPhoenix, on 16 January 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Eh, I think the real issue is there simply aren't ENOUGH cosmetic rewards, and there aren't enough interesting different ways to get them. WoW had mini-pets and Mounts, some of which required specific tasks to get them, while GW2 atm really only has gear. I don't feel I need the carrot to be on the stick, but I feel like the carrot ANet is offering atm is a bit skimpy atm.

I feel you.

There needs to be more. And whomever up there, said it worked for GW1 cause of "PvP"... Dude, I didn't do any PvP GW1, EVER. And I thouroughly enough the endgame in GW1. I wanted to get certain weapons, I wanted to get certain armor looks. I wanted to farm. In this game, yes, I want to farm. But I also don't want to hit that DR.

So in other words, GW2, is sadly a gift that keeps on giving. There is too much DR, and too little funny and amazing moments to be had in farming and questing and dungeons to make it worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* GW2, I just wish it... was more. I can't put my finger on it, but there needs to be something done. So i'm looking forward to the changes coming in now, and we'll see.  Atleast the Ascended armor(s) so far, has been  a step in the right direction, though I'm not quite sure sticking it all into one dungeon was the right direction. That said, it's been said to be spread out, so we'll see.

But all those things above, combined with the convoluted economy of GW2 which is a bit hard to get by and get working for you, makes it... I dunno, I can see why people quit the game.

#82 Shiren

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I am sorry but the problem you're talking about isnt being create by the game but by the players themselves who feel they have to have best in slot gear. They dont. Its all psychological, the same effect you mentioned the "brainwashed into MMO thinking".


First of all, ascended gear is more than agony resistance, it's more powerful than exotics, they wouldn't need to introduce agony to the rest of the world to make ascended relevant, extra stats are always going to be relevant.

Guild Wars 2 was built on the idea that being your best, being your most competitive was something players deserve, it's not something that should be reserved for the people willing to grind the hardest. The game was built so that stats matter, gear matters. Best-in-slot directly impacts on your performance, you are able to achieve things you can't achieve with inferior gear. It's not brainwashing, it's not an illusion, it's not some kind of mentality that gamers have built up based on tricks or design which no longer applies, best in slot is directly relevant to performance and limitations. There is nothing comparison between the two, stat increases are very real and they are the core of the design of the game.

You draw fals parallels between wanting best-in-slot and wanting a gear grind of repetition to create the illusion of more content. One is real no matter who you are, the other is something you have been trained to believe.

#83 NerfHerder

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:44 PM

Cosmetic Reward is not the best carrot for an MMO, for some people.

There, fixed the title.

Because it works great for me. GW2 is still my favorite game, but I'm a casual gamer. And, I like other games too. Even with ascended gear, I don't feel left behind. I can keep up in my rare gear with anyone of similar skill level in exotics+.

Exotics and Ascended are enough to keep me and my alts busy for 6 months to a year, depending on how the reward creep goes. The Legendary carrot seems pretty far away. But that's ok because its just cosmetic. Its not like I'll be gated from entering the next expansion. And it seems that we will be getting plenty of content to fill in the gaps. When it comes down to it, enjoyable content is my carrot, not gear.

#84 Bloodtau

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

The best "carrot" for video games is to have fun and entertainment. If you are playing form anything else, then you are in the wrong hobby.

#85 Tenicord

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 19 January 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

The best "carrot" for video games is to have fun and entertainment. If you are playing form anything else, then you are in the wrong hobby.

Not true, at least not for everyone. People have different hobbies for different reasons with different goals in mind.

#86 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostTenicord, on 19 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Not true, at least not for everyone. People have different hobbies for different reasons with different goals in mind.

I feel nothing but sadness and pity for those people.

#87 Maconi

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:53 AM

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 20 January 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I feel nothing but sadness and pity for those people.

And they for you.

It's amazing how perspective/perception works isn't it? ^_^

#88 draxynnic

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

View Postkalendraf, on 16 January 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

My biggest problem with GW2's current cosmetic rewards (specifically armor skins) is that there aren't any of them that I find appealing.  In GW1, there were several armor skins that I found attractive and I put in the necessary work to get all of them that I wanted.  Unfortunately, most of the GW2 armor stylings seem to be intended for those players with a trenchcoat and buttcape fetish, and the tiny number of alternatives don't include any styles I like.

In terms of the "carrot" concept, I'd be perfectly happy to do the work to chase a tasty carrot if there was actually a tasty carrot for me to chase.  Right now, all I'm seeing (and smelling) is an orange piece of rotting vegetable matter hanging on a string, and I have no desire to get any closer to it.
I'd be a little less vehement than this, but it is essentially what I've been experiencing as well - my first scholar to reach 80, for instance, transmuted half of her karma exotic armour to the Hall of Monuments skin because I'm not a fan of skimpy outfits, and most options, especially in exotic, are either skimpy or otherwise not to my taste. On the whole, there's a depressing lack of variety in the armour sets available. It doesn't help that fine transmutation stones are prohibitively priced, putting a barrier against using some of the nicer mid-level skins that are available.

Mind you, my choices in armour in Prophecies also tended towards 'best of a bad lot' - it generally wasn't until a campaign or two after a profession was released that I saw an armour that made me go 'That. That's what I want on this character'. So hopefully the selection will improve over time.
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#89 shiggidyshwa

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostMaconi, on 21 January 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

And they for you.

It's amazing how perspective/perception works isn't it? ^_^

Joke is, ultimately, on them. When they look back on the game five years from now (doubtful as most drop off after obtaining *insert grind object here*), they'll have a fraction of the awesome memories us others had from running the game for the game's sake.

Enjoy your subjectivity.

#90 Gilles VI

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostBloodtau, on 19 January 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

The best "carrot" for video games is to have fun and entertainment. If you are playing form anything else, then you are in the wrong hobby.

For some people fun is doing jumping puzzles, for some it is playing the TP and getting ultra rich, for others it's doing the hardest content, for some it's PvP.

View Postshiggidyshwa, on 21 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Joke is, ultimately, on them. When they look back on the game five years from now (doubtful as most drop off after obtaining *insert grind object here*), they'll have a fraction of the awesome memories us others had from running the game for the game's sake.

Enjoy your subjectivity.

So I like to make money in GW2, I'm good at it, so you say once I reach 2-3k gold I'll get bored and stop? And have no awesome memories?

Well keep on dreaming, different people have different tastes.




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