237 replies to this topic

[Baldur The Bold]

Maybe when they implement the scavenger hunt that will help things.
Elder Scrolls online soon and Crysis 3. GW2 will go on the back end

[Var]

Eon Lilu, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Either way you look at it diminishing returns has a negative effect on the players, Anet try's to justify it saying it is to stop bottters....and to help the economy, but obviously it is just to push more players towards the gem store.

You really love affirming the consequent, don't you? The only way your statement would actually be true is if, upon hitting any one DR in the game, all DRs activate, in which case, yes, you'd have no choice but to be driven to purchase gems if you wanted to turn a profit. However if simply one option is removed, even if it happens to be your most favorite option ever, you are still left with many other options. To further the point, it is rather hard to actually hit a point at which DR actually removes your favorite thing. Let's illustrate:

Farming/Grinding Options:

• DR kicks in on killing many of the same thing but you like to farm by killing many things. What can you do? Move to a different mob type and zone, everything remains the same aside from a scenery change. To exhaust every mob type and zone, would take more hours then there are to a day.
  
• Dungeon runs. You love to run dungeons but DR kicks in on the second run of the same path (tokens only). If you don't care about the tokens all paths can be run twice before exp/gold end rewards drop, bosses never DR (and they are where the majority of a dungeon run's money comes from, see: CoF P1, which is run tens of times a day by people), and there are a total of 8 dungeons with 25 paths amongst them. That's 50 runs, that's more than a 24 hours. And then there is the Fractals of No DR Anyway for infinity time.
  
• Gathering... has no DR.
  
• Events only DR if the same event is repeated back to back.
  
• World chests don't DR, they simply have a timer, but there are upwards of a hundred chests littered the world over.

What else DRs?

Do you know what the system actually does? It discourages farming the easiest thing over and over (the path of least resistance, and the one that bots follow). This is what your complaint is, hidden behind all the other words and slights of hand that you use to construct the fallacy of consequent. That the simplest way to turn the biggest profit cannot be run ad nauseum. The methods of turning said profit do not actually disappear from you, you can continue to farm mobs (or run dungeons) for hours onto days if that's how you like to play and you can always cycle the mob types (or the dungeons) to cycle the DR, but that's not the easiest way to turn a profit because you are forced to alter your inertia. Do you want to farm Powerful Bloods? Farm Trolls for an hour, then farm bats. Nothing has actually changed in the system, you are still farming stupid AI mobs that have the same specific drop you are after, the DR on trolls does not apply to bats, but you are simply choosing to restrict the case such as to buttress your argument which is improper.

Edited by Var, 23 January 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[adra12]

Eon Lilu, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Your asuming diminishing returns is all about farming something over and over, it is not and there are things in the game that it causes a negative effect on players and the choice of what content they play at what time, it also forces players to have to go do something they don't really want to do, so either they do that or just go play another game where they can do what they want....which do you think most players will choose? They will either stop playing, resent they are being forced to do something they didn't choose or leave the game completely. Diminishing returns also effects parts of the game that are not about farming 100 times, DR kicks in sometimes even after you only do something ONCE...yes just ONCE...and DR kicks in....

Either way you look at it diminishing returns has a negative effect on the players, Anet try's to justify it saying it is to stop bottters....and to help the economy, but obviously it is just to push more players towards the gem store.

You say in real life everyone does not print there own money, governments don't print there own money so we should not be able to choose how we wish to play a game? Thats a silly argument and such a terrible comparison and nothing to do with anything but I will take it, governments pump more self printed money into the economy than anyone else in the world.....if they didn't we would of had a world wide callapse long ago, why? because today's systems of economics...do not work in the long term, there a quick fix and a short term solution to a long term problem.

That is what DR is, a quick fix. instead of having DR in the game where Anet forces players to play the game the way they want us to, it's there game, they made it that way, they could of quite easily made it so DR is not even needed in the first place, but that would of needed more effort wouldn't it...

If you stop doing something because DR kicks in and your not getting paid as much for it then your not doing it because your enjoy doing it, your doing it because you enjoy the money it makes you. If you are doing it because you enjoy the money it makes you then by making it give less money to do it too long they are reducing your need to do it.

