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Upcoming AoE skill balancing (nerf)

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#31 Voradors

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostNadia Roark, on 18 January 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Except that you can... you know, evade or walk out of AoE. If you're dumb enough to stand in it (or your opponent(s) are good enough to root/snare you in it) you SHOULD take more damage.

Not all AOEs work like that though.  
Anet was increadibly vague as to what they consider an AOE.   A warrior swinging his auto attack and hiting 3 enemies in front of him...that is by definition an 'area of effect'.  Most auto attacks have an AOE component to them.
Then abilities like Elementalist Staff #3 which is an instant AOE burn.  Or instant AOE for Dagger fire #5, Fire Grab
Mesmer AOE blasts on Mind Rack, instant AOE for Mind Stab

While i get what your saying for some of the ground targeting AOE's, there are more than those, and i would like to know more about what Anet is doing here.....

#32 P4ndora

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

Imo they should nerf AoE damage but make it more "realistic". For example, AoE should hit everyone in it's range, the 5 limit is pretty stupid. Also AoE shouldn't damage through obstacles (well it's ok for siege weapons, but please, no for players...)

#33 Pusha

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:27 PM

Nice!  Zerg Buff!

#34 Craywulf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

I went back and read the reddit thread about AoE. Seems to me the major concern is the overuse of AoE spells, as one developer implied...

Quote

If your skill does 10 damage to a single target, if you have another skill that have the same opportunity cost but deals 8 damage to 5 targets, the AoE skill is better – we don’t want you to use AoE skills on single target mobs.
So it looks like they are looking at it as cost per damage kinda thing. Perhaps reducing amount of damage per target in AoE will balance the cost/damage ratio. For example if single target damage does 100 points for a cooldown of 3 seconds, then the AoE spell should be 50 points of damage per 5 targets for a cooldown of 3 seconds. This gives the player more thought in which skill they want to use for a specific situation.

#35 Arewn

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I see where you're going with that but how does reducing AoE break up zergs and reduce the average encounter size?
So far as I know, it doesn't. Which is why I'm all the more interested in seeing what other changes they might include.

#36 Voradors

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 18 January 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

I went back and read the reddit thread about AoE. Seems to me the major concern is the overuse of AoE spells, as one developer implied...
So it looks like they are looking at it as cost per damage kinda thing. Perhaps reducing amount of damage per target in AoE will balance the cost/damage ratio. For example if single target damage does 100 points for a cooldown of 3 seconds, then the AoE spell should be 50 points of damage per 5 targets for a cooldown of 3 seconds. This gives the player more thought in which skill they want to use for a specific situation.

That is looking at it from a strictly damage focused point of view.  Why do that when there are so many other factors?  Such as channel time, cool down time and the ability to easily dodge around half of the larger AOE abilities.

Honestly this game doesnt really have that many attacks to choose from.   For sake of argument, lets look at Elementalist since they will be the ones most affected by this.

Staff skills dont really allow themselves to have some attacks used on single target and some for multiple.
Regardless of element attunement staff breaks down to
#1  Single target with some AOE (Fire having a small blast radius, and Air jumping to multiple targets)
#2 Three out of Four are ground target AOE
#3 Generally a utility (AOE heal, a push, a shield and an AOE burn)
#4 Generally a utility (AOE speed boost, an evade, a chill and a cripple)
#5 A long cool down AOE

So, when using the staff you DO use AOE for single target because....thats all you have, and it isnt like you can switch weapons.
If these changes go through, your telling me a staff Elementalist will just auto attack for any fight with 2 or fewer enemies?  And with larger battles the enemies will just move out of our AOEs?

This doesnt seem fun at all.... Guess ill just run around D/D all the time because thats a better single target choice....right?  Lets see...

D/D
#1 auto attacks all hit multiple targets with the exception of earth attunement
#2 is a cone AOE or PBAOE
#3  Fire and Water are AOE, Earth is a utility gap closer and Air is a utility stun aura
#4  All AOE with the exception of Water shield.
#5  All AOE

Im not going to bother with scepter/focus, because they arent too good in a WvW or general situation; however they are also more AOE focused.

So, does this mean that an Elementalist is just screwed in 1v1 fights after this patch?   Where is the single target damage to make AOE nerfes acceptable?  
Guess Elementalist just roll with the zerg now......  
I am glad to hear one of Anets objective is to break that up with these changes btw....

EDIT: i am going to clarify that i will consider anything that hits 2 or more people to be an area of effect.  Not just because that...is kinda the definition, but also because one of the examples ANet gave is that people use AOE when a player is reviving someone else.  So, this clearly indicates that to them anything that hits 2 or more people is AOE.

