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#31 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

I suppose this is a good example as to why they should never talk about anything until it is released :) People seems to have a hard time accepting the fact that things don't always turn out the way they want.

#32 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I suppose this is a good example as to why they should never talk about anything until it is released :) People seems to have a hard time accepting the fact that things don't always turn out the way they want.
That depends on the thing.  I still don't like the ascended items, and I still think they made a mistake with that.  But I can live with and completely ignore it.  But guesting is a very important part of the game, especially because of the history of GW.  They had a game which allowed us to play with everybody, no matter where they lived.  From the very start, even.  So, now that company says they will make a new game and they say that everybody can play with everybody else, no matter where they live.  Guesting is a very important thing in this case.  Even two weeks before the game came out, they emphasized that they thought it was important that everybody could play with everybody.  Yet now, a few months later, they say, that not everybody can play with everybody.

Also, if they had said in October that they probably wouldn't be able to get guesting working 100%, and it would go live somewhere early in the new year, people would have gotten a lot more warning and would have had a lot of time to decide what to do.  And guilds wouldn't have invested this heavily in a server yet.  But we didn't get any news, no indication that guesting wouldn't be implemented 100% (even though they must be completely ignoring their fan base if they hadn't noticed the fact that people were really looking forward to playing with people from the other region), no reason to start the discussion between friends and guilds (mostly international ones) to see what you wanted to do.

#33 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

But they thing is: People was shouting about the lack of Guesting. And ArenaNet decided to give us guesting now instead of try for another year to get the cross-region guesting working. Would you rather have them wait with releasing ANY form of guesting (and therefore keeping free transfers which do hurt WvW quite badly) until they could get it 100% the way you wanted?

I would say most people would prefer to have this version of Guesting now instead of waiting a year or so to MAYBE have a cross-region guesting.

#34 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

But they thing is: People was shouting about the lack of Guesting. And ArenaNet decided to give us guesting now instead of try for another year to get the cross-region guesting working. Would you rather have them wait with releasing ANY form of guesting (and therefore keeping free transfers which do hurt WvW quite badly) until they could get it 100% the way you wanted?

I would say most people would prefer to have this version of Guesting now instead of waiting a year or so to MAYBE have a cross-region guesting.

Again, a lack of communication.

yes, I prefer some form of guesting over no guesting at all.  But, where did you find that they will still try to get guesting working for 100%?

Had they said: "Guesting will be coming, you cannot guest across region, but we're thinking about ways to get that working as well as we ran into problems we didn't foresee", there would still have been a backlash (people are people and people love to complain when something isn't working 100%) but it would have been less.

Communication!  Keep us up to date with features that aren't going as smoothly as planned as well!  My manager would be very pissed with me if I only told him my progress if it was working.  Especially when it is not working as planned, will I visit him more often to keep him up to date.  I will also always try to keep the person wanting the change up to date, especially if it's not working as planned.

#35 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:26 AM

I submit that the reason why people wanted guesting so badly was because of the expectation that multi region guesting was going to be in it. Had they been told up front I strongly suspect the answer would have been 'We'd rather wait thanks'

What I suspect happend is that they were given some technical boundaries and some game mechanic restrictions. E.g We are finding linking two datacentres too hard and WvW must come first no matter what. What then happend is that they tried for months to get it work within these constriants and failed. The reason why we we're told is that they didnt want to admit to failure until it was clear they were out of time and project budget.

In situations like this, you need to make choice. Do I change the rules(in this case the easiest one to change is the WvW one) or do I accept the consequences knowing it will badly upset a whole load of customers, divide communities and alienate our fanbase.

To me at least it seems that Anet have been more often than not choosing the latter rather than the former and that is perhaps the greatest shame of all.

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 18 January 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#36 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:29 AM

View PostLady Rhonwyn, on 18 January 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Again, a lack of communication.

yes, I prefer some form of guesting over no guesting at all.  But, where did you find that they will still try to get guesting working for 100%?

Had they said: "Guesting will be coming, you cannot guest across region, but we're thinking about ways to get that working as well as we ran into problems we didn't foresee", there would still have been a backlash (people are people and people love to complain when something isn't working 100%) but it would have been less.

