36 replies to this topic

[Andemius]

Okay here's the idea. Make the Jumping Puzzle in The Eternal Battlegrounds a non-hostile area. Simple as that. I've tried to think a way round it for anyone who would like to duel each other there or somesuch, but nothing works in favor of people who are non-agressive and not camping there.

Even in the dead hours this week and the last there's been 20 or so Invaders sitting on top of the bridge and overlooking the pit, waiting for the occasional one player to come along and gank. This is not the most efficient way of racking up kills (if you want monthly), nor is it rewarding when there's 20 or so of you there waiting to jump 1 player every 15mins.

Thoughts? Feel free to call me an idiot, but please back it up with proof.

[Briar]

They are not sitting up there waiting to gank you. They are sitting up there protecting other members of the server from being ganked by you.

Of course they are going to jump down and kill you sometimes, it's boring to just sit up there

The truth is that the puzzle is to be done as part of a group effort; if you remember this it will feel more balanced. Round up a group of friends and then control the top yourself.


The borderland puzzles are more designed for what you are looking for I.E jumping for a single person

[Coooturtle]

The EB puzzle was built for people to gank. Its everywhere in the design. It's also a fun PvP spot, with a great reward at the end. If there are people camping you, then your server is probably doing bad in WvW, help out the battle, then do the JP.

[Andemius]

I can see that it is built in favor of people sitting around and trying to get you with traps, that I can deal with. But if I somehow make it past the countless *es sitting around waiting for one person to get out of the pit, just to be ganked by 20 or so people it gets wearing.

One person is not a threat. Personally, I just want a few tokens to get one of my characters some basic exotics, I can see others wanting the same, or doing it for their legendaries. I'm not gonna turn them in for siege which I won't use. I imagine more than half the people coming to the JP are doing the same.

People camping there with the express intention of killing lone targets as they work their way up is just spoiling the people who aren't fighting in there's enjoyment.

[Andemius]

Quote

They are not sitting up there waiting to gank you. They are sitting up there protecting other members of the server from being ganked by you.

One person is not a threat to however many are camping the pit/bridge/well. That one person just wants to get their reward and get back to whatever they like doing. If a group of 10 or so invaders are coming to kill you all, and for some reason you think that holding the JP is a tactical advantage, go ahead, fight them. One person does not need that.

Quote

The EB puzzle was built for people to gank. Its everywhere in the design. It's also a fun PvP spot, with a great reward at the end. If there are people camping you, then your server is probably doing bad in WvW, help out the battle, then do the JP.

So it seems. Imo, it's a horrible mistake. The skill should be in managing the jumps, not trying to sneak past the people camping. It's not PvP, it's Groups v Single targets. Make it non-hostile, and those people will either leave WvW and others can enter, go to WvW proper and help their server, or go to sPvP.

As for whether we're doing bad, we're currently a small margin over 3rd place, and a large one behind 1st. The irony being it's the 1st placers who I see camping the most this round.

Edited by Andemius, 24 January 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Arewn]

Why not just use the stealth fountains if you don't want to fight....
Its not 100% guarantee free pass through the puzzle, but if you're there to farm tokens you should be at a point where you can fairly reliably do the puzzle all stealthed.

[whodini]

All I can say. toast with cheese and wine. Don't mean to be cruel but when in wvw that happens. Do it when your server has that areas protected.  Just like all the mapping

[TheBandicoot]

Arewn, on 24 January 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Why not just use the stealth fountains if you don't want to fight....
Its not 100% guarantee free pass through the puzzle, but if you're there to farm tokens you should be at a point where you can fairly reliably do the puzzle all stealthed.

Yeah. This said it all. Seriously. Except for a very little almost uninteresting little fact: There are no stealth fountains right after the darkroom. You HAVE to pass the arena to get to the third possible stealth fountain, and you cannot manage to get through there if there is a small enemy zerg camping the arena. I´ve already seen whole zergs camping with loads of arrow carts, ballistas, catapults, trebuchets and even a ram (pointless one, but it was there anyway). In that scenario - providing ideal circumstances, thus requiring the enemy not to spam the exit of the darkroom with AoE´s - only a few possibilities enable one person to get through. One is being a thief. With the right loadout, you can almost maintain stealth and break through the blockade. Another is requiring insane teamwork which you just dont get on some servers. Theoretically its possible to have a chain of mesmer portals forwarding another char, preferably a mesmer, in no time to the darkroom and through while still being cloaked by the stealth fountain.
All other scenarios require the camping enemy to be really stupid or AFK. And no, you cannot manage the darkroom stealthed by a fountain on your own except you have that glowing book of the Mad King providing you a samll glowing shine. Or you are incredibly good at jumping in total darkness. Being stealthed by a fountain means removal of weapons, traits and the like as well as being unable to interact with anything, for example the torches at the entrance of the darkroom.

