88 replies to this topic

[Kattar]

Jaqen Hghar, on 27 January 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

The question I'd like answered is that if you can't do commissions for real money or ingame currency, what do you get paid with then? I'm not a complete saint and would like compensation for my time. I'll still be doing personal art of course because I enjoy doing art, but commissions contests will probably take the backburner if this is the policy.

Off topic- @Frost Valkyrie- My figurative nuts! Ovaries if you will, as I am female.

You don't get paid at all. With anything. That's the entire whole point of all this. You can't trading anything in game for something that's not already in game.

I've been an artist for years in various media, hence the question. The initial reaction was basically, "well if I can't get paid for creating art related to GW2, then what's the point of doing anything at all?" To which my answer is, "I don't know, maybe because you enjoy doing it?" In my eyes, getting paid for something I create is just a bonus. That's like saying you're not going to play music with your windows open because you don't want someone on the street to hear and enjoy it. Especially when we're dealing with virtual currency that can't benefit you in the real world, I really don't see what the issue is.

And I know, you're only going to paint me as insensitive, or obtuse, or that I "just don't get it," but in reality none of that matters. This decision was handed down from the company of the game that this site exists to serve. You can not like it or understand it all you want, but they've said all they're going to say - as evidenced by the "response" on the official forum. If you'd like to pursue it further that's up to you. But unless they tell us something different, and regardless of what they might tell you, commissions will not be allowed on this website.

[Gumboots]

Excuse my bluntness but this is just rubbish. You created a problem where there was none. This whole matter was discussed during the beta period and everyone came out of that happy with the conclusion so i really don't see why you felt the need to revisit it in the first place. Comparing this to RMT is ridiculous, RMTers make real money off of Anet's game while ruining a lot of players' experience in the process, hence the serious problem there, it's a pretty obvious line. You said it yourself Kattar, "Especially when we're dealing with virtual currency that can't benefit you in the real world, I really don't see what the issue is."

Also consider that this isn't just about people wanting to sell their art, some people (like myself) enjoy having art made for them, and while i don't necessarily have the time to spend building strong connections with other artists to make this happen, i would happily pay them in a relevant currency. No one gets shafted here, it doesn't affect the economy, no one makes real money off of Anet's game and it doesn't spawn a thousand chinese art farmers.

Kattar, on 25 January 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

We had the same rule in effect for a good while on GW1G - not sure why that changed to be honest.

Perhaps then you should consider looking into why it was changed?

I'm not out to hurt any feelings here but come on, the fact that you can workaround this new restriction by simply changing your wording is a pretty clear indication that it is a joke. Again, nothing but love for everyone here and this isn't going to stop commissions so it's no big loss, but i personally quite like gw2guru and would like to deal with commissions here rather than somewhere else (:

[I'm Squirrel]

This is stupid. Isn't it worse for arenanet to be making u pay real money for in-game money or in-game necessary items such as a fine transmutation stone?

I don't see any harm in artists asking for in-game money for a masterpiece work of art that you could not get anywhere else.

Like Jaqen H'gar does it, he sends you the watermarked piece of art he made for you, and if you would like the watermark removed, he sends you the watermarked removed copy and THEN you pay him in-game money. ffs this is one stupid rule we have here

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 27 January 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Enchanted Krystal]

Kattar, on 27 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

You don't get paid at all. With anything. That's the entire whole point of all this. You can't trading anything in game for something that's not already ingame.

Unless your Anet. Then you can sell fictional gems for real cash, and I don't think thats fair. Alas my opinion means nothing, but it is nice to vent.

[JasmineMcCoy]

From what I observed from GW1, Anet has never officially allowed commissions, they just sort of "looked the other way" since the practice is pretty innocuous in itself (pretty much the same that happens when, for example, couples/friends/relatives share their account info with each other - without even hiding it - and, although technically it's againt the tos, I have never heard anybody getting in trouble for it). The rule "nothing real for ingame money" is their defense against goldsellers and , although from the personal view I find it extraordinary disappointing, it's understandable that they aren't willing to put a hole in it.
I suppose the difference with a contest is that you actually don't "purchase" any artwork or service. You just look at the art and give money to the one you like best (you don't pay the artists to draw, nor you have any ownership claim on the winning piece).
Anyway, this makes me wonder how they would deal with something like this (in the spoiler because it made my post a bit too long -.-):

