237 replies to this topic

[Strawberry Nubcake]

Arquenya, on 22 January 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Fully agree with you.

Actually I wonder what player type buys the most gems for gold:

• The player that wants to keep up with his friends, or collects mini-pets and dyes, wants keys to get rare Halloween stuff, players that want more storage, slots, fine T-stones or:
  
  
• Hardcore players that one way or another don't seem to be able to grind morte than 5-7 gold a day and don't want to wait another 3 months to get their legendary.

I doubt Anet gets much from group 2 if you catch my drift.

I'm part of group 1.  Gotta catch 'em all!  

[Tregarde]

If anyone thinks that GW2 has the worst economy, all I got to say is - go play Lineage 2, then come back and GW2 won't seem anywhere near as bad.

[jthamind]

Trei, on 22 January 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

So if I derive gaming fun solely from chopping trees and digging carrots as a gatherer but hate most of other activities in GW2, should I argue that I should level and earn gold just as fast as those who do most of everything else the game offers?

that is seriously the most freaking awesome idea ever.

i think i'm going to create a Norn Ranger named Henry The Logger and travel all over Tyria cutting down trees.

[The_Blades]

Gilles VI, on 21 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

There is a very easy solution:
Don't expect a game to entertain you forever, there is nothing wrong with buying 10 games and once you "finish" one switch to another and play that one.
I can understand alot of people want to be entertained forever by a single game, but it's just not possible for a new game that just came out to do that, even less so in GW2 with no fake barriers to slow down progression.

I see what you mean with progression, but every RPG I played my character got stronger, but after a few hours I then just stopped playing the game, why should online games be any different?

online games should be diferent because that's the point of an mmo. do you think anet made gw2 expecting people to play 2-3 months and then leave like in a single player offline game? there are long and short terms projections for the game. You can argue you only payed the box, well, that's anets financial model, however that is far from enough to tell people they got enough hours for what they payed. its a freakin mmo, its suposed to last, if not anet should have just taken a hint from bethesda and learn a thing or two about RPGs.

Edited by The_Blades, 22 January 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[Gilles VI]

The_Blades, on 22 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

online games should be diferent because that's the point of an mmo. do you think anet made gw2 expecting people to play 2-3 months and then leave like in a single player offline game? there are long and short terms projections for the game. You can argue you only payed the box, well, that's anets financial model, however that is far from enough to tell people they got enough hours for what they payed. its a freakin mmo, its suposed to last, if not anet should have just taken a hint from bethesda and learn a thing or two about RPGs.

According to who?
Why should a online game be different than an offline game?

What is wrong with leaving the game for a couple of months and then come back when they added new content?

[Fizzypop]

Gilles VI, on 22 January 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

According to who?
Why should a online game be different than an offline game?

What is wrong with leaving the game for a couple of months and then come back when they added new content?

According to the people who invented mmos. If two things have entirely different audiences, setup, and act differently....are they the same? When mmos were created they weren't "free to play" you paid a sub for them...so the idea is that you paid them to further develop content so it'd increase playability. This is becoming a new norm even for SINGLE player games with things like mass effect. This idea isn't going anywhere and if you want something to be mad at be mad at the companies that tell their customers this.

Edited by Fizzypop, 22 January 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[Gilles VI]

Fizzypop, on 22 January 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

According to the people who invented mmos. If two things have entirely different audiences, setup, and act differently....are they the same? When mmos were created they weren't "free to play" you paid a sub for them...so the idea is that you paid them to further develop content so it'd increase playability. This is becoming a new norm even for SINGLE player games with things like mass effect. This idea isn't going anywhere and if you want something to be mad at be mad at the companies that tell their customers this.

Originally sub-fees were for server costs*

And there is a difference between games like ME, Skyrim which sell additions, than players wanting a single MMO to rule over their whole life.
I'm under the impression alot of gamers want to be fed a carrot, and want to be addicted..

[Fizzypop]

Gilles VI, on 22 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Originally sub-fees were for server costs*

And there is a difference between games like ME, Skyrim which sell additions, than players wanting a single MMO to rule over their whole life.
I'm under the impression alot of gamers want to be fed a carrot, and want to be addicted..

