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#181 Daenerys

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 02 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

So how would Primordus making a volcano via tunnelling through fire thus making new shafts for the magma to flow through be any different than lifting a giant piece of land out of the ocean to cause a tsunami?

You're looking too into it, I dare say. Yes, Primordus' element lies in fire, but that doesn't mean he goes and becomes a volcano. He can, however, make one. The same way Zhaitan can make a tsunami.

Theoretically speaking, Kralkatorrik can also make volcanos if he wanted - he just has to dig deep enough.
Primordus has a "magical" connection to volcanoes because of the earthen materials used to make them. However, I'm pretty sure Zhaitan doesn't have any magical connection to water. Even if Primordus did make a volcano by tunneling through something, he'd probably still have the ability to morph the rock and magma into a separate one or get the mountain with a hole in it to be a volcano. Zhaitan, however, was just getting up like any other person would after sleeping in until noon on a Saturday (I am speaking from recent experience).

I think the lack of connection you are finding with Primordus and volcanoes is false, and actually you're thinking of the lack of connection between Zhaitan and tsunamis.

Edited by Mockingjay74, 02 February 2013 - 06:44 PM.
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#182 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostMockingjay74, on 02 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Primordus has a "magical" connection to volcanoes because of the earthen materials used to make them. However, I'm pretty sure Zhaitan doesn't have any magical connection to water. Even if Primordus did make a volcano by tunneling through something, he'd probably still have the ability to morph the rock and magma into a separate one or get the mountain with a hole in it to be a volcano. Zhaitan, however, was just getting up like any other person would after sleeping in until noon on a Saturday (I am speaking from recent experience).

I think the lack of connection you are finding with Primordus and volcanoes is false, and actually you're thinking of the lack of connection between Zhaitan and tsunamis.

I personally believe that Primordus is able to control fire itself like puppets. But fire is unstable and not able to keep form for longer periods of time, so he uses the fire to manipulate things like rocks, which is why he can create volcanoes and the destroyers have the form of shards of stone kept together with veins of lava/flame. I know there are fire elementals, but I also believe that these are solely held together by strong magic and is by nature unstable, giving them a short life span.

#183 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:45 PM

You guys seem to be missing the point. Here, let me try putting it like this:

Yes, the destroyers do make magmic fissures. But do they conjure these out of thin air like an elementalist would a fireball? Or are these formed because they dug through the ground beginning at a magmic source?

Chances are it is the later. Meaning that their connection to being made of lava is irrelevant, because they're not using that connection to make these fissures and, in turn, Primordus making a volcano. In other words, Primordus tunneling and making a volcano is no different than Zhaitan lifting the land above him and causing a tidal wave. No magic to their element is used in either case.

And thus far, nothing has shown Primordus being capable of conjuring a volcano out of thin air - or destroyers able to conjure a magmic fissure out of thin air. Those that they made are done via tunneling.

In short: what I'm trying to say is that volcanos are unto Primordus the same as the tsunami was unto Zhaitan. They're side-effects of their actions. Primordus is the Elder Fire Dragon, thus if he is akin to Kralkatorrik or Jormag, he'd be best described as I believe it was said the asura describe him: an inferno. Not a stationary mountain spewing lava, but a storm of fire. In the same manner, given Zhaitan's ties to rot/decay (all undead, even recent ones, are extremely rotten), I'd say he's best compared to as a plague or swarm of diesease.

@Sword Hammer Axe: Primordus can likely control twisted lava, but I doubt he can control any and all fire/lava. Same way Primordus seems to be able to control disease and poison.

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#184 draxynnic

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:25 AM

We're not missing your point (or at least, I'm not) - I just don't find it convincing.

The nature of volcanoes is that they're not as spontaneous as sandstorms or blizzards appear to be (not the statement 'appear to be', as weather effects are generally the result of larger forces). That said, it's not clear whether volcanic fissures associated with destroyers are conjured or produced by tunneling, although the Destroyer Crabs at least can produce lava font-like effects. So there does seem to be at least some evidence that destroyers can conjure fissures out of thin air.

The things you're missing are:

First, Primordus' minions, if not Primordus himself, are created out of the materials of volcanoes - magma confined within igneous rock. both he and his minions have strong, innate volcanic themes to them. Zhaitan and his minions, by contrast, only have aquatic themes when the Risen itself was either an aquatic creature, or was lying in the water for long enough to grow coral before being made a Risen. Thus, these connections with water are incidental results of the history of the corpse before it became a Risen, not anything to do with Zhaitan's power.