[Eon Lilu]

adra12, on 23 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

If you stop doing something because DR kicks in and your not getting paid as much for it then your not doing it because your enjoy doing it, your doing it because you enjoy the money it makes you. If you are doing it because you enjoy the money it makes you then by making it give less money to do it too long they are reducing your need to do it.

Sorry thats way off incorrect, lets take dungeons for example, I enjoy running them, sometimes I like to run the same dungeon 2 or 3 times with friends, not 100 times not 1000 times, just maybe twice or sometimes 3 times on the same dungeon, not to farm it, but because we enjoy it.

Why should players be punished for this? Basically they should not be punished for it, DR is not just punishing and negatively effecting farmers or botters or crazy uber epic grinders as everyone keeps trying to point out, its effecting the average casual or non grinding players aswell in a negative way, its punishing players for choosing to play a certain content not 1000 times but for only doing it more than once....just one time and DR kicks in...and dungeons is only one example.

It also has a negative effect on social groups in the game, a few times you get players saying, oh sorry guys I want to come on another run with you but I just hit DR, il have to go do something else sorry. Another negative effect of DR, could the player just say screw the rewards il just go with you guys anyway, sure they could, but why should Anet force players to have to make that choice with DR? Why should that player be punished for wanting to do the same thing with his friends more than just once?

Anet have gone overkill with DR and its effecting all types of things in the game and all types of players, not just the uber hardcore mega grinders as some of you like to try to make it sound like.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 23 January 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Grim_Ling]

Krazzar, on 23 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Here's the GW1 problem; everyone lines up at farming spots because it's where you can make the most money, people do the same runs again and again, and in the other 98% of the game it's hard to find another person. In GW2 that's an even bigger problem because you need people at times to do things in the open world. The GW1 problem already happened in GW2, that's why DR was created in the first place as a reactionary response to something the devs clearly don't want. Reactionary responses are usually not very good in function or the best-designed systems because they aim to fix a problem this very second. We are given very clear incentives to not farm through DR, yet that is ignored and instead people complain. It's not to stop people that enjoy a particular experience, after all, the experience is still there, it's to stop people from lining up at the CoF and run it 50 times while the rest of the world has no one in it. We've seen that somewhat, the population densities are clearly skewed, and that has something to do with the reward system.

So what's more important; everyone making loads of money in an empty game world to the point where money is useless (ala GW1), or having a working economy in a game world that has players throughout it? That's obviously not going to happen overnight with one or two changes, but a working economy and lively game world is the goal, the negative example is GW1, an empty farmers game.

I again disagree... money was not useless even in the end... it was to the people who had hundreds of stacks of ectos... but there were still high end and low end items (yes I know there were high end items traded just between the most elite) but this lead to a rather stable economy... you could buy rare stuff from venders which kept prices down and somewhat stable.  This is nowhere in GW2.  If they had crafting materials, and collectables in a vender that would keep these cost stable and the cost of crafting down also...  Legendaries could be crafted by amassing LOADS of materials by playing the game or by playing the game getting money and buying the peices that make up the crafting needs.  (I.E. armor in GW1) 15k armor needed money and materials... you could either get all the materials and money or get more money and buy the materials FROM A VENDOR or A PERSON... but 2 ways to get the same thing and they were SET prices. (except for very minor fluxuation on materials)
What this gets you is a mass of people who can get mostly the same things with just normal time and play... then there were the high end items that took MUCH MUCH more dedication... (FoW armor) still same method just alot more effort...

I know this is the same thing we have with normal armor and weapon sets and legendaries now (I am not complaining about the time aspect of this) the difference is now the TP... when you get that select few that amasses ALL the wealth and buys LITERALLY EVERYTHING of 1 particular item in the game and sets their own price is where this economy is going down hill real fast... there is no way for a casual player who wants a cool teir 3 set of armor or a cool weapon that is crafted to get these without playing for months for 1 item because the prices on TP are set by the richest people...

epic fail of an economy...

[Krazzar]

Eon Lilu, on 23 January 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Spoiler

Your asuming diminishing returns is all about farming something over and over, it is not and there are things in the game that it causes a negative effect on players and the choice of what content they play at what time, it also forces players to have to go do something they don't really want to do, so either they do that or just go play another game where they can do what they want....which do you think most players will choose? They will either stop playing, resent they are being forced to do something they didn't choose or leave the game completely. Diminishing returns also effects parts of the game that are not about farming 100 times, DR kicks in sometimes even after you only do something ONCE...yes just ONCE...and DR kicks in....