Communication!  Keep us up to date with features that aren't going as smoothly as planned as well!  My manager would be very pissed with me if I only told him my progress if it was working.  Especially when it is not working as planned, will I visit him more often to keep him up to date.  I will also always try to keep the person wanting the change up to date, especially if it's not working as planned.

But seeing as they have never ever, in anyway, said something about cross-region people only have themselves to blame if they assumed it would work cross-region.

Had they clearly stated: "Guesting will work for all servers across all regions" I would understand if people reacted.
Now they never did say that and several of us understood a rather long time ago that it is quite possible that it would not be the case (seeing as you can't join an overflow from another region and so on). I suppose that is because I have experience and knowledge of server building and programming, but for me it does feel quite logical that there could be issues.

Based on the information we got from ArenaNet guesting as it will be on the 28th IS working 100%.

View Postshanaeri rynale, on 18 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I submit that the reason why people wanted guesting so badly was because of the expectation that multi region guesting was going to be in it. Had they been told up front I strongly suspect the answer would have been 'We'd rather wait thanks'

What I suspect happend is that they were given some technical boundaries and some game mechanic restrictions. E.g We are finding linking two datacentres too hard and WvW must come first no matter what. What then happend is that they tried for months to get it work within these constriants and failed. The reason why we we're told is that they didnt want to admit to failure until it was clear they were out of time and project budget.

In situations like this, you need to make choice. Do I change the rules(in this case the easiest one to change is the WvW one) or do I accept the consequences knowing it will badly upset a whole load of customers, divide communities and alienate our fanbase.

To me at least it seems that Anet have been choosing the latter rather than the former and that is perhaps the greatest shame of all.

Interesting enough all these "loads of customers" does look to be the same 10-15 customers in every single thread. And several of those are the same customers that have complained about every single thing since the game was released.

#37 Menehune

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

View PostLady Rhonwyn, on 18 January 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

They start with saying "no matter the continent" and then you expect us to think that doesn't mean cross-region?  Well, in my book, saying "you can play with everybody, no matter the continent" and then continue about guesting as a means to do that, I read that as you can guest anywhere, no matter the continent.

Edit:
oh about the need to have a friend on that world, I didn't care about that when I first read it.  I only want to guest to a world because I want to play with a friend on that world.  I never intended to go there simply to go there...

Sorry if I seem like I'm quibbling, but the quote is "a continent away" which to me, and I would imagine the vast majority of Americans (and don't forget ArenaNet is an American company with mostly American staff thus a more or less America-centric view), is equivalent to "across the continent" and thus means like you're on east coast and friend is on west coast or vice versa. There wasn't any specific mention of *different* continents or intercontinental.

As much as I sympathize with people in groups split between EU and NA, please don't misquote causing misinformation to spread.

#38 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

I think the point is, is that the wording was ambiguous and people took it to mean many different things. This being the case and Areanet must have known how people were reading it issued no clarification until the other day.

Even if they were unsure as to if they could get cross regional guesting working, an update telling people there was an issue would have helped loads. Worst case it does'nt work and people have lots of time to prepare. Best case you look like heroes for fixing it.

#39 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:51 PM

View Postshanaeri rynale, on 18 January 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think the point is, is that the wording was ambiguous and people took it to mean many different things. This being the case and Areanet must have known how people were reading it issued no clarification until the other day.

Even if they were unsure as to if they could get cross regional guesting working, an update telling people there was an issue would have helped loads. Worst case it does'nt work and people have lots of time to prepare. Best case you look like heroes for fixing it.

And why do you think they use that kind of wording?
Simple because people will otherwise state that they lie if they say something very clearly and don't meet that.

What if they did say they would have cross-region guesting and everything went great until a few days before they launched it? People would not say: "Ah, well shit happens" they would say: "OMG ARENANET ARE LIARS AND JUST WANT US TO SPEND MONEY FOR EVERYTHING!!!"

Therefore it is better to not say anything exact until it is actually released.

Edited by Lordkrall, 18 January 2013 - 02:51 PM.


#40 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:10 PM

People would say thay anyway.  The majority would understand and appreciate being told early enough to make contingency plans.

