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Toughness/Regen based rangers. Counters?


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#1 Tessa Avery

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:15 AM

I am primarily a thief and play spvp not WvW

Lately there are ranger builds going around that focus heavily on stacking toughness and regen from certain runes/signets/traits etc. Most if not all of those rangers use a melee weapon usually sword and the offhand varies (i have found that the war horn is popular for the crazy burn dmg). Other than intense durability they either go into trapping or pet damage.

I have little to no trouble with other classes besides the mesmer (which doesn't bother me as much anymore) but these rangers which are becoming more and more common are nearly impossible for me to kill and I do very good burst dmg. Most of the time I end up dying by conditions and getting interupted by the canine pets.

I simply am unable to maintain the dmg onto the player while still remaining alive myself. Its either A. I go hard in the paint trying to deal as much damage as I can and watch as my health plummets or B. I take it slow using stealth and getting as many backstabs in as well which usually ends up being an EXTREMELY long engagement that usually still ends up with me running away or a corpse on the ground.

I don't want to go into the specifics in my build but here are the basics

I am 30 critical strikes/30/ shadow arts/10 acrobatics

Hide in Shadows heal, Shadow Step, Blinding Powder, Shadows Refuge, and I use either Thieves Guild or Dagger Storm.

Berserkers amulet, Divinity Runes

Dagger/Pistol - Shortbow

If anyone else is having trouble with these rangers (I know you are out there fellow thieves) please reply and share some insight to what you have found to be successful if anything at all.

Peace and Love

#2 lmaonade

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

Conditions/Poison

so a poison user P/D build works nicely

#3 lollasaurus

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:41 AM

Run a bleed/stealth D/D build.  Rangers have poor condition removal overall

Edited by NotKMoose, 24 January 2013 - 06:42 AM.


#4 Smileforever

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostNotKMoose, on 24 January 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Run a bleed/stealth D/D build.  Rangers have poor condition removal overall

very false,
the pet takes all condis every 10 seconds + healspring on demand. One of the best condi removes in the game. Rangers are a very good 1on1 class, and tanks are there to not be bursted down by some thiefs. My Tip: dont bother with 1v1ing, go with a friend, e.g. a mesmer and just combo him when the mesmer does his immobilize+shatter, he'll instantly because these speccs have low healthpools. To be 100% sure he dies, hide somewhere, dodging is his only option.

#5 lollasaurus

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

Im pretty sure its one condition every 10 second and if you really have to have a thief and mesmer team up on a ranger to win; your doing it wrong.

#6 lmaonade

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostNotKMoose, on 24 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Im pretty sure its one condition every 10 second and if you really have to have a thief and mesmer team up on a ranger to win; your doing it wrong.

it's all conditions to my knowledge (haven't played my ranger in a while so can't confirm it)

anyways, to beat one of the better duelist builds in the game (sword ranger) you need to roll a thief build that can duel properly, P/D poison users are made for just that, 1 vs 1 experts that whittle the enemy down slowly while being extremely sustainable due to perks such as hp regeneration in stealth, decent amount of conditions, and if you can hit your cloak and dagger and dodge well enough you'll definitely win.

#7 Tessa Avery

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:26 PM

View PostSmileforever, on 24 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

very false,
the pet takes all condis every 10 seconds + healspring on demand. One of the best condi removes in the game. Rangers are a very good 1on1 class, and tanks are there to not be bursted down by some thiefs. My Tip: dont bother with 1v1ing, go with a friend, e.g. a mesmer and just combo him when the mesmer does his immobilize+shatter, he'll instantly because these speccs have low healthpools. To be 100% sure he dies, hide somewhere, dodging is his only option.

I have no problem killing one if there are other players around its when its 1v1 where i find them to be near invincible.

#8 Tessa Avery

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 24 January 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

it's all conditions to my knowledge (haven't played my ranger in a while so can't confirm it)

anyways, to beat one of the better duelist builds in the game (sword ranger) you need to roll a thief build that can duel properly, P/D poison users are made for just that, 1 vs 1 experts that whittle the enemy down slowly while being extremely sustainable due to perks such as hp regeneration in stealth, decent amount of conditions, and if you can hit your cloak and dagger and dodge well enough you'll definitely win.

I was actually running D/P as my primary and P/D as my secondary for a while, I now use D/P and shortbow just because I find it to be superior in most situations. I do however keep a dagger and pistol in my inventory just in case i need it. I have beaten a few toughness rangers with the P/D however I plainly don't like not having a shortbow mostly for mobility. Toughness Major/Trapper Minor rangers I find to be a bit easier now unless they spam traps. I basically watch for them to drop traps and most ppl plant in the same spot, then I will shadow step to spring traps and go back to remove conditions then proceed to engage the ranger. My biggest problem at the moment are the rangers go into beast mastery, the birds can hit me anywhere from 3000-6000 damage and I am by no means a glass cannon.
What I am looking for is maybe someone who has a ranger and uses them regularly to share some knowledge about their strengths and weaknesses with special regard to the toughness build, what its generally comprised of and such.

