128 replies to this topic

[Strife025]

DPS Mesmer Guide for Speed Dungeon Running

So I currently have guides for guardians and warriors that I use for organized dungeon groups, which all my speed run guides are based off of. I finally got around to completing my mesmer guide to complete the entire group comp that we use for organized dungeon runs. Included are my other guides:

http://www.guildwars...guardian-build/
http://www.guildwars...-dungeon-build/

I have been asked quite a bit what the mesmers in my groups run, so today I bring you the mesmer build that I currently use for dungeons. This build provides alot of utility to the group that guardians/warriors don't have, as well as providing very good damage as the non-primary dps class (warrior) as well. The video guide can be found below:


Also you can find this build in action on my youtube page with various dungeons from guardian, mesmer, and/or warrior perspective. More will be coming in the future:
https://www.youtube.com/strife025

Overview:
So while I don't have nearly the amount of experience on my mesmer as my guardian and warrior, I've learned alot just from running dungeons hundreds of times and observing what it takes to make a successful group comp. This guide should provide a good starting point with real world examples through my dungeon guides to show the usefulness that this mesmer build brings to organized dungeon runs. It provides very good personal damage, as well as a huge benefit to the group for bursting down bosses and clearing dps check events, all while providing alot of utility through various skills such as portals, stealth, boon stripping, and boon transfers. These things are all very important for dungeons and really fill in the missing holes for a guadian/warrior group.

Build and Equipment:
Build: http://gw2buildcraft...1.34.3m.38.3q|e
If you prefer, you can go a shatter build as well, which would be 20-20-0-0-30 or 10-30-0-0-30. If you are not using glamour skills or reflects, then ultimately shatter build will do more dps at the cost of utility you aren't using, so something like CoF1 farming would benefit from a pure shatter build. In an organized group with 3 warriors who do significantly more damage then you though, in harder dungeons and instances where reflects do help (i.e. Arah, Fractals) then giving more group survivability through reflects at the cost of a small amount of personal damage so the 3 warriors can maximize their dps offers more to overall group dps. This is what my build and guide will be in relation to.

This build focuses on keeping illiusions/phantasms up to increase your personal dps, especially before using timewarp. You still want to use shatter for damage and vuln stacking when you think your illusions are going to die as well. I prefer the added utility and cooldown on focus that the inspiration line brings over slightly higher dps from shattering.

While the build above has some basic utility skills, unlike guardian and warrior you will be using many more different utility skills based on the current dungeon and specific boss/event in a dungeon. There's not really one set skill setup or a few skills that you would keep to like guardian/warrior. I will get to the skills more later.

As far as gear goes, you want to go straight berserker gear on everything. Since Mesmer is a light armor class and has quite a few skills to avoid damage (stealth, invuln time, illusions, better ranged options) I find it useless to balance any gear with knights when you are going for a berserker dps build. Berserker stats can be crafted, certain pieces can be obtained with karma, or you can use CoF, CoE, and Arah dungeon tokens. So there are quite a few options for berserker gear.

For jewelery, again all berserker and if you do manage to get ascended gear, you want berserker for that as well.

For armor sockets, I run all ruby orbs, which are the best and cheapest option for straight damage builds.

For weapons, again berserker, with sword/focus mainhand, and Greatsword as your offhand to swap if you find yourself in danger. You do want to try and stay in melee as much as possible, because the auto attack on sword has ~3x the dps as greatsword, and provide group benefits through vuln stacking and boon stripping.

I use Sigil of Accuracy on my sword, Sigil of Bloodlust on focus (can use force or night as well for straight % damage if you get downed alot), and Sigil of Energy on Greatsword. Sigil of Energy is great because it gives you an immediate escape if you need to get to ranged and have no endurance, and it also gives you an extra dodge to create an illusion which is highly beneficial in this build, for both shattering and keeping illusions up for % damage.

You should have 59% base crit chance and 99 crit damage, with warriors in your group giving almost 100% fury uptime, banners, and omnomberry food, this should be boosted to ~86% crit chance.

The MOST important thing that you need to remember in dungeons, is to eat FOOD. Omnomberry Pies/Ghosts give a 66% chance on crit to heal 338 health, they are amazing on every crit based dps build. Food is what will give any dps class very good survivability without sacrificing dps.

Skills & Mechanics:
Now as I mentioned earlier, the skills for mesmer are much more broad, and really depends on what you are doing in a dungeon. I will go through the more useful skills that I have used and give examples of when I would equip them:

General/Stun Breaker skills
Decoy: This is a good all around skill, whether you are fighting or running through trash. The fact that it is a stun breaker, provides a clone, and gives stealth to relieve pressure or run through mobs to delay or lose agro really makes it a great skill. I will use this most of the time when I don't need other specific skills, and I will almost always use it when running through trash. You always want at least one stun breaker, so if you don't take decoy, take one of the next two skills.

Blink: Another great all around skill, this again is an excellent 'running' skill and will be very useful for escaping mobs, getting out of things which would normally trap you (i.e. Subject Alpha Crystal, GL green dome in phase 3 if you don't have stability, anything that stuns you, etc.) and again, it's a stun breaker.

Mirror Images: The third useful stun breaker. I don't use this skill as often as decoy or blink, but I will put it on my bar for a dps check event when I know I want to constantly spam and have illusions up since it provides 2 illusions along with it's stun breaker.

'Running' Skills
Besides the above skills, there are a couple other skills that I specifically use for running through trash

Veil: An extremely good skill for running trash in dungeons when speed running. This isn't a skill you usually want to use before starting your trash run, instead you want to use it to lose agro at the end of runs. A good example is in CoE Path 2/3 when running to the 2nd Subject Alpha fight. You can use it at the end of the run to release all agro and not have to fight anything running from the Cannon event to the second Alpha fight. It is also extremely useful for many trash runs in Arah.

Mimic: Along with being able to store a projectile that an enemy casts at you, another major benefit of this skill is the projectile absorbtion when running through trash mobs that damage you via projectiles. This can be a situational skill that may sometimes be useful over something like decoy.

