88 replies to this topic

[Minami Kaori]

Hey guys!

So I read in the sticky that commission works are no longer allowed. At all.
Makes me wonder what is so different from GW1?
Did GW1 not have that in the ToS then?
Or Anet just decided to take a tough stand in GW2 and not allow it?

Mods: I'm looking for a legitimate discussion on this.

Any thoughts, artists?

[Kattar]

We spoke with Regina, she spoke with Support at Anet, and we arrived at this decision. Especially given that we can't stop people from getting scammed or potentially keep them from getting banned, we're going to take the high road and steer clear of as many potential problems as possible.

We had the same rule in effect for a good while on GW1G - not sure why that changed to be honest.

And a note: the only commissions that aren't allowed are the ones that are traded for in-game items or currency. The issue is trading something that's in the game or something that's not in the game (gold/items ion game for artwork out of game).

[Minami Kaori]

Ahh I see, thanks for the explanation!

Too bad it's not allowed anymore though. I was looking forward to make some extra gold (hard for me to come by it without feeling like I'm doing an un-fun grind) in exchange for some neat character art.

Oh well... Sorry peeps (those I've been messaging with on Facebook about commissions).

Edited by Minami Kaori, 25 January 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Hailfall]

I am very saddened by this, especially since it was allowed on GW1G but i can understand the reasoning because of the scamming.

However I do not think that those people would get artwork from a good artist would scam someone just to get free work.

*sigh* I guess i'll start pming artists for commissions out of the site for real currency then again.. crapdammnit.

[Viatrix]

I am also very disappointed. First ANet broke their horizontal progression practice by introducing the fractals (my opinion but I still run them anyhow), now this one too? Where's the old ANet that we know *wails*

Oh wells

Edited by Viatrix, 25 January 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Invertation]

I'm fairly impressed this has arisen as an issue now.

Are there any quotes from the exchange with Regina? I've yet to see any official response on commissions during GW1 or 2.

[Senatic]

Why would you guys disallow commissions when scamming happens every day ingame and ArenaNet makes absolutely no rules about that? Hell I got scammed 2 months back, reported and all, and the guy is still hanging around lions arch scamming other people. Why is selling random stuff in map chat allowed then if it poses such a big risk of scamming?

Personally, I think it's silly. Some guy got talent and is willing to trade his services for a virtual currency - what's wrong with that. Why would you punish him because there are a few *s out there? Dear lord if the entire world was run like that we'd be in big trouble.

I guess this is why we can't have nice things.

[Minami Kaori]

Now I come to think of it, I have *NEVER* heard anyone getting scammed here on Guru, who wanted a commission piece.
Actually, not only not on GW2G, but neither on GW1G.

If anything, it's the artist that could get scammed, because they completed a piece and not get paid. But the artists I know (and any sensible one) would take a "loss" like that as practice to further their skills.

To be quite honest, the more I think about it, the less sense the "prevent scamming" explanation makes. :/

[JasmineMcCoy]

I guess the main issue is not so much the risk of scam, but the fact that artwork is an out of game commodity, while the gw2 gold is an ingame currency, thus Anet can't officially allow it at the risk of opening the door to gold selling and other forbidden trades (no, dear person from support, I didn't buy those 2k g for real world money, it's the payment for this stick figure I drew for that guy, dare you say it's not a worthy piece of art?). As much as I doubt they'll ever bother banning a real commission trade for ingame money, sadly I suppose they simply can't afford officially condoning it either.

Edited by JasmineMcCoy, 25 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Kattar]

JasmineMcCoy, on 25 January 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I guess the main issue is not so much the risk of scam, but the fact that artwork is an out of game commodity, while the gw2 gold is an ingame currency, thus Anet can't officially allow it at the risk of opening the door to gold selling and other forbidden trades (no, dear person from support, I didn't buy those 2k g for real world money, it's the payment for this stick figure I drew for that guy, dare you say it's not a worthy piece of art?). As much as I doubt they'll ever bother banning a real commission trade for ingame money, sadly I suppose they simply can't afford officially condoning it either.

This is the main reason. Anet says it's a grey area and that they can't say people won't get banned for doing it, so we're disallowing it. It really is as simple as that. It's unfortunate, but that's just how it is.