Long story short: I dont want the puzzle to become a non hostile area. But ArenaNet should consider making the torches usable in stealth, thus enabling good jumpers to pass the darkroom AND the arena in stealth as well as requiring camping people to at least spam the exit with AoEs to decloak hidden people instead of just waiting half-AFK. This way both sides are happy, providing a possibility to jumpers to remain unseen and still allowing camping in the area.

[Andemius]

Arewn, on 24 January 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Why not just use the stealth fountains if you don't want to fight....
Its not 100% guarantee free pass through the puzzle, but if you're there to farm tokens you should be at a point where you can fairly reliably do the puzzle all stealthed.

As a thief, I can reliably make it to the end of the dark room without being ganked, unless it happens just outside the stealth fountain. After that then what? The pit is possibly the most popular place to camp. With the most stealth I can fit on my bar, and a shadowstep, I can *just* make it to the exit of the pit, before it wears off. This is very optimal ofc, every jump needs to be perfect and obv, fast. If there was a fountain at the end of the dark room, fine. There is not.

[Takato]

I don't understand, without the stealth, and anyone to gank you... It takes roughly 3-4 minutes to do the whole puzzle. This is over estimating as well.

I just don't understand why it would take longer for anyone to do this.
Hell, just grab the fountain before the dark room, take a min to get to the dark room and use a consumable that grants an aoe skill to use as guidance in the dark room or an item that emmits light, I've been using some effigy flame I bought near the cof entrance and you can use that to light your way even if you're invisible.
This alone makes crossing the dark room stupid fast, you have ample time to get up the arena into the last fountain.

And fountain invisibility lasts 5min, a little effort goes a long way.

Edited by Takato, 25 January 2013 - 01:53 AM.

[OctavianCMB]

I understand that you're frustrated. But you're in WvW, a PvP area. One of the reasons, I imagine, that the reward is so high is that the server has to devote resources in order to claim the prize. Guilds can make it a goal to control the puzzle and reward their members with free trips to the chest. Guilds on rival servers can oppose them. Remove the risk and then there's little reason for the reward.

If you are there for the occasional exotic, then there are entirely PvE means to obtain those.

[Loperdos]

OctavianCMB, on 25 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

I understand that you're frustrated. But you're in WvW, a PvP area. One of the reasons, I imagine, that the reward is so high is that the server has to devote resources in order to claim the prize. Guilds can make it a goal to control the puzzle and reward their members with free trips to the chest. Guilds on rival servers can oppose them. Remove the risk and then there's little reason for the reward.

If you are there for the occasional exotic, then there are entirely PvE means to obtain those.

^^ This.

I would be perfectly alright with them making the JP a non-hostile area, but ONLY if they they removed the Badges of Honor reward from the end of it.  How much sense does it make to reward someone a WvW exclusive reward for completing something with its only connection to WvW being that it just happens to be found in the WvW area?  Without that risk of getting ganked (just like there is in the rest of WvW) there should not be that reward at the end.  I don't think a person can have it both ways.

That being said, it is extremely frustrating to be trying to run through the JP only to run into a group of 5 well-equipped and well-organized enemy guildies camp and gank you just as you are heading down the stairs into the dark room...had that happen quite a few times, but when all is said and done, that's part of WvW; if you are willing to run the risk, then the reward is pretty decent.