For sure it's one of those decisions (giving bad news) that no company enjoys. However, it's proven time and time again that resetting expectations before hand is far more effective in customer retension and satisfcation than out of the blue revalations.

Why else do companies give profit warnings a few weeks/days before releasing the results. It's to take the sting out of the bad news so they can manage the shareholders etc etc before hand

Or perhaps because it's Anet they should work on a different set of business rules and practices to everyone else :P

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 18 January 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#41 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

How is two weeks notice not enough though?
You still have more than enough time to decide and switch to the server/region you prefer to be on. No matter when they had given these news it would have been "too little time" according to some people. Heck, they could have told is in 2010 that guesting would not be cross-region and people would still whine about how they had "too little time to decide which region to play on".

Clearly most people don't have a problem with it being without cross-region, or else we would have seen a much bigger outrage (as in when they announced "region-lock",)

#42 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Dunno which forums you are looking at, seems to be a fuss on most of them. In any case you can't judge something entirely on volumes of forum posts. You need to look at the content (for example 1 post was on behalf of 1000 players) and actually think about the wider effects.

Small minded "It does'nt affect me, i'm alright" thinking does'nt help anyone. The effects on the bigger picture is what matters. The sad thing is, most people take an insular view of things and then when it's too late simply vote with their feet.

I've yet to meet anyone who can hand on heart say the community as a whole will be better off with region locking than without it. Although I suspect there will always be one :P

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 18 January 2013 - 03:45 PM.


#43 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

Of course there is a fuss. There is a fuss on most forums even if they simply decide to change the color of a charr standing around in Lions Arch.

But the fuss now is much smaller than the fuss we had when we heard about "region-lock" and yet it was a very small group back then who lead that fuss as well.

No one can speak on behalf of even 10 players. Posters speak on behalf of themselves not their whole server (as some seems to think they do). Which make it quite clear that the fuss is quite small and most people probably don't have much problem with the restrictions. (or at least understand why they are there)

#44 Flax

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

View Posthorheristo, on 18 January 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

All I can say is one thing - prepare for massive drop in T5 prices.

And I mean MASSIVE :)

Sure you can't say two things? Like why you think this will happen? :D

#45 Daesu

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

View PostXPhiler, on 18 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Sure but then do you need help from other servers for the open world really? Is your server really that bad ? on mine, pikensquare I never went to any zone without meeting other players along the way and I move around all the time.  If yourserver consist of hardcore players that just refuse to do anything other then max level stuff I would suggest guesting to a server that doesnt care much about that sort of thing. I would suggest you start looking at say tarnished coast.

Most people avoid the tough events.  When I needed to get the skill point in cursed shores that is guarded by a champion eye of zhaitan (http://wiki.guildwar..._the_Risen_King), I asked for help for a long time but nobody on the map replied.  The other problem is Orr temple, sometimes it is difficult to find enough people to clear a particular Orr temple, on my server.

I hope guesting and a LFG tool would help with situations like mine.  It should make it easier for us to find people with common goals and transport them to the same server so that they can play together.

Edited by Daesu, 18 January 2013 - 05:24 PM.


#46 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostMenehune, on 18 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Sorry if I seem like I'm quibbling, but the quote is "a continent away" which to me, and I would imagine the vast majority of Americans (and don't forget ArenaNet is an American company with mostly American staff thus a more or less America-centric view), is equivalent to "across the continent" and thus means like you're on east coast and friend is on west coast or vice versa. There wasn't any specific mention of *different* continents or intercontinental.

As much as I sympathize with people in groups split between EU and NA, please don't misquote causing misinformation to spread.
We're talking here about a company who had a game running for almost 8 years, where they took pride in the fact that that everybody could play together, no matter where they lived in the world.  A company that has at least two main offices, one in NA and one in the EU. Why would I even think they suddenly thought that there was only one continent: the NA continent?

Communication is difficult.  Because if you communicate clear you might scare away customers.  Keep it vague and people will think it will be ok.  And when it's too late, say that it won't be ok...

#47 Menehune

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

View PostLady Rhonwyn, on 21 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

...
Communication is difficult.
...

It surely is, especially when a paraphrase is given as a direct quote and the paraphrase gives an entirely different impression from the actual original statement. A requirement of any constructive discussion is clear understanding of the facts and misleading paraphrases don't contribute to that.

