60 replies to this topic

[GuanglaiKangyi]

I've heard some silliness going around about how Axe/Mace is supposedly the best DPS weapon.  From what I can tell, it's crap.  The numbers simply don't support it, not by a long shot.  Even assuming generous vulnerability numbers (and vulnerability sucks in general, especially since it's halved on bosses) axe is coming up much lower.  You know what?  Let's just do this:

Berserker Axe/Mace, 30/10/0/10/20: Berserker's Power, Dual Wielding, Axe Mastery, Rending Strikes (assuming 3 stacks of vulnerability), Heightened Focus, Empowered (assuming 3 boons)
Auto: 609, 1300, 2070 per 3.75s = 1061/sec
Cyclone Axe: 568 total, -313 net, -46/sec, ~6 stacks of vuln
Crushing Blow: 812 total, -249 net, -15/sec, ~3.25 stacks of vuln
Eviscerate: 1766 total, 705 net, 64/sec
Total: 1064 overall, 3452/sec

Berserker Greatsword (20/25/0/10/15) - Berserker's Power, Slashing Power, Forceful Greatsword (assuming 10 stacks of might), Heightened Focus, Rending Strikes (assuming 3 stacks of vulnerability), Empowered (assuming 3 boons)
Auto = 597, 597, 768 = 784/s, ~7.5 stacks of vuln
HB = 4690 total, 1554 net, 150/s
Bladetrail = 1280 total, 496 net, 38/s
Rush = 1450 total, 666 net, 39/s
DPS = 1011 base, 4099 overall

So someone explain why people think axe/mace is more?

[lmaonade]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

So someone explain why people think axe/mace is more?

because they feel that it does

and because axe/mace has some nice burst damage

Edited by lmaonade, 24 January 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Pariah]

Axe/Mace has two additional combo finishers over the GS, additional utility in the form of Knockdown from the #5 skill, greater attack animations and the GS is boring and overused (latter parts of my list are a matter of opinion of course)

[chullster]

I run 30/0/0/10/30 with axe mace and dont bother with rending, 8 stacks of vuln. from the start seems good enough and the +10% crit dmg and a tiny 1% extra burst is better I found. The shorter CD for the burst helps too.

No idea if it makes any difference to your figures.

Edited by chullster, 24 January 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Puandro]

GS Build with full Berserker (no ascended gear), Using Bloodlust on GS, 13 stacks of might and perma fury with omnom food for 70 crit and a power potion. Did not take into account Bleeding procs or Vuln procs.

http://i.imgur.com/NXjA1yF.png
4,506 DPS for the people who can't look at the pic.

Edit: Forgot to add Atttack of Opportunity.
4858 DPS with Attack of Opportunity.


Axe/Mace with Full Berserker (no Ascended Gear), Using Bloodlust on Axe and Force on Mace, 3 Stacks of Might and perma fury with omnom food for 70 crit and a power potion.  Did not take into account Bleeding procs or Vuln procs.

http://i.imgur.com/Kw1O2Ba.png
4118 DPS for the people who can't look at the pic.

9.5%~ DPS difference.

GS build relies a lot on HB and Whirlwind. I did the Rotation based in the scenario where mobs weren't against the wall, also i did not use rush as its a ST attack (correct me if im wrong) so this would be AoE on mobs.

Edited by Puandro, 24 January 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Puandro]

BTW swapping to Axe/Mace between GS CD's will result in a DPS Increase.

[chullster]

I've got a feeling a lot of the talk towards Axe/Mace being better might be from a purely in-game experience.

Go on a CoF farm run (or any dungeon), go PuG, ask for 4 DPS wars chances are you'll get some window-lickers running healing shouts or even worse "tanks". As the GS is so popular and the builds posted for it are generally crap, that's what you end up with in your Pug.

Axe/Mace including 2nd weapon set with offhand axe, requires more than spamming 100b/ww to be most effective, chances are someone using it has better reflexes/common sense or whatever. So you get axe/mace DPS warriors in your PuG you have better runs, and get the idea axe/mace must be better.

