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#1 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

1. GW2 is a solo game.
While the game has group content or grouping makes the content more enjoyable, in it's core, GW2 is a solo game. When you buy GW2, you are buying a game that you will solo with the potential to play in a group. That's why there are no dedicated healers, we have predetermined bars, ... it's to make players self-sufficient.
2. GW2 wants you to play in the area you are in.
Waypoint fees and the fact that DE notices only pop up for your closest vicinity speak for the idea that jumping around the map, hunting down content isn't promoted. Players should wander around the map, stumbling onto content instead.

The problem is that the content in question (outside of hearts, story and exploration - which are both one-off things and based on other games we have played considered to be tools that facilitate content rather than content itself) are DEs. And as I said, the players only receive the DE warning if they are basically on top of the DE. Not only that, DEs will happen in the world regardless if the player is present in it or not.
Which means that DEs, while certainly playing a huge role in any player's gaming experience are not the most reliable content. It means that when players log into the world, they can pretty much only expect to experience on-demand content. A lot of the time this will not be the only thing they will experience, especially if you play for a bit longer, but this is the content you should expect to experience.
And this brings us to the fact that GW2 is a solo game. The repeatable on-demand content in GW2 is (almost?) exclusively group content. You know that AC will always be up and running - but you need a group for it. This means that players can sometimes be prevented from doing this content (not finding a group, not being allowed to join a group, ...) and it also means that the players who do not wish to group to experience on-demand content are simply out of luck.

What this leads to is that the only solo, repeatable, on-demand content in this game is basically killing trash. This is what players should expect to experience when logging into the world, with a decent chance of dynamic content on top of it. And killing trash in GW2, sadly, isn't interesting, nor is it rewarding. If I remember correctly, A.Net actually said that they do not want players to be running around killing trash.
And going forward, at least once the new smell wears off, this doesn't seem to be the best outlook.


So, do you agree or disagree? Am I completely missing some on-demand content? Do you agree, but not consider it an issue? Hoping that the February/March patch resolves this?

Edited by Protoss, 20 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.


#2 jirayasan

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

Watched or read any of their interviews lately and you would have that answered.

#3 Gilles VI

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

On demand content that isn't killing trash:
  • WvW
  • sPvP
  • Jumping puzzles
  • Exploration/hearts
I don't agree with you, there is lots of stuff to do, even if you don't want to be in a group (why are you playing an MMO then?).

#4 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

View Postjirayasan, on 20 January 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Watched or read any of their interviews lately and you would have that answered.

As far as I remember they mentioned the achievement system - which is basically equal to giving you reward for the content that you can't find.
Then there's more on-demand group content (either guild or PUG).
And more DEs?
Anything else? Or did I miss actual solo, repeatable, on-demand content in their announcements?


View PostGilles VI, on 20 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

On demand content that isn't killing trash:
    WvW
    sPvP
    Jumping puzzles
    Exploration/hearts

I don't agree with you, there is lots of stuff to do, even if you don't want to be in a group (why are you playing an MMO then?).

So PvP, one-off content and jumping puzzles are the on-demand content PvE players should be looking forward to in GW2?
As for being in a group - I consider GW1 to be a group game. GW1 gives you an option to play alone, either actually or by playing with h/h, but it's a group game in its core.
GW2, on the other hand, is a game that is designed to be played solo, with an emphasis on playing with others. But in its core it's designed to be a solo experience, just in case you can't find any other players. The real group content in GW2 is the completely optional content.
So if playing solo isn't what people want, then GW2 is not a game one should be playing, no?

Edited by Protoss, 20 January 2013 - 02:37 PM.


#5 Gilles VI

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostProtoss, on 20 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

So PvP, one-off content and jumping puzzles are the on-demand content PvE players should be looking forward to in GW2?
As for being in a group - I consider GW1 to be a group game. GW1 gives you an option to play alone, either actually or by playing with h/h, but it's a group game in its core.
GW2, on the other hand, is a game that is designed to be played solo, with an emphasis on playing with others. But in its core it's designed to be a solo experience, just in case you can't find any other players. The real group content in GW2 is the completely optional content.
So if playing solo isn't what people want, then GW2 is not a game one should be playing, no?

