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#1 AKGeo

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

Ok, so this has been bugging me, and it's finally become enough to actually post a thread on here about.

Is anyone else getting the impression that Anet developers ACTUALLY use the cliche dartboard selection process for their updates? Lost shores, This new frost and flame update, random bug fixes while ignoring many others, placement of the fractals entry portal, among many other things. I think the only well-thought-out change was the Mad King's entrance in Lion's Arch and subsequent incremental rebuilding of the fountain. Everything else with even that event was shoddy at best. The portals at random spots in the starter zones, the lazy design of the clock tower (two actual towers...one you climb on and the other just visual, in the same instance).

An announced guesting feature without any mention of fixing fractals party difficulties.

Hey, this might be a good thing...because if people can't grind out the fractals as easily because overflows are diminishing and truly random groups will have a hard time sorting out guesting, it might force people into the rest of PvE.

Another flip-side argument is that this new update is taking place in existing zones rather than a random location in the middle of the ocean that nobody goes to for any reason other than botting and a rich orichalcum vein. That means the new content will likely have continuing participation even after the practically-guaranteed one-time percursor-fest.

I might just be ranting here, and feel free to criticize all you want (this IS Guru after all), but all of these updates seem to be simply random, unrelated, and unnecessary sources of filler material to keep people interested. Just like a cliche drawing-room dartboard.

#2 MisterB

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:17 PM

Clearly the solution is to provide ANet with more darts. And a dart launching gatling gun(s). We will also need more transparency into this development process, because that would be entertaining to watch.

#3 Krazzar

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:15 PM

Welcome to the world of gaming.

#4 DarkGanni

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostAKGeo, on 24 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Ok, so this has been bugging me, and it's finally become enough to actually post a thread on here about.

Is anyone else getting the impression that Anet developers ACTUALLY use the cliche dartboard selection process for their updates? Lost shores, This new frost and flame update, random bug fixes while ignoring many others, placement of the fractals entry portal, among many other things. I think the only well-thought-out change was the Mad King's entrance in Lion's Arch and subsequent incremental rebuilding of the fountain. Everything else with even that event was shoddy at best. The portals at random spots in the starter zones, the lazy design of the clock tower (two actual towers...one you climb on and the other just visual, in the same instance).

An announced guesting feature without any mention of fixing fractals party difficulties.

Hey, this might be a good thing...because if people can't grind out the fractals as easily because overflows are diminishing and truly random groups will have a hard time sorting out guesting, it might force people into the rest of PvE.

Another flip-side argument is that this new update is taking place in existing zones rather than a random location in the middle of the ocean that nobody goes to for any reason other than botting and a rich orichalcum vein. That means the new content will likely have continuing participation even after the practically-guaranteed one-time percursor-fest.

I might just be ranting here, and feel free to criticize all you want (this IS Guru after all), but all of these updates seem to be simply random, unrelated, and unnecessary sources of filler material to keep people interested. Just like a cliche drawing-room dartboard.

Yup friend, I totally agree with you and tbh I'm almost always negative regarding GW2 and ANet in general because of this.

And speaking about bugs, I still can't use my mistfire wolf elite cause it's still bugged even for characters created after the account upgrade (I did report this 3 times). Some bug fixes are either hit or miss or even totally unneccessary, a few examples:

Taken from wiki:

1. Fixed a bug that allowed tonics to be used repeatedly in quick succession. - Yup game breaking, no joke.

2. Added a much wider variety of weapon skins to the general mobs' loot drop. - Can't say I see a big difference, same dull skins, even exotics in fractals are all Cultural T3 Norn, where are the asuran, human, sylvari ones?

3. Detha's Path: Fixed a problem with Detha's script where she would sometimes not start the event to fix the cannons. - Detha is still heavily bugged, both in spike trap and final part.

Also what I find to be stupid and a total waste of time is the ability to preview any type of armor (light, medium, heavy) which was a really good feature.

When is ANet gonna start taking bug fixing a bit more seriously?

Edited by DarkGanni, 26 January 2013 - 09:11 AM.