No one every said this game or any game rules over their whole life...so let's leave b.s. to the side. They are asking for an mmo which was created to entertain for longer periods of time to do exactly that. The idea that single player games were meant to only entertain you for short periods of time is just false. I remember spending 6+ months on a single play-through of rpg (and this was way before updates became the norm) and even nearly a year on the better made ones. I had a SAVE dedicated to playing JUST the mini game of an rpg because it was just that fun. Open ended type of games? I can play for years hello civilization. I fully believe good games will entertain you for much longer than 1-2 months and if they don't they aren't good games.

As far as addiction is concerned...of course people want to be addicted not I personally, but that's not unusual. Addictions are very powerful and often make the victim feel good. Video games have been making money on this for years.

Edited by Fizzypop, 22 January 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Ovi Bell]

fatality39, on 19 January 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Article:
http://massively.joy...st-mmo-economy/

I agree with GW2 economy being a total failure.

First there is no supply or demand on the TP. This ruins the economy automatically. Everything is always on the tp and no one ever needs to worry about working for their stuff. Just run some WvW or some dungeons. get a wad of gold and buy everything you need. This isn't how you make money.

Also can we farm for our stuff? No we can't because of the shitty random DR's placed on loot and karma. Why punish players cuz of bots?(or atleast they said it was to punish bots from making to much and selling to much.) No what happens is we are forced to by gems if we want to play the game casual.. Even if we are hardcore GW2 farmers because thats what weve done in past MMO's sometime down the road the economy forces us to purchase gems from the gem shop and trade them for gold OR from the illegal gold sellers. Now in recent games theyve combated gold sellers by actually banning 99% of teh bots on the game. Here I see bots running amuck while they sit around banning people for their own * ups in the code. People wouldnt exploit ANET's * ups so much if ti was a bit easier to make money.

But hey then I guess the economy wouldnt be in the shape ANET wants it( A total Train wreck ).

~SKIgoBOOM

ps. play other mmo's with farm mechanics and good economies before you sit here and praise gw2's train wreck tactics of making money like its the best ever. Its total shit tbh.

[Gilles VI]

Ovi Bell, on 22 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I agree with GW2 economy being a total failure.

First there is no supply or demand on the TP. This ruins the economy automatically. Everything is always on the tp and no one ever needs to worry about working for their stuff. Just run some WvW or some dungeons. get a wad of gold and buy everything you need. This isn't how you make money.
What? No supply or demand? How do we trade things when there is no supply or demand?
Second point: you say everything is on the TP, quite the contradiction here.
And nobody needs toworry about working for their stuff? It's other people who put the item there in the first place mate..

Also can we farm for our stuff? No we can't because of the shitty random DR's placed on loot and karma. Why punish players cuz of bots?(or atleast they said it was to punish bots from making to much and selling to much.) No what happens is we are forced to by gems if we want to play the game casual.. Even if we are hardcore GW2 farmers because thats what weve done in past MMO's sometime down the road the economy forces us to purchase gems from the gem shop and trade them for gold OR from the illegal gold sellers. Now in recent games theyve combated gold sellers by actually banning 99% of teh bots on the game. Here I see bots running amuck while they sit around banning people for their own * ups in the code. People wouldnt exploit ANET's * ups so much if ti was a bit easier to make money.
DR has been changed, only extremely hardcore people would still hit DR in a reasonable amount of time..
How are we forced to buy gems to play the game casually? Play a couple of hours and you got max stats gear, this doesn't sound casual-unfriendly..
Must be your own experienc, it's been a long time since I saw bots..
And bots have nothing to do with banning people that exploit, exploiters get what they deserve..

But hey then I guess the economy wouldnt be in the shape ANET wants it( A total Train wreck ).

~SKIgoBOOM

ps. play other mmo's with farm mechanics and good economies before you sit here and praise gw2's train wreck tactics of making money like its the best ever. Its total shit tbh.
Other MMO's where profitable ways of making money is to farm the same mob over and over for hours? No thanks..

[Ovi Bell]

Let me see a quote stating from the GW2 Dev team that the DR's have been changed and the formula behind it. Till then shh.

[Trei]

Ovi Bell, on 22 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

... First there is no supply or demand on the TP. This ruins the economy automatically. Everything is always on the tp and no one ever needs to worry about working for their stuff. Just run some WvW or some dungeons. get a wad of gold and buy everything you need. This isn't how you make money.

Here's a little IQ game: match the same color texts together!
Then answer the IQ question: Does this paragraph still make sense?

