213 replies to this topic

[Konig Des Todes]

draxynnic, on 26 January 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

Ohhhhh, Konig is not going to like that you've cited him as inspiration for bringing out the dragon-god equivalence theory - he's one of the main opponents of the theory.

You know what's funny? I read this before reading MrEdus' full post. Good thing I did, now I'm prepared to facepalm. Let's see if I do!

I'll be responding to this in order, so if I repeat something you said drax, no offense.

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

I also assume that everything originates from the mist.

No need to assume this - while not everything comes directly from the Mists, the Prophecies manual (a part that is not written from an in-universe perspective) states that all things can trace their origins to the Mists.

While they may not come from the Mists themselves, anything and everything can look at where they came from, and where that came from, and so on and so forth and eventually find ties all the way back to the Mists. Similar to how the Bible claims all humans, no matter what, can claim ties to Adam and Eve.

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Next my thought is that the 6 gods and the EDs are the same entities. I believe it was Konig who put forth an idea about the EDs being something like pure magic that became sentient. I would further that in saying yes, but so were the gods. This could go to explain why the 2 sets of beings never coexsist in the same plane of exsistence. Couldn't it be part of the cycle? For 'x' number of centuries they take the form of the 6 gods, then they exit, and the EDs begin to form.

Right then. Facepalming time.

It is outright PROVEN that the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons are not the same thing. Sources: We see Abaddon, Dhuum, and Kormir in the flesh in GW1. Grenth is outright stated by one of his seven Reapers to be in conflict with Zhaitan, who's stealing souls from Grenth, during the personal story step "Cathedral of Silence". The statue of Dwayna at her temple (the one Malchor possesses) is sculpted in Dwayna's precise image - as are, for that matter, the other statues at the temple - sculpted by Malchor himself by looking at the gods directly. Each Risen Priest/Priestess talks about the gods as separate entities as Zhaitan.

In short: the Six Gods are humanoid (if not human in appearance), while the Elder Dragons very much are not. Furthermore, Grenth - at the very least - is both very much alive and very much active during GW2's time and is a rival to Zhaitan to varying degrees. He's just not active in Tyria and Tyrians don't know diddlysquat of what he's doing.

We also know for a fact that the Elder Dragons existed - for many cycles - on the world of Tyria long before the Six Gods stepped foot on the land.

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Through many cycles, perhaps the gods devised a way to stop the destruction caused by the EDs, so, they gathered an army gathered from the mists (the Forgotten(the minds), the Mursaat(the muscle)) and brought them to Tyria.

BZZT.

Mursaat predate the Six Gods on Tyria.

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

This would also explain the hatred that the Forgotten have for the Mursaat.
**Having them also be beings from the mists could also explain how/where they phase out to.**

The forgotten hold no known grudge for the mursaat. You mistake the forgotten for the seers there.

And the Mists is indeed where the Mursaat left to - for they fled the world, and the only place to go to from the world is the Mists (and then to another world or realm).

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Like Konig, I believe that the gods are more mantles of power than specific beings, in other words, I think that the pantheon is ever changing much as the dragons that we see this cycle are different manifestations of the same mantles of power from previous awakenings.

Wait, what? Where or whoever said the dragons this time are different than last? If anything, the opposite is said to be true.

I did make a conjecture once based out of nothing that an Elder Dragon may have been killed, but a new one of the same element formed, but it really holds no grain of salt to it - especially since we know for a fact that Kralkatorrik is the same, and Zhaitan, Jormag, and Primordus' names are all known from dwarven legend.

Furthermore, if the ED act the same in regards to passing on the mantle of power, then when ZHaitan was killed he should have risked exploding in raw power like Abaddon did.

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

So, I took my stab at fitting a story together, but still there is the matter of correlating the 6 to the EDs. As has been argued many times in the forums, the direct matches fall apart. My theory came to me when I saw a circle made of paving stones.
IMAG0008.jpg
I made this simple illustration to try and get my idea across. My theory is that its more like a wheel in correlating them. EDs have aspects of multiple gods and vice versa, also the dominion of magic that each god holds sway over overlaps.

