237 replies to this topic

[AlixIcebane]

If you add ways to spend your money like make crafting more interesting give nice cosmetics for people that have all crafts maxed and such.

Drainning the players money with every action they do is not a good way to drain money from the rich...

If everything wasnt boa trade would actually be livelier. But then again GW2 is far from being perfect, lets hope the devs stop acting retarded and actually improve the game with the next content patches because another shit fractal (or whatever the name of the new empty zone was) will be the last straw for many people.

[cyclopsje]

Yes it sucks big time economy in this game is a epic fail.

[Krazzar]

AlixIcebane, on 19 January 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

If you add ways to spend your money like make crafting more interesting give nice cosmetics for people that have all crafts maxed and such.

Drainning the players money with every action they do is not a good way to drain money from the rich...

If everything wasnt boa trade would actually be livelier. But then again GW2 is far from being perfect, lets hope the devs stop acting retarded and actually improve the game with the next content patches because another shit fractal (or whatever the name of the new empty zone was) will be the last straw for many people.

Gold sinks are never meant to drain money from the rich, they're meant to keep the entire economy at a lower state than the rich so that everyone can participate and keep more people from becoming rich. That means it is ineffective once you gain wealth, but is effective for everyone below that point. Unfortunately there is little that can be done to remove wealth from the rich without simply taking it, and that would be less well received than any gold sink.

[cyclopsje]

jthamind, on 19 January 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

the only economy i can compare GW2's to is WoW's, and i think WoW's is much better. things that were expensive deserved to be expensive, things that were cheap deserved to be, things that were rare were priced so, and crafting actually meant something. it probably wasn't perfect by any stretch, but it never once felt frustrated with it, like i often am with GW2's economy.

I played wow for ashort while a year ago and i must say a game out so long and ore was worth money still. Even the best ore in gw2 isnt worth anything. And with guesting ore will be worth nothing anymore

[Illein]

Was a bit disappointed the author of that massively article just threw that out there without giving any real clues as to why he/she thinks so, besides that the demand & supply situation seems to be an "epic trainwreck".

It's certainly nothing outstanding, but I don't see how it compares badly to other MMORPGs I've played (though it doesn't outshine them either).

[matsif]

Virdiana Sovari, on 19 January 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

This is the one best thing about GW1's economy. Player to player trading.
It encouraged being active player, talking with others. Also, because of this, there was a totally awesome trader's community.

I never said player to player trading as an idea was bad.  EvE offers both a large trading post and direct player transactions, and it is probably the best economy in any mmo I've played.  As the single form of economy player to player trading is bad, as it was in GW1.  As I also said, by actually playing the game you could easily make enough to offset the lack of any auction house or trading post in GW1.  Without the help of price checking and WTB/WTS forums (such as gwguru), there was nothing to really dictate the sale price of any item, and there was no real way to sell/buy other than sitting in LA/spamadan repeating "WTS [x]" in the trade chat and praying a buyer was around at that time.  Until these services were provided through forums and such there was no way to guarantee you would ever sell a rare item, and prices were wildly unpredictable at points, especially early on in the game.

Not to mention the scams that are prevalent in any player to player trade economy.  To a developer, it makes more sense to not allow player to player trading to completely get rid of almost all scamming overall, and anyone who does complain all they have to say is "mail is not made for item trading, please use the trading post."

[Xsiriss]

For regular stuff it's fine, there are plenty of ways getting max gear without spending too much (I now have 6 lvl80's fully geared and it hasn't been particularly hard).

However it's the 'top tier' skins and gear that's the problem. The supply and demand for mats/drops is so out of place with the reliance on sheer RNG, where luck is rewarded more than skill/time investment.