Ovi Bell, on 22 January 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Also can we farm for our stuff? No we can't because of the shitty random DR's placed on loot and karma. Why punish players cuz of bots?(or atleast they said it was to punish bots from making to much and selling to much.) No what happens is we are forced to by gems if we want to play the game casual want to get everything we like right NOW ....

Fixed.

Don't confuse impatience and greed with casual gaming.

[Fizzypop]

Specialz, on 22 January 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

MMO players are special breed. To me the thought of playing the same game forever is downright depressing. I mean most gamers would be happy if batman arkham city lasted for 60 hours (it's like 10 hours long), but to MMO players the a game lasting 200 hours is not enough. Or to be more precise they want a game well they are forced to play.

I have to wonder do you even like video games? I must be the only person in this universe who grew up on games that took months to complete fully and were enjoyable. I mean these games have YEARS of development and yet you only expect a week tops worth of entertainment? Really? It's more depressing that some game companies are releasing terrible games because of this type of gamer. I don't expect forever, but I sure as hell expect a lot more than a week's worth of entertainment.

[Barbieslayer]

Gilles VI, on 22 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Originally sub-fees were for server costs*

And there is a difference between games like ME, Skyrim which sell additions, than players wanting a single MMO to rule over their whole life.
I'm under the impression alot of gamers want to be fed a carrot, and want to be addicted..

People who play games that are persistant want that type of game.  Games like ME and Skyrim are games that are built to be beaten easily and the world scales to you to provide entertainment.  Some of us were bought up on games the we never expected to finish due to lack of the ability to save, difficulty, and an Arcade feel to them that provided a challange.

MMOs are the kind of game I wanted to see when I was growing up (though I have to say I expected more at this point 20 odd years ago), and the fact that there is a virtual world shared by many on any level is where games should be going.  Things like Left for Dead are fun, but could you imagin that game with more mature gameplay, persistance, an open world and millions of other players? Or even the GTA seires?  Why would people who want a game like that waste their time on over hyped, over priced and over marketed cash grabs? I'd be willing to pay more for games that offer me what I like over what games publishers think I should pay for a few hours of what turns out to be rather shallow gameplay with no real challange or meaning.

And..

Sub fees were sold as covering sever costs. If that was the case, why were they never scaled down when more people played their game?

And more on topic.  The best way to make in game gold is probably by playing the trade post.  If you can corner a market and inflate prices with no outside competition, makeing the game a chore for others rather than a fun enviroment where you feel you are achieving little things that improve your quality of virtual life, seems silly.  If there were vendors that bought and sold items based on what the player base was buying and selling as well as the trade post, it would go some way to keeping costs relitive, and mitigate the damage done by people who want to inflate prices.  The fact that this game has an economy run by an economist, rather than a human-being, could also part way explain why buyer satisfaction isn't as highly regarded as it should be.

[Gilles VI]

Barbieslayer, on 23 January 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

People who play games that are persistant want that type of game.  Games like ME and Skyrim are games that are built to be beaten easily and the world scales to you to provide entertainment.  Some of us were bought up on games the we never expected to finish due to lack of the ability to save, difficulty, and an Arcade feel to them that provided a challange.

MMOs are the kind of game I wanted to see when I was growing up (though I have to say I expected more at this point 20 odd years ago), and the fact that there is a virtual world shared by many on any level is where games should be going.  Things like Left for Dead are fun, but could you imagin that game with more mature gameplay, persistance, an open world and millions of other players? Or even the GTA seires?  Why would people who want a game like that waste their time on over hyped, over priced and over marketed cash grabs? I'd be willing to pay more for games that offer me what I like over what games publishers think I should pay for a few hours of what turns out to be rather shallow gameplay with no real challange or meaning.

And..

Sub fees were sold as covering sever costs. If that was the case, why were they never scaled down when more people played their game?

And more on topic.  The best way to make in game gold is probably by playing the trade post.  If you can corner a market and inflate prices with no outside competition, makeing the game a chore for others rather than a fun enviroment where you feel you are achieving little things that improve your quality of virtual life, seems silly.  If there were vendors that bought and sold items based on what the player base was buying and selling as well as the trade post, it would go some way to keeping costs relitive, and mitigate the damage done by people who want to inflate prices.  The fact that this game has an economy run by an economist, rather than a human-being, could also part way explain why buyer satisfaction isn't as highly regarded as it should be.

No I would not want to see games like GTA with millions of players..
MMO's have their uniqueness because of the amount of players, but so have singleplayer games.
Singleplayer allows alot of things because of the lack of other players.