Though Ice is still without a god when you take out Grenth. Your theory still falls apart there. And Lyssa, Kralkatorrik and Balthazar hold nothing on air (that's Dwayna's and Dwayna's alone). Same with Dwayna and earth/nature. While that concept holds more water than the typical thoughts, it still falters in various places.

draxynnic, on 26 January 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

While the gods have elemental powers (with the exception of Kormir), when it comes to the gods I would say it's the concepts that are far more important to the makeup of the gods, and the elements are simply elements that are related to those concepts

I'd have to agree with this, and support it by the fact that - to all our knowledge - there was no god(dess) of ice before Grenth, and water was passed from Abaddon to Lyssa. The elements bit seems to be more of an Addendum to the Six Gods, something that helps give them personality and their conceptual aspect (what the norn would call "Action") some physical manifestation.

I would argue that the norn's view on the gods is most accurate to the core foundation of what makes a god - that is, that they are "Spirits" of Action. They don't call Balthazar by his name, they call him War (and not Fire, Honor, Mass Murder, etc. etc.). The only aspect that stuck between the Abaddon to Kormir translation is Knowledge (what the norn call her). Same with Dhuum to Grenth being Death (again, what the norn call him).

It seems to me that the Gods are simply adding stuff to their description based on their personalities and preferences - Grenth is the God of Death above all else. He just was always associated with ice and judgment, so he kept those aspects when he became god, becoming the patron of strict ethics and god of death, ice, darkness, and judgment.

When you look at it like this, then there's no ties between dragon and god - except for Zhaitan sharing a tie with Grenth (which puts them as competitors for souls). Except for the number "six" - and there are currently indications that tell us there might be a seventh Elder Dragon (tied to Kuunavang).

[draxynnic]

It is worth mentioning here that most of the statues in Orr do not match their original appearance, having been corrupted by Zhaitan - it'll be interesting to see if they revert to their original appearance with the restoration of the Source (those that weren't outright destroyed in order to secure their cathedral). We do, however, see several incomplete statues of Dwayna in Malchor's work area that avoided corruption, possibly because they were never imbued with Dwayna's power to be corrupted.

Grenth is an interesting one, since Dhuum technically still holds the mantle of Death. It's possible that strictly speaking Grenth is still Sorrow (as he was from the time when he was the Prince of ice and Sorrow) - however, his control of the Underworld allows him to do a credible job of faking at being Death to all but those few who know that the true Death still remains confined within the Hall of Judgement. Mind you, this hypothesis weakens the dragon-god theory further, since it's basically saying that there are in fact seven gods (or Spirits of Action), eight if you count Menzies (as Destruction).

[Konig Des Todes]

That's mainly only the ones at the temple or in Arah itself - in which they look like undead of some kind. But they're of the same design we see in, for instance, Divinity's Reach. And those not in the temple are just a little faded in appearance.

And Grenth was always the "demigod" of Ice, Sorrow, Mortality, and Judgment. In a way, he always held sway over death. He just wasn't the Omega Death - rather, as the quote from Malchor says, he is the inevitability that all things comes to an end. The mortality of all things.

Fun fact: Grenth is also tied to destruction (there's a human necromancer in divinity's reach who complains that Grenth is too morbid, saying "death, darkness, destruction. Grenth is just too morbid" or some such - specifically mentioning destruction I know). I always had fun playing, jokingly of course, favor to the idea that Grenth was in reality Menzies and that Dwayna is the shared parent between Grenth/Menzies and Balthazar. But of course, that's fairly improbable - much like the pale tree=dragon champion..

[draxynnic]

Even so, I suspect if the norn knew of Dhuum, they'd regard Dhuum as Death, and Grenth as something else - Judgement, perhaps. His portfolio before Dhuum's overthrow was related to death, but the portfolios of Melandru and Dwayna are also closely linked - if, hypothetically, Dwayna was to be imprisoned and not heard of for over a thousand years, I could easily see Melandru coming to be viewed as the goddess of life even if she's technically still "only" the goddess of nature while the aspect of life remains held by another.

[Konig Des Todes]

I suspect that the norn *do* know of Dhuum - maybe not on a widescale, but those of the Priory more than likely do if their interest is in divinity; and those who went to Shelter Docks and read the scroll certainly would. Same with Abaddon.