Situational Skills
Portal: Portal is a highly valuable and highly situational skill that is unique to mesmer. I think most people are aware of how powerful it is in WvW/PvP, but it can be extremely useful when speed running dungeons as well. It can quickly help your party get across trap rooms like in CoF1 or the CoE laser trap, as well as speed up many dungeons by allowing mesmers to run ahead with stealth/blink to advance the rest of your party through harder sections of dungeons.

Arcane Thievery: This is an amazing skill for bosses that have long uptime boons on them. You can use this skill to steal their boon and give it to yourself (and your party with the next skill I will talk about). Examples of bosses where this is useful is the Golem Turret boss in all 3 paths of CoE and many fractal bosses like the Dredge Champion in Dredge Fractal, the captain at the end of Ascalon Fractal, and the Jellyfish in the Underwater Fractal.

Signet of Inspiration: This signet can be amazing for both spreading long duration boons with Arcane Thievery, and for stacking might intensity and fury duration when you have multiple warriors casting 'For Great Justice'. I always use this in conjunction with Arcane Thievery, and for dps bursting easy bosses for spreading around might and fury stacks from the warriors in my group. If you are only using this Signet for the passive you are making a huge mistake.

Signet of Illusions: I don't personally use this in my build, but it can be very beneficial for a shatter build to recharge all of your shatters, especially distortion for more survivability.

Feedback: This is another great skill and I use it quite a bit. Along with Guardian reflections, and your focus skills, you should have near 100% uptime for projectile reflection/absorbtion for any fights that have alot of projectile damage. Especially useful for dungeons like CM, Arah, and Fractals, as well as pretty much any boss that has huge projectile attacks that can be reflected for massive damage.

Null Field: I admit that I don't use this skill very much because we already have plenty of condition removal in a guardian/warrior group. But this skill is great for heavy condition damage fights, especially if you don't have a guardian with soldier runes and your warriors using 'Shake it off'. It's just that shouts are much more practical when running through trash or fighting without needing to stand in a field to remove conditions. Still can be useful for certain groups/events.

Mantra of Concentration: This is really the only mantra I use, but it is a huge help because it is your stability option when you need it. It is pretty much required when running through certain Arah trash (like path 2) and if you want to melee GL like I do. Use this when you need stability and it stun breaks as well which is useful. It has a charge time, but you get 2 casts of it and you can charge it well in advance because it pretty much stays on your bar forever unless you get downed or zone.


So as you can see, Mesmer has a huge range of useful skills that bring quite a bit of utility to the group. These are the main skills I use, although many of the other skills can be useful as well depending on your group. While Guardians mainly use shouts and reflection skills, and Warriors use dps shouts, banners, and some stances, Memsers have an array of skills that require you to constantly think ahead and switching skills based on the dungeon/event/boss. I find myself switching skills much more then either my Guardian or Warrior. This is the type of role that Mesmer fills out in a heavy armor group.

As far as combat mechanics go, you do want to try and stay in sword range as much as possible, because of how much more damage it provides over greatsword. The vuln stacking and boon stripping is also a huge benefit for your group. Usually you want to use your F1 and F3 shatter when you know your illusions are going to die, and try to keep them up (especially for time warp) for the 3% more damage per illusion. I usually start the fight with Greatsword, quickly cast Mirror Blade, iBerserker, Mindstab (and possibly the knockback) before switching to sword/focus to melee and use focus pulls or reflects. Focus pull is highly underrated and if you aren't using your focus to pull, you are not maximizing your potential with mesmer. My video guide does a good job showing the potential of mesmer focus pulls, and the huge increase in dps for your party by grouping up mobs for maximum AoE and Cleave damage. It is also great to interrupt mobs and pull them behind you when running through trash. If you know you're in a dungeon/boss fight where you won't use Greatsword at all, another option is Sword/Focus + Sword/Sword using the same sword for both loadouts which will give you more options while in melee range without interrupting your attacks. You can also throw a Sigil of Battle on your mainhand sword, and everytime you swap sets you will get the benefit of battle by only having it on your mainhand weapon.

The mesmer playstyle is very dynamic, and you have to manage alot more things between utilities, positioning, illusions, and shattering. This is something I am still practicing as I get more experience on mesmer, but it is a nice change and gives you options along with your guardian and warrior.

Conclusion:
Hopefully this guide helps to show what a Mesmer can bring to a dungeon group. Their  burst damage, great utility, and boon stripping is a huge benefit for the ability of a group to quickly and efficiently clear dungeons. They are what a Guardian/Warrior group really needs to fill out the party so that it can synergize to clear the current content quickly and efficiently. Don't let the lack of a pure trinity and random uneducated dungeon runners let you think that classes and roles don't exist. If you want to run dungeons easily without pulling your hair out, there are still optimal classes and roles just like any MMO. The pseudo trinity is still tank/dps/support as it currently stands, and this mesmer build is the prime example of the dps/utility role in a group. This trinity is much looser then most other MMOs, but it still exists in GW2. If you think otherwise, you probably haven't run dungeons in an efficient, team-work based group before.

Thanks for reading, and good luck out there

Edited by Strife025, 03 April 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Eleasar]

Thanks for this great guide (as well as your others)! Makes me want to level my Mesmer now further

[Gaoku]

thank you. ive been following you around for warrior guardian and now mesmer. thanks for the work. appreciated

[Legatus Leaf]

Also, thanks for the tutorial in using "Into the Void" for grouping up enemies.

[Elysen]

I had no idea you had a Mesmer strife. Happy you do, as this is a trusted source I can use as guidelines for my own Mesmer that's approaching 80.

EDIT: I noticed a lot of sudden silence when you stopped speaking in your video, even between phrases, as if your mic cut out, or they were recording seperately and editted together. Any chance you could work on this for future videos, its quite offputting.

Edited by Xephenon, 22 January 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[Strife025]

Xephenon, on 22 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I had no idea you had a Mesmer strife. Happy you do, as this is a trusted source I can use as guidelines for my own Mesmer that's approaching 80.