2nd EDIT: It could be interesting to have AOE damge be a base factor and have it spread out across the targets in the AOE.
So, for example, Firegrab could do 700 dmg if it hits 1 target, 500 dmg if it hits 2 targets, 300 dmg if 3 etc.
However, this also encourages zerg mentality because now you will want as many people around you as possible to mitigate damage.  IMO all AOE Nerfs pretty much do that anyway though.................

Edited by Voradors, 18 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#37 Kurosov

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:



They also reference WvW in the transcript as a focus for adjustment.  You won't find much sympathy for dungeon crawler woes in this particular part of the Guru forums.  Any dungeon fixes that they want to implement are fine so long as they don't impact WvW.

But they never stated the solutions would the the same. That is blind assumption.

#38 Nadia Roark

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostVoradors, on 18 January 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not all AOEs work like that though.  
Anet was increadibly vague as to what they consider an AOE.   A warrior swinging his auto attack and hiting 3 enemies in front of him...that is by definition an 'area of effect'.  Most auto attacks have an AOE component to them.
Then abilities like Elementalist Staff #3 which is an instant AOE burn.  Or instant AOE for Dagger fire #5, Fire Grab
Mesmer AOE blasts on Mind Rack, instant AOE for Mind Stab

While i get what your saying for some of the ground targeting AOE's, there are more than those, and i would like to know more about what Anet is doing here.....

A good point, but I don't think that auto attacks or ele #3 are what they have in mind as being the big, zerg-breaking AoE skills. I run a staff ele in full zerker gear and I can usually spread out a zerg pretty easily, but that skill is actually more of a utility (to proc increased damage from burning foes) than anything else.

I for one am discouraged by these proposed changes. Yes, I'm insanely powerful against clustered mobs, but as people have said (and I tend to agree) zerging should have meaningful counters. I'm also sufficiently UP in many smaller encounters that I'm not ridiculously powerful all the time. If you spread out, us staff eles suddenly have to pick our targets and predict movement rather than just slam our #2 skills or meteor shower on everything. I also worry that if enough people abandon staff elementalist (as I might) that tower siege will become way too powerful.

#39 Voradors

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostKurosov, on 18 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

But they never stated the solutions would the the same. That is blind assumption.

I am just assuming 'par for the course'.
Your first post was saying Anet didnt say the nerfs would be for WvW, just dungeons.  I was pointing out that isnt the case.
Also, i am aware that they could do different fixes for this, like how i referenced the Thief sPvP changes in a different post in this thread....however what Anet said gave the impression that WvW AOE nerfs were a larger focus than PvE.
Thats what i am concerned over.

View PostNadia Roark, on 18 January 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

A good point, but I don't think that auto attacks or ele #3 are what they have in mind as being the big, zerg-breaking AoE skills. I run a staff ele in full zerker gear and I can usually spread out a zerg pretty easily, but that skill is actually more of a utility (to proc increased damage from burning foes) than anything else.

I for one am discouraged by these proposed changes. Yes, I'm insanely powerful against clustered mobs, but as people have said (and I tend to agree) zerging should have meaningful counters. I'm also sufficiently UP in many smaller encounters that I'm not ridiculously powerful all the time. If you spread out, us staff eles suddenly have to pick our targets and predict movement rather than just slam our #2 skills or meteor shower on everything. I also worry that if enough people abandon staff elementalist (as I might) that tower siege will become way too powerful.

Goin by the example Anet gave:

Quote

In PvP and WvW we see people using AOEs on enemy players rezzing other etc
It makes me believe that All AOE abilities are being looked at, not just the ones that can smack a large group of mobs or a zerg.

Mostly i am just very skeptical about these changes, and not looking forward to them AT ALL.
I am curious as to what others think, and didnt want to give the impression i am bashing your ideas....just Anets idea of doin this to begin with.
I too enjoy playing my elementalist with Staff and D/D, depending on the situation, and 90% of those attacks fall into AOE....

#40 Killminusnine

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostKurosov, on 18 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

But they never stated the solutions would the the same. That is blind assumption.

An assumption on my part? Yes.

A blind assumption? I don't think so because I'm basing it on their pattern of behavior from beta through the present.

#41 Cake is Cake

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

AoEs are better than single target dmg in large groups? nerf please

#42 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostCake is Cake, on 18 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

AoEs are better than single target dmg in large groups? nerf please

AoE is also better than single target damage against single targets. So yeah, fix please.

