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#1 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:00 AM

I've already had these numbers lying around from various other threads I've done so I decided to put them together so we can figure out what the ideal team is, DPS-wise.

- Tooltips take into account power and weapon damage.  They do not account for crit chance, crit damage, or other damage boosts from sigils or traits that do not directly affect stats (i.e. Fiery Wrath).  The "base" damage is the amount from the tooltip alone, plus any traits that affect base damage for certain skills only, i.e. Grenadier or Writ of Persistence.
- Skills do not begin recharging until they finish activating.  As such, the "additional" damage per second from a skill is how much it would do over the auto-attack in the same amount of time (the "net" value) divided by the activation time plus the recharge time.
- Trait damage boosts appear to be compounding, i.e. Fiery Wrath + Radiant Power (+10% each) = +21% damage, not +20%.
- Ergo, to find overall damage, I am using the formula [base damage] x [1 + (crit chance x crit damage)] x [trait damage bonuses].
- Major traits are listed below.  Minor traits are not listed, but if the points are there for them, you can assume I accounted for them.
- Buffs that cannot be maintained permanently are adjusted by their uptime.  For example, if a class can maintain 50% fury uptime, I have treated that as a 10% boost to crit chance.
- I am assuming Sigil of Force on 2H weapons, and Sigil of Force and Sigil of Accuracy on 1H.  I don't think the Force sigils stack.  The exception is engineer, for which I am assuming Sigil of Force and Sigil of Earth.

Guardian:
Might: 5 stacks to all allies (from Empowering Might)

Tome of Wrath:
Quickness: 3s, twice
Might: 5 stacks for 10 seconds, three times
Fury: 20s

Greatsword (10/30/0/30/0, berserker) - Fiery Wrath, Writ of Persistence, Empowering Might
Auto: 645 + 645 + 968 = 941/s
WW = 3504 total, 1152 net, 92/s
Symbol = 3101 total, 2160 net, 103/s
Bind = 3213, 2272 net, 73/s
DPS = 1209 base, 3252 solo, 5455 with all buffs

Warrior:
Might: 10 stacks to self (from various traits), 3 to allies (from For Great Justice)
Vulnerability: 10 stacks (from GS auto and Rending Strikes)
Fury: 100% uptime (with Banner of Discipline and For Great Justice)

Battle Standard:
Might: 3.33 stacks for 65 seconds
Fury: 65s

Greatsword (10/30/0/0/30, berserker) - Berserker's Power, Forceful Greatsword, Heightened Focus, Rending Strikes
Auto = 564, 564, 726 = 745/s
HB = 3544 total, 592 net, 168/s
Bladetrail = 1210 total, 465 net, 36/s
Rush = 1371 total, 626 net, 37/s
DPS = 968 base, 3534 solo, 4802 with all buffs

Engineer:
Might: 10.5 on self (from HGH and Elixir B), 3.5 on party (from HGH tosses)
Vulnerability: 20 stacks (from Steel Packed Powder and Precise Sights)
Fury: 63% uptime (from both Elixir B skills) on self, 16% uptime on party

Engineer grenade (30/10/0/30/0, rabid) - Grenadier, Short Fuse, Shrapnel, Precise Sights, HGH, Long-Lasting Elixirs, Potent Elixirs, HGH
Direct:
Grenade = 450/s
Shrapnel G. = 747 total, 297 net, 59/s
Freeze G. = 681 total, 231 net,  14/s
Poison G. = 273 total, -177 net, -8/s
Total = 515/s
Condition:
Sharpshooter = 5 ticks per proc = 2.08 ticks/s
Shrapnel = 21 ticks per proc = 9.45 ticks/s
Shrapnel G. = 63 ticks = 12.6 ticks/s
Sigil of Earth = 8 ticks per proc, 58% chance of proc/sec = 4.65 ticks/s
Poison Grenade = 100% poison uptime
Total = 28.78 ticks/s (caps at 25), 100% poison uptime
DPS = 515 (direct) + 2349 (condition) base, 950 (direct) + 2835 (condition) solo, 1218 (direct) + 3537 (condition) with all buffs