I've only recently being seeing this trend in the PuGs in the last few days, speed of completion doesn't seem effected though I don't time it or anything.

Puandro, on 24 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

snip

Curious why only 3 stacks of might on the axe and 13 on the GS figures?

I play both GS and axe/mace so I'm not biased

Edited by chullster, 24 January 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[kolaz]

chullster, on 24 January 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I've got a feeling a lot of the talk towards Axe/Mace being better might be from a purely in-game experience.

Go on a CoF farm run (or any dungeon), go PuG, ask for 4 DPS wars chances are you'll get some window-lickers running healing shouts or even worse "tanks". As the GS is so popular and the builds posted for it are generally crap, that's what you end up with in your Pug.

Axe/Mace including 2nd weapon set with offhand axe, requires more than spamming 100b/ww to be most effective, chances are someone using it has better reflexes/common sense or whatever. So you get axe/mace DPS warriors in your PuG you have better runs, and get the idea axe/mace must be better.

I've only recently being seeing this trend in the PuGs in the last few days, speed of completion doesn't seem effected though I don't time it or anything.




Curious why only 3 stacks of might on the axe and 13 on the GS figures?

I play both GS and axe/mace so I'm not biased

Axe harder than GS? Never... Axe reqs jsut spamming autoattack and evi, nothing more. GS? Still not hard, but using Whirlwind can be more troublesome, coz u need to move... And this skill have GREAT dmg, and great burst (better than evi tbh).

I like axe more, but not in terms of dps... for me its almost same as GS... anyway, we are king of dps, so few % there and here won't do any diff. Axe suits me more coz - I can have offhand (shield/warhorn... dunno why people use mace, like block more, or group utility), more attacks = more procs on hit.

[Puandro]

chullster, on 24 January 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Curious why only 3 stacks of might on the axe and 13 on the GS figures?

I play both GS and axe/mace so I'm not biased

FGJ is 3 stacks. I imagine Forceful Greatsword will give GS 10 extra stacks but i have no hard proof on this.

[chullster]

kolaz, on 24 January 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

snip

lol, I never said axe was more DPS than greatsword. I said maybe people think it is due to their in-game experience.

I take mace offhand when using axe for the 4 stacks of vulnerability and tremor. There is no block with offhand mace. I also swap to another axe in the offhand every 5 seconds for skill 5 to refill adrenalin and proc more might from the minor trait.

Edited by chullster, 24 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[flipfly2004]

I use axe/mace,  - /axe over gs because of two tthings:

1 i dont like to be rooted. My gameplay is always on the move.
2 HB doesnt always Hit 100% so i feel GS doesnt have constant dmg specially if Mob is mobile

[dawdler]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

The numbers simply don't support it, not by a long shot.

Numbers arent everything. Havent you ever used a greatsword?

The "issue" compared to the axe isnt numbers, its the behaviour of the skills.

Pretty much everything but the auto-attack (weaker compared to axe) and 100b (at best, on par with axe auto-attack) is about mobility. Place two Warriors with a greatsword and axe/mace against stationary single targets and you'll find that the axe/mace guy will probably win by ALOT when they pop all their skills. Why? Because the greatsword guy will have spun himself far from the target while the axe guy just stands there and pound away.

If the target is mobile, then you have another issue: 100b isnt very effective, even if your other skills help improve your manouvering.

Edited by dawdler, 24 January 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Puandro]

dawdler, on 24 January 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Numbers arent everything. Havent you ever used a greatsword?

The "issue" compared to the axe isnt numbers, its the behaviour of the skills.

Pretty much everything but the auto-attack (weaker compared to axe) and 100b (at best, on par with axe auto-attack) is about mobility. Place two Warriors with a greatsword and axe/mace against stationary single targets and you'll find that the axe/mace guy will probably win by ALOT when they pop all their skills. Why? Because the greatsword guy will have spun himself far from the target while the axe guy just stands there and pound away.

If the target is mobile, then you have another issue: 100b isnt very effective, even if your other skills help improve your manouvering.

This is all false.