EDIT: I noticed a lot of sudden silence when you stopped speaking in your video, even between phrases, as if your mic cut out, or they were recording seperately and editted together. Any chance you could work on this for future videos, its quite offputting.

Is it just the last 3 minutes in fireheart rise where you notice this?

[Ottosteve]

No mention of Time Warp?

It's been my experience in dungeons that two Mesmers in the party coordinating Time Warp on bosses makes the fights go alot faster.

[Elysen]

Strife025, on 22 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Is it just the last 3 minutes in fireheart rise where you notice this?

No it's practically all throughout. I've never noticed in any other videos of yours, just this one. Is it a new mic, as your voice also sounded different?

Ottosteve, on 22 January 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

No mention of Time Warp?

It's been my experience in dungeons that two Mesmers in the party coordinating Time Warp on bosses makes the fights go alot faster.

TW doesn't need to be mentioned ever. It's a given. I'm sure it was mentioned regardless

Edited by Xephenon, 22 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[KodiakX]

I use something very similar to this build for my all purposes build.

Phantasm Dungeon Runner

I mean points wise and focus are near identical except I also crank up the damage on my Phantasms to ridiculous levels.  Usually they die, but the huge burst they deal in their life span is absurd.  +30%, Fury and Bleed on crits just makes each Phantasm cool down unbelievably absurd.

Important thing to note about Null Field is it also is Boon removal each tick which is great for bosses that do it constantly especially when you can't melee.

I'll also say that in general I'm pretty guilty of sitting back using my Great Sword as well unless I can melee freely without concern.

[Strife025]

Xephenon, on 22 January 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

No it's practically all throughout. I've never noticed in any other videos of yours, just this one. Is it a new mic, as your voice also sounded different?



TW doesn't need to be mentioned ever. It's a given. I'm sure it was mentioned regardless

Hm I mainly was having issues with the last section of the video, maybe I'll listen closer later and re-take some parts to upload again.

Someone else mentioned sounding different, like I was sick, it's probably because I made this right when I woke up where most of my dungeon videos are made when I get home from work in the evening.

And yea like Xeph said, I figured Time Warp is a given since the other elites are pretty useless for PvE and the fact that I mention it throughout my guide in reference to other skills and when talking about bursting down bosses and dps check events.

Edited by Strife025, 22 January 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[Digilodger]

I run a similar build; the only difference is the allocation of the last 5 trait points.  Yours is 20/20/0/20/10; mine is 20/20/0/25/5.  

Now that I'm looking at yours, I wonder which is more useful, Compounding Power vs. Phantasmal Strength

Edited by Digilodger, 24 January 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Fenice_86]

I'd like to ask (hope not going off topic too much) if beside this optimized build for organized group, are there effective builds for pugs and/or leveling?
I've read many topics here but none really satisfied my need of knowledge

[Fenice_86]

Oh also wanted to add a couple of questions about gears:

you stated about going 100% full berserk in everything which is fine for me but...
as an un-experienced mesmer's player (altought i have an ele so i perfectly know the meaning of "squishyness" ) would u suggest a mix of Pwr/Vit/Tou along with Zerker gears? (like 2/4 or 3/3) ...
Jewels and weapons will still be Full Zerk only.

Also about runes... beside rubies which runes could be usefull?

Thanks a lot

PS: sry for bad english

Edited by Fenice_86, 24 January 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Swoopeh]

I've been trying to get to grips with sword/focus but I don't really get it. Most likely it just takes a lot more practice because as melee you need to be much more aware of whats happening. Also I suck at melee in GW2 but since in other games I've always played melee I'm adamant to make it work. So a few basic questions for OP or anyone who can comment on this:

- S/F seems to be slightly more damage than GS. With GS I do: mirror blade/izerker/mind stab/1 set of basic attack/dodge(clone)/shatter and most mobs of the same level will be dead by then. This takes about 5 sec. With S/F I do leap/dodge toward(clone)/warden/blurred frenzy/shatter. Same result in 4 sec. BUT you're in melee so much higher risk of death, you can't move during Frenzy or it's a huge DPS loss and Warden is stationary. Ofc if I replace staff with S/F and run it alongside GS that would be a pure damage boost. Is that the general idea or am I doing something wrong here?

- Usually I run GS/staff and switch to staff when there's a lot of incoming damage, using Chaos Storm to get Aegis (or put one on someone I'm ressing so we block hits). With S/F what do you do when having avoid a lot of damage you can't dodge everything or when you want to res someone and prevent damage for a few sec? Focus 4 with reflect and shatter 4 for invuln? If so and you don't have any clones up at that point it would take a few sec to set that up, is that an issue?

- The focus pull seems random. Sometimes mobs get pulled into it, other times they get pulled into and then fly out the other side, basically creating the same separation only mirrored. Known issue or am I missing something?


- More of an overall issue with melee (though I find guardian much easier), I feel that in melee there's very little connection between mobs and the character. I can't see whats going on and sometimes even lose track of where my char is on screen, let alone be able to dodge damage. I can use shatter 3 (daze) to avoid getting hit but other than that it seems just dodging at random and hoping it helps. How do others deal with this?

[Elysen]

Swoopeh, on 24 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

- The focus pull seems random. Sometimes mobs get pulled into it, other times they get pulled into and then fly out the other side, basically creating the same separation only mirrored. Known issue or am I missing something?

I believe the range of the pull is 600. Place the curtain 600 range away from enemies and they'll bunch up together.

[Strife025]

Fenice_86, on 24 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Oh also wanted to add a couple of questions about gears:

you stated about going 100% full berserk in everything which is fine for me but...
as an un-experienced mesmer's player (altought i have an ele so i perfectly know the meaning of "squishyness" ) would u suggest a mix of Pwr/Vit/Tou along with Zerker gears? (like 2/4 or 3/3) ...
Jewels and weapons will still be Full Zerk only.

Also about runes... beside rubies which runes could be usefull?