And yes about the sub fee you bring a good point!
Why were they never lowered/done away with? Cash grabbing
Same argument alot of the WoW fanboys make "a good MMO needs a sub-fee to bring good content", yea well last year they payed 12 months sub-fee + a box cost for a expansion and 2 updates?
It's a straw argument.

And if you can corner a market?
I hope you realise this is harder than it sounds, there are indeed over 3 million boxes sold, and with a worldwide TP, if you are able to do that, you have the right to make some gold imo.

[MazingerZ]

Trei, on 23 January 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

Here's a little IQ game: match the same color texts together!
Then answer the IQ question: Does this paragraph still make sense?


Fixed.

Don't confuse impatience and greed with casual gaming.

"supply and demand" not "supply" and "demand"

It's in reference to the model failing due to one part of the model failing.

The issue comes in that its not a vibrant economy.  Everyone knows what sells, its actually pretty stagnant.  There is not a diversified mix at all of needs to keep people playing in various areas.  High-end materials, rare materials from salvage.  Precursors.  Legendaries.

And DRs impact people's freedom.

Let's say you can't play in spurts, but you can set aside an entire day to fap about in the game.  DRs will keep you down, as opposed to playing in spurts.  It restricts your freedom to play the game the way you want, even if you're being casual and just playing in spread out long bursts, as opposed to daily tiny bursts.

Edited by MazingerZ, 23 January 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Eon Lilu]

MazingerZ, on 23 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

"supply and demand" not "supply" and "demand"

It's in reference to the model failing due to one part of the model failing.

The issue comes in that its not a vibrant economy.  Everyone knows what sells, its actually pretty stagnant.  There is not a diversified mix at all of needs to keep people playing in various areas.  High-end materials, rare materials from salvage.  Precursors.  Legendaries.

And DRs impact people's freedom.

Let's say you can't play in spurts, but you can set aside an entire day to fap about in the game.  DRs will keep you down, as opposed to playing in spurts.  It restricts your freedom to play the game the way you want, even if you're being casual and just playing in spread out long bursts, as opposed to daily tiny bursts.

Yep Diminishing Returns is the worst thing in mmo history, it just stops players doing what they want to do and forces them to go do something else..

[Asha2012]

ObscureThreat, on 19 January 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

But due to the drop rates of mats, mats are worth more than almost all of the crafted recipes. Therefore it's become almost impossible for a crafter to make a profit. Crafting just feels tacked on, when almost all the crafted items are worthless.

This is so frustrating.  Just one piece of rare (tailor) requires 5 ectos plus the gossamer and rare mats.  If you were to add up the cost of those mats and factor in the effort to getting them (outside of buying them in the TP) the price of a piece of rare should be MUCH higher.

I am very disappointed in Anet in regards to this.  This discrepency is one of the more obvious signs Anet wants to push everyone towards pulling out a credit card and buying gems.

In truth, I've been fortunate.  I have "naturally" collected very nice materials and have generous guild mates so I have been able to turn a profit in the TP on rare armor sales.  However, the crafting quickly cleaned me out and it's simply not fair to assume everyone will just continue to give me hard to find items (nor would I want them too).

I know the game is all anti-grind but you know, I don't mind doing a little farming so long as it bears some fruit.  How many respawning lvl 80 veteran snow trolls do I have to kill on my own before they drop anything let alone powerful blood.  "Play the game the way you want to play" but not necessarily to feel any sort sense of achievement.

Here's hoping January 28th addresses some of these concerns or Elder Scrolls Online might grab my play time.

[Moon Electric]

Eon Lilu, on 23 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Yep Diminishing Returns is the worst thing in mmo history, it just stops players doing what they want to do and forces them to go do something else..

This is an interesting point, especially considering some of the other replies in this thread regarding MMO longevity in general. Without DR in place (I'm thinking dungeon tokens here as well as mat farming), how quickly would people blow through current content? I think DR is just another form of content gating desgined to keep people playing. The amount of time, resources and effort required to add content to a game compared to how quickly this content is consumed by the playerbase seems to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. It's analogous to a movie in that it may take several years for the movie to be created/released and yet it is consumed by the public in a matter of a few hours.

Let's say ArenaNet removed DR completely. Wouldn't that just increase the supply drastically (thus lowering the costs overall) while keeping the demand at current levels? I'm not sure if this would be a good thing or a bad thing...

