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#1 JROH

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:10 AM

http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3s8YAyeBA

This is the only build I run on ranger anymore.

Before we go any further, a note on traits, particularly, using Wilderness Survival 5 (or V): it is to maximize damage as much as possible, regardless of how slight the increase may be. I have considered the one where you get vigor on heal, but I never find myself needing vigor when I activate my heal anyhow, so its a personal thing I suppose. I will play around even more with this in the future, but for now, I'm going with increased pet condition damage.

Moving onward, the goal of this build is the same goal that any condition damage/healing build has, stay alive and attrition the enemy to death. What this build brings to the table: INSANE regeneration capabilities. In total, there is +73% regen duration on the build, plus the rune of dwayna 6/6, which gives even more regen on heal activation, and a chance in fights for long lasting duration. Coupled with signet of the wild, and fortifying bond, you and your pet almost always have regen up when in fights.
Regen in this build ticks for 269. Add that to the 129 of signet of the wild, and you get 398 regen per second going at a time, on top of the 6k heal healing spring provides. Also, regen stacks and can tick past the entire cooldown duration of healing spring. Assuming you are point bunkering, you can get regen to have a 100% uptime.

As far as killing things goes, shortbow is the harassment weapon, and axe/dagger the bleed burst weapon. Poke at them with the shortbow, kiting and keeping distance, using sb 4 and 5 to help your pet land its damage on them. Then when they get close, sb 2 for poison, then weapon swap. Geomancy stacks 3 bleeds on them, then hit either 5, 3, or 2, depending on positioning. The goal is to get as much bleeding as possible on them, so it would be ideal to hit them on the swap right with axe 2 and then follow up with dagger 5, but that can be reversed for a similar effect.
Rinse and repeat as necessary, keep bleed and poison up as much as possible, CC as much as possible so your pet can do the damage it needs to, and there should be no problem beating anybody. Use entangle for AoE CC when needed. Personally, my favorite time to do it is when I get caught off guard by a thief so I'm weakened and they blow their thieves guild on me. I hit entangle, roll behind the thief, and usually am able to kill the thief by bursting some bleeds on them with the axe/dagger set. If they aren't dead, they are usually running after this. Similar examples apply. There are not many AoE skills in this build, so knowing when and what opponents to use it on is a key strategy. Otherwise just take RaO for stability and making your pet stronger.

Using dagger 4 and shortbow 3 in conjunction with dodges is key for this build, as well as lightning reflexes. Do not blow LR before the first 4 options, unless absolutely necessary. If you can predict the burst and dodge through it, LR can be kept as the get out of jail free card.

The pet is the crux of this build. After playing mechromancer on borderlands 2, I am much more appreciative of the companion AI and control capabilities on this game, and it has given me an appreciation of strengths of pets in psychological warfare (enemies for whatever reason ignore your pet 90% of the time). You are the utility, your pet is the damage.


Any questions, comments, concerns, feel free to ask. This isn't an entirely original build, but it is the build I have found the most success with in every situation I have previously experienced failures.

#2 Fusslchen33

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:29 PM

well you use pretty much the build i run with, and yes it is great to play if you can get in your mind that de pet is the main source of your dmg.
i play with greatsword and one hand works great the only difference in my build is i go with 10 in skirmish for the increased crit dmg of your pet, and i use 4 runes of earth and 2 runes of water to increase the protection time on dodge to 3 seconds with this you will never have no protection so -33% dmg all the time is quite usefull. well incase of the vigor i play close combat so i really love anything related to it but for shortbow ... your build will work really good , just one thing i would change the pets in instances maybe to birds or wolves cause the cats will go down really fast in boss fights

#3 avoidconfusion

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

Love this post and the detailed walk-through on how to use this build. Will definitely try this tonight.