#43 lollasaurus

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

Breaking something that works fine.. again

#44 Norn Osprey

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostCake is Cake, on 18 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

AoEs are better than single target dmg in large groups? nerf please
No, they said that AOEs were better than single target skills in many cases. Go back and reread it

#45 Killminusnine

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostNorn Osprey, on 18 January 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

No, they said that AOEs were better than single target skills in many cases. Go back and reread it

But they left out the part about how they're easier to dodge and have to be manually targetted on the ground in many cases.

I find their lack of context... disturbing... /vader

#46 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

But they left out the part about how they're easier to dodge and have to be manually targetted on the ground in many cases.

I find their lack of context... disturbing... /vader

And yet you keep assume they talked about WvW or sPvP.
That was not the case. The statement was made in context of Dungeons.
Dungeon bosses don't dodge.

#47 Killminusnine

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

And yet you keep assume they talked about WvW or sPvP.
That was not the case. The statement was made in context of Dungeons.
Dungeon bosses don't dodge.

AoE abilities balancing
  • One of the issues brought up a lot in WvW./sPvP is AoE (Area of Effect). We feel like they are too strong at the moment and a lot of people in WvW are gaming the system using AoEs
http://dulfy.net/201...-17-transcript/

...

Moving on.

Edited by Killminusnine, 18 January 2013 - 10:00 PM.


#48 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:06 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

AoE abilities balancing
  • One of the issues brought up a lot in WvW./sPvP is AoE (Area of Effect). We feel like they are too strong at the moment and a lot of people in WvW are gaming the system using AoEs
http://dulfy.net/201...-17-transcript/

...

Moving on.


View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

And yet you keep assume they talked about WvW or sPvP.
That was not the case. The statement was made in context of Dungeons.
Dungeon bosses don't dodge.

Might I suggest you:
1: Actually read the post you are quoting.
2: Listen to the actual stream instead of assuming that a SUMMARY has the exact same wording as the developers actually said.

#49 Killminusnine

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Might I suggest you:
1: Actually read the post you are quoting.
2: Listen to the actual stream instead of assuming that a SUMMARY has the exact same wording as the developers actually said.

Sweet mother of Jesus.

Watch the video, skip to 12:06.  He says that AoE is too strong in WvW and SPvP and talks about what they feel specifically is too strong and needs an "across the board" nerf.  It matches the transcript word for word btw.

I should get a consulting fee for this shit.

Edited by Killminusnine, 18 January 2013 - 10:28 PM.


#50 Lordkrall

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

Sweet mother of Jesus.

Watch the video, skip to 12:06.  He says that AoE is too strong in WvW and SPvP.

That is not what he is saying.
He is saying: "What we gather is that some of them are too strong." End of sentence. "In WvW a lot of players are gaming the system".
He is not saying "AoE is too strong in WvW".

Also the actual statement that we are discussing (as in, AoE is stronger than Single Target skills against single targets) was in the context of Dungeons and bosses specifically.

#51 Voradors

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Might I suggest you:
1: Actually read the post you are quoting.
2: Listen to the actual stream instead of assuming that a SUMMARY has the exact same wording as the developers actually said.

You might want to watch the video you are asking others to watch..... because he clearly states its for WvW and sPvP at the start.  Just like the transcript says..........

#52 Killminusnine

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 18 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

That is not what he is saying.
He is saying: "What we gather is that some of them are too strong." End of sentence. "In WvW a lot of players are gaming the system".
He is not saying "AoE is too strong in WvW".

Also the actual statement that we are discussing (as in, AoE is stronger than Single Target skills against single targets) was in the context of Dungeons and bosses specifically.

Not one shit shall be given about dungeons in this forum.  Stop trying to sidestep the error that you just made about the video.  It clearly states that AoE is a problem in WvWSPvP and they are looking to address it with across the board reductions.

It is not a giant leap to see what they mean and where they are going.  You can try to parse words all you want to save face but stop muddling up this thread in the process.

#53 AKGeo

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:22 AM

You can guarantee that the Ice Bow conjure skill #4 will at the very least get its hit # count cut in half or worse. This is the strongest AoE in the game, and that's the reason elementalists are so valued in AC for two of the three explorable paths. Of course this is no surprise or secret, but people debating the meaning of AoE and postulating on possible nerfs of things like cone AoE from auto attacks and other things that are quite simply not an issue is just getting on my nerves. Yes, they'll be nerfing some skills. They should also be upping the power of some single-target skills, or maybe giving single-target skills the same cone AoE as above, so certain classes and weapons for them won't be so left out of the loop when it comes to DPS balance. Guardian mace comes to mind.