[Eleasar]

Have a look in the post by strife:
http://www.guildwars...-dungeon-build/
Here is the video:


[Edit: as pointed out that https://www.youtube....h?v=-L0NdxTZv6E is the old one - the embedded one is the latest one]

He created a youtube video where he did compare the axe/mace to a greatsword in a real environment. Conclusion was that the great sword is in certain circumstances better than the axe mace but only when hundred blades can be done fully and not dodge/moving has to be done. Otherwise they are quite equal in damage output.

Personally i like both. But with axe/mace i can move more freely.

Edited by Eleasar, 25 January 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[Andemius]

Don't have any numbers to support it, but I've swapped from GS to Axe/Mace and I find it considerably better.

I think the main issue is that GS auto attack seems inferior to Axe auto, 100b (which I'd say is the best skill in terms of DPS on GS) roots you in place and has a long cast, and skills 4 and 5 on the GS seem somewhat useless. The GS burst isn't very good either.

Comparatively, Axe/Mace has a decent autoattack, builds adrenaline very fast, has a decent burst skill, and has the additional utility of some KD and Vulnerability from the Mace.

[Eleasar]

And with the live on crit omnomberry food axe/mace heals better due to more attacks (and if you do it with switching to axe/axe offhand you can heal with axe 5 greatly - but this can be done in both setups).

[typographie]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

(and vulnerability sucks in general, especially since it's halved on bosses)

Your numbers show axe 16% behind greatsword, which you found significant enough to justify this thread, but a flat increase in damage up to 25% to a target for your entire party "sucks?" Even at smaller stacks Vulnerability has a greater potential impact on group DPS than the axe vs. greatsword difference you're showing. I realize its not exclusive to either weapon, just that it seems like a contradiction.

Whether axe or greatsword comes out on top seems to depend heavily upon whose data we're looking at. But even if axe is behind in a theoretical stand-n'-burn DPS race, the fact that the greatsword precludes the use of an offhand and relies so heavily on standing still for Hundred Blades puts it at a significant real world disadvantage in harder content where DPS actually matters. At the very least, you have not convinced me axe isn't at least a defensible choice.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Eleasar, on 24 January 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Have a look in the post by strife:
http://www.guildwars...-dungeon-build/
Here is the video:
https://www.youtube....h?v=-L0NdxTZv6E

He created a youtube video where he did compare the axe/mace to a greatsword in a real environment. Conclusion was that the great sword is in certain circumstances better than the axe mace but only when hundred blades can be done fully and not dodge/moving has to be done. Otherwise they are quite equal in damage output.

Personally i like both. But with axe/mace i can move more freely.

That video is the most ridiculous thing to rely on for any DPS comparison because it is wholly based on ONE GUY fighting ONE SPECIFIC MOB with a very specific attack behavior pattern, ONCE.  You can call it a "real environment" or whatever you want but there are lots of different "real environments" out there.

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that the Axe's number in my original post is inflated since I was assuming that you would always be able to instantly recharge adrenaline back to full after using Eviscerate, i.e. no loss for Adrenaline for Berserker's Power or Heightened Focus.  In a "real environment" Axe will actually be even lower, while GS may be higher since you might possibly be snared, immobilized, or have the target against a wall to land massive damage with Whirlwind Attack, which I did not otherwise include in the GS number.

[KrayZ33]

Quote

In a "real environment" Axe will actually be even lower, while GS may be higher since you might possibly be snared, immobilized, or have the target against a wall to land massive damage with Whirlwind Attack, which I did not otherwise include in the GS number.

or lower because you have to cancel / miss HB because the boss moves

also
where is my second sigil, my faster weapon swap for offhand switch ( another extra sigil proc if we assume we are not using a stack-sigil), faster signet recharge etc.

no offense but doing a dps comparision with just that is horrible, didn't Guardian come up on top or nearly equal of Warrior dps with that kind of theorycrafting?

its always going to be a "it feels like doing more/less damage" as long as there are no damagemeters available

are all procs included? did you compare the *amounts* of attacks? did you adjust procs accordingly?
what happens if both HB and Signet come of cooldown, will I delay HB to cast Signet first? what if the boss is going to phase switch / attack right after, will I delay HB further? wont 30/10/0/0/30 yield more dps, or 30/25/0/0/0/15?

