18 replies to this topic

[Captain Bulldozer]

Let's face it, there's still a lot about the Dwarves we don't know or understand.  From what lore I've been able to piece together (and I fully expect Konig to come along and fill in some or all of the missing pieces ) the dwarves faught the dragons (or some of them) the last time they were awake.  

When the great destroyer awoke in GW:EN, the dwarves responded by undergoing the rite of the great dwarf, which turns them to stone in order to better fight the minions of Primordus (and perhaps also as a measure of protection against the corruption of other dragons?).  It seems reasonable, then, to think the Dwarves had done the same thing previously when Primordus was awake.  

If that is the case, there must have been a way for non-stone dwarves to reappear on the surface of Tyria (whether the rite can be undone or through some other means... like creating a new generation of dwarves as the great dwarf apparently did atop of Anvil Rock).

So, my thinking is that, perhaps after the eventual defeat of Primordus (assuming that will ever take place), we should expect to eventually see Dwarves return to the surface of Tyria.  Any thoughts or comments which either support or conflict with this?  If the dwarves do indeed return, would you like to see them as a playable race?  How would the re-appearance of the Dwarven society affect the other races?  Discuss.

[Yski]

Having a way to undo the rite sounds like the sensible thing to do. I mean, I would understand most of them taking the rite if it wasn't reverseable, but all of them? Then again, it is more or less the only original thing about the guild wars dwarves, so who knows.

I don't think I'd like to see them as playable as there are several more interesting races to choose from, but they would be interesting npcs.

Edited by Yski, 22 January 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[BuddhaKeks]

The rite of the Great Dwarf is their ultima ratio. They do it only if it's their very last option. During the last cycle of the Elder Dragons, the Dwarves fought the EDs yes, but they also had 4 equally, of not more, powerful races as allies (well 3 since the Mursaat/Seer war was possible before the dragons awakened, so the Seer civilization might have been gone by that time). However the Mursaat chose to run away rather than fight the dragons, leaving the other races alone. I'm pretty sure at this point the dwarves came up with the rite, they might even prepared it, but they didn't perform it.
The Forgotten had found a way to cleanse the dragon corruption and they freed Glint. Glint became an ally of the last races and hid them from the EDs. I'm pretty sure that's the reason why the Brotherhood borderline worships Glint. So no, the rite was never performed before, since Glint came and saved the races in time.
However thousands years later, the other old races are gone, only the dwarves remained and even they were in decline. I think they saw that their time had come, so they performed the rite while still enough dwarves were alive to make up a sizeable army.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

The Great Dwarf did battle with the Great Destroyer, and I'm not sure if we know whether it had the ability to take on an Elder Dragon. Implicitly, it is suggested that the process isn't reversible (other than the biological difficulties in stone generating offspring, it is suggestive that the rite also gave the dorfs immunity to the ED's corrupting influence). For them to revert back to "fleshy" forms would imply that they'd lose whatever advantage generated as well.

All of what you said makes sense, but I think from a storytelling perspective it is better to leave the dwarves as they are. Jalis Ironhammer wouldn't have invoked the rite of the Great Dorf if there was another option. I believe it is stated somewhere that eventually, all of the dwarves went through the rite. Thematically, it's appropriate as a transition from guild wars 1 to 2 - allowing the "newer" races like the sylvari to take center stage. It was meant, I think, to be tragic in a way not unlike the passing of the elves in Tolkien's work. To suddenly reverse the process and go "hai guyz we r back" is a bit like, I dunno, suddenly having the Margonites (now 100% good and firmly on the side of Kormir) pop out from Hammerspace and come save the day.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 22 January 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[BuddhaKeks]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 22 January 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

The Great Dwarf did battle with the Great Destroyer, and I'm not sure if we know whether it had the ability to take on an Elder Dragon. Implicitly, it is suggested that the process isn't reversible (other than the biological difficulties in stone generating offspring, it is suggestive that the rite also gave the dorfs immunity to the ED's corrupting influence). For them to revert back to "fleshy" forms would imply that they'd lose whatever advantage generated as well.

Not quite correct. The Great Dwarf is no entity. Saying the Great Dwarf battled the Great Destroyer is actually a metaphor for the Dwarves batteling him, as the Great Dwarf is more like a collective consciousness.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

I'm aware of Jeff Grubb's interview. But on some levels I think an argument can be made that the dwarves likely believe that there may have been some kind of great dwarf. Take the hammer of the great dwarf, for instance. That is both a powerful spell of some sort, as well as a physical weapon that can be seen in the Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Dialogue from bearded leeroy in one of the Sorrow's Furnace quests (High Priest Alkar) clearly speaks of the Great Dwarf as a being.