#4 Tempo

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

Try Sword torch instead of shortbow, it's more melee but had the evasion power of the sword and the huge amount of dmg done by burning. You can also put 30 points in survival for the condi removal trait, then switch signet of renewal for signet of the hunt. your pet will be quicker and will land attacks more reliably, the condi removal is better and i usually find that signet of the wild is enough for pet regen. You can also, remove those points on nature magic and put 10 in marks for longer condi durations for pets, and 10 in skirmi for 30% extra dmg on crit. You will b e a little less tanky but the damage of your pet will be very sweet! You can think that's a totally differnet build with all that changes but no, it's the exact same way of fighting : pet is strong, i'm pretty tanky and i put a lot of pressure with condis.

Edited by Tempo, 21 January 2013 - 10:58 PM.


#5 JROH

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostFusslchen33, on 21 January 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

well you use pretty much the build i run with, and yes it is great to play if you can get in your mind that de pet is the main source of your dmg.
i play with greatsword and one hand works great the only difference in my build is i go with 10 in skirmish for the increased crit dmg of your pet, and i use 4 runes of earth and 2 runes of water to increase the protection time on dodge to 3 seconds with this you will never have no protection so -33% dmg all the time is quite usefull. well incase of the vigor i play close combat so i really love anything related to it but for shortbow ... your build will work really good , just one thing i would change the pets in instances maybe to birds or wolves cause the cats will go down really fast in boss fights

That sounds very interesting, I never knew exactly how to capitalize on the protection. I may have to play around with this a bit more in the future and see how I like it.

View PostTempo, on 21 January 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Try Sword torch instead of shortbow, it's more melee but had the evasion power of the sword and the huge amount of dmg done by burning. You can also put 30 points in survival for the condi removal trait, then switch signet of renewal for signet of the hunt. your pet will be quicker and will land attacks more reliably, the condi removal is better and i usually find that signet of the wild is enough for pet regen. You can also, remove those points on nature magic and put 10 in marks for longer condi durations for pets, and 10 in skirmi for 30% extra dmg on crit. You will b e a little less tanky but the damage of your pet will be very sweet! You can think that's a totally differnet build with all that changes but no, it's the exact same way of fighting : pet is strong, i'm pretty tanky and i put a lot of pressure with condis.

I enjoy the sword but not for this build. Sword is very defensive oriented, and I find the control on the shortbow and the range it provides more valuable to my own playstyle. It definitely isn't a viability thing, it is a playstyle preference.
Same goes to the suggestions. I've run 0/0/30/10/30 before and just don't enjoy it. The healing counteracts most conditions that can be put on you and Empathic Bond does not tick at a fast enough pace for my own preference. I find the extra 10 points into Nature for 1k health, 10% more boon duration, fortifying bond (meaning I can micromanage the pet less due to constant regen uptime mentioned in OP) and Natures Protection to be much more useful for survival with the way I play.
I'm not trying to dismiss anything you said by the way, I have tried most of your suggestions and they are all effective, just not towards the particular way I enjoy to play or setup the build, and I am trying to add clear descriptions as to why I make the choices I do (it's a pet peeve of mine for people to just say things like: "I use this, and it works for me, so it must be the best option").

I said it during release month and I'll say it again now, if ranger had 90 points instead of just 70, I would be in love with some of the trait combinations. It's just a shame some of the traits are spread so thin for things you want to build for (except trap traits and spirit traits).

#6 Tempo

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

In your opinion, does canines can put near the damage of the cats or are they just for control purpose? Because ae immobilize and fear are so good.

#7 avoidconfusion

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:52 AM

Tried this build last night and I love it. Thieves are a problem though I found...

#8 Fusslchen33

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

View Postavoidconfusion, on 22 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Tried this build last night and I love it. Thieves are a problem though I found...

well thieves are a hard thing but its possible to kill a bad thief will go down in an instant a good thief is another thing :D well i found for myself that in close combat you will have an easier time with them because auf the various dodge skills of greatsword and one hand sword / axe, but the only way to kill a thief is to exactly know what he will do next there is no other chance ^^


View PostTempo, on 22 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

In your opinion, does canines can put near the damage of the cats or are they just for control purpose? Because ae immobilize and fear are so good.

the dmg of birds and cats is way higher but if you play ranged i would suggest wolves are the better ones, the put an 2 sec knockdown on there first attack and there f2 are quite usefull for ranged combat so you will have an easier time keeping your distance to the enemys blade

#9 Nukk

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

So you think they have any plans to change entangle?