As I said, I do sympathize with people caught in the situation of not being able to guest cross-region. I also agree that ArenaNet could have communicated differently, but would it have really been "better"? Would it have reduced the outcry any? Do you really believe that ArenaNet did this to spite the players, pad their bottom line, or deliberately mislead the players? Do you really believe that ArenaNet didn't even try to find an alternative that would allow cross-region guesting? It really seems that you and some others believe that enabling cross-region guesting between two separate data centers is as simple as flipping a switch and ArenaNet is being spiteful by refusing to flip the switch.

#48 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

View PostMenehune, on 21 January 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

It surely is, especially when a paraphrase is given as a direct quote and the paraphrase gives an entirely different impression from the actual original statement. A requirement of any constructive discussion is clear understanding of the facts and misleading paraphrases don't contribute to that.

As I said, I do sympathize with people caught in the situation of not being able to guest cross-region. I also agree that ArenaNet could have communicated differently, but would it have really been "better"? Would it have reduced the outcry any? Do you really believe that ArenaNet did this to spite the players, pad their bottom line, or deliberately mislead the players? Do you really believe that ArenaNet didn't even try to find an alternative that would allow cross-region guesting? It really seems that you and some others believe that enabling cross-region guesting between two separate data centers is as simple as flipping a switch and ArenaNet is being spiteful by refusing to flip the switch.

Had they said, from the start, that "any server" meant "any server within your region", guilds would have had 6 months to decide what to do.  As it is, guilds (and I'm talking about international guilds, who cross oceans) have 2 weeks to decide what to do.  After 5 months of waiting.  Had our alliance known from the start that guesting wouldn't work cross-region, I think we'd have rebuild our guilds differently.  And not have decided from the start to spread on two servers, one in each region.

#49 Menehune

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostLady Rhonwyn, on 21 January 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Had they said, from the start, that "any server" meant "any server within your region", guilds would have had 6 months to decide what to do.  As it is, guilds (and I'm talking about international guilds, who cross oceans) have 2 weeks to decide what to do.  After 5 months of waiting.  Had our alliance known from the start that guesting wouldn't work cross-region, I think we'd have rebuild our guilds differently.  And not have decided from the start to spread on two servers, one in each region.

Yes, ArenaNet could have said that back when, but don't you, perhaps, think that back then ArenaNet, given their development/test modus operandi, were still investigating/trying/testing/iterating possible solutions to what appear to be seriously high technical hurdles?

Remember the outcry when region locking was mentioned? ArenaNet did find a way to partly mitigate that by having only the login region locked and thereafter allowing transfers inter-region. Not ideal, but it does speak to ArenaNet trying to find a solution or at least a reasonable compromise.

#50 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostMenehune, on 21 January 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Remember the outcry when region locking was mentioned? ArenaNet did find a way to partly mitigate that by having only the login region locked and thereafter allowing transfers inter-region. Not ideal, but it does speak to ArenaNet trying to find a solution or at least a reasonable compromise.

Which just shows that it makes sense to bitch about guesting.

#51 Menehune

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostProtoss, on 21 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Which just shows that it makes sense to bitch about guesting.

Doesn't necessarily follow. ArenaNet could very well have had significant resources devoted to the issue, but had to capitulate this time because the cost of any satisfactory solution would be too high. We don't know what the actual cost in additional hard/software, server load or network traffic would be. It seems probable to me that ArenaNet finds the cost too high. Without knowing details of the system architecture, network topology, server configurations, etc. all we can do is speculate.

In most cases, all bitching does is distract, piss off and demotivate the people that have to do the work. Fortunately ArenaNet devs have the CMs to insulate them from most of that. I know personally that it is disheartening to be bitched at when I'm putting in overtime and working as hard as I can to solve a problem. I've pulled a number of all-nighters after system crashes and it really sucks when I'm tired and bleary eyed trying to concentrate and the senior manager comes into the office in the morning and bitches that the system is not up.