I'd presume they'd call Abaddon "Secrets" rather than "Knowledge" while Dhuum may be called by one of his titles (Omega Death, Death Inevitable, etc.) rather than simply "Death". Though if they do go the route you say, I presume Dhuum would be Death and Grenth would be Mortality.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Where was it stated that Lyssa took water from Abaddon? I was under the impression that water was never explicitly stated, but is probably assumed to be under Grenth's control since GW1 water magic seems to make no distinction between ice and water, and Grenth -is- the patrol god for water elementalists.

[Konig Des Todes]

Human biography (as well as the Priest of Lyssa found in Queensdale) say that Lyssa's associated with water.

This was not so in GW1, when Abaddon was alive. And he was the god of secrets and the depths (aka knowledge and water). A lot of "Water Magic" skills in GW1 were actually ice (even Water Trident appeared more like ice than water), whereas this isn't the case in GW2.  Grenth is still the god of ice, but Lyssa's now the goddess of water - and wasn't in GW1.

[draxynnic]

That's pretty much the size of it. Unfortunately, the connections between Abaddon and water in-game are fairly subtle - Lord Jadoth calls him teh lord of the Everlasting Deeps, and in GW2 one of his Devoted is the Devoted of the Deeps. It was more explicitly stated in some of the pre-release media, stating that he was the god of knowledge and the ocean before his fall, but in a common lament among us lore fans regarding Nightfall lore, those articles are no longer online.

[Evans]

I would say Lyssa has been leaning towards water for a longer time, if mostly in Vabbi where beauty is strongly linked to the availability of water.

Also, she has an abandoned shrine in the mineral springs.

Edited by Evans, 29 January 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[BuddhaKeks]

Well it makes sense that Abaddon was the god of water, since water includes the deep sea, a place of many secrets. That might be a bit of a stretch, but with his tentacles, he also looked like a sea creature and his most devoted followers were a seafaring civilization.

Lyssa represents another aspect of water, that it has no true form of it's own, but takes the form of the vessel.

[Konig Des Todes]

His Nightfall form doesn't seem to have been his original form - based off of the statue in his temple, which would probably have also been made by Malchor. And the sharp teeth/tentacle hair was part of the mask on that staute, rather than him himself.

[BuddhaKeks]

Hmm interesting. I never got a good look at this monument and sadly GW2 doesn't allow to replay the missions. However, the tentacle theme still remains, even if it's just his mask and not his body. Look at Dwayna, she has wings, but the dervish form in GW1 also has this winged tiara, or what ever that was. So the theme of god is also present in his clothing, in Abaddon's case that would be tentacles, which in turn reminiscent of deep sea creatures.
Does anyone have a screenshot of the statue? I would like to take a closer look. I always imagined Abaddon to be bluish-green before his fall, and less "edgy". Now I wonder how close I came to the truth.

[Konig Des Todes]

I have a few, but it doesn't have color. It's basically a color'd version of this concept art, but put a scroll in his left hand, and monochrome it into marble and remove those snakes on his shoulders.

[Orual Fox]

Just a small side-track.  I don't doubt this knowledge, but where do we see the Norn referring to the Six as Death, Knowledge etc?  I must have missed it.

[BuddhaKeks]

I see thanks. It doesn't necessarily look like the tentacles are part of the mask though, atleast not on this concept art.

[Konig Des Todes]

@Orual Fox: It comes from two separate interviews (or maybe just one). Balthazar and Kormir were specific examples being War and Knowledge.

@BuddhaKeks: No, Abaddon was made more human-like for the statue.

[draxynnic]

Orual Fox, on 29 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Just a small side-track.  I don't doubt this knowledge, but where do we see the Norn referring to the Six as Death, Knowledge etc?  I must have missed it.

It was in response to a question raised at an interview - basically, humans regard the animal spirits as the norn gods (possibly subservient to Melandru in the overall cosmology, but still gods if not as powerful as their gods). The norn also view the gods as equivalent to their spirits, but where the animal spirits represent animals, the human gods are regarded as "Spirits of Action'. The example given is Kormir - the norn view her as Knowledge, and regard calling her Kormir as a 'quaint little human thing'.

As far as I know, though, this is never referenced in game. Which is, IMO, unfortunate, since it's an interesting expression of different attitudes between two cultures that are nonetheless compatible with one another.