Thanks a lot

PS: sry for bad english

For pugs many people use shatter or phantasm builds, they just end up staying at ranged more and using Greatsword if they don't have a guardian for instance to relieve pressure off dps classes. I don't really know much about leveling since at this point I end up crafting to 40, getting dungeon xp until like 65, then just doing high level map completion for exotics, so I don't really level much in the traditional way.

Since Mesmer is a light armor class, I don't believe in trying to balance. You can go something like full knights if you really need to, but if you're running dps and berserker just go full berserker. Trying to throw in 2-3 pieces of toughness gear is just going to get you to the point where you have the same armor as a full berserker warrior anyways, so I consider it a waste. You'll still get downed 2-3 big attacks; mesmer is more about using skills to avoid damage.

For dps builds, rubies are pretty much the best because its 120 power, 84 precision, and 12% crit damage which really can't be matched by pure damage through runes. Everything else people have suggested just doesn't seem to compare and usually costs quite a bit more.

Swoopeh, on 24 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

- S/F seems to be slightly more damage than GS. With GS I do: mirror blade/izerker/mind stab/1 set of basic attack/dodge(clone)/shatter and most mobs of the same level will be dead by then. This takes about 5 sec. With S/F I do leap/dodge toward(clone)/warden/blurred frenzy/shatter. Same result in 4 sec. BUT you're in melee so much higher risk of death, you can't move during Frenzy or it's a huge DPS loss and Warden is stationary. Ofc if I replace staff with S/F and run it alongside GS that would be a pure damage boost. Is that the general idea or am I doing something wrong here?

- Usually I run GS/staff and switch to staff when there's a lot of incoming damage, using Chaos Storm to get Aegis (or put one on someone I'm ressing so we block hits). With S/F what do you do when having avoid a lot of damage you can't dodge everything or when you want to res someone and prevent damage for a few sec? Focus 4 with reflect and shatter 4 for invuln? If so and you don't have any clones up at that point it would take a few sec to set that up, is that an issue?

- The focus pull seems random. Sometimes mobs get pulled into it, other times they get pulled into and then fly out the other side, basically creating the same separation only mirrored. Known issue or am I missing something?


- More of an overall issue with melee (though I find guardian much easier), I feel that in melee there's very little connection between mobs and the character. I can't see whats going on and sometimes even lose track of where my char is on screen, let alone be able to dodge damage. I can use shatter 3 (daze) to avoid getting hit but other than that it seems just dodging at random and hoping it helps. How do others deal with this?

-You're talking about a 5 second fight here. For sustained damage in boss fights s/f does way more because the auto attack damage is 3x that of the greatsword auto attack, plus adding vulnerability for your group and removing boons if needed. Of course when shattering you won't see that much difference over a normal mob that dies in 5 seconds, the difference is huge in a 1-2 minute boss fight, especially when you factor in time warp which is much more favorable towards s/f. This is a dungeon build, not a general pve/farming build. But yes it is more risky, that's why melee weapons are balanced to have higher dps, it just comes with experience and learning paths and bosses that you will fight. Also frenzy is good dps relative to staying at range, I do around 4k damage over the 2 seconds vs Greatsword auto attack which is ~1.5-2k damage over 1.5 seconds. Plus you don't have to dodge while using it so you time it to be used instead of dodge.

-Again this build is for speed running groups, specifically the build for the ones in my videos, so the group is more organized. The mesmer isn't going to be a primary rezzer, it's either going to be the guardian with aegis, or everyone that doesn't have agro. Many times when fighting trash we don't rez at all because you know the downed person will rally off whatever silver mob that is going to die. Bosses are situational, if someone does go down you do it in between attacks or the people without agro will res. Using a staff just so you can aegis for the sole purpose of rezzing people is a waste for an organized group that hardly has people go down that need a rez and are more aware of their surroundings.

-As far as the focus pull, it is not random. I have a section in my video (with a shortcut at the start you can skip right to) that explains how the focus pull works. But briefly, the focus pulls a mob ~500 range through the middle of the temporal curtain. It will always pull them ~500 range and through the middle of the curtain, meaning depending on where you place the curtain in relation to mobs, it will pull them different places. It does not make mobs stop when they hit the curtain. Part of learning mesmer is learning where to place the focus to group up mobs correctly. It is easier to see if you watch that section of my video.

Basically the main problem with PUGs is that everyone tries to be everything because they aren't sure who/what classes they will get in the group, which makes the group inefficient. The goal of my guardian, warrior, and mesmer guide plus the dungeon walkthroughs I have on my youtube page are designed for organized groups and to teach people how to efficiently run dungeons in a team and how each class is maximized in effectiveness by working together, a dungeon isn't a solo endeavor, it's about all 5 people in the dungeon synergizing together. So I'm very clear in my guides that these are for organized groups to get the most out of your class, and my dungeon guides exemplify that.

Edited by Strife025, 24 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[ObeyGiant]

I don't have a lot of posts on this board, but I have been playing my Mesmer for 250+ hours so I feel I am pretty knowledgable on the subject.

I use full berserk with Knights Legs/Rings/Helm and I feel the extra Toughness helps a lot during fights where you are getting hit a lot for smaller bits of damage. I don't quite care for Soldiers because of 1) lack of precision and 2) Vit doesn't transfer to illusions. I have reluctantly switched to a Shatter build from a clone heavy Condition damage build and am REALLY liking the HUGE increase in damage, but my first love was the PvP Legion build that relied on Phantasms and your build seems to be what I was looking for.

In a lot of fights illusions up is almost impossible, but also I am not the biggest fan of shatter builds no matter how much I play with them. I have been trying to come up with a way to get 20 in inspiration for the focus/condition removal/glamour traits and I think your build is just the ticket to add that utility I want to my build. I am going to try it out and come back with feedback for sure. I am going to to change Mental Torment to Empowered Illusions and Empowered Illusions to Greatsword Training because I typically prefer to stay at range, but this may not be the best idea. I will test this out, but would like your idea behind not picking up Greatsword Training.