Either way you look at it diminishing returns has a negative effect on the players, Anet try's to justify it saying it is to stop bottters....and to help the economy, but obviously it is just to push more players towards the gem store.

You say in real life everyone does not print there own money, governments don't print there own money so we should not be able to choose how we wish to play a game? Thats a silly argument and such a terrible comparison and nothing to do with anything but I will take it, governments pump more self printed money into the economy than anyone else in the world.....if they didn't we would of had a world wide callapse long ago, why? because today's systems of economics...do not work in the long term, there a quick fix and a short term solution to a long term problem.

That is what DR is, a quick fix. instead of having DR in the game where Anet forces players to play the game the way they want us to, it's there game, they made it that way, they could of quite easily made it so DR is not even needed in the first place, but that would of needed more effort wouldn't it...

DR is a mysterious thing which some, like yourself, use to your advantage. In order to be taken seriously you'll have to cite some empirical evidence on how quickly DR cuts rewards to zero because most players don't even notice it. Last night I was in a zone for an hour and the event reward was decreased by 15 copper, such a loss. It's (surprise, surprise) the farmers that complain about it. Of course it depends on perspective again, is the player in it for the game or for the money. Anet makes it clear farming isn't on the list of approved activities.

You should probably only stick to one topic you know nothing about instead of trying to branch out to real-world issues. The financial crisis in the US (and the current EU financial crisis) was not because governments were printing their own money, it was due to extreme leverage of financial institutions (and lending between EU countries). If it were simply a matter of printing too much money inflation would be out of control and we would not have the lending reforms that were the policy focus for years. It was a pretty big deal, you might want to research it a bit. Luckily for you the EU crisis is just starting so you can educate yourself on that before looking like a fool again. Hint: Look up Greece and the UK in the news.

Did you get that from my post, because that's exactly what I said, but that's ok, at least you have a fact in that post now, even if you did just copy it from the post you're quoting. DR is a reactionary measure to keep players from farming, an attempt to get people to do more than line up at dungeon entrances and abandon the rest of the game world. They can't control players so no, it's not completely controllable. Anet's greatest weakness in both GW1 and GW2 is overestimating the playerbase.

Grim_Ling, on 24 January 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Spoiler

I again disagree... money was not useless even in the end... it was to the people who had hundreds of stacks of ectos... but there were still high end and low end items (yes I know there were high end items traded just between the most elite) but this lead to a rather stable economy... you could buy rare stuff from venders which kept prices down and somewhat stable.  This is nowhere in GW2.  If they had crafting materials, and collectables in a vender that would keep these cost stable and the cost of crafting down also...  Legendaries could be crafted by amassing LOADS of materials by playing the game or by playing the game getting money and buying the peices that make up the crafting needs.  (I.E. armor in GW1) 15k armor needed money and materials... you could either get all the materials and money or get more money and buy the materials FROM A VENDOR or A PERSON... but 2 ways to get the same thing and they were SET prices. (except for very minor fluxuation on materials)
What this gets you is a mass of people who can get mostly the same things with just normal time and play... then there were the high end items that took MUCH MUCH more dedication... (FoW armor) still same method just alot more effort...

I know this is the same thing we have with normal armor and weapon sets and legendaries now (I am not complaining about the time aspect of this) the difference is now the TP... when you get that select few that amasses ALL the wealth and buys LITERALLY EVERYTHING of 1 particular item in the game and sets their own price is where this economy is going down hill real fast... there is no way for a casual player who wants a cool teir 3 set of armor or a cool weapon that is crafted to get these without playing for months for 1 item because the prices on TP are set by the richest people...

epic fail of an economy...

It's quite difficult to disagree completely with something I wasn't talking about. You skipped the entire point of the post that was repeated more than once. Hint; it's not a comparison of GW2 and GW1's economies point-by-point (although GW1 did not have an economy).

[fatality39]

Specialz, on 22 January 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Guild wars 2 economy is the closest thing you have to a real economy when you compare to every other MMORPG  (eve is the real deal but EvE isnt an MMMORPG). The reason why people like to QQ about this game economy is because they are so used to all the crappy economies that when they meet a new economy that is not the norm, there is nothing to do but complain.