[shanaeri rynale]

I don't blame Guru for having this policy. It's yet another douche move by Anet towards the community. Art contests, commissions etc was a great way to showcase people's love for the game and their characters. We have many popular artists in my Guild, GreyF0x and Vinegaria to name but two. I'm in contact with other artists like Morag D all of which have never been scammed.

As mentioned above it's not like people get scammed anyway else.

While I support Guru's stance, because it really is their only option when faced with yet another blow to the wider community.

[Viatrix]

For the record, I've never been scammed.

The GW Art Community - both artists and art collectors  - are some of the most wonderful people who I've always been happy to make artworks for. In fact, the door that opened for me in the Art world was when Magik (Eastern Magic in GWGuru, MagicnaAnavi here and in DA) asked me if I was accepting commissions after I posted a  generic art thread in GWGuru Nolani.

No they were not good drawings (but I worked really hard on those with what skill level I had) but that small boost of encouragement has helped me come a long way since then.  Still grateful to her up to this day.

This is the reason why I am very disappointed by this news. It's not the inability to get gw goods for my artwork that made me sad. It's just I've always appreciated Anet's encouraging stance on this. Where do we draw the line? Are player hosted workshops/Contests prohibited now too since they have GW Goods as prizes?

Speaking of Workshops, I've never would have made it to Honorable mention in the Guild Wars 2010 Halloween contest  if not for one of the Nolani Workshops either. I still remember the critiques from Charlie Dayman on that particular piece particularly how I positioned her leg.  Tommy also said something about the cat and Infested Hydralisk gave me a critique on the goblin skull that eventually prompted me to change it to a human skull (among others. I might've mixed up the names but it's funny how I remembered those lol).

Of course, it is what it is and I will follow the forum rules nonetheless and this rant is not directed at the Guru Admins. I am just expressing my sadness and disappointment over the situation and the sad thought of a future artist like me back in the day missing such a great opportunity.

Of course there are other ways but I just had this weird combination of events that happened to be related to non-cash GW Commissions that helped me all throughout and I can't help but feel a bit sentimental and maybe overreacting about this. So I apologize.

Edited by Viatrix, 25 January 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Lordkrall]

I find it quite interesting that people seems to think that ArenaNet is completely disallow any kind of commissions at all. The only thing they actually do is to not allow you to trade INGAME stuff for out of game stuff. Which is quite logical.

If they allowed people to do commissions for ingame gold, how could they stop people from "donating" dollars for ingame gold?

Edited by Lordkrall, 25 January 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Jaqen Hghar]

Lordkrall, on 25 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I find it quite interesting that people seems to think that ArenaNet is completely disallow any kind of commissions at all. The only thing they actually do is to not allow you to trade INGAME stuff for out of game stuff. Which is quite logical.

If they allowed people to do commissions for ingame gold, how could they stop people from "donating" dollars for ingame gold?

I'm pretty sure ANet doesn't allow you to trade Guild Wars 2-related art for real life currency as well. I would've thought that trading  art for ingame gold would be the lesser evil. So how do the artists get paid for their work? If not through ingame gold or dollars, then what? We artists do art for the sake of doing art and to learn in the process, but for all the time and effort we put into our work we'd also like a bit of compensation.

I'm disappointed at this new policy but I respect Guru's decision to go forward with it. I just wish ANet would put an official statement out to clarify this whole issue.

[Lordkrall]

Jaqen Hghar, on 25 January 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure ANet doesn't allow you to trade Guild Wars 2-related art for real life currency as well. I would've thought that trading  art for ingame gold would be the lesser evil. So how do the artists get paid for their work? If not through ingame gold or dollars, then what? We artists do art for the sake of doing art and to learn in the process, but for all the time and effort we put into our work we'd also like a bit of compensation.

I'm disappointed at this new policy but I respect Guru's decision to go forward with it. I just wish ANet would put an official statement out to clarify this whole issue.

I doubt they would have any say whatsoever if you decided to paint a portrait of your (or someone elses) character and sold it for real money. Painting NPCs or such would be a completely different matter of course, since that would be copyright infringement.