I really like the Sigil of Energy idea on the GS and will give that a try for sure. I am currently using Accuracy on my GS and Force/Battle on Sword/Focus. I will switch Force to Accuracy and Accuracy to Energy, but I am thinking Battle may be > Force on my focus if I am switching weapons frequently enough ( I am not the biggest fan of the 25 stack sigils because of the loss of effect on down, which can make the sigils completely useless on long bossfights - where they are most important).

Nullfield never leaves my bar it seems. It is my favorite utility skill the Mesmer has, but that may change with Mender's Purity.

I have been using your Warrior guide for my new Warrior (definitely liking the Axe more than GS - 100 Blades root sucks) and it has been really helpful. I appreciate all of your contributions to these forums. I am sure they have helped more than just me. I will be back with feedback on your build for sure, but so far it looks really good. Glad you made a Mesmer guide

[Swoopeh]

Thanks for the extensive reply Strife

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

-You're talking about a 5 second fight here. For sustained damage in boss fights s/f does way more because the auto attack damage is 3x that of the greatsword auto attack, plus adding vulnerability for your group and removing boons if needed. Of course when shattering you won't see that much difference over a normal mob that dies in 5 seconds, the difference is huge in a 1-2 minute boss fight, especially when you factor in time warp which is much more favorable towards s/f. This is a dungeon build, not a general pve/farming build. But yes it is more risky, that's why melee weapons are balanced to have higher dps, it just comes with experience and learning paths and bosses that you will fight. Also frenzy is good dps relative to staying at range, I do around 4k damage over the 2 seconds vs Greatsword auto attack which is ~1.5-2k damage over 1.5 seconds. Plus you don't have to dodge while using it so you time it to be used instead of dodge.

True, my example was just a PvE situation where I know the variables will be similar for each mob so I can compare. Since there are no DPS meters I can't tell the difference so I'm basically using burst time as a measuring tool here, knowing that it's a rotation I often repeat. I know it's not an accurate way to measure but it's a way that I feel sort of works for me. TW benefiting s/f more and using frenzy as dodge are very good points.

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

-Again this build is for speed running groups, specifically the build for the ones in my videos, so the group is more organized. The mesmer isn't going to be a primary rezzer, it's either going to be the guardian with aegis, or everyone that doesn't have agro. Many times when fighting trash we don't rez at all because you know the downed person will rally off whatever silver mob that is going to die. Bosses are situational, if someone does go down you do it in between attacks or the people without agro will res. Using a staff just so you can aegis for the sole purpose of rezzing people is a waste for an organized group that hardly has people go down that need a rez and are more aware of their surroundings.

Just to be clear, I don't use a staff just to rez people. That was only an example of how I use it and was wondering how a similar effect could be reached with s/f (and really just how best to use daze/blur to replace aegis). I do run guild groups but not as often as I like and our makeup can vary quite a lot. I tend to try and res asap because some people don't or are unable to without risking dying themselves plus I enjoy doing so. Because of the clones I usually the last one to get aggro so I take up ressing when I can.

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

-As far as the focus pull, it is not random. I have a section in my video (with a shortcut at the start you can skip right to) that explains how the focus pull works. But briefly, the focus pulls a mob ~500 range through the middle of the temporal curtain. It will always pull them ~500 range and through the middle of the curtain, meaning depending on where you place the curtain in relation to mobs, it will pull them different places. It does not make mobs stop when they hit the curtain. Part of learning mesmer is learning where to place the focus to group up mobs correctly. It is easier to see if you watch that section of my video.

Yus Xephenon mentioned this as well, and your vid really helps understand it. Hadn't had a chance to watch it fully with sound yet hence missing that

[Fenice_86]

I say thx to the reply too

[Elysen]

ObeyGiant, on 24 January 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Nullfield never leaves my bar it seems. It is my favorite utility skill the Mesmer has, but that may change with Mender's Purity.

It depends on what your group consists of. As Strife said in his video, his warriors & guardians run with Soldier runes, so there is more than enough condition removal more often than not.

[CepaCepa]

Fenice_86, on 24 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Also about runes... beside rubies which runes could be usefull?

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

For dps builds, rubies are pretty much the best because its 120 power, 84 precision, and 12% crit damage which really can't be matched by pure damage through runes. Everything else people have suggested just doesn't seem to compare and usually costs quite a bit more.
...
You're talking about a 5 second fight here. For sustained damage in boss fights s/f does way more because the auto attack damage is 3x that of the greatsword auto attack, plus adding vulnerability for your group and removing boons if needed.

Great guide, just wanted to comment on 2 things though.

Regarding runes, a bit of calculation can be helpful here.

Rubies:

120 power = ~ 5% damage in full berserkers at 80
84 precision = 4% crit at 80, assuming 90% crit damage, that is (240 - 100)% X 4% = ~5.5% damage increase for weapon and shatter damage. Since phantasms don't benefit from armor/accessory/weapon stats, they have around 40% crit damage, that is (190-100)% X 4% = ~ 3.5% damage increase for phantasms.
12% crit damage = assuming again 90% critical damage, 12% / 240% = 5% damage increase, and 12% / 190% = 6% for phantasms.

In total, assuming 1/2 your damage comes from weapon/shatter and 1/2 comes from phantasms, that's 5 + 4.5 + 5.5 = 15% total damage increase for you.

Superior Rune of the Scholar:

165 power = ~ 7% damage in full berserkers at 80
8% crit damage = assuming 90% critical damage for you and 40% for your phantasms, this is 8% / 240% = 3% for you, and 8% / 190% = 4% for you phantasm, averaging 3.5%.
6th set bonus = 10% damage as long as your health stays above 90%.

In total: assuming always staying at 100%, full supeior runes of the scholar gives you 20.5% damage increase. In fact, as long as you can keep your health above 90% around 50% of the time, superior runes of the scholar is, well, superior (15.5%-20.5% versus 15%).

Now that I'm approaching lvl 60 fractal on my mesmer, I find myself almost exclusively staying at 90%+, especially with nether feast's short CD to top myself off immediately after some burn/bleed damage. The thing is, if I get hit, I down directly. There's only 100% or down state, no middle ground whatsoever (except again, burn/bleed/poison). To stay alive, I need to dodge/evade everything and thus stay at 100% anyways, and I find that if I'm alive, over 90% of the time (and in a good run, nearly 100% of the time) I'm at 100% health.