[Trise]

Random thought: The Elder Dragons do not reflect aspects of nature per se, but rather forces of nature; specifically, natural disasters. For example: Kralkatorrik's corruption creates crystals, but he himself is described as a massive thunderstorm, and holds aspects of a great tornado (as implied through Snaff's encounter with Kralkatorrik). The same holds for the other known Elders: Jormag = blizzard; Primordus = volcano; Zhaitan = plague/disease (one who is many, corruption of the body, etc). "bubbles" could reflect any number of oceanic forces: tsunami, hurricane, flood, riptide, the "Bermuda Triangle" effect... we don't know enough about its true form to venture a guess.

From this angle, we can surmise the 6th will also be related to a disaster-force, perhaps earthquake (which seems conspicuously absent, though potentially related to Primordus), or, to fit better with the hints at a plant-related Dragon, wildfire or infestation.

[Konig Des Todes]

It's sandstorm, not tornado, for Kralkatorrik. And he's not described as a thunderstorm, but made a thunderstorm when he created the Dragonbrand.

Primordus and Zhaitan aren't really related to forces of nature. Zhaitan created a tsunami and Primordus made earthquakes but that's pretty much it.

The description of comparing them to natural disasters is usually in that they make natural disasters (all natural disasters presented are all things that they have made - earthquakes, blizzards, tsunamis, and storms; respectively to their awakening sans the DSD). Except in Kralkatorrik's case where his body became a literal sandstorm (though this can be seen the same as him turning his body into a few million small crystals, little different than how an elementalist becomes a tornado).

If we were to go that route, except for Jormag the four active ED have 2 disaster themed to them:

Primordus: Earthquakes and volcanos
Jormag: Blizzards
Zhaitan: Tsunami and disease
Kralkatorrik: Thunderstorms and Sandstorms

[draxynnic]

In the case of Zhaitan, though, while he was responsible for causing a tsunami, I don't think he could be said to embody tsunamis the way Primordus embodies volcanoes and so on. There's no water in his form, and the tsunami was a side-effect of another action he took, not something he did directly. In fact, his choice to raise Orr seems to be an indication that he actually doesn't like water all that much - he could have maintained Orr as an underwater fortress, but instead he chose to raise it, thus generating the tsunami.

It's possible that he did this because he felt a land fortress was more defensible than an underwater one, but the general point is that Zhaitan doesn't appear to have any direct connection to water, and the tsunami he generated was a side-effect of a magic that was more earth-based in nature.

[Konig Des Todes]

There really isn't a direct natural disaster related to Primordus or Zhaitan, to be honest. Most of the disaster comparisons come when the Elder Dragons are spoken about in general - which is typically earthquake, tsunami, hurricanes, blizzards, and sandstorms being used as examples.

So if you want to get technical, like you are, then only Jormag and Kralkatorrik are ever related to specific natural disasters. All other comparisons are either general elder dragons or what the ED has caused.

[Trei]

draxynnic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

In the case of Zhaitan, though, while he was responsible for causing a tsunami, I don't think he could be said to embody tsunamis the way Primordus embodies volcanoes and so on. There's no water in his form, and the tsunami was a side-effect of another action he took, not something he did directly. In fact, his choice to raise Orr seems to be an indication that he actually doesn't like water all that much - he could have maintained Orr as an underwater fortress, but instead he chose to raise it, thus generating the tsunami....

I'm more inclined to think that the raising of Orr was just a case of "oops... did I do that?" when he woke up and stretched.

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes, on 01 February 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

There really isn't a direct natural disaster related to Primordus or Zhaitan, to be honest. Most of the disaster comparisons come when the Elder Dragons are spoken about in general - which is typically earthquake, tsunami, hurricanes, blizzards, and sandstorms being used as examples.

So if you want to get technical, like you are, then only Jormag and Kralkatorrik are ever related to specific natural disasters. All other comparisons are either general elder dragons or what the ED has caused.

Primordus is linked to volcanic activity in quite a few places, or at least his minions are - whether he's causing them or simply taking advantage of offered opportunities, there is a noticeable correlation between the presence of destroyers and volcanic activity. There were also earthquakes associated with the rise of the Great Destroyer, although we don't know quite what the cause of those were.

[Konig Des Todes]

You misunderstood what I said.

Basically: Linking Primordus to volcanos is no different than linking Zhaitan to Tsunamis. Primordus is never compared to a volcano, he just makes them (or at least makes volcanic fissures).