Mesmer:
Time Warp:
Quickness: 10s

Sword (30/30/0/0/10, berserker) - Compounding Power, Empowering Mantras
Auto: 484 + 484 + 807 = 740/sec
Blurred Frenzy: 1936 total, 1196 net, 114/sec
Bonuses: Compounding Power (+9%), Empowering Mantras (+12%), Wastrel's Punishment (+5%)
Total: 854 base, 2152 solo, 3698 with all buffs

Phantasmal Warden: 73 x 12 = 876/14s = 63/sec base, 131 solo, 225 with all buffs
NOTE: I think the tooltip is incorrect.  It looks like the phantasm actually hits 3x as much per hit as what the tooltip says.  If that's the case the actual damage would be 393/sec, or 675 with all buffs.
NOTE 2: For the purposes of these calculations, I will assume that you will be able to keep an average of 1 Warden up 100% of the time.  This is pretty generous already but just bear with it for the time being.

Total: 1043 base, 2359 solo, 4154 with all buffs

Total group composition damage:
5 Warriors = 24010/s
4 Warriors, 1 Mesmer = 23362/s, Time Warp adds ~137k damage (x1)
3 Guardians, 1 Warrior, 1 Engineer = 25922/s, each Tome usage adds ~78k damage (x3)
2 Guardians, 1 Warrior, 1 Engineer, 1 Mesmer = 24621/s, each Tome adds ~70k damage (x2), each Time Warp adds ~118k damage (x1)

The numbers speak for themselves pretty well.  A guardian/warrior/engineer team has the highest sustained DPS at almost 26k/s, while warrior/mesmer team arguably has the best burst, at least for the first ten seconds or so, but the lowest sustained DPS.  A full mixed guardian/warrior/engineer/mesmer team is probably the most well-rounded with high sustained damage and strong burst.

#2 Rezo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

A lot of work here but unfortunately because of things like this I see that majority of players are choosing warriors.Even now in low lvl zones almost 70 percent of  characters running there are warriors.

#3 Balthor

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

View PostRezo, on 20 January 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

A lot of work here but unfortunately because of things like this I see that majority of players are choosing warriors.Even now in low lvl zones almost 70 percent of  characters running there are warriors.

?? Wouldn't the above cause more guardians?

In any case, a lot of great info here. I remember seeing you post a thief DPS breakdown somewhere else, would be interested in seeing how a glass cannon, back stab thief stacked up DPS wise.

EDIT: Here's your old thread, don't know if the info is still accurate:
http://www.guildwars...tive-dps-tests/

Edited by Balthor, 20 January 2013 - 05:11 AM.


#4 Sokonawareta

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

Not sure about Wastrel's 5% from Mesmer. I think it relies on CC working  :/

Empowered Mantras increases Sword damage, but does not change your 'summons'. Tested with iDuelist with zero increase to damage
(not to mention its tough to run with only mantras slotted lol)

Empowered Illusions not listed, but contributes 15% damage to illusions. With weapon swap you should have minimum 2 active phantasms up at any given point, even after a shatter.

(could add shatter dps /10s) really depends on the build, but most mesmers are 30 illusion for the 4x shatter. Optional Mind wrack dps trait vs Emp Illusion

Funny the base is so low for Blurred Frenzy, as mine does sick criticals. (as well as iDuelist barrages can break 4.5k on last bullet alone)

IMHO the ranged phantasm builds increase dps over time, as they might be shattering less and have nearly 100% uptime of iDuelist / iWarlock

(which leads to the Compounding Power uptime calculation as well) - easy to maintain with clones, not as easy when losing the dodge-> clone ability.

Edited by Sokonawareta, 20 January 2013 - 09:48 AM.


#5 TastySlop

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

Lots of good info.

For vulnerability, are you using the full duration vs trash mobs or are you using the half duration vs champs/bosses in your calculations?

#6 TastySlop

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

Using the good ideas presented above, I've added what I've been thinking about with regards to each player making a small sacrifice to personal buffs to provide the party with maximum buffs with minimal effort.