[fatality39]

Imo, GW2 is bad.  The DR alone makes it bad, but the manipulation from Anet that entices people to buy gems makes it even worse.  Crafting?  What's the point of it besdes leveling up?  I truly feel as though its an action rpg, with a lobby type atmosphere.  You don't leave LA or rather there is zero need to do so.  I haven't played it in a few months and likely won't in the future.  Why?  three reasons:  bland game, bland economy, DR/Anet controlled atmosphere with making money at all.  I guess you can farm gems right?  Go to their site and start a post that dislikes any part of their economy.  See how many infractions you can get.

Edited by fatality39, 19 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Lordkrall]

Ah yes. I was wondering when someone would come here with baseless accusations about ArenaNet "forcing" people into buying gems for real money

[Juanele]

The massively author never really went into why she thought that GW2 had the worst mmo economy.

It seems fine to me, pretty much like most mmo economies albeit with a larger scale since the tradepost is global.

Edited by Juanele, 19 January 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[Redhawk2007]

Krazzar, on 19 January 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

What is the difference between a game with gold sinks and a game without? GW2 and GW1. In GW1 the wealth grew to be so large with nothing to spend it on an alternate currency was adopted because gold was so plentiful it become worthless. You have a system where wealth can be generated from nothing, therefore some of it has to go back to nothing through gold sinks. In a real-world economy there is a limit to the wealth that exists and can be generated, and yet there are proportionally much higher gold sinks through taxes, cost of living, and other expenses. Unfortunately your example would work against your argument; there there is no real downside because no matter what you are doing you will get 15g per week, you really should have set them equal at 20 instead of 15 if you wanted to make an anti-gold sink argument. If your actions are dictated by a currency that is not real you may want to reevaluate your motivations, they are clearly contradictory.

Don't forget GW2 also has methods of acquiring what you need without ever using gold, that being karma and tokens.

I never player GW1 so can't speak for that, but the two examples I gave are equal in terms of inflation because the net discretionary income available to the average player is the same, 15g. The difference is that once achieves this without gold sinks and the other doesn't. There is only so much money the average player can and will make by playing the game.

Inflation and deflation are inevitable in any player-driven economy. Inflation is only a problem if it gets out of hand and even then this is an artificial economy, so it can be easily dealt with by increasing rewards to compensate (as WoW does) or by price fixing in the TP.

The economy is but a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is there so players can get the items they need to play the game, nothing more. The bottom line is not how much inflation there is, but how much real time do you have to invest in the game to afford the things you need to buy. An economy where people are kept poor to prevent them from creating inflation through increased demand for goods makes as much sense as destroying villages to save them from communism. Inflation may be less, but people still can't afford to buy the stuff they need.

In GW2, inflation is caused more by excessive scarcity and monopolization by speculators than it is by excessive demand. If you need x amount of ectos to craft your armor, you need the same amount regardless of the cost so demand for necessities will be stable unless the prices become insanely out of reach of the average player. Gold sinks such as they are aren't much of a hedge against inflation, as people respond to high waypoint costs by not using waypoints as much, which does little to control inflation. Perversely, it may even increase it, as people tend to earn more money killing stuff along the way while avoiding waypoint costs than they would earn if waypoints were free.

You would have to die over 1000 times in WvW to equal the cost of a single Abyss dye (18g last I checked). So how much of a hedge against inflation is that, really? It just discourages people form participating in WvW and that sucks.

Sacrificing game play and player satisfaction to useless gold sinks is foolish. The reason players are kept poor in this game is to drive them to the gem shop, not to control inflation. Inflation is good for Anet because it increases demand for money and thus increases gem purchases. It just sucks for the players.

[jirayasan]

I like when the economy goes up and down, it's realistic.

[Krazzar]

Redhawk2007, on 19 January 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

Spoiler

I never player GW1 so can't speak for that, but the two examples I gave are equal in terms of inflation because the net discretionary income available to the average player is the same, 15g. The difference is that once achieves this without gold sinks and the other doesn't. There is only so much money the average player can and will make by playing the game.

Inflation and deflation are inevitable in any player-driven economy. Inflation is only a problem if it gets out of hand and even then this is an artificial economy, so it can be easily dealt with by increasing rewards to compensate (as WoW does) or by price fixing in the TP.