But of course, superior runes of the scholar is 1. dependent on your dodge/evade skills and 2. WAY MORE expensive. So ultimately, unless you're loaded, getting ruby orbs is definitely a great choice. But I'm just saying, there is an alternative that may provide you with better dps, IF you're on top of your game.

Second point is that, sword auto attack damage is definitely not 3X that of greatsword, it is higher, but not 3 X. Greatsword makes up for it with mirror blade and mind stab on CD. I did some testing on both LA dummy and PvP lobby some time ago, can't remember the exact numbers, but basically overall with all the CDs (#2 on Sword, #2 and #3 on GS) and assuming max range, greatsword comes out slightly to noticeably ahead of sword (depending on your trait/bouncing position). And this is assuming you're staying full time in melee with Sword, which definitely do not happen. The advantage of sword, in my eyes, is the ease of 4-illusion shatter and the 2 second evasion, WHILE doing quite good damage, but not the raw damage itself. Another advantage of Sword is not really an "advantage" but I guess just a downside of GS --- #2 hits like a truck but overwrites your third phantasms with a clone. Hence for stand-there-and-own fights where 3 iWarlock are each hitting for 10K+, it's better to use Sword over GS due to GS's dps drops noticeably once #2 can't be casted. I'll do more testing to make sure the numbers still stand when I get home today.

Also, focus on the offhand --- While it certainly have very nice utilities, the dps loss due to iWarden (almost 1/2 the sustained damage of a iSwordman or iDuelist because the recharge = 12.4 second even after traits) as well as the longer summon CD makes me wonder. I mean I use it, for #4 mostly and sometimes for iWarden's protection, but not for raw damage itself unless it's an aoe situation where mobs won't move in 5 seconds. I'm mentioning this particularly because you've mentioned that this build is aimed for a fast run, during which dps should be maximized. For aoe situations where mobs don't move much or are CCed, sure iWarden is great, we only have 2 phantasms able to do aoe afterall. But for single target fights, shouldn't one switch to something else? For example, in a dungeon group where lots of conditions are loaded onto mobs/boss, iWarlock's dps by itself is strong enough to use staff over almost anything else, despite wind of chao's horrible damage...

Edited by CepaCepa, 24 January 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[Strife025]

CepaCepa, on 24 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Great guide, just wanted to comment on 2 things though.

Regarding runes, a bit of calculation can be helpful here.

Rubies:

120 power = ~ 5% damage in full berserkers at 80
84 precision = 4% crit at 80, assuming 90% crit damage, that is (240 - 100)% X 4% = ~5.5% damage increase for weapon and shatter damage. Since phantasms don't benefit from armor/accessory/weapon stats, they have around 40% crit damage, that is (190-100)% X 4% = ~ 3.5% damage increase for phantasms.
12% crit damage = assuming again 90% critical damage, 12% / 240% = 5% damage increase, and 12% / 190% = 6% for phantasms.

In total, assuming 1/2 your damage comes from weapon/shatter and 1/2 comes from phantasms, that's 5 + 4.5 + 5.5 = 15% total damage increase for you.

Superior Rune of the Scholar:

165 power = ~ 7% damage in full berserkers at 80
8% crit damage = assuming 90% critical damage for you and 40% for your phantasms, this is 8% / 240% = 3% for you, and 8% / 190% = 4% for you phantasm, averaging 3.5%.
6th set bonus = 10% damage as long as your health stays above 90%.

In total: assuming always staying at 100%, full supeior runes of the scholar gives you 20.5% damage increase. In fact, as long as you can keep your health above 90% around 50% of the time, superior runes of the scholar is, well, superior (15.5%-20.5% versus 15%).

Now that I'm approaching lvl 60 fractal on my mesmer, I find myself almost exclusively staying at 90%+, especially with nether feast's short CD to top myself off immediately after some burn/bleed damage. The thing is, if I get hit, I down directly. There's only 100% or down state, no middle ground whatsoever (except again, burn/bleed/poison). To stay alive, I need to dodge/evade everything and thus stay at 100% anyways, and I find that if I'm alive, over 90% of the time (and in a good run, nearly 100% of the time) I'm at 100% health.

But of course, superior runes of the scholar is 1. dependent on your dodge/evade skills and 2. WAY MORE expensive. So ultimately, unless you're loaded, getting ruby orbs is definitely a great choice. But I'm just saying, there is an alternative that may provide you with better dps, IF you're on top of your game.

Second point is that, sword auto attack damage is definitely not 3X that of greatsword, it is higher, but greatsword makes up for it with mirror blade and mind stab on CD. I did some testing on both LA dummy and PvP lobby some time ago, can't remember the exact numbers, but basically overall with all the CDs (#2 on Sword, #2 and #3 on GS) Greatsword comes out slightly to noticeably ahead of sword (depending on your trait/bouncing position). And this is assuming you're staying full time in melee with Sword, which definitely do not happen. The advantage of sword, in my eyes, is the ease of 4-illusion shatter and the 2 second evasion, WHILE doing quite good damage, but not the raw damage itself. However, I'll do more testing to make sure of the numbers since my memory fails me.

Also, focus on the offhand --- While it certainly have very nice utilities, the dps loss due to iWarden (almost 1/2 the sustained damage of a iSwordman or iDuelist because the recharge = 12.4 second even after traits) as well as the longer summon CD makes me wonder. I mean I use it, for #4 mostly and sometimes for iWarden's protection, but not for raw damage itself unless it's an aoe situation where mobs won't move in 5 seconds. I'm mentioning this particularly because you've mentioned that this is aimed for a fast run, during which dps should be maximized. For aoe situations where mobs don't move much or are CCed, sure iWarden is great, we only have 2 phantasms able to do aoe afterall. But for single target fights, shouldn't one switch to something else? For example, in a dungeon group where lots of conditions are loaded onto mobs/boss, iWarlock's dps by itself is strong enough to use staff over sword, despite wind of chao's horrible damage...