Spoiler

"Dear community, I am <insert artist's name here>. I am looking forward to drawning some gw2 characters so if you have a character you'd like to see drawn by me please post in this thread providing the following info:
- character's name
- screenshots
- your preference between face, bust or full body
- would you like it colored or just a lineart?
- if possible, character's biography
If you appreciate my art of your character, feel free to show it by posting in this thread with comments or by donating ingame money to <insert artist's gw2 name>.
(In case you are willing to donate but have trouble figuring out how much, I compiled a list which can be used as indication:
face 1g
bust 1.5g
full body 3g
add +50% for color.)
Thank you very much for visiting this thread."
Reply:
"Wonderful artwork! I'd be glad if you chose to do a lineart full body of my <insert profession here> <insert name here>.
<insert screenshots here>. I have no doubt it I'll absolutly love it so I already made sure I have 3g ready for you."

[Thalrax]

You dont have to pay a subscription but you cry about Anet selling gems, you dont want bots and gold farmer ruining your economy but cry about not being able to trade real life stuff whit ingame stuff. Why would art in this case be better then any other real life stuff like money, exchanging money for ingame gold and exchanging arts for ingame gold is the same thing. You are in no way better then people who buys gold from gold farmer you dont actually play the game to get your gold like everyone else. You take real life stuff and buy gold whit it. They dont owe us anything we dont own that company we own the rights to play there game so if they say something that`s just it there is no talk back to be made and in this case it was pretty obvious this wasnt allowed its just pure logic they cant allow  it find me a game where they actually allow it and looking the other way is not allowing it. And for the record i like arts and im ok whit taking commissions to its just the talking back and crying about guru not allowing it on the forum is just silly if we dont follow the rules fine but guru needs to follow them.

[Craywulf]

I, on 27 January 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

This is stupid. Isn't it worse for arenanet to be making u pay real money for in-game money or in-game necessary items such as a fine transmutation stone?

I don't see any harm in artists asking for in-game money for a masterpiece work of art that you could not get anywhere else.

Like Jaqen H'gar does it, he sends you the watermarked piece of art he made for you, and if you would like the watermark removed, he sends you the watermarked removed copy and THEN you pay him in-game money. ffs this is one stupid rule we have here

Again this is more complicated than it looks. ArenaNet can not allow their virtual currency to be used to barter for things that are not manufactured by ArenaNet. Don't confuse this as a case of virtual items vs real items....but rather the currency involved (in-game gold and/or Gems) AND the items in question. The items in question can NOT be outside their existing cash shop. You must use THEIR currency with THEIR items. The law requires ArenaNet to instate this policy. They can get in very BIG trouble for allowing THEIR currency  to replace or undermine the American dollar. It's as far I know this is a Federal law that comes with extremely heavy penalties.

So this isn't a case of ArenaNet being jerks.

[I'm Squirrel]

Craywulf, on 27 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Again this is more complicated than it looks. ArenaNet can not allow their virtual currency to be used to barter for things that are not manufactured by ArenaNet. Don't confuse this as a case of virtual items vs real items....but rather the currency involved (in-game gold and/or Gems) AND the items in question. The items in question can NOT be outside their existing cash shop. You must use THEIR currency with THEIR items. The law requires ArenaNet to instate this policy. They can get in very BIG trouble for allowing THEIR currency  to replace or undermine the American dollar. It's as far I know this is a Federal law that comes with extremely heavy penalties.

So this isn't a case of ArenaNet being jerks.

Oh. I had no clue it was an actual government enforced law. I take back everything I said. Does that make selling game accounts illegal in the US as well? ex. people selling WoW accounts, runescape accounts, gw2 accounts etc

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 27 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[coldredhands]

Yaaawwn. What a boring issue. I can only assume that this came up as a "debate" because the people on these forums aren't used to the exchange of virtual goods for art, because this practice has been around for literally a decade. And it's always been a grey area.

If virtual currency laws were actually so stringent and Anet could actually get in seriously trouble for a tiny number of artists asking for a handful of fake coins for a drawing or two, Gaiaonline would've been dead and buried a thousand times over by the US government for the absolutely GIGANTIC art market functioning entirely on virtual currency on their website. But the truth is that this kind of trading is utterly insignificant. It's not like GW2's gold currency has the application of Bitcoins, which is virtual currency intended for use of purchasing real goods and services worldwide and can be used to purchase actually valuable things. It's not like you're going to use GW2 gold to purchase a Monet, robbing the government of millions of dollars in taxes. In fact, the amount of real world money exchanges for artwork an artist is likely to ever do on this (or any) GW2 fansite so small it's not even taxable at all. They're honestly not even comparable. The US government is not breathing down Anet's back for the tiny amount of commissions that get tossed around on GW2Guru.