View Postlmaonade, on 24 January 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Conditions/Poison

so a poison user P/D build works nicely

What skills do you suggest to apply poison?

#9 lmaonade

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:15 AM

View PostTessa Avery, on 24 January 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I was actually running D/P as my primary and P/D as my secondary for a while, I now use D/P and shortbow just because I find it to be superior in most situations. I do however keep a dagger and pistol in my inventory just in case i need it. I have beaten a few toughness rangers with the P/D however I plainly don't like not having a shortbow mostly for mobility. Toughness Major/Trapper Minor rangers I find to be a bit easier now unless they spam traps. I basically watch for them to drop traps and most ppl plant in the same spot, then I will shadow step to spring traps and go back to remove conditions then proceed to engage the ranger. My biggest problem at the moment are the rangers go into beast mastery, the birds can hit me anywhere from 3000-6000 damage and I am by no means a glass cannon.
What I am looking for is maybe someone who has a ranger and uses them regularly to share some knowledge about their strengths and weaknesses with special regard to the toughness build, what its generally comprised of and such.



What skills do you suggest to apply poison?

shortbow and D/P is superior in most situations, but for dueling almost nothing beats a P/D if the thief is experienced, I usually use Spider and Devourer Venom with something nice like a shadowstep or Signet of Agility for condition removal.

as for weaknesses of the ranger, I can't really tell you anything beyond the usual since I didn't play mine too extensively, but one that thieves can easily exploit imo is the inability to fight more than 1 person (especially with sword/warhorn, it's all single target), so Thieves Guild plays nicely into that, and gives you 2 free awesome utilities: scorpion wire, and blinding powder. Precast some stealth and a venom, thieves guild and try to surprise em

Edited by lmaonade, 25 January 2013 - 03:16 AM.


#10 greelee

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

View PostTessa Avery, on 24 January 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

I have no problem killing one if there are other players around its when its 1v1 where i find them to be near invincible.

Same here...  I got lucky once - I don't know how. But now I only kill them w/ other players.

#11 Falleiz

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

I don't play thief alot but i would suggest that you run d/d and force them to pop stun control, remember they have a 75 sec cool down of send instantly to pet, once this is done you should burst them down as regen is not instant use alot  of burst.  These are good builds on ranger in 1v1 but in a competitive environment, they do not exist.

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#12 Mekkakat

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

Rangers have the best inherent condition removal in the game. Conditions are the way to go, but you're best off hitting and running in stealth (as stated before). You will not win a ground war with a decent Ranger, and you'll lose even faster to one evade striking you. Stealth up and get busy bleeding them. Pressure pressure pressure.

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#13 JROH

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

The health pool on 95% of rangers running this build is fairly low (for rangers). Usually it's about 16-17k, maybe as high as 18k but you don't see that often either.
As far as regen is concerned, it is really only about 100-130 per second, and on some builds, there is an additional 133 every three seconds. So essentially, rangers have the potential to have a based regen of 523 every 3 seconds which is roughly 175 hp regen per second.
As I main ranger and don't really know thief numbers, I would have to estimate thieves are able to dps around 700 without crits. Mean that your DPS is roughly cut by 1/4 if this is the case.
However, I mentioned the low health because the low health is actually the downfall of the build. The build's weakness isn't conditions, as most people have mentioned, but actual spike damage (as opposed to constant DPS).
Backstab should still be able to do 3-5k, and I would round it to being able to do 25% of an average ranger builds health if it lands.
Healing spring is the next issue. It is important not to let the ranger sit in the spring and stack regen, because lots of these builds can stack regen up to 30s long these days that are healing for about an additional 250hp per second. Use the shortbow to put a poison field down in the healing spring, and if you have it traited, steal and remove the regen if it gets stacked on the ranger.

If it is the trapping variant and you aren't comfortable with close range combat, thieves can really pressure rangers just by shortbow autoattacking them down. Thief shortbow does enough damage to really pressure rangers and either force them to move on you and force them to try to run. You can capitalize on this and catch the ranger when they are out of a favorable position quite often like this for big damage. Traps overall shouldn't be an issue though as long as you don't sit in them. At most they should only put 3 stacks of bleed and 4s of burn on you.Thief sword builds deal with this better because of infiltrators, but as long as you are aware that rangers are only capable of this every 12-15s, you should know that there is now a 12-15s window you don't have to worry about traps going down.

It's mainly just about playing smart and hitting you're spike damage. Heartseeker easily does enough damage that when a ranger is at 2/3 you can outright kill them with a few, and if they dodge, they will be on the extreme defense and you should just keep up the pressure.
Rangers generally bring nothing to the 1v1 fights except for attrition tactics, and if you fight them with the slow and steady damage over time philosophy, it is definitely fighting an uphill battle.

#14 beadnbutter32

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

As a ranger in WvW, I find pistol/pistol - pistol/dagger thieves very annoying if they know how to time their bursts and know enough to stay mobile but within short range it pretty much makes the pet useless.

After tomorrows patch, I doubt you'll have much problem with rangers. (Pet damage 50% nerf, minor long bow buff, meh)

Edited by beadnbutter32, 24 June 2013 - 04:46 PM.





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