I personally see no contradiction between what's been told by Grubbs & what's been revealed by the dwarves, by the way. What matters is the great dwarf exists.

Now, of course, we know that Alkar isn't the most reliable of narrators, since the wold didn't end when the name of the Great Destroyer was spoken. But you'll notice that, insofar as GW1 goes, it was never really clear what the dwarves knew much about their own legends or about what they were fighting until maybe GW:EN.

I personally attribute that to the writing team likely not having in mind Primordius at the time of the initial conception of the Tome of the Rubicon & the Great Dwarf.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 22 January 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Captain Bulldozer, on 22 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I fully expect Konig to come along and fill in some or all of the missing pieces

Can I pass that torch to someone else?

Thalador knows just as much about lore than me. He should post more often. Drax too.

Captain Bulldozer, on 22 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

It seems reasonable, then, to think the Dwarves had done the same thing previously when Primordus was awake.

There's two possibilities other than this: that they were originally stone and became flesh after. Or that the ritual was developed after the Elder Dragons went to sleep.

Captain Bulldozer, on 22 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

So, my thinking is that, perhaps after the eventual defeat of Primordus (assuming that will ever take place), we should expect to eventually see Dwarves return to the surface of Tyria.  Any thoughts or comments which either support or conflict with this?  If the dwarves do indeed return, would you like to see them as a playable race?  How would the re-appearance of the Dwarven society affect the other races?  Discuss.

Well, the dwarves are said to be mostly gone by now - some remain still, but their numbers have been only dwindling since Eye of the North.

By the time we get to Primordus, I suspect it will be because he had taken out almost all of the dwarves keeping his forces at bay - especially given that there's Mount Maelstrom and six other places (minimum) that Primordus' forces had sprouted out.

And no, I don't want to see them as a playable race. People only want them for the familiarity. And I like GW2's lack of familiarity - if Anet does things right, it has the chance of breaking the mold of "all fantasy is based off of Tolkien/D&D" - which is nothing but a good thing.

Yski, on 22 January 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I mean, I would understand most of them taking the rite if it wasn't reverseable, but all of them?

They were magically compelled to take the rite. They didn't have much choice - some could resist it, but not forever.

And even then, maybe there is a means to reverse it - or rather, was. Maybe it was reversed before, and their stone form is their original form, and the fleshy one was a one-time deal to give them life after the Elder Dragons went to sleep?

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 22 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Now, of course, we know that Alkar isn't the most reliable of narrators, since the wold didn't end when the name of the Great Destroyer was spoken.

Ah, but *was* it ever spoken to begin with? I, for one, never heard such a name given to the beast other than "the Great Destroyer."

[draxynnic]

Perhaps more significantly, the impression is I get the feeling that in Sorrow's Furnace, the dwarves didn't know the full details. The rise of the dragons certainly signified the end of the old balances of power, the end of the dwarves, and even with Zhaitan's defeat, the jury is still out on whether the world will survive the dragons. (Okay, metathinking it we know that most likely we as players will drive back the darkness, but the dwarves didn't know that.) Any of these could be what was meant by the end of the world.

Regarding the Great Dwarf - the impression I've always had is that the Great Dwarf is kinda the spirit of Dwarf like the norn animal spirits. After the Rite, the Great Dwarf is manifesting through the dwarven race as a whole, but that doesn't bar the possibility that in previous ages the Great Dwarf manifested independantly.

When it comes to the dwarves coming back - my gut feeling is that it's possible that the Rite has a counter-Rite, but two things are preventing it from happening:

1) The dwarves don't have access to what they'd need to perform the counter-Rite.

2) Even if they did, their numbers are now so thin that they wouldn't have a viable population anyway.

[Sword Hammer Axe]

As I understand it they've made the rite of the Great Dwarf before, yet somehow returned to their old form, so them reappearing wouldn't be entirely unthinkable. However, I believe this is at least hundreds of years in the future, so you shouldn't expect to see them in game.