Thanks for the insight on the scholar rune, I generally stay away from the % damage above 90% health but yes, if you can maintain full health then 10% base damage is pretty huge. In normal dungeons I do find myself under full health in certain boss fights, so I generally go rubies (and the fact that they are cheaper.) But I can see this being an alternative if you want to spend the gold, especially for certain fractals.

Mirror Blade doesn't really offer more damage over sword, especially with the cast time, even with bounces you have to consider that if mirror blade were to bounce to 3 targets, sword would also cleave and hit 3 targets. Mind Stab does offer more dps then an auto attack, but it's not very often so it's not going to make up for the other 10 seconds when it's on cooldown. I don't see how GS can do more damage then sword when a GS auto attack does 1.8k damage at max range vs 4.4k on sword over the same time period, even with mirror blade and mind stab. Granted iBerserker would cut that down because of it's fast cast so it wouldn't really be 3x as much damage, but the cleave from sword as well is huge for more then one target which can come up alot because of natural cleave.

You are right about iWarden though, I generally only cast it at the start of a fight, if I know it will stay up for the full duration, quickly in a time warp, or if I need reflect. I run focus mainly for the #4 because of how powerful the pull is, the reflect, and the fact that the added dps you bring to your group running a 2 guard/2 war or a 1guard/3 war like the ones I run by grouping them up for maximum cleave dps far outweighs what you would get with pistol.

Granted in certain boss fights you are right that it would be better to equip pistol or something in offhand for higher dps when you know you don't need focus reflect or pulls, which is why I carry all my extra weapons (except torch :x) as well.

[CepaCepa]

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Mirror Blade doesn't really offer more damage over sword, especially with the cast time, even with bounces you have to consider that if mirror blade were to bounce to 3 targets, sword would also cleave and hit 3 targets. Mind Stab does offer more dps then an auto attack, but it's not very often so it's not going to make up for the other 10 seconds when it's on cooldown. I don't see how GS can do more damage then sword when a GS auto attack does 1.8k damage at max range vs 4.4k on sword over the same time period, even with mirror blade and mind stab. Granted iBerserker would cut that down because of it's fast cast so it wouldn't really be 3x as much damage, but the cleave from sword as well is huge for more then one target which can come up alot because of natural cleave.

Just to follow up with the GS vs Sword damage, I think you've misread (I shouldn't say misread --- The tooltip are misleading and sometimes flat out wrong) the casting time of our skills --- Spatial surge says it has a 1.5 second cast time. But with testing hundreds of times, that time is for sure, 1.3 second including animation and all. Sword on the other hand, the 3-hit chain takes 2.5 second even though the tooltip states otherwise (tooltip only include cast time anyways, not animation CD). I did some more testing on LA dummies, timing and all --- Sword #1 has slightly higher dps than GS standing at 900 + range assuming same sigil. GS #1 cast time is now 1.3 second per 3 hit at an average of 1250 damage without crit/condition/boons (960 dps). Sword chain takes 2.5 seconds and hit for 700 - 700 - 1200 on average, so a total of 2600 damage over 2.5 second (1040 dps). Mirror blade is 0.9 animation that does 900 damage per bounce, but it bounces 3 times hitting 4 target without trait, OR bounces 4 times hitting 5 targets with trait. On a single target, this means that without trait, as long as there's either a mob or a player standing beside the target, the target gets hit twice (without trait) and 3 times (with trait), given the 5 second CD (with trait), this is significant dps increase due to the 0.9 sec cast time.

More specifically, every 10 second a player can use mirror blade X 2 + mind stab X 1 + Spatial Surge X 6 (0.9 X 2 + 0.5 + 1.3 X 6 = 10.1 seconds) = 3600 + 1150 + 8100 = 12600 damage with 2 bounces onto the intended target, OR 14400 damage with 3 bounces onto the same target, not including the addition damage or the 3/6 stacks of might and the 6/9 stack of vulnerability that it can apply or the bouncing damage on additional mobs (because like you said, the sword cleave can also do, so we're disregarding that). So in Greatsword, assuming one doesn't always get the best bounces, basically we're sitting at between 1200 to 1400 dps without any crit/condition/boon/phantasm/clone from GS alone.

For sword, since Blurred Frenzy with trait is 2 second CD BUT the CD starts AFTER the 2 second cast is finished, basically for every 10 seconds one can use Blurred Frenzy once. Without crit/condition/boons blade flurry hits for an average of 2800 damage. So within every 10 seconds, a player can squeeze in: 3 chains (7.5 seconds, 2600 X 3 = 7800 damage), 1 blade flurry (2800 damage, 2 seconds) as well as an additional auto attack (0.7 second, 700 damage), to a total of  11300 damage over 10 second = 1130 dps. Sword being a one hand weapon means there's an additional sigil that adds around 4-5% damage, putting it at almost identical dps as GS.

Really, for the purpose of a dps mesmer, 1130 dps and 1200-1400 doesn't make too much of a difference, especially considering the positioning requirement of greatsword. But sword also has its own requirement --- melee range. Sword attacks all cleave 3 targets, Greatsword can hit up to 5 targets with both #2 and #3, so in my opinion they're pretty much similar purpose mainhand weapons that are suited for different positioning. If you're forced into close range with the mob, you'll lose SOME dps on GS, but not THAT much due to #2 and #3. #1 damage drops by 1/3, to a total of approximately 20% dps loss if you're in melee range. An additional factor is that if you're within melee range of the mob, you can almost guarantee that the mirror blade will bounce onto the mob 2 or 3 times depending on trait, that makes up for some of the 20% drop in damage due to the 6 stack of might on you and the extra bounce damage. But like I said Sword has the 2 second evasion that is a life saver, as well as not having a clone that overwrites the third phantasm like mirror blade.