That's such a stupid to say considering the GAME was designed to be B2P from the start, it wasn't all of a sudden changed. The game design principle in fact reflected that very design. So the fact that the game is B2p is irrelevant to anybody but people that like to complain or trolls. It like saying that "IF I Could fly, I wouldn't need to take the bus or drive", well you can't fly and so your point is silly.

Just to add, every unrelease MMO is usually better than all the current MMOs, then a few weeks later the people praising it are going to be complaining and saying how the next unrelease MMO is going to be great. I remember people saying the exact same thing for planetside 2 and when it came out those same people are the one whining how the game fell short of their expectations.

You're right it is manipulated just like a real economy by the banks, but in this case Anet via DR and other behind the scenes means.

[Grim_Ling]

Krazzar, on 24 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

It's quite difficult to disagree completely with something I wasn't talking about. You skipped the entire point of the post that was repeated more than once. Hint; it's not a comparison of GW2 and GW1's economies point-by-point (although GW1 did not have an economy).

This is an odd statement because it lasted for 7 years before GW2 release was announced... I didn't skip your point... the post constantly compares GW1 to GW2.  My main point (which you apparently missed) was that there were vendors that help keep the economy regulated... and that there was no way 1 single real person could mandate a price on 1 specific item... trading post is a big issue...

Also they want to discourage you from farming but to get just 1 item for your legendary you need at least 100g... and for ectos you need at minimum 250 rares (if you get 1 ecto per salvage), and then you need 545k or so karma just for shards (more actually because of clovers...) I know the response to this will be to just play the game IT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE AWHILE... i understand and mine will take a while... LONG WHILE.... you need 250 of each tier 6 collectable which means you will need to kill at least 250 of 1 type of bad guy to get (if each kill gave you a tier 6 which we all know this is VERY far from the truth)
SOOOO for a legendary (which is something they put on the character select thing as something major) you will need to either play for about 2 years or.... wait for it.............FARM (which they are trying to discourage...) have I shown you the flaw with your defense of ANET yet...??? or should I go on...
If your response to that is that "2 years for a legendary is fine" then in my mind your opinion is flawed because as I am ok with 6 - 12 months for a legendary in 2 years this game will have an expansion or just more content that will flaw the economy even more so than it already is...

[Krazzar]

Grim_Ling, on 28 January 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Spoiler

This is an odd statement because it lasted for 7 years before GW2 release was announced... I didn't skip your point... the post constantly compares GW1 to GW2.  My main point (which you apparently missed) was that there were vendors that help keep the economy regulated... and that there was no way 1 single real person could mandate a price on 1 specific item... trading post is a big issue...

Also they want to discourage you from farming but to get just 1 item for your legendary you need at least 100g... and for ectos you need at minimum 250 rares (if you get 1 ecto per salvage), and then you need 545k or so karma just for shards (more actually because of clovers...) I know the response to this will be to just play the game IT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE AWHILE... i understand and mine will take a while... LONG WHILE.... you need 250 of each tier 6 collectable which means you will need to kill at least 250 of 1 type of bad guy to get (if each kill gave you a tier 6 which we all know this is VERY far from the truth)
SOOOO for a legendary (which is something they put on the character select thing as something major) you will need to either play for about 2 years or.... wait for it.............FARM (which they are trying to discourage...) have I shown you the flaw with your defense of ANET yet...??? or should I go on...
If your response to that is that "2 years for a legendary is fine" then in my mind your opinion is flawed because as I am ok with 6 - 12 months for a legendary in 2 years this game will have an expansion or just more content that will flaw the economy even more so than it already is...

An economy is defined as a system that has measurable controls. GW1 did not have an economy, it had a simple transaction system. It was also broken rather quickly, as shown by moving to an alternate currency to hold any value. That's indicative of hyper-inflation, which is not healthy for an economy. Instead of designing controls, which could not be done because of the stand-alone nature of the expansion packs, the devs did nothing. Most players I played with over the years had far more wealth than they could really use. When an expansion pack came out with new armors they could get them as soon as they reached the outpost. Vendors did not regulate the economy at any point and the only supply and demand systems (runes and mats) were exploited numerous times. How do I know? Because everyone in my guild couldn't buy the runes they were saving up for that increased in price ten-fold in one day because of super-wealthy individuals, which was later reset because it was so onnerous.