The economy is but a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is there so players can get the items they need to play the game, nothing more. The bottom line is not how much inflation there is, but how much real time do you have to invest in the game to afford the things you need to buy. An economy where people are kept poor to prevent them from creating inflation through increased demand for goods makes as much sense as destroying villages to save them from communism. Inflation may be less, but people still can't afford to buy the stuff they need.

In GW2, inflation is caused more by excessive scarcity and monopolization by speculators than it is by excessive demand. If you need x amount of ectos to craft your armor, you need the same amount regardless of the cost so demand for necessities will be stable unless the prices become insanely out of reach of the average player. Gold sinks such as they are aren't much of a hedge against inflation, as people respond to high waypoint costs by not using waypoints as much, which does little to control inflation. Perversely, it may even increase it, as people tend to earn more money killing stuff along the way while avoiding waypoint costs than they would earn if waypoints were free.

You would have to die over 1000 times in WvW to equal the cost of a single Abyss dye (18g last I checked). So how much of a hedge against inflation is that, really? It just discourages people form participating in WvW and that sucks.

Sacrificing game play and player satisfaction to useless gold sinks is foolish. The reason players are kept poor in this game is to drive them to the gem shop, not to control inflation. Inflation is good for Anet because it increases demand for money and thus increases gem purchases. It just sucks for the players.

Did you want to address my post at any point?

I know there is no difference, you are not supporting your argument because there is no difference. How can something be so bad if there is no difference?

Those controls are what make an economy.

People don't need to buy everything, they can get everything they need without spending any gold. I know because I've done it numerous times. Even so they can very easily afford to buy the things they need.

Demand is not static because a different number of players want a different number of X good at any given time. An economy is not one transaction by one player. As I said years ago, waypoint fees are incentive to play the game and become immersed rather than a hardcore goldsink, but numerous small goldsinks are more effective than fewer large goldsinks because you remove gold from numerous sources covering many different activities without being intrusive. Goldsinks won't ever fix inflation, but they definitely help.

Again you choose to work against your own argument. If it's not a big deal how does it discourage people from participating in WvW? Considering the queues for WvW it doesn't.

Unfortunately for your argument, game play and player satisfaction are not negatively impacted. If any of your statements were true or economically sound you might have a weak point. Ending with a conspiracy theory is always a strong way to go.

[The Comfy Chair]

Some people don't think there's a 'good economy' because it's difficult to make tons of gold from the TP easily. The fact you can't easily exploit the TP is in itself a good sign. Supply and demand matching closely is a very good thing. Don't get all huffy because you can't make a quick 100g for doing nothing.

GW2 has a good economy because you normally can get what you need for a relatively low price. Inflation is also under control, just check out gw2spidy on most items. Most exotic weapons are under 4g for example, that's pretty damn good.

Can you log on right now and buy all the crafting materials you want for reasonable prices? oh, yes, you can! Most of the very highest end raw materials cost the same as finishing 3 level 70-80 hearts, and you can get lower end stuff by the bucket load for not much at all.

It's a game where playing the game is rewarding, and TP hogging isn't so much for the people who don't dedicate themselves to it (there is definitely still money to be had, you just have to be on the ball, almost like, wait for it ... a real life economy). Good job anet.

Edited by The Comfy Chair, 19 January 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[MonoAudioStereo]

To my mind economy is broken because of the trading post. Its the worst auction house I have ever seen in MMO. When you want to sell something it tells you automatically for how much you should sell it which is bad idea. Now when people put something into auction house they sell it for minimal price and they practically get the same money when selling it to npc. The only way to get money is to farm it at the events. Its dissapointing that in WvWvW you nearly dont get money at all. After like 2 hours I manage to get only 1g... Thats because drop rates and drop value are horrendous. You get money only for completing tasks like taking over the castles etc.