[Frost Valkyrie]

I too find this pretty silly. We never had a problem with people taking real world currency for artwork. It was always in game currency. Not once did I hear of someone being scammed either. The Nolani crowd, which is the general base here in the Library, have class. They respect the player community as much as Anet themselves. I agree with Mina, where do they draw the line? Can we not have contests? Even their own contest....someone makes artwork, they get said prize, whats to stop them from selling whatever they got on Ebay or something?? Again I understand the position of Guru, and it's incredibly unfortunate that Anet has felt the need to step on an aspect of this game.

Lordkrall, on 25 January 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

I doubt they would have any say whatsoever if you decided to paint a portrait of your (or someone elses) character and sold it for real money. Painting NPCs or such would be a completely different matter of course, since that would be copyright infringement.

They could, any representation of the game thats sold for real money they could pursue.

[Lordkrall]

Frost Valkyrie, on 25 January 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

They could, any representation of the game thats sold for real money they could pursue.

Of course they could, but I doubt they would. Unless of course someone used an actual screenshot from the game and simply changed a few bits here and there. But I doubt they would start a legal procedure if someone decides to paint my character and sell it too me for a some money.

[Frost Valkyrie]

i dont doubt it at all.

[Jaqen Hghar]

You also have to consider that ANet also designed the armor that every playable character is wearing. Charr, sylvari, and asura are also ANet's own unique and distinct creations as well. I think you could probably get away with doing only a human portrait, but anything else other than that seems pretty iffy to me. As an artist I would never want to make real money off somebody's ideas and designs because I would never want that to happen to me in turn.

[Senatic]

Jaqen Hghar, on 25 January 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

You also have to consider that ANet also designed the armor that every playable character is wearing. Charr, sylvari, and asura are also ANet's own unique and distinct creations as well. I think you could probably get away with doing only a human portrait, but anything else other than that seems pretty iffy to me. As an artist I would never want to make real money off somebody's ideas and designs because I would never want that to happen to me in turn.

Except nobody makes any real money. Real money is not involved what so ever.

[Doctor Overlord]

JasmineMcCoy, on 25 January 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I guess the main issue is not so much the risk of scam, but the fact that artwork is an out of game commodity, while the gw2 gold is an ingame currency, thus Anet can't officially allow it at the risk of opening the door to gold selling and other forbidden trades (no, dear person from support, I didn't buy those 2k g for real world money, it's the payment for this stick figure I drew for that guy, dare you say it's not a worthy piece of art?). As much as I doubt they'll ever bother banning a real commission trade for ingame money, sadly I suppose they simply can't afford officially condoning it either.

That does make sense.  

However, wouldn't this also affect things like the Wintersday contest where in-game prizes are given?   I suppose ArenaNet could check the prize-winner in-game names against people who suddenly acquire a bunch of gold etc.  That would mean such contests will require GW2 IGNs in the future.   And what about the current contest?   They were still judging I believe.

Also this doesn't stop simply doing commissions for old-fashion, real-world money, right?   One can look up the price of gems/gold conversion and ask for commissions through Paypal or whatever.   It's another step of converting the cash to gems but doesn't sound anymore inconvenient than trying to find a time to log on and meet (having gone through that myself).

It would be unfortunate if this lessens the desire of fan artists to do commissions.   I hope things can just switch over to using real money.

If I could make one request, as long as no new commissions are being done could the mods keep up the old commission threads rather than remove them?  There was some great artwork on them.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 25 January 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[InfestedHydralisk]

This is a HUGE let down for me.

I absolutely love to see and share my view on my characters.
Since I am not a great artist as others, I appreciate the effort other artists the time they take to help you share your view on your character(s). And reward them with, which I found fair enough, in-game currency for the time you took to earn it.

It saddens me since I had a great time seeing all the artists on GW1 Guru and getting artworks from them.
And now I can't take this thought into GW2 anymore.

Honestly, I am really going to miss all other players' personal view on their characters they built.

Thanks alot Arenanet, not.

[Neo Nugget]

The only thing that is being restricted is the direct trading of in-game gold for pieces of art on the forum. Contests and such are still perfectly acceptable, it's just this specific avenue of trade we're looking to avoid.