The universal trading post protects players and eliminates server price exploitation. The trading post keeps the price down for average players making it easier for new players to get what they need. GW2 also goes beyond that with karma and tokens so you can get what you need outside of the economy entirely, which frees up gold. There will always be fluctuations, GW1's limited systems also had that occur, but over time it stabilizes, just like any real market. How do you propose to stop these fluctuations, considering GW1 didn't?

That's probably why they called lengendary weapons long-term goals from the very start. The trading post also accelerates things if that is your goal because you can exchange items that do not help you reach your goal with items that do (obviously not on the same scale).

Edited by Krazzar, 28 January 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Grim_Ling]

Krazzar, on 28 January 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

An economy is defined as a system that has measurable controls. GW1 did not have an economy, it had a simple transaction system. It was also broken rather quickly, as shown by moving to an alternate currency to hold any value. That's indicative of hyper-inflation, which is not healthy for an economy. Instead of designing controls, which could not be done because of the stand-alone nature of the expansion packs, the devs did nothing. Most players I played with over the years had far more wealth than they could really use. When an expansion pack came out with new armors they could get them as soon as they reached the outpost. Vendors did not regulate the economy at any point and the only supply and demand systems (runes and mats) were exploited numerous times. How do I know? Because everyone in my guild couldn't buy the runes they were saving up for that increased in price ten-fold in one day because of super-wealthy individuals, which was later reset because it was so onnerous.

The universal trading post protects players and eliminates server price exploitation. The trading post keeps the price down for average players making it easier for new players to get what they need. GW2 also goes beyond that with karma and tokens so you can get what you need outside of the economy entirely, which frees up gold. There will always be fluctuations, GW1's limited systems also had that occur, but over time it stabilizes, just like any real market. How do you propose to stop these fluctuations, considering GW1 didn't?

That's probably why they called lengendary weapons long-term goals from the very start. The trading post also accelerates things if that is your goal because you can exchange items that do not help you reach your goal with items that do (obviously not on the same scale).

funny that you say that GW1 economy never stabalized... 1 ecto from year 1 to year 7 was anywhere from 6k to 10k (with the very minor SF farm which dropped them to about 3k for a small amount of time)
The universal trading post does not protect players because again as I said in my last post (which you must have missed) there can be 1 single player that manipulates the price of an object (buy all available and reset your own price) that is not an economy that is a failure of a system.
There is no way we can compare a real world market to a game market... there are limitations on materials and items that can be attained / created... no entrepeneurship to generate an moving economy, so with a game economy you need regulators in place (merchants that offer almost all items) I would say not all weapons, and maybe some special armors... (these I  consider special luck play items)

Now I am no economist but I am not turning a blind eye to the problems with the main economic system currently in place...

[hurkit]

Typing from my phone so pardon any errors.

A lot of people complain about aquiring gold and how it should be easier to come by.  People also complain about the cost of items on the TP.

The GW2 economy, for the most part, is pretty good.  Yeah, gold is harder to come by but prices on most items are pretty low.  People need to understand inflation before complaining about money and costs.  So Anet makes it easier to acquire gold in game...so the money supply increases...what do you think happens to the prices in the TP?

With a game wide auction house, the market is truly player driven with supply and demand setting prices.   Yes, buying gold with gems messes with the economy but its effects are not that strong.

Speaking of buying gold with gems...Anet is a business.  The need to make money.  The have put out a product that does not require people to sink more money into the game, but the definitely strive for that and you can't blame them.

For those of you who grieve over buying gold for gems...perhaps you should realize that not all of us can put in 5+ hrs a day into this game.  To me, time is money.  My time is worth "x" amout of dollars. And if don't want or can't put the time in to farm for loadstones then damn right, I may spend some rl cash.  I realize that I need to limit it or else my enjoyment of the game will drastically drop off if I buy everything I need and have no further goals.

Finally, for those who rant over how unfair it is for those with money to buy gold with gems and that those without money get screwed, here is some advice:  get out from behind your computer and put your efforts into improving you station and thus your personal financial situation.

[Jrambo88]

I just wish they would bring back player to player trading, not having that is asinine in my opinion.