3 x Guardian

http://gw2skills.net...uMeJ8y11igBB7CA

Gear: All berserkers; Runes: 2x Superior Monk, 2x Superior Water, 2x Major Sanctuary; Sigils: Superior Accuracy on main weapon, Superior Force on off-hand; use Omnomberry Pie/Ghost and Master Maintenance Oil

Power= 916 + 1034 armor + 875 might + 100 trait = 2925
Crit Chance= 94 + 712 armor + 90 banner + 70 food + 101 oil + 250 trait + 25% = 87%
Crit Damage= 67% armor + 10% banner = +77%
Damage Multipliers= +10% (Elusive Power), +10% (Radiant Power), +10% (Fiery Wrath) = +33% (+39% with 1H weapons)


2 x Warrior

http://gw2skills.net...6I0xF0igBB7CmFA
http://gw2skills.net...6I0xF0igBB7CmFA

Gear: All berserkers; Runes: 2x Superior Fire, 2x Superior Hoelbrak, 2x Ruby Orb; Sigils: Superior Accuracy on main weapon, Superior Force on off-hands; use Omnomberry Pie/Ghost and Superior Sharpening Stone

The only difference between the two warriors is the choice of banners.

Power= 916 + 1034 armor + 90 runes + 99 stone + 875 might + 100 trait = 3114
Crit Chance= 94 + 712 armor + 90 banner + 70 food + 28 runes + 250 trait + 34% = 98%
Crit Damage= 67% armor + 4% runes + 10% banner + 15% trait = +96%
Damage Multipliers= +12% (Berserker's Power), +10% (Attack of Opportunity), +5% (Sigil) = +29%


These builds provide party-wide benefits of:

- 100% uptime for Fury, Protection, Regeneration, Retaliation, Stability (!), Swiftness, Vigor and Wall of Reflection
- maximum Might stacks during combat, 12 Might stacks at all times
- 95% uptime for non-elite banner effects

Edited by TastySlop, 21 January 2013 - 05:15 AM.


#7 CepaCepa

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:25 AM

Your mesmer numbers are WAY off, as well as the combat choices. iWarden is almost half the dps as some of the other phantasms, and tooltip numbers for phantasms do not reflect their damage well (other than numbers being off, each them have different attack timer that is not shown on tooltip). Having only 1 phantasm on the field at all times is not generous at all, I would call that a bad mesmer, and I'm generally not that harsh when judging player skills (OK maybe today, because I'm a bit cranky). Weapon swap means at all times you should have 2 phantasms on the field and if not, you should be shattering and the shatter should more than cover the dps loss because of those 2 phantasms dying. 3 phantasm setup only takes 15 sec upon engaging combat, which even in 50+ fractals I was able to keep up very frequently.

If you have a lvl 80 mesmer, please please please gear him full berserker and go 20 20 0 0 30 (typical fractal build along with 10 30 0 0 30), go up to an LA dummy and just summon 3 iSwordman while slashing in melee -- It's nowhere near optimal damage but at least you can see how many numbers pop up. Bring your warrior and do the same thing. The difference should be more than apparent.

And again, I mean really, if a mesmer can only keep up 1 phantasm (and this mesmer has the exceptional taste to choose iWarden as his sole phantasm) and doesn't know how to use shatter to make up for that poor positioning/timing/swapping, we might as well compare that to a guardian using scepter and doesn't know how to cast #2. Or using staff exclusively and call himself "dpser". Or using greatsword but can't place symbols. Or a grenadier who can't run/dodge and cast at the same time and hence not doing any damage at all half of the fights.

In easy contents such as dungeons, a mesmer doesn't have any excuse to not keep up 3 phantasms for at least 50% of the time, and using shatter to keep up 2 phantasm equivalent dps for the rest of the time. For harder content such as 40+ fractals, mesmer is one of the only professions that can maintain most of its optimal dps while warriors are reduced to rifle 80% of the time and guardians are brought for their aegis/projectile reflect. I guess I'm a little cranky because I keep running into so many warriors in fractals who pride themselves as "the damage profession", yet we keep wiping at things because having 3+ warriors in a group ironically means nothing dies and unlike guardians, they can't keep themselves (and the rest of us) alive. And if any guardian refuse to pull out wall of reflection and/or shield of avenger because they want to do more dps, I'll personally head over and slap them silly. (But please PLEASE come to our team if you do have those 2 skills equiped, PLEASE! You can /dance for the rest of the fractal, us mesmers and elementalists will take care of the killing). We want real test of dps with player skill included? There are plenty of dps race in there, and you'll see which professions can kill things fast and which can't very easily.