If there's anything that's a legal gray area, it's the copyrighted designs of the characters' armor. Companies tend to look the other way in this regard, and given that there are official posts on the forums about taking commissions and nobody has cried about their account being terminated for copyright infringement, it appears that's Anet's stance as well. If Guru doesn't want to allow commissions on their website that's their perogative, and probably a measure to protect themselves from the whining and mass hysteria that would ensue in the infinitesimally small chance that someone got banned for this. (And it's more likely they'd be banned for being accidentally flagged as a Chinese gold farmer than anything else.) Honestly, Guru can do what it wants. Artists can take their commissions to a different website (I'd recommend advertising on tumblr for real money and just buying gems if you really want gold that bad). It's really not a big deal.

clarity edits

Edited by coldredhands, 27 January 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[Craywulf]

I, on 27 January 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Oh. I had no clue it was an actual government enforced law. I take back everything I said. Does that make selling game accounts illegal in the US as well? ex. people selling WoW accounts, runescape accounts, gw2 accounts etc

This has more to do with the the attempt use virtual currency to replace legitimate currency. You can not undermine the value of the dollar by creating a new currency which not controlled by the government. Selling game accounts is entirely different matter (which I'm sure each company has their own policy), unless we are talking about using GW2's in-game gold or Gems to buy other game accounts.

[Lasareth]

The forum can dictate what it wants, but this legal talk is silliness--unless there's something unique about Diablo 3's real money auction system that makes it special. This is a voluntary policy institution by the developer and a CYA by the forum. Nothing more.

In before the virtual black market of GW2 art rises.

Edited by Lasareth, 28 January 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Morag D]

coldredhands, on 27 January 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

But the truth is that this kind of trading is utterly insignificant.

My point. Because really, if, say, 20 people here on Guru and another handful somewhere else are making a couple of G by trading their time making art for the time spent ing grinding stuff, that's going to have a HUGE impact on ing economy. I'm not even going to comment on the scam thing because that has never ever been an issue, ever.

I'm quite bummed this is happening at a point where prices of everything are skyrocketing for no apparent reason, so while I thought I was getting close to finishing my Legendary it's now going to take me a gazillion years because any possible side income from doing a few drawings has been ruled out.

and don't come saying people can just spend real money on commissions. because almost all of them don't. so that's not really a point either.

[coldredhands]

Morag D, on 28 January 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

My point. Because really, if, say, 20 people here on Guru and another handful somewhere else are making a couple of G by trading their time making art for the time spent ing grinding stuff, that's going to have a HUGE impact on ing economy. I'm not even going to comment on the scam thing because that has never ever been an issue, ever.

I'm quite bummed this is happening at a point where prices of everything are skyrocketing for no apparent reason, so while I thought I was getting close to finishing my Legendary it's now going to take me a gazillion years because any possible side income from doing a few drawings has been ruled out.

and don't come saying people can just spend real money on commissions. because almost all of them don't. so that's not really a point either.

It isn't a point in an argument for or against, it's just a suggested alternative. Of course it's not ideal, but what can you do? Guru's staff members are obviously not going to change their minds. I agree with your points that it has no effect on the economy, that it's unlikely anyone is going to get banned because of it, that overall the practice is really entirely harmless. But it's Guru's right to make this decision and enforce it, even if I think it's a silly decision they made. It's their website, and apparently they're worried about it - why are they worried? I really don't know. It's not like anyone on the Guru staff can to be personally held responsible if someone got banned/scammed/anything -  and it's enough for them to put this policy in place. Unfortunately for artists, that's all there is to it.

Either advertise elsewhere, for GW2 gold if that makes you more comfortable, or . . . that really seems to be the only choice, since they're going to delete threads that advertise here.

[Archaes]

Our enforcing of the rule and locking of the threads isn't meant to intimidate anyone, and it shouldn't.