[Lordkrall]

Jrambo88, on 03 March 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I just wish they would bring back player to player trading, not having that is asinine in my opinion.

Ah yes, because we all would love to have these and the official forums full with posts about people getting scammed.

[Asha2012]

hurkit, on 01 March 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Typing from my phone so pardon any errors.

A lot of people complain about aquiring gold and how it should be easier to come by.  People also complain about the cost of items on the TP.

The GW2 economy, for the most part, is pretty good.  Yeah, gold is harder to come by but prices on most items are pretty low.  People need to understand inflation before complaining about money and costs.  So Anet makes it easier to acquire gold in game...so the money supply increases...what do you think happens to the prices in the TP?

With a game wide auction house, the market is truly player driven with supply and demand setting prices.   Yes, buying gold with gems messes with the economy but its effects are not that strong.

Speaking of buying gold with gems...Anet is a business.  The need to make money.  The have put out a product that does not require people to sink more money into the game, but the definitely strive for that and you can't blame them.

For those of you who grieve over buying gold for gems...perhaps you should realize that not all of us can put in 5+ hrs a day into this game.  To me, time is money.  My time is worth "x" amout of dollars. And if don't want or can't put the time in to farm for loadstones then damn right, I may spend some rl cash.  I realize that I need to limit it or else my enjoyment of the game will drastically drop off if I buy everything I need and have no further goals.

Finally, for those who rant over how unfair it is for those with money to buy gold with gems and that those without money get screwed, here is some advice:  get out from behind your computer and put your efforts into improving you station and thus your personal financial situation.

Right.  Exactly.  I usually try to make my gold in-game and get the items I want through play but I have a job and a child and can only play a few hours a night.  I needed blue trans stones and figured, for those, I would use my credit card to buy just the gems I needed.  As it turns out I chose to use coin I had earned through playing.  

I like to achieve so I usually will try and farm or play through enough dungeons and elite areas to get what I need:  I'm in no rush.  The only exotic armor I have bought in the TP is named because that is drop only and odds are I could spend a ridiculous amount of time waiting for it drop.  I only needed one piece and it was only a few gold, so I just bought it.

That is the other thing about what I quoted.  I remember seeing something that cost 10-20 gold and thinking that was insane.  That was before I hit level 80, maxed some crafting disciplines and starting learning dungeons.  And now there are dailies (you get plenty of salable loot in the process of doing the dailies as well as the laurel rewards themselves.  Now a 20 gold item is pretty attainable, even for someone like me that chips away at mapping and such.  I find I gain karma and laurels rather quickly when I'm not "watching the water boil".  The items you can "buy" with karma and laurels sells decently and usually salvages into mats that sell well too.

I do get a little impatient with sales because I've started listing rather than going for lowest asking price.  Still, so far, everything has eventually sold so the economy is working well enough for me.

[Jrambo88]

.

Lordkrall, on 03 March 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ah yes, because we all would love to have these and the official forums full with posts about people getting scammed.

Posted Today, 10:39 PM
Since there is the Tp it would be completely optional to use trade option or not. I played guild wars for all those years and never once did I get scammed. Majority of times scams happen I think it's idiotic people whining because they vastly undersold something or they didnt know what they were buying.

Edited by Mockingjay74, 04 March 2013 - 10:30 PM.
Removed inflammatory sentence.

[Perm Shadow Form]

Economy? What economy? There's not even a real player to player interaction.
Then again, I'm sure they did this to "encourage" players to use gem store... somehow.

[Trei]

Perm Shadow Form, on 03 March 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Economy? What economy? There's not even a real player to player interaction.
Then again, I'm sure they did this to "encourage" players to use gem store... somehow.

You are absolutely right!

I'm sure the skies over queensdale is blue to "encourage" players to use the gem store too.

I also think Arenanet is spelled with a capital A to "encourage" players to use the gem store too!

[Lordkrall]

Jrambo88, on 03 March 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Posted Today, 10:39 PM
If you get scammed you're an idiot. Since there is the Tp it would be completely optional to use trade option or not. I played guild wars for all those years and never once did I get scammed. Majority of times scams happen I think it's idiotic people whining because they vastly undersold something or they didnt know what they were buying.

Indeed, but the forums will still be filled by those people.
There are already several posts up by people that used the mail system for trading and got scammed.