Those roots are way out of place. I mean having such a long duration (re-applied) immobalise that pretty much circumvents any condition removal is not really congruent to the whole boons and conditions philosophy now is it? Also, having to stand there and physically attack a vine while someone (or a whole bunch of players sometime) just whack on you while you can't even dodge roll out of it (immob ftw) is extremely retarded. Hope they change it.

#10 JROH

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

View PostTempo, on 22 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

In your opinion, does canines can put near the damage of the cats or are they just for control purpose? Because ae immobilize and fear are so good.

To add to the answer somebody else gave, canines do similar damage, but have lower DPS. As in, they attack slower due to the utility they provide. They really are great pets, but I find the build needing this particular build needing the DPS more than the utility.

Birds are honestly another great option, as many people have mentioned, but I have to say I hate how their F2 skill functions, and I can barely tell if it works sometimes.

View Postavoidconfusion, on 22 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Tried this build last night and I love it. Thieves are a problem though I found...

I honestly haven't had any issue with thieves yet (and this is coming from somebody who, after a certain amount of time playing, would get to the point of exiting to the desktop when those glass spike thieves would instakill me when they caught me off guard or I didn't see them).
I find they key thing for me is the weapon swapping sigils. Usually, you can either shortbow 3 or Lightning Reflexes to avoid the initial spike from them. Don't over-anticipate though. Them landing a steal on you is much more manageable than a backstab or multiple hasted heartseekers. The most steal can hit for is in the 3k range, but I have been hit on this build for as much as 5k by a backstab, which is ridiculous honestly, but necessitates dodging that in some way. Basically, sometimes it is better to let them land the steal, because with good reflexes, if the steal hits you, you can almost immediately dodge the backstab on reflex alone.

Anyhow, once the initial spike is missed, thieves do one of three things when running a backstab build: they haste and try to heartseeker you down, they try to autoattack you for damage and then cloak and dagger, or they go immediately for the cloak and dagger. In the first case, if they go for the heartseeker spam, hitting them with shortbow 5 (especially if they hasted so it buys time) and shortbow 4 (the cripple reduces the leap distance) followed by playing keep away and shortbow 3 until they are unable to heartseeker anymore is effective at avoiding that. Usually after this they try to buy time to go stealth again, so now it's time to counter attack.
If it is the last two options, counter attack immediately until they cloak again, then go back onto the defensive, playing keep away from the last known location until they reappear. By counterattack in all of these instances by the way, I mean to begin trying to burst bleeds onto the thief. Generally, because of the glass build and low overall health, plus pet damage, the thief is feeling lots of pressure, and off of the first round of bursting bleed onto them, they have to blow their heal, which is 90% of the time stealth as well.
This is when they reset the fight. This is also your chance to reset the fight. If you are performing well, healing isn't necessarily required, but if you have/want to, that's fine, the regen is always bolstering and will help win the fight, and the thief will usually let you sit in it and stack up to where it will last until healing spring is off cooldown.
This time, anticipate the backstab (you can keep your back turned away from where they stealthed and count to 2s because it only lasts 3s unless the thief is running points in shadow arts on their glass build, which would be random and probably unheard of in most cases) and switch back to shortbow to get the chill on them, then play keep away with the shortbow and the pet the whole time. Now that their heal is on cooldown, you can poke at them for 9s, then use the burst on them again, and at this point they will either try to run, or shadow refuge through it. If they run using shortbow, you probably won't catch them, but that is still a win in my book, as you effectively outplayed them for a successful outcome towards winning the match.
However, if they shadow refuge, throw attacks at it, and weapon swap in it for the AoE. You will either make them run, they will attack you to try for a backstab and unstealth themselves, or they will ignore you for the entire duration of Shadow Refuge. So, if they run, they run, same argument applies. If they backstab at you and unstealth, you now have an opportunity to attack them and finish the job before their heal is off cooldown (you should have another 8-9s since most thieves will go for it instantly that would do this option when you walk right into their Refuge). If they ignore you, you are going against a smart thief, because then they will get their heal back, heal all the way back, and reset the whole fight. You can kill them if they do this using the same methods above because they won't have their Shadow Refuge available this time so they will either have to run or die.