#54 Trei

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:40 AM

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Spoiler
You have taken the disputed post out of context.
You need to read further down towards the end of the rough-draft part 2 for the quote that was paraphrased.

Highlighted below is the sentence that prompted those posts discussing the issue of AoEs being better at single targets than single target attacks are.


Q: Elaborate your plans for changing AoEs
  • This is not a quick fix, we are getting a lot of data.
  • If your skil does 10 damage to a single target, if you have another skill that have the same opportunity cost but deals 8 damage to 5 targets, the AoE skill is better – we don’t want you to use AoE skills on single  target mobs.
  • Maybe add a new mechanic where mobs are resistant to AoE damage.
  • In PvP and WvW we see people using AOEs on enemy players rezzing other etc

Edited by Trei, 19 January 2013 - 03:49 AM.


#55 InkOnTube

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

I agree with Voradors.

I play ele since BWE3. I got used it to idea to have AoE profession in the game and to be kind of his thing. My complete mindset is turned towards staff which I use 85% of time. I use scepter + focus only to kill karka (earth) and some dungeon bosses that have retaliation. I really don't see scepter in any way heart appealing. I use D/D for PvP yet still I avoid WvW due to heavy toll on my frame rate. From my point of view, D/D is not for dungeons even I saw many people use it extremely well. So, I have staff with loads of AoE abilities that are gonna be nerfed.

Have they forgot that ele has lowest health of all professions when using staff build? AoE does huge damage but player must invest all in power and precision or alternately condition damage, in any way nothing in vitality. This is the whole point - you will be good with it and kill enemies before they kill you and they can one hit kill you easy.

If this nerf become severe, in way that ele staff AoE becomes mild damage, I will for sure stop playing. I have necro, war and ranger on 80 too. I started guardian and engineer - deleted both of them as not my kind of profession. Started thief - it is not for me. Started mesmer - interesting but that's not it. I play elementalist 90% of time in game because he is as he is with staff. And when they nerf it why should I play?

#56 Lordkrall

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:46 PM

Do people really think that they will make a profession completely useless?

#57 beadnbutter32

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

Anet loves to couch things backwards, as in the recent announced end to free server transfers, proclaimed as the glorious release of guesting.

Everyone is automatically assuming it is Elementalists that will get hit the hardest by this proposed AOE nerf.
Also assuming they mean ranged AOE.

This is an all out admission that the basic design tenents they laid the game out under were wrong.  Anet gave most classes a bunch of AOE skills that do more damage against single targets than the players single target skills.  This the PR way of saying they now think that was a mistake and they are going to reverse things.

Get ready for the long whined for nerf of the warriors melee AOEs: 100 blades, whirlwind, bladetrail, cyclone, whirling axe etc..

Don't be surprised if the Guardian's AOE's get nerfed as well: whirlwind, leap of faith, binding blade etc.
If they stick to the way they have treated Elementalists in the past, what ever nerf they get will most likely be the softest.

And yes this is going to ruin dungeon runs.  Anet wrongheadedly allows pvp to define pve skills.  They have failed to make dungeons very well so instead of making them better, they are going to reduce the player side of the equation, weaker player attack skills, and the dungeons just became geometrically harder.

So many attack skills are already almost worthless, the answer is not to make them all worthless.

Very deft move by Anet to get people distracted from discussing positive changes to dungeons which Anet seems dead set against if it involves improving drops, designing fun encounters that don't rely on tons of mob health and tons of copy and paste trash mobs.  Instead turn the argument on its head, and make the case that dungeons are bad because of player behavior and player attack skills are OP.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 20 January 2013 - 04:41 PM.


#58 heatrr

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:32 PM

Even after this alleged nerf to curtail zerging, zerging will continue - it amounts to simple math in WvW - you need numbers to take certain objectives outside of supply camps, etc. I can foresee ANet mucking things up a bit more for those of us in WvW, imho.

View PostKillminusnine, on 18 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

AoE abilities balancing
  • One of the issues brought up a lot in WvW./sPvP is AoE (Area of Effect). We feel like they are too strong at the moment and a lot of people in WvW are gaming the system using AoEs
http://dulfy.net/201...-17-transcript/

...

Moving on.


Do they even play WvW on a consistent basis to assert such? I have serious reservations that they do not.
ANet is breaking something that does not need fixing to their extreme. Zergs will continue to thrive even after they implement such measures to curtail them, bet.

Edited by heatrr, 20 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#59 LunarN

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 20 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Do people really think that they will make a profession completely useless?
I'm not sure about that, most only say that it breaks the whole game...

#60 Cynawren

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 20 January 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Do people really think that they will make a profession completely useless?
Engineers would like to have a word with you.




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