[Jrambo88]

Lordkrall, on 04 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Indeed, but the forums will still be filled by those people.
There are already several posts up by people that used the mail system for trading and got scammed.

Yeah I've read them, you're asking to get scammed by using the mail system. That's why they need a simple trade window.

[Lordkrall]

Jrambo88, on 04 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Yeah I've read them, you're asking to get scammed by using the mail system. That's why they need a simple trade window.

And how would that stop scamming?
As long as the trading is in the hands of the players people will get scammed.

[Soki]

Lordkrall, on 04 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

And how would that stop scamming?
As long as the trading is in the hands of the players people will get scammed.

At the point you're at, no degree of logical reasoning would get through to you.

Direct trade is based on the trust system, as it is. That is basically enabling scammers - and pushing people to use the TP.
ANet has decided to not include direct trade for a reason: To push people to use the TP and stimulate the economy.
It has nothing to do with making gold-sending more easily trackable. A mail system is just direct, one-way trade. It even requires the other player to be online.

If there were a trade window, far, far less scams would go on than they do now.
If you disagree with that, you're actively trying to be wrong.

[Lordkrall]

Soki, on 04 March 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

At the point you're at, no degree of logical reasoning would get through to you.

Direct trade is based on the trust system, as it is. That is basically enabling scammers - and pushing people to use the TP.
ANet has decided to not include direct trade for a reason: To push people to use the TP and stimulate the economy.
It has nothing to do with making gold-sending more easily trackable. A mail system is just direct, one-way trade. It even requires the other player to be online.

If there were a trade window, far, far less scams would go on than they do now.
If you disagree with that, you're actively trying to be wrong.

We had a trade window in GW1 and yet the forums where full of people whining about getting spammed. So, how would a trade window stop spamming?

[Soki]

Lordkrall, on 04 March 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

We had a trade window in GW1 and yet the forums where full of people whining about getting spammed. So, how would a trade window stop spamming?

So your opinion is that, if we had a trade window in GW2, there would suddenly be an exuberant increase of "spam posts" about scams?
Aside from a trade window solving more problems than it causes, I think the real issue is that ANet doesn't have the tools to deal with Customer Support tickets for item-loss, in GW2.
They literally have no tools to see a player's inventory history, like every other MMO in existence. I know this because they basically told me so.

I misclicked and bought something I didn't intend at an NPC vendor. I ticketed ANet about it, asking if it could be sold back to the NPC for the currency I used. They said that they're unable to see a player's inventory, and that they don't have a way to view logs of transactions.

So sure, maybe there would be quite a few "I got hacked!" posts - but no more than current, with the trust-system.
Spam posts on forums aren't the thing you should be thinking about, though. You should be thinking about how shoddy it is that ANet doesn't have basic tools to track player interactions - particularly with their gold-farmer problem.

[Lordkrall]

Soki, on 04 March 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

So your opinion is that, if we had a trade window in GW2, there would suddenly be an exuberant increase of "spam posts" about scams?
Aside from a trade window solving more problems than it causes, I think the real issue is that ANet doesn't have the tools to deal with Customer Support tickets for item-loss, in GW2.
They literally have no tools to see a player's inventory history, like every other MMO in existence. I know this because they basically told me so.

I misclicked and bought something I didn't intend at an NPC vendor. I ticketed ANet about it, asking if it could be sold back to the NPC for the currency I used. They said that they're unable to see a player's inventory, and that they don't have a way to view logs of transactions.

So sure, maybe there would be quite a few "I got hacked!" posts - but no more than current, with the trust-system.
Spam posts on forums aren't the thing you should be thinking about, though. You should be thinking about how shoddy it is that ANet doesn't have basic tools to track player interactions - particularly with their gold-farmer problem.

It would. When we put the powers in the hands of the users they will misuse it and people will whine about it when they are victims of it. That is true for every single multiplayer game with direct trading ever. If someone gets scammed they WILL go on the forums and whine about it (we do after all already have posts like that, even without the trade window).
Giving people an easier way to scam people is simply stupid, and would overtime require much more manpower on ArenaNets part.

They very much have tools available to see peoples inventory and its history. They simply don't use it for people doing a mistake. We actually have proof that they can do this, with the bans issued soon after release with the karma exploit.