[Krazzar]

Eon Lilu, on 23 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Yep Diminishing Returns is the worst thing in mmo history, it just stops players doing what they want to do and forces them to go do something else..

It's a very clear message that farming is not how they want you to play the game. You may have been able to log into GW1 and do the same farm run 50 times but that's not what they want with GW2. They would much rather have players use a system like crafting to gain wealth by gathering materials from various activies and making them more valuble or buying materials and making them more valuble because that is actually economic activity. Farming is just creating gold.  What would a real country support, legitimate business that reinforces economic activity or everyone printing their own money?

Instead of recieving the clear message some block it out and call it an infringement on their play-style. Farming is not a play-style, you don't play the game by farming, play using the definiton of the word hinging on fun, you destroy it. The activities of farming are not fun, the results are considered "fun". You don't want to farm but you want to have tons of money in the future. Anywhere else that's called grinding and people are almost universally against grind, yet here people want to grind.

[Baldur The Bold]

DR aside it seems the only way to make money is play the TP. Until Anet decides to reward players for playing the game instead of watching spreadsheets, players will become more and more despondent.
Overall GW2 economy is probably not the worst economy ever in a mmo but it is pretty bad.
Someone tell me how to get a precursor for a legendary without using the TP. Mystic toilet is a waste of time and generally a waste of money. Dungeon running + farming would take forever to get, not even considering DR.
Anet loves the current economy as it forces users to spend money irl for gems.

[Krazzar]

Baldur The Bold, on 23 January 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

DR aside it seems the only way to make money is play the TP. Until Anet decides to reward players for playing the game instead of watching spreadsheets, players will become more and more despondent.
Overall GW2 economy is probably not the worst economy ever in a mmo but it is pretty bad.
Someone tell me how to get a precursor for a legendary without using the TP. Mystic toilet is a waste of time and generally a waste of money. Dungeon running + farming would take forever to get, not even considering DR.
Anet loves the current economy as it forces users to spend money irl for gems.

Tell us how much real money a legendary precusor would cost in the gem trade. Spending real money for things in GW2 isn't feasible for anything more than a bank tab or character slot.

[adra12]

The real problem with the economy is not the economy its the people. MMO Gamers these days are all of the opinion of I want the best/coolest stuff right now regardless of my playtime and as soon as I have that stuff I want the developer to give me new stuff to want right now. The MMO community has been brainwashed to require developers to put out new content weekly or even daily which is just not financially possible. So at the end of each day these same people will always complain and that is just the way it is.

Edited by adra12, 23 January 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Baldur The Bold]

adra12, on 23 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

The real problem with the economy is not the economy its the people. MMO Gamers these days are all of the opinion of I want the best/coolest stuff right now regardless of my playtime and as soon as I have that stuff I want the developer to give me new stuff to want right now. The MMO community has been brainwashed to require developers to put out new content weekly or even daily which is just not financially possible. So at the end of each day these same people will always complain and that is just the way it is.

I have no problem waiting(grinding) for 5 months to get a precursor. The problem lies in the fact that when that 5 months is up, the price of that item will have inflated beyond any reasonable price for a player with the exception of someone who plays the TP.
I don't care or want new content really. Lost Shores pt2 anyone bleh. There are serious issues with this game in it's current state without compounding it with new content.

[Grim_Ling]

Krazzar, on 23 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's a very clear message that farming is not how they want you to play the game. You may have been able to log into GW1 and do the same farm run 50 times but that's not what they want with GW2. They would much rather have players use a system like crafting to gain wealth by gathering materials from various activies and making them more valuble or buying materials and making them more valuble because that is actually economic activity. Farming is just creating gold.  What would a real country support, legitimate business that reinforces economic activity or everyone printing their own money?

I tend to disagree with you on some of the farming things.  I do stand with you on the kill foe x 1 billion times over would be called farming and is boring....imo...  However, I played Guild Wars 1 for 7 years and even till the end I loved clearing Morostav Trail for fun and faction.  Sometimes a guildmate and I would do it 2-3 times in one evening just because we enjoyed it.  I didn't play anywhere else in the game just this over and over and over.... I enjoyed it.  You would classify this as farming and I should get DR for doing this.... that's where I disagree with you.  If I want to run around killing grawl and icebroods all day because i enjoy it i should be rewarded just as much as the person that stands in 1 place and kills the 1 guy 1 billion times.
The main one I hate is the DR on dungeons... tokens for me are hard to some buy but I love playing through AC and pulling the traps on the breeder and seeing hundereds of them just die... (i cant even remember the path that, that is) but I cant do that over and over because I dont get rewarded for doing something I really enjoy more than 1 time without going somewhere else.... this is a big problem
Different strokes for different folks.


and I do think this economy is shot without saving... just watch prices of ectos/rares in TP... 1 person can buy ALL of 1 item and deligate a price... gay sauce

Edited by Grim_Ling, 23 January 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Baldur The Bold]

Krazzar, on 23 January 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Tell us how much real money a legendary precusor would cost in the gem trade. Spending real money for things in GW2 isn't feasible for anything more than a bank tab or character slot.