Sorry for the lengthy breakdown, that is my experience against the thief build that is typically the biggest problem/threat. As for p/d bunkers, I have yet to to beat one, but they haven't beaten me either. It is a stalemate and usually you can just play them til they get bored and leave you alone. If you are up against the d/d death blossom bleed build, just stay out of the caltrops, and use your dodges when they use their caltrops. A good one will stalemate you, you will beat any not so good players at that build.

Then again this is all just my experience, but I hope it helps.

#11 Tempo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostJROH, on 22 January 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

To add to the answer somebody else gave, canines do similar damage, but have lower DPS. As in, they attack slower due to the utility they provide. They really are great pets, but I find the build needing this particular build needing the DPS more than the utility.

Birds are honestly another great option, as many people have mentioned, but I have to say I hate how their F2 skill functions, and I can barely tell if it works sometimes.


Without Bleed traits, i thinh that birds are better than cats because thier autoattack does not miss (300 range) and their F2 is pretty reliable (test it more, it's instant and never miss as soon as the bird is in range). To bad they loose time by casting that swiftness buff...

With bleed traits, that's another story. The cat can stack 10 bleeds that ticks for 60. On top of their normal attacks, it's crazy.

In fact i was wonderng for canines because last night i played roamer with a burst ele and he asked me to coordinate with him in order to land his burst more reliably. And i had nothing to offer to him, no cc. I thought that a well timed immobilize, fear, kd with cripple trait should allow him to melt faces with dragon tooth, phoenix, etc... i would loose some cat damage but i would greatly increase my teamplay utility.

#12 avoidconfusion

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:30 AM

Thanks JROH!

#13 Placebo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

I'm really new to PvP, so be indulgent ^^ I'm currently looking for a WvW build, recon team with thieves/rangers

I'd like to know when do you use this kind of build : sPvP or WvW ?

I may have further questions depending on the answer

anyways, thanks for sharing, you gave me a fresh review of my very first 80th level

cheers

#14 JROH

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostTempo, on 23 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Without Bleed traits, i thinh that birds are better than cats because thier autoattack does not miss (300 range) and their F2 is pretty reliable (test it more, it's instant and never miss as soon as the bird is in range). To bad they loose time by casting that swiftness buff...

With bleed traits, that's another story. The cat can stack 10 bleeds that ticks for 60. On top of their normal attacks, it's crazy.

In fact i was wonderng for canines because last night i played roamer with a burst ele and he asked me to coordinate with him in order to land his burst more reliably. And i had nothing to offer to him, no cc. I thought that a well timed immobilize, fear, kd with cripple trait should allow him to melt faces with dragon tooth, phoenix, etc... i would loose some cat damage but i would greatly increase my teamplay utility.

As crazy as this is going to sound, I think the best untraited option we have for team support AoE is Muddy Terrain. Not many people recommend it over other options, but it is a ground target AoE with an immobilize on activation, crippling effect, large radius, and fairly short cooldown time. Most people argue that spike trap is better, but you don't have to trait for Muddy Terrain, making it more viable.

Canine howls take too long in certain instances, but they are a valid CC pet choice, the only other option really being Spiders. I remember reading on the main forum that because the spiders F2 acts like a venom, when used with the crippling on F2 trait, it applies cripple for every hit of the F2 skill, and that certain spider pets can get up to 20s of cripple if all their attacks land.

Traps are the best team support AoE skill we have, but not everybody wants to run traps. I myself feel that a trapping build is fairly one dimensional in what its capabilities are. It performs better than lots of other options, but it is also one of the easiest to figure out how to trait for and the roles it performs can be fairly niche at times, making it feel like more of a team setup for myself at times.

