213 replies to this topic

[Eldryth]

I've been reading these forums for a while, but after going through the Durmand Priory in game and discovering a bunch of new lore, I thought I should finally register and post about it here.

The Durmand Priory is studying a lot of ancient records (primarily Dwarven and Jotun) to learn about the Elder Dragons, and there are some pretty interesting discoveries if you talk to the scholars there.  First, to put to rest one of the most mysterious topics in the series: The Giganticus Lupicus were in fact destroyed by the Elder Dragons!

The second discovery I found was that this is not the first major war against the dragons.  The last time the dragons woke up, another five races united to fight them: the Dwarves, the Jotun, the Mursaat, the Seers, and the Forgotten.  The Priory is studying those races' records to try and find out how they survived, but the scholar who tells you this isn't very hopeful that the current civilization will remain intact given what happened to them.

And finally, the biggest discovery of all:

There are SIX Elder Dragons!

This comes up a lot in the conversations.  The previous five races fought SIX dragons.  The Jotun had legends of SIX gods that periodically awake and devour the world.  There are no details about the sixth dragon, and since nothing specific is said about the Deep Sea Dragon either, I think it's safe to say that they know nothing except the fact they exist.

[Konig Des Todes]

The GL thing was highly likely from the get go, and implied right away as well. So not that big of a revelation.

Same goes with the second, we knew since Edge of Destiny for certain that the Elder Dragons were awake before, and that something happened - tengu, jotun, dwarves, and Glint knew of this. The bigger revelation is the mention of Seers, mursaat, and, most importantly the Forgotten. It's also interesting to note that Seer and Forgotten are capitalized, whereas the other races are not, implying that these are not their race's names.

The reason why the Forgotten are especially interesting is that they were supposedly brought by the Six Gods in 1769 BE.

Also, I recall the mention of jotun lore mentioning six "swallowers" not "gods" or "dragons."

[Eldryth]

Konig Des Todes, on 27 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

The GL thing was highly likely from the get go, and implied right away as well. So not that big of a revelation.

Maybe, but since it still gets discussed so much, I thought it should be mentioned.

Konig Des Todes, on 27 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Same goes with the second, we knew since Edge of Destiny for certain that the Elder Dragons were awake before, and that something happened - tengu, jotun, dwarves, and Glint knew of this. The bigger revelation is the mention of Seers, mursaat, and, most importantly the Forgotten. It's also interesting to note that Seer and Forgotten are capitalized, whereas the other races are not, implying that these are not their race's names.

The reason why the Forgotten are especially interesting is that they were supposedly brought by the Six Gods in 1769 BE.

I didn't notice the capitalization thing, and didn't consider the dates.  Given that we already know of those race and their names, I don't think that's right.  The part I focused on was the fact that the Mursaat and Seers supposedly worked together for this.  Given that they eventually wiped each other out in a massive war, I think it'll get to the point that the other races failed to destroy the Dragons and survive because they didn't unite like we will.

Konig Des Todes, on 27 August 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Also, I recall the mention of jotun lore mentioning six "swallowers" not "gods" or "dragons."

That's probably right, I didn't have time to type this up then, and I didn't remember the exact words.  It certainly seemed to be implying some form of deities though, even if they didn't use the word god.

[The_Blades]

Its very odd that the forgotten were involved in such war. Specially because of that that Konig mentioned, their relation to the human gods and the whole story of them acting as caretakers as the gods "terraformed".

for sure the forgotten knew that there was an elder dragon beneath arah, and they let the gods live there as if nothing was happening. strange.

I havent got to the durman priory yet 8taking it slowly) so this is very interesting, keep it comming.

[Konig Des Todes]

Eldryth, on 27 August 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

I didn't notice the capitalization thing, and didn't consider the dates.  Given that we already know of those race and their names, I don't think that's right.

If you want to get technical, the Forgotten are called such because:

"The serpents never returned to the world of men, and slowly, their influence faded. To humans, they were just a part of the past, spoken about only in legends and myths. Eventually their memory all but passed from human consciousness. But they were not gone, only forgotten. "

I somehow doubt the Forgotten were actively called such while they weren't, you know, forgotten. As for the Seer race naming, well, it just seems odd that Anet would repeatedly (this isn't the only mention of those race names being capitalized in GW2 from what I've seen and heard) capitalize those two but no others.

[draxynnic]

As Konig said, it's unlikely that the Forgotten would have called themselves Forgotten before they were, well, forgotten. In the case of both the Seers and the Forgotten, it does seem more likely that their races had different names before being called, well, Seers and Forgotten.