Edited by MonoAudioStereo, 19 January 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[The Comfy Chair]

MonoAudioStereo, on 19 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

The only way to get money is to farm it at the events. Its dissapointing that in WvWvW you nearly dont get money at all. After like 2 hours I manage to get only 1g... Thats because drop rates and drop value are horrendous. You get money only for completing tasks like taking over the castles etc.

I get money and i don't excessively farm (I have a bifrost and the total amount of time i've spent farming cursed shore is about 5 hours across 4 months, and i've never mega farmed a single dungeon) o.O although i mainly wander around the maps and/or do dungeons*. WvW definitely needs some improvements to rewards, but they're working on that apparently.

*also, either my luck has changed drastically or exotics are a lot more common now, it took about 400 hours for my first exo, since then (~200 hours) i've had about 15-20 exotic drops from mobs.

Edited by The Comfy Chair, 19 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[fatality39]

Lordkrall, on 19 January 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Ah yes. I was wondering when someone would come here with baseless accusations about ArenaNet "forcing" people into buying gems for real money

Yes, sheep.  They like you very much.  Also, how does DR make everyone feel?  Only game I've personally played where you get nailed for trying to make money in a legit fashion.  No, it isn't the worst mmo economy, but this is a niche game as people are starting to see. it did/does well for those who like this kinda hybrid mmo.  It has its merits, but it doesn't have the true MMO feel whether economy, simplistic combat, or standing in LA lobby until you port into fotm or wvw.

[The_Blades]

I dont know about much people here, but when i want real life economy i go to the market and buy stuff with real life money. its a F**ing game, the tp as it is sucks, small margins all over.

Like Monoaudio said, something that immediately tells you for how much you should sell its a crappy system in a game. Im not saying it has no advantages, like buying whatever you want for small prices. but the biggest advantage is for the cash shop,

[Loperdos]

MonoAudioStereo, on 19 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

To my mind economy is broken because of the trading post. Its the worst auction house I have ever seen in MMO. When you want to sell something it tells you automatically for how much you should sell it which is bad idea. Now when people put something into auction house they sell it for minimal price and they practically get the same money when selling it to npc. The only way to get money is to farm it at the events. Its dissapointing that in WvWvW you nearly dont get money at all. After like 2 hours I manage to get only 1g... Thats because drop rates and drop value are horrendous. You get money only for completing tasks like taking over the castles etc.

The_Blades, on 19 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I dont know about much people here, but when i want real life economy i go to the market and buy stuff with real life money. its a F**ing game, the tp as it is sucks, small margins all over.

Like Monoaudio said, something that immediately tells you for how much you should sell its a crappy system in a game. Im not saying it has no advantages, like buying whatever you want for small prices. but the biggest advantage is for the cash shop,

Just a point of clarification.  The TP isn't telling you how much to sell your item for.  Its telling you that there is someone who offered to buy it, right now at this very moment, for that particular price.  The TP itself has nothing to do with that price, your peers in-game have everything to do with that price.  If you don't want to sell it for that price, you make a custom offer; the trade-off is that your item may not sell right away, quickly, or even at all.  But the TP is not telling you what to sell your items for.

[The_Blades]

thats a techicality imo, at the end of the day the prices stated there tell you exactly for how much you can sell at that given time. ofc i can deviate my price a few copper and hope it raises. but then ill be risking the % the tp eats for a small (very small) increase of profit.

[matsif]

The Comfy Chair, on 19 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

*also, either my luck has changed drastically or exotics are a lot more common now, it took about 400 hours for my first exo, since then (~200 hours) i've had about 15-20 exotic drops from mobs.