Edited by CepaCepa, 22 January 2013 - 10:01 AM.


#8 Minion

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:30 AM

I notice a distinct lack of thievery here. I am disappoint.

#9 Fenice_86

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

Didnt remember this game had only 4 classes available

#10 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 22 January 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Your mesmer numbers are WAY off, as well as the combat choices. iWarden is almost half the dps as some of the other phantasms, and tooltip numbers for phantasms do not reflect their damage well (other than numbers being off, each them have different attack timer that is not shown on tooltip). Having only 1 phantasm on the field at all times is not generous at all, I would call that a bad mesmer, and I'm generally not that harsh when judging player skills (OK maybe today, because I'm a bit cranky). Weapon swap means at all times you should have 2 phantasms on the field and if not, you should be shattering and the shatter should more than cover the dps loss because of those 2 phantasms dying. 3 phantasm setup only takes 15 sec upon engaging combat, which even in 50+ fractals I was able to keep up very frequently.

If you have a lvl 80 mesmer, please please please gear him full berserker and go 20 20 0 0 30 (typical fractal build along with 10 30 0 0 30), go up to an LA dummy and just summon 3 iSwordman while slashing in melee -- It's nowhere near optimal damage but at least you can see how many numbers pop up. Bring your warrior and do the same thing. The difference should be more than apparent.

And again, I mean really, if a mesmer can only keep up 1 phantasm (and this mesmer has the exceptional taste to choose iWarden as his sole phantasm) and doesn't know how to use shatter to make up for that poor positioning/timing/swapping, we might as well compare that to a guardian using scepter and doesn't know how to cast #2. Or using staff exclusively and call himself "dpser". Or using greatsword but can't place symbols. Or a grenadier who can't run/dodge and cast at the same time and hence not doing any damage at all half of the fights.

In easy contents such as dungeons, a mesmer doesn't have any excuse to not keep up 3 phantasms for at least 50% of the time, and using shatter to keep up 2 phantasm equivalent dps for the rest of the time. For harder content such as 40+ fractals, mesmer is one of the only professions that can maintain most of its optimal dps while warriors are reduced to rifle 80% of the time and guardians are brought for their aegis/projectile reflect. I guess I'm a little cranky because I keep running into so many warriors in fractals who pride themselves as "the damage profession", yet we keep wiping at things because having 3+ warriors in a group ironically means nothing dies and unlike guardians, they can't keep themselves (and the rest of us) alive. And if any guardian refuse to pull out wall of reflection and/or shield of avenger because they want to do more dps, I'll personally head over and slap them silly. (But please PLEASE come to our team if you do have those 2 skills equiped, PLEASE! You can /dance for the rest of the fractal, us mesmers and elementalists will take care of the killing). We want real test of dps with player skill included? There are plenty of dps race in there, and you'll see which professions can kill things fast and which can't very easily.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on how keeping a stationary minion with 2k health whose AI you have no control over alive at melee range is dependent in any way on player skill, as opposed to just sheer dumb luck.

Like I said, 1 phantasm 100% uptime is already pretty generous.  Even if you're weapon swapping between two offhands, that's still assuming that each phantasm will be up 50% of the time, on average.  While Illusionary Swordsman does deal a bit more than Warden on average, it actually hits for very little per attack.  In practice if they're both going to die three seconds after you summon them you are better off using the one that deals more damage with its first attack.

Moreover, the numbers already assume that you are maintaining 25 stacks of might and fury on your phantasm as well, which simply isn't going to happen.  I have made these assumptions to compensate for the massive fluctuation in the mesmer's damage output in general.