#5 cyclopsje

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:22 AM

I agree to some degree but i would first wait till the update is live for making drama.

#6 AKGeo

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

View Postcyclopsje, on 26 January 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I agree to some degree but i would first wait till the update is live for making drama.

Because all the other updates thus far don't already set the stage? Everything that's happened so far only tells me to expect more of the same from this one.

#7 FoxBat

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 24 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I might just be ranting here, and feel free to criticize all you want (this IS Guru after all), but all of these updates seem to be simply random, unrelated, and unnecessary sources of filler material to keep people interested.

Do you not see your own contradiction here?

I don't like features > stability either, but it's pretty clear why that is the case in all home software ever.

#8 Falfyrel

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 06:53 PM

Apparently a dartboard criticism process is being developed as well.

There are legitimate complaints to give about Arenanet, but seriously? I'm not going to hold it against them for fixing some updates earlier than others, and compared to pretty much every other MMO company in existence they've done a very fine job at staying on top of issues.

Not to mention - they've already made a blog post addressing planned Fractals party changes. It's coming - but if they caved in and released it right away, it'd probably be a buggy mess and everyone would have their pitchforks raised anyways.

Not that I'm saying that criticism of ANet is bad or unwanted - there are definitely some things they've done wrong - but come on, out of everything to complain about you bring up the one thing they've covered in a blog post saying "sorry we screwed up, changes are coming?"

Not to mention that you said they haven't given "any mention of fixing fractals party difficulties," which is flat-out false because the old blog post is still out there. I can understand your frustration at the slowness of the updates, and in some qualified ways agree with you, but you're giving us complainers a bad name.

Edited by Falfyrel, 26 January 2013 - 06:56 PM.


#9 Waar Kijk Je Naar

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 24 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

the lazy design of the clock tower (two actual towers...one you climb on and the other just visual, in the same instance).
How is that lazy? 99% of people won't even notice there's 2.

What's next? "Lazy design, characters are hollow!"

#10 Flaming_Foxx

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:47 PM

In their defense it isn't that they aren't addressing a lot of these issues it is that a lot of these things aren't as simple to address as you seem to think they are. Guesting for example has been in constant development and the only reason it hasn't been implemented until now is that each time they thought it was ready for an update QA found something very very wrong with it. In a giant game where there are TONS of things that can impact on something that, like guesting, seems simple on the surface it isn't always just a case of 'make this feature and chuck it in' or 'fix this and put out the update'. The amount of testing they have to carry out on each fix is insane, and even then they can't always prepare for everything that goes wrong.

So yes, it can be unfortunate, but it is simply a fact of game developing.

Also two clock towers were two clock towers for a reason.
It relates to  the spinning of either the tower or the things floating around the tower. The one you could see in the distance was designed simply to be the visual representation. Yet if they had actually built it spinning like that it would have been very difficult to play on. Therefore they created a second tower where the spinning worked differently.

In regards to you thinking that they place things in random places on maps. It's simply not true.
The gates and features are generally put in places and distances from one another that encourage people to cover a whole map. So yes it isn't entirely logical. But if you wanted to create a true to logic and practicality city you would be placing a LOT of these things in very close proximity to one another.
When you've taken the time to design and build a massive and beautiful city you kind of want people to see as much of it as possible. I know that I've personally enjoyed exploring them and marveling at the gorgeous design.

I also don't see what could be dartboard about the release schedule of the updates?
Halloween and Christmas occur around real world events and the Lost Shores update was released to show that even though players have defeated Zhaitan, the other Elder dragons are still very much a real threat. Which is also what I assume Frost and Flame is going to be showing.

#11 Omega X

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

Izzy's balance dartboard probably rubbed off on the rest of the team.

#12 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

I think it's just because we're seeing the outputs of a very complicated process.  An MMO has a million problems, some of which are unfixable because the game's mechanics cannot resolve then, and some are a simple bug someone can squash in two hours.  It also has a million goals: let's make a new dungeon, let's improve this zone, let's balance PvP damage, etc.