Edited by KrayZ33, 24 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Ninja Battle Lion]

I prefer pressure over burst, and being able to stay mobile. Regardless of which weapon has the higher final numbers, none can deny the Axe applies its DPS more evenly and consistently.

Besides that I guess it would be 'unfair' for a 2H DPS weapon to be outclassed by a MH DPS weapon. Damage tradeoff for versatility, or something.

[Puandro]

Ninja Battle Lion, on 24 January 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

I prefer pressure over burst, and being able to stay mobile. Regardless of which weapon has the higher final numbers, none can deny the Axe applies its DPS more evenly and consistently.

Besides that I guess it would be 'unfair' for a 2H DPS weapon to be outclassed by a MH DPS weapon. Damage tradeoff for versatility, or something.

Not really, GS is a mobility weapon.

[Ninja Battle Lion]

And yet it has a 3.5s root.

[KrayZ33]

GS is a mobility weapon because of WW and Rush

you can always cancel HB, you can't consider that a "root"

with Axe its alot easier to dish out damage... and to upkeep that amount, which is why I believe it to be the superior weapon in PUGs...at least for dungeons which are easier to farm. its fast attackspeed is a blessing too. but there is no "extra dodge", damage reduce or leap to gain/reduce distance except for its burst skill maybe.

even I would go with GS in normal dungeon guild runs however where I can depend on my groupmates to keep up (no random boss movements,  everyone rushes to the next objective and tries not to take any damage etc)

but one could really care less about PvE and whats really more useful atm, I can't believe people still play it and arn't fed up with the PvE content yet, meh... thats another topic

Edited by KrayZ33, 24 January 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Puandro]

Ninja Battle Lion, on 24 January 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

And yet it has a 3.5s root.

I guess we can discount D/D eles as the mobility weapon set because it has a 4 second root?

[TastySlop]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

So someone explain why people think axe/mace is more?

- A better axe/mace build is 30/25/0/0/15, adding Attack of Opportunity instead of Empowered.
- Don't use Eviscerate. It is negative DPS due to loss of Berserker's Power and Heightened Focus.
- The axe/mace gets a second sigil of strength/force/accuracy/etc.
- Your numbers have Cyclone Axe taking way too long. It is 0.5s at most.
- Since the GS is using it's auto attack less than half the time, it is only getting about 3.5 stacks of vulnerability from the auto attack.

[Strife025]

Because on paper is much different then actual dungeon runs, where you don't always get uninterrupted 3.5s 100B without either the boss moving or having to dodge an attack.

Also most people say that Axe/Mace is comparable to GS, not better. There are certain situations where GS can be better, like fighting a boss that doesn't move as much or is next to a wall for maximum WW damage.

The thing is, Axe/Mace is sustained damage that is consistent across different events and bosses because all it's damage isn't subjected to attacks that require maximum dps through a full root or ideal WW damage.

It's funny you think the video for dps tests doesn't prove anything, because if anything, fighting a veteran giant who moves slow and has one slow attack is much more favorable to GS then many other events. It is also probably the best mob to measure dps currently since dummies are useless and there is no parser.

The other reason you take Axe/Mace besides playstyle, is because the vulnerability is front loaded for bursting down silver mob groups and also for the interrupt and defiant stack removal which you don't usually get in a speed run comp. of 1 guardian/3 war/1 mesmer if all warriors are running GS.

The other part you fail to realize is that my Axe/Mace build uses Axe offhand on swap with sigil of battle because for probably 95% of dungeons you don't need a ranged weapon in an organized group. This provides seemless switches in combat that don't interrupt auto attacks and give you 5 stacks of adrenaline and 1 stack of might on mace swaps, and 5 stacks + 4 might on axe swaps. You also have more survivability then GS because of Axe 5 combined with omnomberry pies/ghosts gives you a burst heal option of ~3k per mob at level 80 not to mention faster auto attacks.