It would be about $500 roughly(if I did the math right and depending on the precursor). But that is really the point isn't it. There are people that will pay that since there isn't any other way of obtaining them. Work the TP(spreadsheet wars2), Mystic Toilet(generally will be at a loss in total gold) ,grind the game until you can afford it(basically against the GW2 philosophy) or as a random drop(good luck with that).

[Krazzar]

Grim_Ling, on 23 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Spoiler

I tend to disagree with you on some of the farming things.  I do stand with you on the kill foe x 1 billion times over would be called farming and is boring....imo...  However, I played Guild Wars 1 for 7 years and even till the end I loved clearing Morostav Trail for fun and faction.  Sometimes a guildmate and I would do it 2-3 times in one evening just because we enjoyed it.  I didn't play anywhere else in the game just this over and over and over.... I enjoyed it.  You would classify this as farming and I should get DR for doing this.... that's where I disagree with you.  If I want to run around killing grawl and icebroods all day because i enjoy it i should be rewarded just as much as the person that stands in 1 place and kills the 1 guy 1 billion times.
The main one I hate is the DR on dungeons... tokens for me are hard to some buy but I love playing through AC and pulling the traps on the breeder and seeing hundereds of them just die... (i cant even remember the path that, that is) but I cant do that over and over because I dont get rewarded for doing something I really enjoy more than 1 time without going somewhere else.... this is a big problem
Different strokes for different folks.




and I do think this economy is shot without saving... just watch prices of ectos/rares in TP... 1 person can buy ALL of 1 item and deligate a price... gay sauce

Here's the GW1 problem; everyone lines up at farming spots because it's where you can make the most money, people do the same runs again and again, and in the other 98% of the game it's hard to find another person. In GW2 that's an even bigger problem because you need people at times to do things in the open world. The GW1 problem already happened in GW2, that's why DR was created in the first place as a reactionary response to something the devs clearly don't want. Reactionary responses are usually not very good in function or the best-designed systems because they aim to fix a problem this very second. We are given very clear incentives to not farm through DR, yet that is ignored and instead people complain. It's not to stop people that enjoy a particular experience, after all, the experience is still there, it's to stop people from lining up at the CoF and run it 50 times while the rest of the world has no one in it. We've seen that somewhat, the population densities are clearly skewed, and that has something to do with the reward system.

So what's more important; everyone making loads of money in an empty game world to the point where money is useless (ala GW1), or having a working economy in a game world that has players throughout it? That's obviously not going to happen overnight with one or two changes, but a working economy and lively game world is the goal, the negative example is GW1, an empty farmers game.

Baldur The Bold, on 23 January 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

It would be about $500 roughly(if I did the math right and depending on the precursor). But that is really the point isn't it. There are people that will pay that since there isn't any other way of obtaining them. Work the TP(spreadsheet wars2), Mystic Toilet(generally will be at a loss in total gold) ,grind the game until you can afford it(basically against the GW2 philosophy) or as a random drop(good luck with that).

You should probably thank someone that outright buys a legendary because they're single-handedly funding a large portion of the game.  Think of it as them paying everyone's subscription fee. Actually, Anet's model is predicated on the assumption that some will spend lots of money, many will spend a little, and some will spend none.  Beyond that who cares how someone got an item? It's a personal achievement, just buying something removes the achievement part of it, unless of course you're stuck in the game of epeen comparison and don't really care about your own experiences and goals and just want to stand around and compare gear. For most people it is simply not feasible, so it's not a case of P2W where in order to get the best gear or best looking gear everyone must spend real money. The only problem left is an epeen contest, and arguing game design based on whatever would favor your epeen is pretty childish.