If you think about it critically, you are often going to squash those little bugs, especially when those minor problems can have such leverage on the overall state of affairs.  For bigger problems that are game breaking, you have to do a lot more thinking ahead of time before you ever actually try something to fix it to ensure the solution is not worse than the original problem.

There's also no way to anticipate ahead of time what's going to break, or when someone is going to come up with that brilliant solution that's quick and easy.

Look even the most transparent developers don't tell you the details, because when you are making something as complex as a game, the details change often and frequently.  I haven't seen a major change come that we weren't told about ahead of time in general terms.  While the improvements often seem erratic, what I see is a constanty trickle of small things and then every so often a major "package" shipped through.  I really don't know what else to expect; it would be nice if the game improved constantly at a linear rate or if the emphasis was constantly on the parts of the game I deal with the most, but that's just not how it works.

#13 AKGeo

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:04 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 26 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Do you not see your own contradiction here?

I don't like features > stability either, but it's pretty clear why that is the case in all home software ever.

No I don't see the contradiction, because you're taking it the wrong way. You seem to think that a game that is driving people away because of bugs and broken mechanics needs to ignore all of that and instead release more garbage content to distract them from the problems so they don't leave. WvW is broken, culling kills anyone who feels like running off, the minimap doesn't have any indication of enemy locations (like GW1 did) in the immediate vicinity (you can hide dots for those out of LOS if you want to maintain the ability for covert play), and instead of fixing this (they actually did fix culling but reverted it...wtf?) they add "breakout events" to bring non-hardcore WvW'ers and PvE'ers into enemy-controlled maps thinking they can make a difference. Hooray, you took one tower. Now what? Now you go off and try to take that supply campOMGWHEREDIDALLTHESEDEFENDERSCOMEFROM?

What they're doing just doesn't work. They need to stop putting out content updates like Lost Shores and Flame & Frost and just fix the problems. Put all energy into making the game work as it was intended from the start. Neither of these content add-ons seemed to be anywhere near intended pre-beta. But there are things that WERE intended but were left out for the release. Finish the game, THEN give us new material. Seriously, it's better that way.

#14 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:14 PM

You do know that Flames and Frost is mainly a fix-patch right? Same as February patch is going to have quite a few WvW & PvP fixes.

Just because they name the updates and give them a little story does not mean they are not fixing stuff with them.

#15 Rukioish

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:15 PM

i can assume that some things are easier to fix than others, so they fix what they can.

#16 Craywulf

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

Just because some bugs or issues are higher priority than others doesn't mean those lesser bugs shouldn't be fixed first. There's a lot that goes on in bug fixing and just like they said about guesting feature was almost implemented at launch, but they discovered a problem with it. Obviously the problem was complicated, seeing how it's taken this long to add it to the game.

Some things which you view as "lazy design", ArenaNet might not see them as such.

#17 AKGeo

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 January 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

You do know that Flames and Frost is mainly a fix-patch right? Same as February patch is going to have quite a few WvW & PvP fixes.

Just because they name the updates and give them a little story does not mean they are not fixing stuff with them.

Um...it's being touted as a content update with "changes to the world of Tyria", and fixes are coming with it.

Not the other way around.

Yeah, I understand that some fixes are easier than others. I never said they weren't. But what part of "stop working on new material until the bugs are fixed" don't you understand? The more people working on new material (which will have bugs of its own...see Fractals), the less who are working on fixing the existing bugs that they were responsible for.

Edited by AKGeo, 26 January 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#18 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 26 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Um...it's being touted as a content update with "changes to the world of Tyria", and fixes are coming with it.

Not the other way around.

And these "changes to the world of Tyria" could very much mean fixes to several of the issues the game currently have. Such as the fact that people apparently abandons most zones and so on.

The Fractal fixes you are talking about have even been confirmed several times to be in this update, so that argument is invalid as well.

#19 AKGeo

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

So if they release something bugged, and release the bug fix after several months, apparently the argument saying they should have fixed it sooner is invalid? Your logic is flawed, friend. And if you're going to claim that fractals bugs may have been difficult to solve...sorry. There's already a slew of pre-existing models they could have used...each dungeon comes to mind.