Given that the old history of the Prophecies Manuscripts have been shown to be inaccurate (having come from Glint, who lied her snout an extra yard in length to cover her true origins) it's possible that the Forgotten simply didn't come from the Mists, and they were serving Glint before the gods arrived. Alternatively, it's possible that the way the Forgotten survived was escaping into the Mists and looking for help there - it's even possible that rather than the gods bringing the Forgotten to Tyria, it was the Forgotten who brought the gods to Tyria. Certainly, it does seem interesting that each of the old races does seem to have some connection to the gods - Forgotten we know, Thruln the Lost claims that the jotun used to be favourites of the gods, the dwarves preferred the Great Dwarf but did invoke members of the Six at times, and the Mursaat appeared to have an adversarial relationship. The Seers we don't know, but we know the least of them of those five races - but they did seem to be working with Glint in Prophecies.

[Brynjar]

So, what about the sixth dragon? We have Jormag, Primordius, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and 'Bubbles'. Is the sixth one dead, killed or defeated in the last cycle? Or hasn't he woken up yet? Or has he woken up, but he's somewhere we're not noticing, like the DSD? Perhaps south in Cantha or Elona, terrorizing the folk down there.

[draxynnic]

The leading theory is Cantha, with the dragons and dragonlike creatures there being the descendants of the sixth dragon - a few of us had predicted a sixth dragon there before we knew there was a sixth.

[Konig Des Todes]

I would presume that it woke up at the same time Primordus did - since the Great Destroyer wasn't there to wake up all Elder Dragons, just Primordus, it's odd that despite him being pushed back, there was no other awakening.

[Lokheit]

Konig Des Todes, on 28 August 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

I would presume that it woke up at the same time Primordus did - since the Great Destroyer wasn't there to wake up all Elder Dragons, just Primordus, it's odd that despite him being pushed back, there was no other awakening.

Just out of curiosity, how is that the goal of the Great Destroyer is to awake every dragon and not just his master? I though they weren't allied between themselves. Where is this stated?

[Konig Des Todes]

Uh, you obviously misread what I said. I said the Great Destroyer was not there to wake up all Elder Dragons. What I was denoting was that since Primordus was pushed back, and the others waking on time, there should have been another dragon waking up when Primordus did since they're waking up roughly every 50 years.

If a second Elder Dragon didn't awake, and if the GD wasn't defeated, then there would have been a 100 year gap.

And to nip a counter-argument in the bud: the other Elder Dragons (at least Jormag) also had an "alarm clock" aka champion who was trying to give their master energy to rise sooner, so Primordus wasn't cheating or anything in an attempt to get a head start over the rest (in fact, one could argue that Primordus shouldn't have been the first to awaken under such pretenses).

[deathblossom]

I thought it was BECAUSE our characters killed the great destroyer he was awoken sooner. I think i remember reading that somewhere.

[Konig Des Todes]

No, he was pushed back because of the Great Destroyer's death.

[KillSlash]

I'm thinking that the sixth one is actually dead, and that will prove to the vigil that they are killable, and the 5 others were put to sleep proving the whisper's point

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes, on 29 August 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

And to nip a counter-argument in the bud: the other Elder Dragons (at least Jormag) also had an "alarm clock" aka champion who was trying to give their master energy to rise sooner, so Primordus wasn't cheating or anything in an attempt to get a head start over the rest (in fact, one could argue that Primordus shouldn't have been the first to awaken under such pretenses).

Where is that stated? Especially given that Kralkatorrik's champion had turned against him, and he still rose at about the right time? Jormag did have his champion trapped (or voluntarily sleeping) in the lake that converted Svanir, yes, but it may have been content to wake up at the normal time - its dreaming mind just taking the opportunity presented to it when someone was silly enough to contact it.

Edited by draxynnic, 29 August 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

That Jormag's champion was working to wake him up sooner? Edge of Destiny - when Eir talks about Svanir and the Sons of Svanir, she says the creature in Drakkar Lake siphoned energy from them to hasten Jormag's awakening.

Though mentioning Kralkatorrik is an interesting point to make... perhaps Kralkatorrik was originally to wake when Primordus did, but Glint's betrayal - that is, assuming she turn-coated after Kralkatorrik went to sleep - could have pushed him back 150-ish years. But if Glint betrayed Kralkatorrik before then, that's another story entirely.

[draxynnic]

The impression I got is that she defected afterwards... but we'll see. Apparently it's one of the storylines to come.