I have used GS and Axe/Mace extensively, for certain situations GS will offer more dps, but Axe/Mace allows for a more mobile sustained damage with added utility and has a more fluid playstyle that doesn't rely on a 3.5s root, which is why alot of people prefer it for a dps build.

So yes saying Axe/Mace is the best dps weapon is pretty silly, but comparable dps in most dungeon situations isn't false, it's a different dps build with more survivability with omnoms, more front loaded vuln, and with a knockdown for harder silver groups. For certain easy farm dungeons, like CoF1, GS will be better because you literally fight 2 bosses the entire time which don't move and have slow attacks or attacks you don't even need to avoid. But there are many other dungeons and fractals especially where more mobile dps is valuable and especially mace knockdown when you are running an organized group at high levels and use LoS on corners to group mobs then blind/interrupt them to quickly burst them down with melee.

The other big benefit from GS is obviously self might stacking which is really good when you are solo. But my Axe/Mace guide is specifically for the build I run in my guild speed groups which run 1 guard/3 war/1 mes or 2 guard/2 war/1 mes depending on the dungeon. In these instances I hover between 20-25 might stacks where you don't get the same benefit from might stacks on crit with GS since you are near max stacks without it using sigil of battle and the weapon swaps.

Throwing some numbers on paper don't tell the whole story compared to actual dungeon runs, which is the whole reason you actually run stuff and why I test things on the Veteran Giant which is actually a good way to measure dps on a pretty easy/static mob to see the effect of all your traits and conditions in a battle setting.

Also all my dps tests use the 3 best runs in the actual video, not 1 kill, which is really the fastest 3 out of at least 5+ kills that I don't include in the video to account for variances.

Edited by Strife025, 24 January 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[GuanglaiKangyi]

KrayZ33, on 24 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

or lower because you have to cancel / miss HB because the boss moves

also
where is my second sigil, my faster weapon swap for offhand switch ( another extra sigil proc if we assume we are not using a stack-sigil), faster signet recharge etc.

no offense but doing a dps comparision with just that is horrible, didn't Guardian come up on top or nearly equal of Warrior dps with that kind of theorycrafting?

its always going to be a "it feels like doing more/less damage" as long as there are no damagemeters available

are all procs included? did you compare the *amounts* of attacks? did you adjust procs accordingly?
what happens if both HB and Signet come of cooldown, will I delay HB to cast Signet first? what if the boss is going to phase switch / attack right after, will I delay HB further? wont 30/10/0/0/30 yield more dps, or 30/25/0/0/0/15?

1) Second sigil is included.  I am assuming Accuracy because I don't think 2x Force stacks.
2) Yes, Guardian DPS is also very high.  If you don't believe this go roll a guardian.
3) The fact that there are no damage meters is precisely why you need to theorycraft.
4) All procs are included.
5) If you still have Fury up, you use HB, then Signet.  If not, you use Signet first.  It doesn't significantly affect the overall number.
6) 20/25/0/10/15 is the highest DPS for greatsword, as far as I can tell.

TastySlop, on 24 January 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

- A better axe/mace build is 30/25/0/0/15, adding Attack of Opportunity instead of Empowered.
- Don't use Eviscerate. It is negative DPS due to loss of Berserker's Power and Heightened Focus.
- The axe/mace gets a second sigil of strength/force/accuracy/etc.
- Your numbers have Cyclone Axe taking way too long. It is 0.5s at most.
- Since the GS is using it's auto attack less than half the time, it is only getting about 3.5 stacks of vulnerability from the auto attack.

1) From what I can tell they're actually about the same.  I think 30/25/0/0/15 is actually, like, 3 damage lower.
2) Eviscerate does add damage even if you recharge adrenaline using only auto.  It's a much smaller advantage obviously but it is an advantage.  Either way I am already assuming that you have full adrenaline even after using Eviscerate so that number will only go down, if anything.
3) Yes, that is included.
4) Tooltip time =/= actual cast time.  Actual cast time is .83s.
5) It's a bit more than half (HB channels for 4s per 10.4s, so about it takes up about 40% of the time, plus the vuln applies on the first two hits of the chain) and HB makes up the vuln loss from auto with more Rending Strikes procs.  At most it would only be 1-2 stacks less than what I am assuming.  If you want to discount the final number by 1%, go ahead.