If someone wanted to do Guild Wars commissions for actual money they could probably get away with it. What artists choose to do and risk with the ToS is up to them. If they go off and take private commissions off-site, that's their business, their choice. Because it's a gray area, as other mods have said, there's probably a chance we could be held partially liable if we were called out.

We're watching our backs and playing it safe, and if ArenaNet changes their mind on the matter, we'll be happy to let people showcase and offer their services.

[Kyandeisu]

hope im not neco'ing this but this did catch my interest since i was (keyword was) wanting to open commissions for fanart @_@ but i guess this thread kinda killed that thought lol.
I had tried doing commissions for ingame stuff on another game with a different gaming company and i had asked their staff personally literally went to their offices and asked xD there response was this
"We do not allow such transaction of ingame gold/items for artwork from artist because it would be an unfair advantage to the other players."
I really disagree with that statement but just throwing it out there, maybe anet has the same mindset @_@ dunno but its really disappointing maybe they are part of the whole "artist should work for free" act ive seen going around on some art community websites D:

Edited by Kyandeisu, 23 February 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[shanaeri rynale]

While I was at lunch with Colin Johanson on Weds, I had a brief chat with Aiden (the EU CM) re: this issue. he stated that the risk of scamming was the main factor behind it, but that if people who had been artists and customers in GW1 could PM me with their experiences (both good and bad) he would make sure this issue was revisited.

Basically, they need to be convinced they wont get a bazillion support tickets about being scammed by artists. So, hopefully given enough examples and testimonies we can change their mind. So while its not a dead cert theu will change their mind, at least they are prepared to have another look.

[Hailfall]

So you want us to PM you with our experiences? Because I have been a very happy customer who got art from several artists on more then enough occasions and I have not scammed or been scammed (with not receiving art or so) in that whole period. I find it a real shame that commissioning is not allowed and would hope that it can be revisited.

[two maces]

You can always advertise your work on reddit and get commission based work, there's at least 1 artist who's been doing it for Charged Lodestones.

[Frost Valkyrie]

I'd be glad to pm you my experiences! Thanks for asking about this for us. I know it will mean a lot to the commissioners and customers to be able to do this again.

[Minami Kaori]

I'll PM you as well.
Unfortunately some of my art customers from GW1 are nowhere to be found (anyone still remember Yun Soo Jin, for example?), so I couldn't have him as backup reference, others like Hailfall (points up) are definitely still around (yey!) to be cross-reference for Anet, if they ever wanted to check.

[Hailfall]

I didn't name any artists in my PM but did link to the art I was provided with, and honestly I would give references for the artists i've commissioned if necessary.

I want commissions back!

[Frost Valkyrie]

I guess I didn't think of putting refrences but if that would help, I would be glad to do that as well.

[Invertation]

And there's hoping that every little bit counts.

[Viatrix]

PM sent. Though I did not attach any links. I cant remember which ones I commissioned and which ones are art trades >_>

[Invertation]

It's been about a month now--dare I ask if there's been any progress on this?

[Noyoki]

At first I thought the controversy would be over the IP infringement since in the user agreement everyone agrees that they have absolutely no IP rights to any content and aren't allowed to receive compensation for derivative works.  I find it somewhat ridiculous that they would "officially" state the main concern as scamming when an actual legal reason exists.  That also kind of begs the question that if they're willing to put the illegality off as a non-issue why the heck would they see "art scamming" as such a prevalent and dastardly crime that ANet, and even more so, GW2G, would ban it.  Heck if you're going to be such a fastidious prude about it then technically all fan art is illegal under most national IP laws; so go hurry up and delete all art threads and ban all the damn creativity from this site.

[Xunlai Agent]

This is a policy set forth by Regina Buenaobra, who last posted on Guru on 17 August, 2012. What an absolutely absurd line to take and what a farce for a professional company! I guess I would ask Martin Kerstein but the last time he logged in to Guru was June 28, 2012. Then again this is a company that entrusted Gaile Gray with community relations which just about says it all. Glad to see Guru bending over and complying with this nonsensical policy though...

[Hailfall]

The thing is.. on the official forums they do allow commissions.. so I wonder why there and not here..

[Noyoki]

Hailfall, on 09 May 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

The thing is.. on the official forums they do allow commissions.. so I wonder why there and not here..

I saw that too, which makes this situation look even more asinine.  They're gonna lose a good deal of the artists' and collectors' traffic on here if they keep this policy.