As far as I know people can actually group up for pretty much everything in the game?
I can't count howmany times I entered a map, shouted 'looking for group to explore' and I just grouped up with pugs and do DE's/hearts/vistas/SP/...
Even more so with guildies/friends.

You are right though, there are no missions like in GW1 where you grouped up for in outposts and then simply did that mission.
But they replaced that with a completely open world where people can do everything together and still be rewarded for it, instead of GW1 system, where often people weren't rewarded for helping others if they had done it before.

Edited by Gilles VI, 20 January 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#6 ayoblame

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:54 PM

I'm really confused by your idea that GW2 at it's core is completely optional? I mean the dynamic event system is THE core of open world pve in this game and it is not designed to be solo'd. From the very first zone boss you fight to getting swarmed by 2321312 centaurs while trying to prevent a village from getting overrun. However, they don't make things overly difficult to prevent you from being able to solo. That's different from being a single player game.

I'm sorry but, have you ever heard a single designer on the gw2 team say this game was intended to be played solo? Yes, I will agree that story quests give a solo feel but thats it. If you play solo that's not design thats a choice. Don't expect a ton of content for solo play. Not to say they wont add stuff but the game's an MMO after all.

Edited by ayoblame, 20 January 2013 - 02:56 PM.


#7 jirayasan

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostProtoss, on 20 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

As far as I remember they mentioned the achievement system - which is basically equal to giving you reward for the content that you can't find.
Then there's more on-demand group content (either guild or PUG).
And more DEs?
Anything else? Or did I miss actual solo, repeatable, on-demand content in their announcements?


WvWvW progression, PvE progression, SPvP progression will be added in January, February and March.
Tweaking Orr a bit, to make it more accesible and rewarding.
Exploring low-mid lvl zones more rewarding.
New dynamic events.
New places that precursor can be dropped.


They are also working on a lfg tool, guild halls and personal instances which will come later and the scavenger hunt for precursors, but not right now. I probably missed something.

There are tough DEs in the world, some are soloable, some aren't. With new dynamic events added, the time for an event to spawn again will be much longer. I agree that some events are easy, but as you said,it's supposed to be soloable, to an extent atleast and it is.

Edit: By looking at your avatar, you played GW1, a Paragon.

Edited by jirayasan, 20 January 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 03:41 PM

View Postayoblame, on 20 January 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm really confused by your idea that GW2 at it's core is completely optional? I mean the dynamic event system is THE core of open world pve in this game and it is not designed to be solo'd. From the very first zone boss you fight to getting swarmed by 2321312 centaurs while trying to prevent a village from getting overrun. However, they don't make things overly difficult to prevent you from being able to solo. That's different from being a single player game.

I'm sorry but, have you ever heard a single designer on the gw2 team say this game was intended to be played solo? Yes, I will agree that story quests give a solo feel but thats it. If you play solo that's not design thats a choice. Don't expect a ton of content for solo play. Not to say they wont add stuff but the game's an MMO after all.

Even if you argue that we are dealing with a game that is designed to be played in a group, with the option to play solo it (while I'd say it's designed to be played solo, with an emphasis on making group play as accessible as possible) - playing solo in GW2 currently certainly isn't a choice. The game isn't populated enough for solo play to not be the default state.

#9 Trei

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostProtoss, on 20 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Spoiler
I am confused how you come to your two stated opinions above based on this "problem" you then subsequently claimed.

You claim such repeatable on-demand content in GW2 is group content, but yet GW2 is a solo game?
Therefore - 1. GW2 can't be meant to be a solo game at its core.

DE notice range has no relevance since as you said - players should wander around, so how could it be that "GW2 want you to just play in the area you are in"?
Waypoints fees are not there to discourage you from travelling, they are there to encourage you to travel by foot.
Therefore - 2. GW2 can't be wanting you to just play in the area you are in.

Your points do not follow.

Edited by Trei, 20 January 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#10 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostTrei, on 20 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

I am confused how you come to your two stated opinions above based on this "problem" you then subsequently claimed.

You claim such repeatable on-demand content in GW2 is group content, but yet GW2 is a solo game?
Therefore - 1. GW2 can't be meant to be a solo game at its core.