[Eldryth]

So, about the sixth dragon- is it at all possible that it could be connected to those steam creatures that started showing up in Lormar's Pass?  They seem to be mechanized forms of existing creatures- while a Machine Dragon does seem odd, it kind of looks like it could be a form of dragon corruption.  And unless I'm missing something, even the Priory has no idea where they came from, so it seems possible to me that we may be seeing the beginning of a new dragon waking- like the Destroyers coming to wake Primordius in EotN.  They also showed up in the first Asura Infinity Ball mission- when you supercharge your device to see the future, it creates a portal to a world filled with them.  I haven't played the rest of that story, though.

[Konig Des Todes]

That's not impossible, though such a dragon would be corrupting in the same way as Primordus and machines... are not fitting the Elder Dragon MO of representing nature. The steam creatures are more like the opposite of the ED minions.

It's more likely the sixth dragon is in Cantha, as I recall a Priory member mentioning "mid Pre-Imperial Era" - the only date during which we have is the supposed time the Forgotten arrived on Tyria (world or continent - unknown) - with an added line of "that can't be right." Those who are of the Priory, I heard, will be able to see her say she's researching Elder Dragons.

This goes along the theory that Kuunavang is, like Glint, a freed dragon champion. If that speculation is right, then this is an "Elder Sky Dragon" or "Elder Star Dragon."

[luminumcan]

Konig Des Todes, on 29 August 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

That's not impossible, though such a dragon would be corrupting in the same way as Primordus and machines... are not fitting the Elder Dragon MO of representing nature. The steam creatures are more like the opposite of the ED minions.

It's more likely the sixth dragon is in Cantha, as I recall a Priory member mentioning "mid Pre-Imperial Era" - the only date during which we have is the supposed time the Forgotten arrived on Tyria (world or continent - unknown) - with an added line of "that can't be right." Those who are of the Priory, I heard, will be able to see her say she's researching Elder Dragons.

This goes along the theory that Kuunavang is, like Glint, a freed dragon champion. If that speculation is right, then this is an "Elder Sky Dragon" or "Elder Star Dragon."

If this is the case, then I'd speculate that a likely expansion scenario could be traveling south to Cantha after the defeat of Zhaitan allows passage into the open sea. We'd likely start seeing the minions of the Deep Sea Dragon out in the open water, assuming there are any explorable areas in the ocean itself (remnants of the Battle Isles?), or at least in the coastal regions of Cantha. The likely addition of tengu as a playable race in the future would fit well, too, as it's likely that a fair number of tengu would be interested in traveling to their ancestors' homeland. The Empire of the Dragon may be more willing to relax their isolationist and xenophobic policies with the threat of an Elder Dragon on their doorstep. Or maybe the Empire itself has already been conquered, and we'll be aiding a resistance movement.

[chrisbdrake]

I believe the dragons may be a natural magic thermostat. If it's true that the elder dragons are using up the magic, maybe once the magic reaches a certain level the dragons go dormant.  Then, the dragons sleep until the magic level becomes unbearable to them and they wake up and once again use up all the magic.

Konig Des Todes, on 29 August 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

This goes along the theory that Kuunavang is, like Glint, a freed dragon champion. If that speculation is right, then this is an "Elder Sky Dragon" or "Elder Star Dragon."

I like your thoughts here.  I think a celestial dragon is a possibility here.

[Cherrie]

I wonder what is the relation between human gods and the dragons.
They're not mentioned at all as participating in the previous fight with dragons, one could assume they were "gone",much as they are now, for one reason or another. Or they were not in exsitence yet. Gods dissapear, dragons awake. Dragons are put to sleep, the gods appear again.

In GW1 GWEN, the facets of the 6 gods appear as 6 dragons.
One could find other links too, though they might be coincidental.

Edited by Cherrie, 31 August 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[Venbloodblade]

Cherrie, on 31 August 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I wonder what is the relation between human gods and the dragons.
They're not mentioned at all as participating in the previous fight with dragons, one could assume they were "gone",much as they are now, for one reason or another. Or they were not in exsitence yet. Gods dissapear, dragons awake. Dragons are put to sleep, the gods appear again.

In GW1 GWEN, the facets of the 6 gods appear as 6 dragons.
One could find other links too, though they might be coincidental.

That just reminds me we still don't know exacly what the end text of the quest "Path to Revelations" means xD

[Akela Rumi]

Hmmmm, Although it is a difficult step to take but at the time of the first awakening of the dragons there where 6 Gods right?

So maybe the 6 elder dragons are linked to those original 6 gods. So I took the time to look at the dragons and their minions to see if I could link them to one of the original 6 gods.

Some are more obvious then others

Kralkatorrik - creatures looks like Abadon servants so Abadon?
Zhaitan - undead so Grenth?
Primordus - fire servants so Balthazar?
Bubbles - Lyssa (the twin goddesses of water)
Jormag - Ice creatures.