I can't even really think of any other control options rangers have. Sure a few pets have a few chill and cripple options here and there, but based on what the ele asked, it sounded like they want control on as short of a cooldown as you can give them. Weapon skills like shortbow 4, dagger 5, axe 2, etc could be built for longer durations I guess, but that sacrifices a lot of your own damage options to help them out.

The birds definitely have higher direct burst, you're right. If they could be traited for a damage trait as well, and didn't have swiftness, I would probably use them. In my opinion I feel like birds are best suited for melee rangers using a similar healing/bunkering setup. Mainly, people who run evasion builds using greatsword/sword/dagger. It makes lots of sense to me, since the birds give you swiftness to keep up with and pressure, they give AoE vigor when traited so more dodging and evading, and they have higher burst meaning the pet swap quickness they get benefits their burst more than a cats sustained DPS. If I ever switch to running a melee build on my ranger (which I honestly won't because I chose a class that I could effectively stay at distance with. I never liked being in melee range in gw1 and the same applies to gw2) I would run birds in a heartbeat lol.

View PostPlacebo, on 23 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm really new to PvP, so be indulgent ^^ I'm currently looking for a WvW build, recon team with thieves/rangers

I'd like to know when do you use this kind of build : sPvP or WvW ?

I may have further questions depending on the answer

anyways, thanks for sharing, you gave me a fresh review of my very first 80th level

cheers

I created this with spvp/tpvp in mind since that is my background, but there is no reason why this can't work in WvW. The biggest difference would be that I would have no idea how to gear the build for WvW, other than saying the runes would remain the same. Their are just so many more options because of the combinations of gear.
If I could theorycraft some numbers for you though, I would say that the armor rating is where it needs to be and the healing as well. It wouldn't hurt to gear for more healing, but if you could get the bleeds to tick for higher (I'm thinking around 1000 total condition damage) without sacrificing any of the numbers the build has now, it would be extremely beneficial.
It's also up to you from there. A larger health pool might be useful too, but knowing when it's too large is key. Too large meaning that you have increased your health beyond your range of effective healing. Basically though, I would say you don't want your build to be able to die from 3 backstabs without healing. Near death is acceptable, but if you can die from 3 backstabs, I feel you don't have enough survival (this is my own personal gauge. This varies from player to player, but backstabs can crit for dangerous amounts, and if you can take a few, live, and outplay somebody, then just think of what you can do against people that can't do that damage. I say 3 because in spvp the highest I get hit for is 5k backstabs at times, and having only 15k health means I'm going to die. but 17k health means I can live it and heal back to at least 2/3 of my health while getting regen going). The idea with too large of a health pool is that if your heal isn't strong enough then the health you have above the controllable amount is wasted and is being built for to compensate for poor damage mitigation. That isn't always a variable that is within your power, but ideally, you know the classes that you perform well against, and you should build yourself in a way that compensates for what you feel your weaknesses are.
On a completely personal level, I would aim for the same amount of healing, same amount of armor at the very least, 18k health, 100 damage per tick bleeds, and any amount of power I could conceivably add to the build after hitting the rest of these stats. Power is a stat you can never go wrong with. It stacks additively, is barely affected by diminishing returns until it puts your attack into the 3k range, and it will make all of your attacks stronger on top of your condition damage. I'm not saying this is the first thing to build for, because this isn't a build built for power. But if all the other stats you wanted to achieve have been achieved and there is still slots open for options, then power is the way to go because the only situation power doesn't add more damage is if the opponent is blocking, and the more pressure you can put out the better, since this is by definition a pressure build.

I hope this has helped in some way. I don't WvW nearly enough to be able to give stone details on it, so all I can really do is theorycraft on it. I play spvp exclusively at this point in the game, because I really don't feel like finishing the game and putting in the time until some more of the bugs get worked out and classes get balanced. I'm not talking nerfs by the way. The devs, from my understanding, are looking to improve lackluster options that classes have so that there is a more balanced choice of builds to run, and the only nerfs they plan on applying are to classes that can do things so effectively that it is hard to consider using another class in its position (a prime example being mesmer portals and bunker builds).
So if anybody could add anything or share any of their experiences, it always helps.