[Bonana]

Baldur The Bold, on 23 January 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

It would be about $500 roughly(if I did the math right and depending on the precursor). But that is really the point isn't it. There are people that will pay that since there isn't any other way of obtaining them. Work the TP(spreadsheet wars2), Mystic Toilet(generally will be at a loss in total gold) ,grind the game until you can afford it(basically against the GW2 philosophy) or as a random drop(good luck with that).

I calculated about $450 one time. So you aren't way off, lol.

But yeah, some people are that desperate; and will buy gems just to get what ever they want. A friend of mine did just that. He must have spent $2000 alone on gems just to get like, 5 precursors.

[Trei]

MazingerZ, on 23 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

"supply and demand" not "supply" and "demand"

It's in reference to the model failing due to one part of the model failing.

The issue comes in that its not a vibrant economy.  Everyone knows what sells, its actually pretty stagnant.  There is not a diversified mix at all of needs to keep people playing in various areas.  High-end materials, rare materials from salvage.  Precursors.  Legendaries.

And DRs impact people's freedom.

Let's say you can't play in spurts, but you can set aside an entire day to fap about in the game.  DRs will keep you down, as opposed to playing in spurts.  It restricts your freedom to play the game the way you want, even if you're being casual and just playing in spread out long bursts, as opposed to daily tiny bursts.

Disagree with all points.

I am not seeing the difference just because you added two more apostrophes.
Which part is failing? Supply or demand?
Surplus supply to low demand? Shortage of supply to high demand?

What constitutes to a "vibrant economy" exactly? One where only a select few can "game" the system and corner a market?
Is that good for the game, or just good for you?

You see stagnancy, I see equilibrium of a perfectly competitive market.

While it is pretty much impossible in the real world, perfect competition ensures the in game player gets the best price for any item he may want to buy. It's a consumer's world.
That's a good thing for the average GW2 player.

If you are looking for profit in the long run from trading in GW2, you will be sorely disappointed.
But short term profits are very much possible if you know when to enter and (more importantly) exit a market.

DRs don't impact my freedom. I don't see it that way, my glass is half full.
It doesn't outright force me to stop, does it? I can still farm at the same spot the whole day if I choose to, I just get less out of it.
Thus, it encourages me to farm somewhere else instead, or do something else.

It's a matter of perspective.
I simply chose the one that makes the game fun for me.
I'm sorry you chose the other one.

[Eon Lilu]

Krazzar, on 23 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's a very clear message that farming is not how they want you to play the game. You may have been able to log into GW1 and do the same farm run 50 times but that's not what they want with GW2. They would much rather have players use a system like crafting to gain wealth by gathering materials from various activies and making them more valuble or buying materials and making them more valuble because that is actually economic activity. Farming is just creating gold. What would a real country support, legitimate business that reinforces economic activity or everyone printing their own money?

Instead of recieving the clear message some block it out and call it an infringement on their play-style. Farming is not a play-style, you don't play the game by farming, play using the definiton of the word hinging on fun, you destroy it. The activities of farming are not fun, the results are considered "fun". You don't want to farm but you want to have tons of money in the future. Anywhere else that's called grinding and people are almost universally against grind, yet here people want to grind.

Your asuming diminishing returns is all about farming something over and over, it is not and there are things in the game that it causes a negative effect on players and the choice of what content they play at what time, it also forces players to have to go do something they don't really want to do, so either they do that or just go play another game where they can do what they want....which do you think most players will choose? They will either stop playing, resent they are being forced to do something they didn't choose or leave the game completely. Diminishing returns also effects parts of the game that are not about farming 100 times, DR kicks in sometimes even after you only do something ONCE...yes just ONCE...and DR kicks in....

Either way you look at it diminishing returns has a negative effect on the players, Anet try's to justify it saying it is to stop bottters....and to help the economy, but obviously it is just to push more players towards the gem store.

You say in real life everyone does not print there own money, governments don't print there own money so we should not be able to choose how we wish to play a game? Thats a silly argument and such a terrible comparison and nothing to do with anything but I will take it, governments pump more self printed money into the economy than anyone else in the world.....if they didn't we would of had a world wide callapse long ago, why? because today's systems of economics...do not work in the long term, there a quick fix and a short term solution to a long term problem.

That is what DR is, a quick fix. instead of having DR in the game where Anet forces players to play the game the way they want us to, it's there game, they made it that way, they could of quite easily made it so DR is not even needed in the first place, but that would of needed more effort wouldn't it...

Edited by Eon Lilu, 23 January 2013 - 06:51 PM.