I know it's disappointing for some of you, especially those who participated in them on gw1g, but hopefully you can understand where we're coming from when we enforce this policy.

[Doctor Overlord]

Neo Nugget, on 25 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

The only thing that is being restricted is the direct trading of in-game gold for pieces of art on the forum. Contests and such are still perfectly acceptable, it's just this specific avenue of trade we're looking to avoid.

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification Neo.

Only now I'm imagining a 'fan website' set up by gold farmers with weekly 'talent contests' where winners pay behind the scenes.

The Internet is making me jaded and paranoid.   A large number of contests being run by a site would likely be a give-away that something was up.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 25 January 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[Invertation]

If I'm to understand then, we're just disassociating Guru with commissions under the premise that it constitutes RMT?

I'm looking forward to our next attempt at getting an official response,, but I'm a bit skeptical given the last attempt.

[Lordkrall]

Invertation, on 25 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

If I'm to understand then, we're just disassociating Guru with commissions under the premise that it constitutes RMT?

I'm looking forward to our next attempt at getting an official response,, but I'm a bit skeptical given the last attempt.

Actually I think it is the other way around. ArenaNet is against INGAME gold trading for commissions.

[shanaeri rynale]

Neo Nugget, on 25 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

The only thing that is being restricted is the direct trading of in-game gold for pieces of art on the forum. Contests and such are still perfectly acceptable, it's just this specific avenue of trade we're looking to avoid.

"Dear artist. I would like to invite you to my draw a character contest. The contest is <commisson topic> As a gesture of good faith and that the contest is genuine I enclose 10 gold. Once your entry is complete you'll get another good faith gesture of 10g. I will announce the contest winner when all entries are in"

Once the comission is done. "Really sorry artist. while your work is fantastic i've chosen another peice to be the winner. As a thank you for your time you can keep the 20g"

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 26 January 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[Frost Valkyrie]

Neo Nugget, on 25 January 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

The only thing that is being restricted is the direct trading of in-game gold for pieces of art on the forum. Contests and such are still perfectly acceptable

Dont see how contests are acceptable and trading is not. So if I was to put a post up that I would like my character drawn- make it a contest, and the prize was 5g for everyone, stick figure or full masterpiece...That's acceptable? Even if it's something liiiike, winner gets a charged lodestone...you dont think most people would turn around and sell it? o.o Please guys, if you want to continue down this path of enforcement, contact Regina and ask her to respond.

-edit- haha guess i wasnt the only one thinking that Shanaeri...

Edited by Frost Valkyrie, 26 January 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[Minami Kaori]

Jaqen Hghar, on 25 January 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

You also have to consider that ANet also designed the armor that every playable character is wearing. Charr, sylvari, and asura are also ANet's own unique and distinct creations as well. I think you could probably get away with doing only a human portrait, but anything else other than that seems pretty iffy to me. As an artist I would never want to make real money off somebody's ideas and designs because I would never want that to happen to me in turn.

This doesn't make much sense in a way.... So for example you would never want to draw an elf, because that would infringe on Tolkien's rights?
In the same way, we can never draw a Sylvari, because it's too elvish? Or a charr, because charr are unique?
Nevermind for in-game gold, or even real life money, but even just as gifts?

One can go absolutely bonkers crazy, trying to draw the line.

For the record, I understand that Guru does what they to in order to comply with Anet. The entirety of my frustration is directed towards Anet.

I loved GW1's Nolani community, and was hoping to see it completely develop into the same over here in the Library as well.
So many people, so many different style of works....

I know that "only" the exchange of in-game goods for art is not allowed, but lots of artists find huge fun in drawing for gold, instead of farming and grinding for gold. I know I am/was one of those people.

[Gumboots]

I personally find this pretty absurd, i haven't known anyone to have trouble with this before and it's a great way to motivate artists to make more game related art (who doesn't want that!).

As long as artists protect themselves (e.g. heavy watermarking before payment) i don't see why this should be an issue, it certainly hasn't been in my past. I feel like if this "issue" had not been raised in the first place Anet would have been fine with it, but forcing them to give a response they have to give the safest reply, much like mod related topics that have been raised.
I'm not angry guru, i'm just disappointed.