And people not visiting certain areas in PvE is not one of the issues I was referring to. It wasn't caused by bugs. It was simply caused by a lack of things to do in those areas.

I'll put it into simple terms for you:

FIX BUGS BEFORE MAKING NEW STUFF.

Edited by AKGeo, 26 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#20 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 26 January 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

So if they release something bugged, and release the bug fix after several months, apparently the argument saying they should have fixed it sooner is invalid? Your logic is flawed, friend. And if you're going to claim that fractals bugs may have been difficult to solve...sorry. There's already a slew of pre-existing models they could have used...each dungeon comes to mind.

And people not visiting certain areas in PvE is not one of the issues I was referring to. It wasn't caused by bugs. It was simply caused by a lack of things to do in those areas.

I'll put it into simple terms for you:

FIX BUGS BEFORE MAKING NEW STUFF.

Not the same people working on new content and bug fixes. This has been stated several times.
Also keep in mind that if they game ONLY released bugfixes people would simply complain just as much about the lack of new content.

They do have a rather nice balance between new features and bugfixes in their releases.

You do also seems to think that fixing a bug is simply adding or changing a bit of code.
You have to make sure that the change you do does not effect something else in the code (and seeing how big GW2 is it is quite easy to understand how massive the code is).

You say something about them having a model for fixing the disconnects in Fractals. But you are quite clearly missing the fact that Fractals are built completely different from the existing dungeons.
The only real things that are alike is the fact that they are both instanced. But other than that, they are quite different.

#21 Xsiriss

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

The problem is some things are so bloody obvious yet anet don't properly recognise them. Simple things that ruin all gameplay aspects.

Firstly design philosophy the ones where it's clear and have been fleshed out more are ok. Thief, Warrior, Guardian and Mesmer are good and fairly solid even if they have their problems of bad traits/gameplay aspects (Warrior in sPvP for example, Thieves in PvE). Then there are the others which are sorely pinholed into a few builds and under perform in terms of variety and general fun. Engineer for is a mediocre jack of all, Ele suffers build variety problems.

Then there's actualisation of their apparent philosophy. This is the huge lack of useful traits/weapons per class and the synergy they present. Weapons fit too nichely into PvE or PvP circumstances, if used at all. Similarly some trait lines are dominant and a must whilst others are a confused mess (again see Engi). Furthermore there are a huge amount of bugs and things plain left out (weapon stats for Engi, lackluster AI central to to Rangers, same AI problems for all minions etc.)

Content is the last big issue but a lot of people want to see different things. One thing I will say is WvW needs huge reworkings. Personally I think it needs to be less spammy, maybe spread out over district instances as in GW1. Other content issue is lack of variety, I'd also like to see a lot more skins/gear obtained through actual gameplay like dungeons rather than cash grinding or playing the tp.

Overally I'd rather see a fixed, working game that actually achieves what it set out to in the first place than a Frankenstein mess of sh** added to it. I'm aware there are different teams. but transparency and capability are not affected.

Edited by Xsiriss, 26 January 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#22 Verene

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:57 AM

People who talk about dartboard fixes don't understand how testing and fixing bugs in games work. Some things are easier than others to fix. Sometimes fixes break other things. Sometimes things happen on a live server that didn't in testing, or can't be replicated (the ice shield with Claw of Jormag is a bug they haven't been able to replicate, for example, that I've heard). It happens.

Edited by Verene, 27 January 2013 - 12:58 AM.


#23 AKGeo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

You say something about them having a model for fixing the disconnects in Fractals. But you are quite clearly missing the fact that Fractals are built completely different from the existing dungeons.
The only real things that are alike is the fact that they are both instanced. But other than that, they are quite different.

I'm not missing that fact at all. Try some deductive reasoning. I said that they built fractals the way it is and it's flawed, when they could have used the existing models for the other dungeons as a template and would not have had these problems. I don't think tossing a bit of randomizing into the existing dungeon framework would have killed it. I'm not a professional coder, no. But I can't imagine it being much harder than a simple rng with a memory of what's been used already and how many times the team has done it. And if you disconnect, why not just go right back to that instance? Or at least be able to reconnect? Is it because you start out in a "hub" instance before going into the fractals? IMO that's simply an extra step. You disconnect, you go back into that instance, then the portal THERE sends you to your party's instance.