[Lucav]

TheBandicoot, on 25 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Yeah. This said it all. Seriously. Except for a very little almost uninteresting little fact: There are no stealth fountains right after the darkroom. You HAVE to pass the arena to get to the third possible stealth fountain, and you cannot manage to get through there if there is a small enemy zerg camping the arena. I´ve already seen whole zergs camping with loads of arrow carts, ballistas, catapults, trebuchets and even a ram (pointless one, but it was there anyway). In that scenario - providing ideal circumstances, thus requiring the enemy not to spam the exit of the darkroom with AoE´s - only a few possibilities enable one person to get through. One is being a thief. With the right loadout, you can almost maintain stealth and break through the blockade. Another is requiring insane teamwork which you just dont get on some servers. Theoretically its possible to have a chain of mesmer portals forwarding another char, preferably a mesmer, in no time to the darkroom and through while still being cloaked by the stealth fountain.
All other scenarios require the camping enemy to be really stupid or AFK. And no, you cannot manage the darkroom stealthed by a fountain on your own except you have that glowing book of the Mad King providing you a samll glowing shine. Or you are incredibly good at jumping in total darkness. Being stealthed by a fountain means removal of weapons, traits and the like as well as being unable to interact with anything, for example the torches at the entrance of the darkroom.

Long story short: I dont want the puzzle to become a non hostile area. But ArenaNet should consider making the torches usable in stealth, thus enabling good jumpers to pass the darkroom AND the arena in stealth as well as requiring camping people to at least spam the exit with AoEs to decloak hidden people instead of just waiting half-AFK. This way both sides are happy, providing a possibility to jumpers to remain unseen and still allowing camping in the area.

I agree with this, it seems like an oversight to be able to do everything except the dark room invis, then not have a well before the arena. It doesnt help that some of the jumps in the arena appear to be near impossible while in combat, which gives the campers a massive advantage, to the point where there is very little chance even a large zerg will make it up.

[Azure Skye]

OctavianCMB, on 25 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

I understand that you're frustrated. But you're in WvW, a PvP area. One of the reasons, I imagine, that the reward is so high is that the server has to devote resources in order to claim the prize. Guilds can make it a goal to control the puzzle and reward their members with free trips to the chest. Guilds on rival servers can oppose them. Remove the risk and then there's little reason for the reward.

If you are there for the occasional exotic, then there are entirely PvE means to obtain those.

Those badges mean something to get the Gift of battle not Gift of Jump Puzzles. You need to kill someone to get it or not try to get killed in the WvW jump puzzle. I use all of my badges on siege weapons like crazy, I know how to get them them. I agree with your post.

[Arewn]

TheBandicoot, on 25 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

-snip-

Andemius, on 25 January 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

As a thief, I can reliably make it to the end of the dark room without being ganked, unless it happens just outside the stealth fountain. After that then what? The pit is possibly the most popular place to camp. With the most stealth I can fit on my bar, and a shadowstep, I can *just* make it to the exit of the pit, before it wears off. This is very optimal ofc, every jump needs to be perfect and obv, fast. If there was a fountain at the end of the dark room, fine. There is not.

Yea... except this:
I've done it too... without the back piece night-light.

[Mockingjay74]

I've maintained virtually the same opinion on this since the early days of eight-hour queues on cramped servers. WvW's jumping puzzles should not be the highlight or focus of the WvW maps. They should be something to do, as someone pointed out earlier, when nothing else is happening of major importance. If you're doing jumping puzzles and keep getting ganked, bring a group of people to fight back, or just do the JP on another map/another time.

[Andemius]

Nice idea in the video, but hardly optimal. The time for getting Mad Memories has come and gone (until possibly next year idk), and to the best of my knowledge there is not another non-weapon item which emits light. Impressive that you managed to do the entire thing without any light while stealthed, but I doubt many people are able to achive that.

A fountain after the dark room would for the most part, solve the issue.

Mockingjay74, on 25 January 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

I've maintained virtually the same opinion on this since the early days of eight-hour queues on cramped servers. WvW's jumping puzzles should not be the highlight or focus of the WvW maps. They should be something to do, as someone pointed out earlier, when nothing else is happening of major importance. If you're doing jumping puzzles and keep getting ganked, bring a group of people to fight back, or just do the JP on another map/another time.

I'm sure no commander appreciates people hanging around in the JP rather than helping out, but I (as I'm sure others do) go in, grab the reward, and then either leave WvW so someone else can enter, or go and help out. The queue on my server is rarely over 30mins for EB.

Edited by Andemius, 25 January 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[AlixIcebane]

They should just remove the jp altogether, we dont need pve in pvp

[raspberry jam]

Andemius, on 24 January 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Thoughts? Feel free to call me an idiot, but please back it up with proof.