I've played for ~600 hours as well and have only ever gotten 5 exotics as drops (disregarding gambling in the genie's toilet and map completion).  3 of those have been in HotW, 1 was in CoF last night, and 1 was in CoE.  I've never seen a world PvE exotic drop.  I've maybe gotten 50-60 rares as drops/chest loot, most of which came from dungeons.  Either RNG hates me or I have no luck whatsoever.  The other night in CoE with my guild 2 members of my group got multiple charged lodestones, and I didn't even get a green, and I was the one running a magic find booster and omnom bar.  

point being, just because you are doing fine from drops doesn't mean everyone else is.  yes my case and your case may be extremes, but for every case of someone being extremely "lucky" I've found, I've seen at least twice as many people who are closer to my case of hardly ever getting anything.  for the past 2 weeks I haven't even gotten a green weapon to drop off a dragon chest or orr temple event, have snagged maybe 3 rares total (most of which were worthless on the tp and didn't salvage to ecto with a mystic kit), and that exotic in CoF last night was the first exotic I've seen outside of buying them with tokens in over a month.

[Flavvor]

The only thing I hate are when Rares and/or exotics are soulbound on drops. All i can do i salvage them. if that.....

Edited by Flavvor, 20 January 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[Gileas898]

The Comfy Chair, on 19 January 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Some people don't think there's a 'good economy' because it's difficult to make tons of gold from the TP easily. The fact you can't easily exploit the TP is in itself a good sign. Supply and demand matching closely is a very good thing. Don't get all huffy because you can't make a quick 100g for doing nothing.

GW2 has a good economy because you normally can get what you need for a relatively low price. Inflation is also under control, just check out gw2spidy on most items. Most exotic weapons are under 4g for example, that's pretty damn good.

Can you log on right now and buy all the crafting materials you want for reasonable prices? oh, yes, you can! Most of the very highest end raw materials cost the same as finishing 3 level 70-80 hearts, and you can get lower end stuff by the bucket load for not much at all.

It's a game where playing the game is rewarding, and TP hogging isn't so much for the people who don't dedicate themselves to it (there is definitely still money to be had, you just have to be on the ball, almost like, wait for it ... a real life economy). Good job anet.

Except you can easily make another 100g if you have a lot more than that already. This is what people have a problem with I think. It's very hard unless you get lucky to hit that plateau, but once you do you can multiply your money through just playing the TP.

I also think that crafting is a bit shafted because of the TP spanning across all servers. They have such a cool discovery system but they don't utilize it enough. If they didn't grey out all mats you CAN'T use, and told you exactly what rating the recipe needed, it would be a lot more fun. A cool discovery could for example be;

- Harvest a 4-leaf clover from some cave-jumping-puzzle-esque thing.
- Obtain a Pristine rabbit's foot from the Uncategorized Fractal.
- Craft an infused Horseshoe with smithing + artificer.
- Then combine it all with an Orichalcum chain to craft an exotic +MF amulet.

This would be a hell of a lot more fun, and more rewarding, than simply adding X amount of T6, Y amount of ectos and Z amount of Orichalcum for every single jeweler recipe in the game.

[Trei]

MonoAudioStereo, on 19 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

To my mind economy is broken because of the trading post. Its the worst auction house I have ever seen in MMO. When you want to sell something it tells you automatically for how much you should sell it which is bad idea. Now when people put something into auction house they sell it for minimal price and they practically get the same money when selling it to npc. The only way to get money is to farm it at the events. Its dissapointing that in WvWvW you nearly dont get money at all. After like 2 hours I manage to get only 1g... Thats because drop rates and drop value are horrendous. You get money only for completing tasks like taking over the castles etc.

It's not an Auction House...

[HawkofStorms]

I feel like this guy has never played or even heard of eastern MMOs like Lineage or Aion.

[VanderBeltLegacy]

i have to say the part im not fond of, is the gem exchange for gold, giving the richer people an advantage at exchanging gem for gold and buying all materials/Commander title etc. with ease, making legendary weapons seem to be "oh hey, i didnt have to farm for s**t to get my legendary weapon" or "damn i have been farming my a** off to get my legendary", also the commander title, i like some players who have it know what there doing in WvW etc., but it should rely on skill like per say trading so many badges of honor for it, not "im a use my credit card, buy a butt load of gems, trade them for gold, and go buy it" or "im a play the Trading Post and go buy me that title", titles should be earned, not bought, theres plenty of in game store stuff that anet can turn profit on, I.E mini pets, booster packs, lion keys etc., but trading gems for gold is in my opinion stupid, because as i already noted it gives richer people an unfair advantage over the less fortunate.