#52 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostMenehune, on 21 January 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Doesn't necessarily follow. ArenaNet could very well have had significant resources devoted to the issue, but had to capitulate this time because the cost of any satisfactory solution would be too high. We don't know what the actual cost in additional hard/software, server load or network traffic would be. It seems probable to me that ArenaNet finds the cost too high. Without knowing details of the system architecture, network topology, server configurations, etc. all we can do is speculate.

In most cases, all bitching does is distract, piss off and demotivate the people that have to do the work. Fortunately ArenaNet devs have the CMs to insulate them from most of that. I know personally that it is disheartening to be bitched at when I'm putting in overtime and working as hard as I can to solve a problem. I've pulled a number of all-nighters after system crashes and it really sucks when I'm tired and bleary eyed trying to concentrate and the senior manager comes into the office in the morning and bitches that the system is not up.

Either people bitch and A.Net does something about it or people bitch and nothing gets done, showcasing that the game has issues that A.Net isn't taking care of.
The fact that some random guy might feel demoralised by the bitching isn't our problem.

#53 Lordkrall

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostProtoss, on 21 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Either people bitch and A.Net does something about it or people bitch and nothing gets done, showcasing that the game has issues that A.Net isn't taking care of.
The fact that some random guy might feel demoralised by the bitching isn't our problem.

Or people don't bitch and ArenaNet still tries to fix things?
How much did people bitch about achivement not giving enough rewards?
As far as I have seen no one really bitched about that, but still ArenaNet are adding quite good rewards for doing them.

ArenaNet are not stupid. They do recognize "issues" even without people bitching. It is also very possible to discuss an issue without bitching, even though most people on the internet seems to have trouble with that.

#54 Eon Lilu

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

Have they said anything about fixing the need for an overflow with fractals of the mist? In normal dungeons you don't need an overflow, you should not need one with fotm either. Maybe they should fix that with the disconnects at the same time?

#55 Lordkrall

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 21 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Have they said anything about fixing the need for an overflow with fractals of the mist? In normal dungeons you don't need an overflow, you should not need one with fotm either. Maybe they should fix that with the disconnects at the same time?

Why would you need an overflow for Fractals? With guesting you simply join another server so it would be just like joining a group on your  server now.

They have already stated that they are adding the ability to rejoin after disconnects with the coming update.

#56 Eon Lilu

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Why would you need an overflow for Fractals? With guesting you simply join another server so it would be just like joining a group on your  server now.

They have already stated that they are adding the ability to rejoin after disconnects with the coming update.

Your stating what we already know and not what I asked, guesting does not solve what I was asking, especially for pugs.

Its a reasonable question too, if we can play with other eu servers in normal dungeons without the use of overflow's, why can we not do the same with fractals of the mists? We should be able to.

There is not always an overflow in lions arch, plus they have said a few times they made a mistake putting fotm only in lions arch and they may put in more locations or change the locations later on.

Guesting just means you can play with 2 other servers of players, with normal dungeons you can play with all other regional servers of players for any dungeon at anytime with no overflows needed.....why is it not the case with fractals?

I hope they eventually fix that at same time as the next update and they just have not mentioned it. Either that or we be waiting another 6 months for a fix...like the disconnects...

Edited by Eon Lilu, 21 January 2013 - 12:02 PM.


#57 Bloodtau

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

People do know you need to actually have someone on your friends list on a server to guest on it, right? You can't just select a server from the list and hit guest.

#58 Lordkrall

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 21 January 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

People do know you need to actually have someone on your friends list on a server to guest on it, right? You can't just select a server from the list and hit guest.

Incorrect.
That was how it was planned when it was first announced, now they have changed that however.

#59 Menehune

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostProtoss, on 21 January 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Either people bitch and A.Net does something about it or people bitch and nothing gets done, showcasing that the game has issues that A.Net isn't taking care of.
The fact that some random guy might feel demoralised by the bitching isn't our problem.

Or ArenaNet becomes aware of the issue and starts trying to find a solution even before the bitching starts and continues to try while the bitching is going on?

Obviously, you find bitching is ok and the right way to go and nothing I say will move you from that standpoint. It would seem that further discussion is useless as we would only hash and rehash the same points.

#60 Bloodtau

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 21 January 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Incorrect.
That was how it was planned when it was first announced, now they have changed that however.

Where have they said that they will be changing it?




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