[Thalador]

Correction: Primordus is referred to as a living inferno by an asuran researcher. Which makes more sense if he's capable of doing the same trick Kralky did. Turning into a fiery tornado is more practical than turning into an immobile volcano.

[Mockingjay74]

MrEdus, on 26 January 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Thank you for the feedback, obviously many things I did not think through to conclusion. And certainly no disrespect to anyone if I mis-quoted along the way.
My wheel idea was more a way to look at some parallels. The connection, for example, I make between primordus and melandru isn't the fire or the war, but more the rock and the earth aspect of it. Either way it is still very flawed and a rushed idea at best. I was trying to fill the smaller wheel with other attributes that might match and didn't get very far.
As far as the inspiration bit...only as far as it relates to the possibility of gods evolving from the mists. I figured, why not at least a similar theory behind the EDs themselves. The rest was a mighty big stretch, and I wouldn't want to pin that on him! ;-)
Again, thanks for the feedback. I can't wait to see what you guys figure out next.

Hey, welcome to the DP
One important thing to keep in mind is that there are so many theories and so many resources that are and are not discussed on here just because we haven't quite gotten there in the discussion yet. [insert metaphors involving icebergs and surfaces, etc.]

I've never seen anything like the graphic you came up wit, but it's also very logical and makes sense. There aren't any truly firm and definitive parallels between the ED's and the gods from a "Zhaitan = Grenth" perspective. Maybe the gods were placed into pairs or teams to combat the dragons?

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes, on 01 February 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

You misunderstood what I said.

Basically: Linking Primordus to volcanos is no different than linking Zhaitan to Tsunamis. Primordus is never compared to a volcano, he just makes them (or at least makes volcanic fissures).

Errr... Primordus was last seen over a lake of magma. His minions are made of animated rock and magma, and normally appear emerging from lakes of magma or volcanic fissures.

Zhaitan, on the other hand, has no connection with tsunamis or water in general that cannot be explained by the historical accident of the Cataclysm and Zhaitan's partial reversal of the same.

They are very different things.

Edited by draxynnic, 02 February 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

So how would Primordus making a volcano via tunnelling through fire thus making new shafts for the magma to flow through be any different than lifting a giant piece of land out of the ocean to cause a tsunami?

You're looking too into it, I dare say. Yes, Primordus' element lies in fire, but that doesn't mean he goes and becomes a volcano. He can, however, make one. The same way Zhaitan can make a tsunami.

Theoretically speaking, Kralkatorrik can also make volcanos if he wanted - he just has to dig deep enough.

[draxynnic]

I would say the connection is deeper than that. No, as far as we know, he doesn't become a volcano the way Kralkatorrik becomes a sandstorm in EoD, but everything we've seen of Primordus and his minions indicates a connection not just to fire but to volcanoes specifically. The connection comes up again and again, and if Primordus is anything like his minions in form, it probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch to describe him as essentially a living volcano in draconic shape.

Zhaitan, on the other hand... created a tsunami as a side effect of reshaping his territory to his liking, just as Jormag created a tarn in the rough area where the Iron Horse Mines used to be. Some of his minions have coral growing on them, but that's likely simply the result of their bodies having lain in the ocean until his rise. There is no connection to Zhaitan and tsunamis except that he happened to make one... once. Primordus has made, or at least exploited, several volcanoes and fissures, big and small, and his minions are essentially lava elementals contained within igneous exoskeletons - fighting a destroyer is essentially fighting a small volcano contained within a shape that is a mockery of a living creature. There is a very clear link between Primordus and volcanoes - in fact, i would say that calling him the volcanic dragon is probably actually more accurate than calling him the fire dragon.

[Trei]

Volcanoes and molten earth/rock (or lava) are commonly associated with each other to the point of being near synonymous.
However, they are but a side effect of a series of chain reactions involving lava and subterranean pressure, teutonic plates movements etc.

Lava still exists beneath places without volcanoes, just flowing along under the planet crust.

Imagine a planet with an interior filled with hot chocolate instead - the volcanoes would spew hot chocolate, not lava.

Would a Primordus on this side of the multiverse be a chocolate elder dragon then?
Something to think about.

Edited by Trei, 03 February 2013 - 01:19 AM.