[Redhawk2007]

Krazzar, on 19 January 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Did you want to address my post at any point?

I know there is no difference, you are not supporting your argument because there is no difference. How can something be so bad if there is no difference?

Those controls are what make an economy.

People don't need to buy everything, they can get everything they need without spending any gold. I know because I've done it numerous times. Even so they can very easily afford to buy the things they need.

Demand is not static because a different number of players want a different number of X good at any given time. An economy is not one transaction by one player. As I said years ago, waypoint fees are incentive to play the game and become immersed rather than a hardcore goldsink, but numerous small goldsinks are more effective than fewer large goldsinks because you remove gold from numerous sources covering many different activities without being intrusive. Goldsinks won't ever fix inflation, but they definitely help.

Again you choose to work against your own argument. If it's not a big deal how does it discourage people from participating in WvW? Considering the queues for WvW it doesn't.

Unfortunately for your argument, game play and player satisfaction are not negatively impacted. If any of your statements were true or economically sound you might have a weak point. Ending with a conspiracy theory is always a strong way to go.

It is you that has failed to address my post. I pointed out in one sentence that there is no difference as far as inflation is concerned between an economy with gold sinks and one without where the net discretionary income is the same. I didn't state that there is no difference between these two economies. You state that you "know there is no difference" but then repeat the "gold sinks are necessary" mantra that is beaten to death in these forums but never proven. There is a difference in that the economy with gold sinks discourages people from participating in activities the same way sin taxes do in the real world.

You state that I argue against myself, but my arguments are rationally consistent. I stated that:

1. Gold sinks such as WvW repairs and waypoints have little effect on inflation because people avoid using waypoints and participating as much in WvW.

2. Because people avoid these costs, it has a huge impact on game play, because zones have become deserted and people avoid WvW because of the costs, which tend to be high for the uninitiated or people on losing servers.

I never said that demand was static. I said that the demand for certain necessities like ectos will tend to be stable regardless of price because people need a certain amount of these items regardless of what they cost. In other words, raising the price won't effect demand much. If you need 5 ectos for a piece of armor you need the same amount whether they cost 20s or 40s. This is not the same as saying demand is static.

Accusations of "conspiracy theory" are a cheap tactic to demonize critical thinking and derail debate. Your theories have no more evidence to back them than do mine, but mine are consistent with observed reality and common sense. Observed reality is that gold sinks have not controlled inflation in this game, zones are deserted, and WvW participation is a lot less than it could be on some servers. My server is currently going against Maguuma and Isle of Janthir. Maguuma heavily outnumbers us, and Isle of Janthir has barely showed up, making this a 2-way contest. Unless you're in a hard core WvW server you are going to find yourself heavily outmanned with a lot of your "team" there for the jumping puzzle or map completion and repair costs will reflect that reality.

Common sense tells you Anet wants you to use the gem shop as much as possible and has designed the game to steer you in that direction. They would be fools to imagine they could make money if everything you needed was free in the game.

[RecentlyTaken]

Hardly the worst economy ever. There have been other games that suffered from SEVERE hyper inflation, like ff11 for example.

[Nabuko Darayon]

Sorry but I agree. To  me it just feels terrible. Instead of ANet putting a starting price on all items they let people decide how much something is going to sell and of course manipulators are taking advantage of this

[I'm Squirrel]

The economy is pretty horrible. In a way, it's "pay to win", considering you can pay real money --> gems --> gold --> buy whatever you want.

Like others have said, the trading post is just plain stupid as well; for a whole lot of reasons.