#15 Placebo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

thanks so much for your awesome detailed answer!

thats what I guessed, this is a *PvP build ... but thanks to your knowledgeable assumptions and theorycraft, you gave me some directions and that sounds really great if I could adapt it from a WvW point of view
so I'll keep that in mind when I'll test builds for WvW

thanks again!

#16 Tempo

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:19 AM

I never had the opportunity to use muddy terrain...
One of my utilities is always Lightning reflex.
For the others it's two traps if i go trap build. If not, i go condi tanky BM then i need signet of the wild (you can't count on your pet without that regen). And i need signet of the hunt. Signet of the hunt is the only roaming skill we have + your pet will hit his target more reliably, must have! Well if you are bunkering a point you can take another utility, but there are some better tools for this role than muddy terrain, and when bunkering you will not be teamplaying that much.

I just don't have the slot for muddy terrain :(.

I always thought that power based build are underpowered so i didn't try it hard, maybe you can had muddy terrain there...

Edited by Tempo, 24 January 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#17 JROH

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

It's one of those conundrums. I would never really use Muddy Terrain in s/tpvp. But if I was in a dedicated roaming group in WvW, it would most likely be invaluable to the rest of your team to lay down Muddy Terrain in fights, especially for your melee. But agreed definitely that you sacrifice some of your own options to help out the rest of the team on that one.
So far in pvp I haven't had any trouble with my pet hitting people in fights, unless they aren't focusing me. But even then, if I am staying at range and not getting attacked, I am generally only trying to harass people with providing bleeds, stun/daze, and cripple while people who in the fray of the fight get attacked.
My argument for signet of the hunt is your argument for muddy terrain, I just don't have a slot for it because I enjoy carrying the only condition removal (besides healing spring) I have since I didn't trait for it. I'm hoping one day to see improvements on our condition removal one day (maybe x pet removes 1 condition on F2 activation or something simple like that).

Edit: Trapping is a definite option with this setup. Run 0/30/0/10/30. You lose a few defensive options but gain the damage from traps. This build is strong against thieves and most thieves will be unable to kill you, as well as most other classes. I find it to be a bit weaker against conditions though, and you lose a stun breaker going this route, so it does require a bit more defensive gameplay. I'm going to try messing around with a power build now.

After testing power build: It would be hard to argue building for powers efficiency over condition damage, however, I was able to manage with 20/0/0/20/30 and 20/10/0/10/30 and a longbow/sword/warhorn. It isn't as dodge oriented however, and the weapon skills don't feel as if they provide enough control, as well as the overall damage output seeming a bit lackluster. However, I would like to attribute a lot of the issues ranger power builds have to the overall bunker metagame where everybody is either building as heavy defense as possible or as glass cannon as possible. If/when unkillable builds and instakill builds are tuned a bit better I'm sure the overall success of hybrid builds in general (by hybrid I mean building power into a defensive build, or building power/condition damage with no crit, etc) will be better.

Edited by JROH, 24 January 2013 - 03:30 PM.


#18 Umie

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:13 PM

Hey man thats almost identical to my bleed stacking tanky build! Glad you enjoy this playstyle. Personally, I will never drop empathic bond and SoH at least not until we receive more changes

Btw muddy terrain is mad good even in tpvp! It owns those pesky d/d's and thieves. In wvw i play a bunker with LR, muddy and entangle with survival cd trait. It really messes people up. But I do tend to prefer SoW for spvp.

personally, ive switched to double raven power bunker because it's faster paced than stacking bleeds. but the bleed stacking tank will always be one of my fav builds.

Edited by Umie, 26 January 2013 - 01:32 AM.


#19 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

I was curious if you had tried Runes of the Dolyak with that build. Between Regen, Signet, and that you'd have 3 different heals ticking per second.

I'm also curious if anyone has managed to be successful with this sort of build with Greatsword and Sword + X ?




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