You're an idiot. It's a PvP area, why should it be non-hostile? There are plenty of non-hostile 3D platformers in the PvE world.

[Briar]

Andemius, on 25 January 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Nice idea in the video, but hardly optimal. The time for getting Mad Memories has come and gone (until possibly next year idk), and to the best of my knowledge there is not another non-weapon item which emits light. Impressive that you managed to do the entire thing without any light while stealthed, but I doubt many people are able to achive that.

Use a siege equipment box then hit the "deploy" 1 skill.

Now use the AoE targeting circle to outline the edges of the floor. No mad king book needed

[Andemius]

Briar, on 25 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Use a siege equipment box then hit the "deploy" 1 skill.

Now use the AoE targeting circle to outline the edges of the floor. No mad king book needed

Sounds like a nice workaround, but would that not de-stealth you?

raspberry jam, on 25 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You're an idiot. It's a PvP area, why should it be non-hostile? There are plenty of non-hostile 3D platformers in the PvE world.

Because people just sit there waiting to gank single players, it's a jumping puzzle, and holding it offers a tiny (if at all) advantage to your server. If I wanted to fight people over nothing I'd go to sPvP and fight off-point.

[Briar]

Andemius, on 25 January 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Sounds like a nice workaround, but would that not de-stealth you?

Actually deploying the siege will de-stealth you. Holding the siege in your hands and using the targeting circle does not.

I can attest to this as I have done it

[Chabby]

TheBandicoot, on 25 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

-snip-

Actually, there is a way. There are some debris bellow a platform in the arena you can climb on, and if you have a target teleport you can warp yourself up on the platform above. Doing so will put you directly at the end of the Arena part. So, increase your toughness and swiftness with skills and you can pretty much make it to the end.

The hard part remains to avoid being killed at the top by the campers. But I guess you can disturb them and damage their things enough to allow some progress for further run.

Edited by Chabby, 25 January 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Andemius]

Briar, on 25 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Actually deploying the siege will de-stealth you. Holding the siege in your hands and using the targeting circle does not.

I can attest to this as I have done it

Just tried it, not really a viable option. I know the JP pretty darn well, and I had horrific problems seeing where I was going.

Also had to be noted that the shortcut jump on the first beam in the dark room cannot be done w/o some kind of ims.

[Captain Bulldozer]

I'm guessing it would be a very difficult bit of coding to make all players "friendly" in a select area inside a PvP environment.  Also, I think PvP jumping puzzles can offer some pretty fun game play.  However, I do wish that they would make the jumping puzzle have more to do with the actual WvW goings on.  At present, any group camping (or defending if you prefer) a jumping puzzle is a waste of resources for the server.  Those are people who should be helping to hold or take an objective, but instead choose to follow a 13 year old kid's mentality: ganking.  Now, if jumping puzzles were also part of taking/holding a main objective for the server (i.e. there's a tower you get points for controlling that also involves a jumping puzzle) that would be really cool in my view.

[Gilles VI]

If you are not interested in PvP, why are you doing the JP then?
And if you say legendary weapon, well tobad, nobody is forcing you to work for that, and if you want one you'll have to live with it being partly gained in PvP..

[matsif]

Gilles VI, on 25 January 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

If you are not interested in PvP, why are you doing the JP then?
And if you say legendary weapon, well tobad, nobody is forcing you to work for that, and if you want one you'll have to live with it being partly gained in PvP..

this entirely.  also know that hardcore WvW players need the badges and blueprints as well (arguably more so), and holding the JP keeps enemies away from getting these during the week.  I personally don't participate in camping the JP, but I understand completely why it is done from a strictly WvW standpoint as giving the enemy free blueprints can swing a fight for the next few hours if enough people make it through.

[HawkofStorms]

You know, the JP is really an oddity.

It's literally a place for people to gank, in a game that was specifically designed to prevent playing griefing and avoid that type of behavior.  I don't think it would work or make sense if it was non-hostile.  But I don't really think it fits in with the rest of the design of GW2 as it is.

[InfestedHydralisk]

The Obsidian Sanctum is a hostile JP by design.
There are even traps that can be triggered by players to prevent others from completing it.

Personally I find it quite an interesting twist to a JP.

[Lordkrall]

I for one would suggest that anyone that spent more than 20 minutes in the puzzle would be auto-defeated and kicked out of the map with a CD of 2 hours.