DE notice range has no relevance since as you said - players should wander around, so how could it be that "GW2 want you to just play in the area you are in"?
Waypoints fees are not there to discourage you from travelling, they are there to encourage you to travel by foot.
Therefore - 2. GW2 can't be wanting you to just play in the area you are in.


Your points do not follow.

1. As I said, the on-demand group content is completely optional. On-demand group content clearly being represented by dungeons. Players can have a completely fulfilling gaming experience without ever stepping into content that demands a group.
Whereas the content that players can not avoid (that is, if we exclude options such as getting to 80 by crafting), would be represented by solo content with the option to play though it in a group. And as I said above, even if the content is not designed to be a solo game, given the emptiness of the game, it actually is.

2. If a player is supposed to move around the map by foot, that means he can only traverse a certain distance in a select amount of time. Which means he is limited to content that takes place in an area he can traverse. With DEs not lasting indefinitely, but rather having a starting point and a finishing one, the time it takes to travel from your starting position to the location of the DE might not be sufficient to be able to participate in the DE itself. This, of course, plays into the fact that DEs can be started by anyone/are on a timer and once they finish, they enter a global cooldown, during which no player can start them.

Edited by Protoss, 20 January 2013 - 04:47 PM.


#11 ayoblame

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

View PostProtoss, on 20 January 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Even if you argue that we are dealing with a game that is designed to be played in a group, with the option to play solo it (while I'd say it's designed to be played solo, with an emphasis on making group play as accessible as possible) - playing solo in GW2 currently certainly isn't a choice. The game isn't populated enough for solo play to not be the default state.

I can definitely agree that in open world pve there's definitely a lack of players around the zones now-a-days but this is pretty much the same for any MMO I've played several months after the initial wave of players hit level cap. It's shame because with the scaling thing I feel like Anet definitely wanted players to not get locked in Orr doing cursed shore event chaining. I'm actually currently looking for a more active server for pve- I've got a few new players into the game and I'd hate for them to end up getting locked into the idea that pve is solo play because it's dead on my server.

#12 Xsiriss

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

I disagree that GW2 is a solo game, but agree the on demand content is actually very limited. Most of the time you have to wait for more peak hours to do anything ,if only a couple of my mates are on for example we can't just go and do a dungeon. We have to find 2 pugs/less trust worthy people in order to do it. Sure you can farm events in CS but the best content frankly is instances like dungeons in terms of reward and fun.

It'd be great if they could add solo/duo or scaled dungeons that vary in difficulty depending on how many people you have in your party, and in the case of solo are specifically designed with that in mind.

#13 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:05 PM

View Postayoblame, on 20 January 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I can definitely agree that in open world pve there's definitely a lack of players around the zones now-a-days but this is pretty much the same for any MMO I've played several months after the initial wave of players hit level cap. It's shame because with the scaling thing I feel like Anet definitely wanted players to not get locked in Orr doing cursed shore event chaining. I'm actually currently looking for a more active server for pve- I've got a few new players into the game and I'd hate for them to end up getting locked into the idea that pve is solo play because it's dead on my server.

Of course, I wasn't comparing GW2 to other MMO - as far as I hear, this sort of solo gameplay is what all MMOs end up with. I do think the problem is made a bit worse in GW2 though since one can actually complete all of progression in areas that do not demand a group, whereas other games continue their vertical progression in group-based content.
Still, I'd say that's a massive advantage for GW2, yet it does make GW2 a lot more solo-oriented.



View PostXsiriss, on 20 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

It'd be great if they could add solo/duo or scaled dungeons that vary in difficulty depending on how many people you have in your party, and in the case of solo are specifically designed with that in mind.

When we first heard of Fraks, I had hoped they would provide us with a more scalable experience. Their idea of a 15 minute dungeon, that automatically raises you to 80 would be pretty darn amazing if it would also scale based on the number of party members.  It certainly wouldn't be enough, but it would be one hell of a start.

Edited by Protoss, 20 January 2013 - 06:11 PM.


#14 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostProtoss, on 20 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

1. GW2 is a solo game.
While the game has group content or groping makes the content more enjoyable, in it's core, GW2 is a solo game.
I guess groping could make some things more enjoyable, but I'm not sure if GW2 is one of them.  ;)




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