The way it is now is just a garbage pail of a mess. People disconnect from FOTM more than anywhere else in the game. Inexcusable. And to let it go on for this long...they should have rolled back that update the first week, fixed the problems, then re-released it later on along with more content for other areas that were dead. Consequently, this coming update I see as a "fix" for the problem that FOTM caused: dead PvE.

#24 FoxBat

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostAKGeo, on 27 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Is it because you start out in a "hub" instance before going into the fractals? IMO that's simply an extra step. You disconnect, you go back into that instance, then the portal THERE sends you to your party's instance.

Currently disconnect from any instance is going to throw you back into your last spot in the open world. That's a position the game keeps track of for a number of uses (returning from the mists/wvw or just plain relogging) while instance position is not. (Since you'd have to keep track of which instance etc. doable, but just wasn't needed for other dungeons.)

As to why they don't let you jump back in from the open world, It's because fractals was intended to be an actually difficult dungeon given the scaling, with people eventually hitting a hard barrier until more ascended gear is introduced. They don't want people jumping through the hoops of swapping their toons or jumping out to respec traits every new fractal to push that difficulty barrier. It's the same reason they chose to remove waypoints as a stopgap until they properly address waypoint zerging while leaving the other dungeons alone. (Of course all the numerous exploit oversights don't really help that any...)

Edited by FoxBat, 27 January 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#25 Lucas Ashrock

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

OP can now guess why i left the game for something way better, and i kept harrassing this forum with the "junk" word, talking about gw2 management :P Your post perfectly explain most of the reason, you missed the overbugged patches continuosly released and here you are ^_^

Edited by Lucas Ashrock, 27 January 2013 - 12:59 PM.


#26 cyclopsje

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostWaar Kijk Je Naar, on 26 January 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:


How is that lazy? 99% of people won't even notice there's 2.

What's next? "Lazy design, characters are hollow!"

I agree i didnt know lol

#27 Red Intensity

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Their nigh-inability to fix things like broken/useless skills/traits is why I've put serious thought into abandoning this game. I know bug-fixing isn't easy, but wouldn't it be more logical to fix most of the old problems before introducing more content into the world and include the new problems on top of the old? It's as illogical as conscientiously choosing to make/birth a child before being financially stable enough to raise it.

#28 chullster

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostRed Intensity, on 28 January 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

It's as illogical as conscientiously choosing to make/birth a child before being financially stable enough to raise it.

lmao, humans seem to suffer from this form of stupidity alot, I heard in 13 years they'll be another billion (not million) people on the planet, that line from matrix about being similar to a spreading virus seems to fit.

Most parents, though not all seem to have children by accident, which is in most case an excuse. Not the best reason to have a kid.

#29 AKGeo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 27 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Currently disconnect from any instance is going to throw you back into your last spot in the open world. That's a position the game keeps track of for a number of uses (returning from the mists/wvw or just plain relogging) while instance position is not. (Since you'd have to keep track of which instance etc. doable, but just wasn't needed for other dungeons.)

As to why they don't let you jump back in from the open world, It's because fractals was intended to be an actually difficult dungeon given the scaling, with people eventually hitting a hard barrier until more ascended gear is introduced. They don't want people jumping through the hoops of swapping their toons or jumping out to respec traits every new fractal to push that difficulty barrier. It's the same reason they chose to remove waypoints as a stopgap until they properly address waypoint zerging while leaving the other dungeons alone. (Of course all the numerous exploit oversights don't really help that any...)

How goes your "speaking for Anet" stance now? What's this about them not wanting people to just hop back in, when they updated it to allow exactly that?

It was a bug. Plain and simple, and today's update proves it. Making stupid excuses and reasons to defend it doesn't help anyone. My posts stand. They should have used the existing framework from the beginning instead of using the Personal Story framework.




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