View PostFenice_86, on 22 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Didnt remember this game had only 4 classes available

The other classes do not do enough damage in general to be worth doing the overall numbers for.  Thief has the highest base damage but their party-wide boons are pretty bad, meaning that there's really nowhere to squeeze them into a group without making the tradeoff elsewhere.  The damage output on the other classes is just bad so I haven't bothered with them at all.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 22 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#11 CepaCepa

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 22 January 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I'd like to hear your reasoning on how keeping a stationary minion with 2k health whose AI you have no control over alive at melee range is dependent in any way on player skill, as opposed to just sheer dumb luck.

Like I said, 1 phantasm 100% uptime is already pretty generous.  Even if you're weapon swapping between two offhands, that's still assuming that each phantasm will be up 50% of the time, on average.  While Illusionary Swordsman does deal a bit more than Warden on average, it actually hits for very little per attack.  In practice if they're both going to die three seconds after you summon them you are better off using the one that deals more damage with its first attack.

1. Bosses have AI too, as do mobs. Sometimes they chase one person down for quite a while before switching, sometimes they target the toughest guy in your team regardless of how far he is, but there are MANY situations where bosses and/or mobs do not attack your phantasms. Sometimes they do, some bosses will turn around and smack your phantasm if they can't hit someone else, that's where shatter is handy --- Those phantasms in danger are melee phantasms, or in other words very close to the boss. So as soon as you see boss animation, shatter, and you've salvaged a lot of damage. But for those bosses who'll melee anything in view, there's another option --- ranged phantasms. Why not? 2-3 iDuelist and/or iWarlock standing at different corners surrounding the boss can sometimes never need to be replenished for a whole fight --- And if one gets killed somehow, you've got 2 CDs ready to summon up new phantasms. Whether if they have 2K health or 10K health doesn't matter, as the mesmer himself may know (if he's glass cannon, which I'm assuming he is) --- You get hit, you die. Phantasm gets hit, it dies. So you either shatter them before getting hit, summon up another one, or try to not get it killed (know when to use ranged phantasms only, and know when to open after your guardian has attacked first, etc).

2. I have to say, "reasoning" doesn't make much sense here --- we're both talking "situations", it's like two kids arguing "my pokemon will beat yours because I'll be using this and this after you used that and that". I'm talking from experience, both my own and other mesmers that I've grouped with. The ones that burst through everything fast are the ones that constantly have 2-3 purple selves on the field. Those are sometimes hard to find, but you can find them for sure.

3. iWarden's attack lasts 5 seconds, iSwordman has a recharge time of 4.4 seconds after trait. By the time iWarden finishes his attack, your iSwordman could've attacked twice. In full berserker iSwordman hits for 5-7K crit without might depending on armor, and iWarden hits for 7-10K. So even for that 5 second alone, iSwordman would do more damage, not to mention the long wait for iWarden to attack again afterwards. Within that 12.4 second recharge time of iWarden (after traited to get 12.4), iSwordman almost attacks 4 times. The consistent dps of iSwordman is hence, MUCH higher.

4. You're assuming warrior standing 100% in melee landing all of 100B, grenadier landing 100% of grenades, yet under similar conditions a mesmer has only 1 phantasm out (and again, that phantasm is unfortunately iWarden). That just doesn't seem fair to me, I can GUARANTEE you, if the warriors and guardians in my group can melee 100% on a boss, the guardian's symbol ticks on the boss all the time and the grenadier lands his grenade 100%, under that situation there is NO WAY that I don't have 3 phantasms out. And there is also no way that I'd use iWarden for those 3 phantasm situations, that's just a slap on my own face --- I *may* use focus for its utilities in a dungeon/fractal, but in a fight like that I'd rather run out of combat and switch weapon first instead of stuck with iWarden's 12.4 second recharge time.

Edited by CepaCepa, 22 January 2013 - 07:36 PM.


#12 Cannot See Me

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 22 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

-snip-

You sir, obviously have never watched pokemon

#13 CepaCepa

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostCannot See Me, on 22 January 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

You sir, obviously have never watched pokemon

Pikachoo always wins! XO

#14 madmaxII

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

Interesting, but at what point do you take the time you spend healing and evading into account?




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