Strife025, on 24 January 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

snip

Stability means very little when your damage is that much lower.  We are talking 15-20% lower.  To take an extreme example, a thief in cleric's gear auto-attacking at max range with a shortbow might do more "stable" damage than a warrior in melee with a greatsword, but no one is arguing that the DPS for the thief is better just because it's stable.

Also, I had a look at your video and it is a horribly flawed comparison.  You are dodging randomly even when you're not being attacked.  You're interrupting HB mid-cast to avoid getting hit by stomps, or just getting hit by the stomp and getting knocked down.  You're not even using all the GS skills, i.e. Bladetrail and Rush.  if you're going by that to compare DPS then of course your DPS is going to seem low, you're not even trying to maximize it.

I'm not saying it's not a good effort.  Rather, it's the people who are trying to take it as conclusive evidence of a weapon's DPS that are to blame.  I actually saw a graph or something on Reddit once with little bars for each weapon representing DPS, and axe/mace hilariously had the longest bar, even more then GS.  It was in response to a guy who was complaining about getting kicked from speedfarm parties for using longbow, of all things, which just made it even better.

Edited by GuanglaiKangyi, 24 January 2013 - 11:18 PM.

[Puandro]

Cyclone Axe is 0.6 Cast Time.

[Void_Haunter]

I'm having a hard time even taking OP seriously if they truly cannot see the benefit of axe/mace's utility in different situations.

[Strife025]

GuanglaiKangyi, on 24 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Stability means very little when your damage is that much lower.  We are talking 15-20% lower.  To take an extreme example, a thief in cleric's gear auto-attacking at max range with a shortbow might do more "stable" damage than a warrior in melee with a greatsword, but no one is arguing that the DPS for the thief is better just because it's stable.

Also, I had a look at your video and it is a horribly flawed comparison.  You are dodging randomly even when you're not being attacked.  You're interrupting HB mid-cast to avoid getting hit by stomps, or just getting hit by the stomp and getting knocked down.  You're not even using all the GS skills, i.e. Bladetrail and Rush.  if you're going by that to compare DPS then of course your DPS is going to seem low, you're not even trying to maximize it.

I'm not saying it's not a good effort.  Rather, it's the people who are trying to take it as conclusive evidence of a weapon's DPS that are to blame.  I actually saw a graph or something on Reddit once with little bars for each weapon representing DPS, and axe/mace hilariously had the longest bar, even more then GS.  It was in response to a guy who was complaining about getting kicked from speedfarm parties for using longbow, of all things, which just made it even better.

I had a look at the link the other person posted, and yes you are right regarding that video. He posted an old one which used an inefficient Greatsword cycle, the bad veteran giant spot since I got adds, and my old axe/mace build which isn't as efficient as my current one. My part 2 does a better job at maximizing the GS cycle, and removing variances through adds by using the better Vet Giant spawn which you will see in the times it takes to kill him compared to the first video.

This is the more recent video:


But yes, you are right that the graph with Axe/Mace way higher is ridiculous, the reason I run it is because it works in well with a Guardian/3 war/Mesmer group for front loading vulnerability, your main source of interrupt, and providing on average comparable damage to GS with more utility and without the more rigid rooted playstyle.

You are correct, that on paper GS has the highest potential for maximum dps, assuming ideal 100B cycles and WW placement. But it is not as flexible or consistent across all dungeons and bosses as Axe/Mace and doesn't offer the same utility and survivability that the offhand gives you by being able to use Axe mainhand and Mace + Axe or Mace + Shield, etc. in offhand with seemless swapping in combat, because of the way switching works when you only fill an offhand weapon in your 2nd slot and use the same mainhand.

Edited by Strife025, 24 January 2013 - 11:30 PM.