Basically I guess I'm just suggesting that it should be justified for a berserker mesmer to equip ONE (you absolutely can equip both, but 1 is enough for optimal weapon damage's sake) of GS or Sword, both these weapons can function as "optimal weapon damage", and depending on player style the other weapon set can be used for its phantasm damage (like iWarlock/iDuleist/iSwordman) or for its utility (sword #2, focus #4, pistol #5, staff #2 and #5). I took GS + Staff because iWarlock hitting for 10-15K with might stacks is just too good to pass up. Besides, often I need to swap weapon to make the most out of phantasm CDs, but I can't go into melee at those moments, so I'm stuck with 8 seconds of standing at range looking at the boss --- Even wind of chao's horrible damage (not THAT bad with extra bounce trait) that's better than standing there doing nothing, so I chose staff instead of sword. I do understand though that you're talking about speed runs, and in those situations 1. aoe is preferred and 2. there's nearly no threat of dying and hence no need to keep the distance from mobs, so your choice definitely make sense.

Edited by CepaCepa, 25 January 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[ObeyGiant]

Xephenon, on 24 January 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

It depends on what your group consists of. As Strife said in his video, his warriors & guardians run with Soldier runes, so there is more than enough condition removal more often than not.

Ya I usually do PuGs and am not that high level in Fractals yet - which I would guess most other people are closer to me in progress than the OP. If I grouped with Guardians with Soldier runes all the time I would never run Null Field. But I would say most people don't always have that luxury and I don't want people to overlook a great skill.

I find in most situations where it really matters that I can't really get into melee range and effectively use my sword's dps without putting myself in unnecessary danger. So I tend to do LESS damage when switching to sword. I have always been a believer in the sword and pretty against GS/Staff build, but lately I have been using my GS almost exclusively for combat and Sword/Focus mainly for the 4 skill to travel.

Using full Berserk's in a Phantasm build has been making me want to try out a GS/Staff build and this is what I have come up with.

http://en.gw2skills....FwOSKaNVrkCe7CB

I agree that the sword is better in pure defense than the staff. But the Phantasm is very strong (and ranged for situations that call for it) and Phase Retreat/Chaos Armor/Storm isn't terrible IME. The lack of mobility from focus is weak sauce though. How much damage do you think I would lose if I switched to Runes of the Centaur? The swiftness would be nice I think. I like to WvW and would like to try this build in WvW, but without swiftness I'm scared . That is definitely one thing I love about this class. There seems to be TONS of viable builds out there.

Also I was wondering about Sigil of Force in the staff. Would the 5% extra damage work on iWarlock when I switch back to the GS (if at all)?

[Strife025]

CepaCepa, on 25 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

snip

Gotcha, thanks for the math and explanations.

I see how single target GS is closer to Sword, but you are right then in speed runs when we go for burst AoE with melee weapons on groups of mobs and in time warp with vuln stacking from sword on bosses, I do find it better if you can stay alive in melee range which isn't as tough in more organized groups.

Maybe this weekend I'll re-upload a new video that fixes some of the voice cut outs at the end and re-edit the part with the GS vs Sword.

[Swoopeh]

CepaCepa, on 25 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Stuff

This is sort of what I felt about sword vs GS and the reason for my first question regarding the DPS difference, glad I'm not totally delusional

[heatrr]

I run full zerks, as well with a trait layout of 20/30/0/10/10 and do just fine in dungeons, PvE, and WvW as long as I (my holy mesmer trinity) maintain distance, kite, and pay attention to my surrounding at all times.  Obviously, I am using runes of the Centaur given I mainly use my GS/Staff mesmer in WvW cause it (my mesmer) simply wrecks stuff flat out, again, as long as I maintain my memser holy trinity.

And Strife, I have followed you a long time since your Dungeon Guardian. Dude, now a Mesmer - you have no life whatsoever.

That said, I noticed that in your video, you mention that iZerker hardly ever lives to do a second pass - I beg to differ given I run my mesmer extensively, if not solely in a WvW environment, and find that my iZerker, probably about 50% of the time, will indeed survive to do a second pass. And lol on your mention of hating mesmer's that sit back and play range. Its a matter of playstyle dude, and one that I am quite proficient at (hence you have your playstyle and other mesmers have theirs). You can always come playtest your mesmer with or against mine in WvW though, anytime.

Edited by heatrr, 26 January 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Nazara]

CepaCepa, on 25 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

*text*

What stats do you have on your staff/pistol? Pow/Prec/CritDmg - Condi?

[Strife025]

heatrr, on 26 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

I run full zerks, as well with a trait layout of 20/30/0/10/10 and do just fine in dungeons, PvE, and WvW as long as I (my holy mesmer trinity) maintain distance, kite, and pay attention to my surrounding at all times.  Obviously, I am using runes of the Centaur given I mainly use my GS/Staff mesmer in WvW cause it (my mesmer) simply wrecks stuff flat out, again, as long as I maintain my memser holy trinity.

And Strife, I have followed you a long time since your Dungeon Guardian. Dude, now a Mesmer - you have no life whatsoever.

That said, I noticed that in your video, you mention that iZerker hardly ever lives to do a second pass - I beg to differ given I run my mesmer extensively, if not solely in a WvW environment, and find that my iZerker, probably about 50% of the time, will indeed survive to do a second pass. And lol on your mention of hating mesmer's that sit back and play range. Its a matter of playstyle dude, and one that I am quite proficient at (hence you have your playstyle and other mesmers have theirs). You can always come playtest your mesmer with or against mine in WvW though, anytime.

My guide is for PvE dungeons... of course you don't melee in WvW.

I don't even have my sword equipped there.

Ranged in PvE is a crutch for people who aren't familiar with the dungeons/bosses (most of the time) at the cost of lower dps. Obviously there's a few times you need to range, I'm talking about the people who range the entire time in dungeons even when they could go into melee, especially when killing groups.

[CepaCepa]

Nazara, on 26 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

What stats do you have on your staff/pistol? Pow/Prec/CritDmg - Condi?

Staff = berserker, lvl 80 exotic. I have a rampager staff too but for this testing I used berserker for consistency. I also have both berserker and rampager pistols and again, for testing used berserker.