Regarding the above mentioned: We know they had access to the rite itself, so why they shouldn't have access to the counter-rite is simply something you can deduce from Ogden saying "once you go rock, you cannot stop" or something like that. This, however, could easily just be the lack of knowledge of a single Dwarf, a bleak view of the future, or just something regarding his own generation, or something else. Seeing as they seem to have had a pretty well-preserved understanding of the Elder Dragons and their old anciennity, I'd be surprised if they lost something as important as the counter-rite. Of course, it could be argued that there is in fact no counter-rite, and that they simply returned to their former selves by seeking help from outsiders or that not every Dwarf underwent the rite in the first place. Still...

I don't think that repopulation is an issue. We have no idea how Dwarves reproduce, nor have we ever seen any female Dwarf. Besides, a lot of things suggest that there are still Dwarves holding back the Destroyers underneath Tyria. Few, yes, but exactly how many we do not know.

[Mr_Finesse]

Moar Dwarven NPCs (not as as a playable race).  

I see them playing a role as the group/race that guides the players through at least part of the story much how The Forgotten did in GW1.

[Sirius]

I have to think there's a good chance we'll be seeing more of them once we turn our attention to Primordus. Not as a playable race, of course, but it does seem the battle yet rages down there, so the dwarves are obvious ones to team up with.

[draxynnic]

How do you know we haven't seen a female Dwarf? Consider the Discworld dwarves, for instance...

As for losing access to the counter-rite - during EOTN they'd only just relearned about the Great Destroyer and it seems they didn't recall enough about the Elder Dragons then to actually warn anyone, so it's plausible that their knowledge in that matter was less complete than a thorough scouring of their legends would have provided. They'd also lost access to an important part of the original Rite - they knew of it, but you needed to go and recover the Hammer of the Great Dwarf in order for it to be performed. So it's possible that the dwarves knew of the counter-rite but some important artifact for performing it was out of their reach - possibly even in Arah - and given the direness of the situation, they figured it was a case of 'extinct if we do, extinct if we don't, might as well go down fighting'.

[ironbound stoker]

forgive me for this but as its from the the movement of the world section it is worth a reference  "As of the present, no dwarf of flesh and blood remains." as for Ogden"once you go rock, you cant stop" it is probely the quote "once you go black you never go back"

Edited by ironbound stoker, 13 February 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Reason on Cooldown]

draxynnic, on 24 January 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

How do you know we haven't seen a female Dwarf? Consider the Discworld dwarves, for instance...

5,000 Karma points for referencing Discworld.

[Ottoman]

If they ever become playable - my Norn engi will defo go Dwarf!

[Wowzers]

When it comes to female dwarfs, we have to go with the authority.

My own personal question though is... what about the Stone Summit dwarves?  Were they transformed also?
Will we find in Deldrimor Front villages with stone dwarves fighting each other?   Or, maybe Priory scholars smugly telling us that the rubble we are looking at isn't just the remains of the buildings...  yikes!

[draxynnic]

We've been told that the Stone Summit were also transformed, although they resisted.

I don't think we've been told what they did after transforming, though. The Ritual changes its subjects in mind as well as body, though, so it's possible that the Ritual overrode their dissent and now they're just dwarves.

[Konig Des Todes]

If you go to the Granite Citadel in Dredgehaunt Cliffs, you learn that the Stone Summit and Deldrimor rejoined into a single nation sometime after Eye of the North and before the last of the dwarves underwent the rite - which occurred within fifty years according to Ogden. You can find some graves of not just Deldrimor dwarves, but also Stone Summit dwarves and even some human GW1 NPCs in the Granite Citadel area too.

[Doctor Overlord]

Spoiler

Ogden's still around right?   Maybe there is a way to bring back the dwarves.  Or maybe he was just included to provide a way to explain the lore to new players.  

draxynnic, on 23 January 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Perhaps more significantly, the impression is I get the feeling that in Sorrow's Furnace, the dwarves didn't know the full details. The rise of the dragons certainly signified the end of the old balances of power, the end of the dwarves, and even with Zhaitan's defeat, the jury is still out on whether the world will survive the dragons. (Okay, metathinking it we know that most likely we as players will drive back the darkness, but the dwarves didn't know that.) Any of these could be what was meant by the end of the world.

That comment had this thought suddenly occur to me.
Escape from Tyria: The last Guild Wars 2 expansion when they announce Guild Wars 3.   We find the massive cyrogenic spaceships that originally brought humans to Tyria and start sending people off in them when we find out there is no stopping Tyria from being destroyed.

Guild Wars 3:  The New World.  

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 14 February 2013 - 11:03 PM.