Jormag is difficult, cause Grenth is the God of undead and Ice. But I would associate Grenth more with undead and so with Zhaitan,
So if I have to pick one of the two remaining gods I would go with Dwayna. Specially cause she is pictured as a ice goddess in some artwork and it makes slightly more sense then it would be Melandru.

That would mean that the last Dragon would be linked to Melandru. But again im making some wild guesses here and it does feel too much farfetched. So I think there should be more evidence before linking the dragons to be an anti-gods of the 6 gods.

[Korlic]

What about Dhuum and Menzies? Where do they fit in what the 6 Gods 6 Dragons theory?

[Cherrie]

Abadon was consumed / contained by Kormir so I think he's out of the picture.
I'd say Kralkatorrik would be linked to Lyssa (pink and purple!).
Jormag might very well be linked Dwayna (she goes for water and ice) and Bubbles - to could be Kormir, though we know almost nothing about him.

Dhuum and Menzies I think are also out of the picture here since Grenth occupies their spots.

[Korlic]

Cherrie, on 31 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Abadon was consumed / contained by Kormir so I think he's out of the picture.
I'd say Kralkatorrik would be linked to Lyssa (pink and purple!).
Jormag might very well be linked Dwayna (she goes for water and ice) and Bubbles - to could be Kormir, though we know almost nothing about him.

Dhuum and Menzies I think are also out of the picture here since Grenth occupies their spots.

The dragons existed before though, so the combination would be dragon to god to dragon type connection. So Dhuum and Menzies are not accounted for. A possible solution to this is there still are more than 6 dragons. I have yet to hunt this lore out in game, but if the races only DEFEATED 6 dragons, there is no reason that there couldnt be more. The 6 defeated may have the links to the gods.

[Konig Des Todes]

Akela Rumi, on 31 August 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Hmmmm, Although it is a difficult step to take but at the time of the first awakening of the dragons there where 6 Gods right?

Unknown.

Forgotten were around, so if they really were brought by the Six Gods to the world from the Mists, then yes the Six Gods would have had to been around during the last rise of the Elder Dragons.

The whole Dragon-to-God thing is an ancient theory, which has always been debunked by the unequal numbers, but (sadly imo) that's no longer an issue...

If one must compare them, you get this:

Jormag=Grenth (ice)
Zhaitan=Dwayna (life/death/undeath)
Kralkatorrik=Lyssa ("illusion") or Melandru ("earth")
DSD=Abaddon (water)
Unknown=Melandru or Lyssa (whichever's not Kralkatorrik).

However, Dhuum was never tied to ice, only death, so he'd be fitting Zhaitan more than Jormag. Which kicks Dwayna out, leaving her to be the unknown. Thus no god relates to Jormag.

Connection broken.

Along with this, Abaddon had a predecessor, though we know nothing of it. (to note: Abaddon was the god of knowledge and water, Lyssa took up water after Kormir rose into godhood).

Akela Rumi, on 31 August 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Specially cause she is pictured as a ice goddess in some artwork and it makes slightly more sense then it would be Melandru.

Where is Dwayna pictured as an ice goddess? She's the antithesis of ice. She's warmth.

Her color is blue, yes, but that's not ice.

Cherrie, on 31 August 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Dwayna (she goes for water and ice)

No, she doesn't. She is air, life, healing. Associated with warmth and spring. She's not water - that's Abaddon, then Lyssa - and she's not ice - that's just Grenth and Grenth alone.

And Dhuum and Abaddon wouldn't be out of the picture if the dragons relate to the gods, because they'd be relating to older gods - or rather, to the gods' indestructable power.


The 6 gods to 6 dragons theory doesn't work out, they don't match up nicely. There is no dragon that fits Dwayna unless the sixth is a sky dragon, and if so, there's no god to match Jormag and Zhaitan (Dhuum would fit Zhaitan, Grenth would fit Jormag, but they weren't gods at the same time).


Menzies doesnt' really work since he's never said to have divinity. Though then again, Grenth is Dwayna's son apparently, so his divinity may simply be that he is a god's child. Which would explain why Abaddon was killed when replaced, but Dhuum wasn't - Grenth isn't a god of death, persay. Which matches with him being called "Death's herald" by Samuel in Hoelbrak.


Hmmm, makes me wonder... could Grenth's father be Dhuum?

[AiponGkooja]

It's settled, the 6th dragon is under the pale tree, and controlling it...  spoilerz!

[Sethroque]

What if the human "gods" actually got their powers by exploiting the sleeping dragons magic power?