[Soki]

Lordkrall, on 04 March 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

It would. When we put the powers in the hands of the users they will misuse it and people will whine about it when they are victims of it. That is true for every single multiplayer game with direct trading ever. If someone gets scammed they WILL go on the forums and whine about it (we do after all already have posts like that, even without the trade window).
Giving people an easier way to scam people is simply stupid, and would overtime require much more manpower on ArenaNets part.

They very much have tools available to see peoples inventory and its history. They simply don't use it for people doing a mistake. We actually have proof that they can do this, with the bans issued soon after release with the karma exploit.

When we put power in the hands of the users they will misuse it and whine about it?
Sounds awful totalitarian of you.

Restricting the userbase based on nothing but general mistrust in them to be sensible is the sort of attitude that players never appreciate.

How could a scammer have an easier way to scam people than people having to rely on the trust system?
Currently, the people who can get scammed includes...Pretty much everybody who wants to do a direct trade of resources without incurring the tax. Which is many, many people.

With a trade system, the only people who can get scam are people who don't think before trading - or people who get taken advantage of by a flaw in the trade window (which is fairly likely, given ANet's history of shoddy transaction windows and people outright losing gear right out of their bags).

If it weren't ANet, I'd say it's best to have a trade window. But it's ANet.

Edited by Soki, 04 March 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Jetjordan]

raise you hand if someone in GW1 opened trade with you and didn't initially put in what they agreed upon.  You then called them on it and they said something like "OMG my bad I am teh noobz lol"   Then when you try again its the same thing.  You don't accept, they drop out of you party and disappear   Yeah, I want that back.....  Or wiat, even better, the guy that mis-lists what he has and then says "this is teh thing u wanted accept pls."  That guy was great too.  Even better yet, the guy that just opens trade with you and shows 7 green weapons that no one wants, I miss him so.

We do not need trade window.  My guild trades over mail because there is trust there, everything else I need I'm happy to get from the TP.  Gold sinks work whether you want to accept that or not.

[Soki]

Lordkrall, on 04 March 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

It would. When we put the powers in the hands of the users they will misuse it and people will whine about it when they are victims of it. That is true for every single multiplayer game with direct trading ever. If someone gets scammed they WILL go on the forums and whine about it (we do after all already have posts like that, even without the trade window).
Giving people an easier way to scam people is simply stupid, and would overtime require much more manpower on ArenaNets part.

They very much have tools available to see peoples inventory and its history. They simply don't use it for people doing a mistake. We actually have proof that they can do this, with the bans issued soon after release with the karma exploit.

They didn't restore gear to people who had gear disappear straight from their bags due to a bug with transformation or zoning in to other servers - so I can only conclude that they truly don't have the tools to alter a player's inventory.

The ANet rep worded it to me as:
"We don't have the tools to see a player's inventory history".
Perhaps they can see Karma or Gold gains/losses?

[two maces]

Perm Shadow Form, on 19 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

GW2 needs player to player trading. Would fix everything, but of course, it's not casual friendly because it's easier to scam someone who doesn't know the correct prices.

I wouldn't call it scamming if it's within a certain range. Most of the goods have a baseline that fluctuates slightly, you could either try to buy a bit lower than the baseline or sell a bit higher than the baseline. It's about the same as stock trading.

There are obviously some outliers, but it happens in every game.

[Minion]

There are several solutions... Fixed TP prices, a fixed range of prices per item or removal of the TP in general.

I much prefer the more intimate approach to selling. You can still have a place to go where you place a sale listing, but within that, you can display your own descriptions, price range and more importantly, the requirement to meet up and make the trade face to face.

I don't care too much about ease of use, but it's more realistic in a fantasy MMO; the game is currently a Wall Street rip off, and I am tired of reality getting in my MMO.

[hurkit]

Minion, on 05 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

There are several solutions... Fixed TP prices, a fixed range of prices per item or removal of the TP in general.

I much prefer the more intimate approach to selling. You can still have a place to go where you place a sale listing, but within that, you can display your own descriptions, price range and more importantly, the requirement to meet up and make the trade face to face.

I don't care too much about ease of use, but it's more realistic in a fantasy MMO; the game is currently a Wall Street rip off, and I am tired of reality getting in my MMO.

Prices are what the market demands.  "Fixing" is a horrible solution.  Who gets to decide the "Fixed" pricing?