Second, Primordus' modus operandi is volcanoes. He or his minions generate them on a regular basis - whether by direct elemental manipulations or via tunneling. He generates his minions out of pools of lava. Most destroyer attacks are preceeded by generating a volcano or fissure to the surface, or by finding an attack route (such as through an asura gate) from a location with volcanic activity (as happened in EotN when destroyers overran the Central Transfer Chamber). In short, Primordus has a consistent history of creating and making use of volcanoes, and the creation of volcanoes are a significant element of his tactics.

Zhaitan, on the other hand, made a tsumani as a side-effect of raising a fortress. To all evidence, he seemed completely unaware of the destruction this caused, and has never to our knowledge attempted to repeat the feat, even when launching attacks against an opposing stronghold such as Lion's Arch. It's not part of his strategy, it doesn't appear to be something he even realised would be a result of his actions, it's just a side effect of an action he took.

Through these two observations, it seems clear to me that volcanoes are much more connected to Primordus than tsunami to Zhaitan. For Primordus, it's a consistent theme of his strategy, the form of his minions, and where he and his champions lair. For Zhaitan, it's something that just happened to happen. Once.
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#185 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:39 AM

Primordus is connected to earthquakes. Same situation as Zhaitan with tsunamis.

My point remains unchanged and unaffected: Elder Dragons *cause* natural disasters, they aren't representations of these disasters.

I think in arguing over this, you might have forgotten what began this:

View PostTrise, on 31 January 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Random thought: The Elder Dragons do not reflect aspects of nature per se, but rather forces of nature; specifically, natural disasters. For example: Kralkatorrik's corruption creates crystals, but he himself is described as a massive thunderstorm, and holds aspects of a great tornado (as implied through Snaff's encounter with Kralkatorrik). The same holds for the other known Elders: Jormag = blizzard; Primordus = volcano; Zhaitan = plague/disease (one who is many, corruption of the body, etc). "bubbles" could reflect any number of oceanic forces: tsunami, hurricane, flood, riptide, the "Bermuda Triangle" effect... we don't know enough about its true form to venture a guess.

From this angle, we can surmise the 6th will also be related to a disaster-force, perhaps earthquake (which seems conspicuously absent, though potentially related to Primordus), or, to fit better with the hints at a plant-related Dragon, wildfire or infestation.

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#186 draxynnic

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:57 AM

Not really. There is still an element of each dragon being tied to primal forces that are associated with catastrophe. Jormag is the threats of blizzard and ice. Kralkatorrik is the storms in warmer regions. Primordus is volcanoes, while Zhaitan is disease and decay.

Whether this hypothesis will hold out over time is up for question - ironically I would regard Kralkatorrik as the most tenuous of them, but the real test is probably going to be whether Mordremoth turns out to have a connection with natural calamity or whether it's more of a slow spread thing.
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#187 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:40 AM

By your argument, Primordus is a massive odd-man-out. Volcanos are immobile, for beginners. I think that, although he may make them, it's poor order to compare him to such. It fits, but only when you ignore how others are compared.

Primordus is *fire* - it'd be a better comparison to call him an inferno, a wildfire, and so forth, rather than a volcano.

So I restate: Primordus isn't comparable to a volcano, but at best the _lava of a volcano_, no more than Zhaitan is comparable to a tsunami (a force which he caused). Or Jormag to earthquakes (which he probably caused when shattering the Shiverpeak Mountains).

Something I notice is that all Elder Dragons, sans Primordus if you continue insisting the volcano analogy, are all compared to versions of storms (or can be, in the DSD's case) with a slight modification for Zhaitan in that he'd be a plague (decay on wind, basically), which can take the shape of a storm easily enough. Blizzard, sandstorm, maelstrom (DSD)... Actually, I think Zhaitan's compared to a swarm once (and I know there's a risen boss which has a swarm of locusts surrounding him in the charr personal story). A firestorm of sorts is far more accurate for Primordus when considering this.

This is why I say volcano doesn't fit Primordus. Rather, it doesn't fit the notion of Elder Dragon-to-natural disaster comparison. Neither would tsunami, floods, or earthquakes. All four are mere side-effects.

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#188 draxynnic

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:52 PM

Except that Primordus doesn't take on firestorm characteristics. He's not rampaging around through surface forests burning them to ash in turn before moving onto the next, and neither are his minions. He's lurking underground and creating volcanoes large and small that his minions then emerge from.

In short, he doesn't act like a fire. He acts like a Father of Volcanoes.
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#189 Trise

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 01:51 PM

I love watching the two lore alphas going at it... sorry about that. Let me see if I can't find a middle ground: Primordus is the "lava" or "magma" dragon; there is only one natural disaster in which lava or magma destroys things directly: volcanic eruption. (...assuming that Destroyers are decidedly unnatural disasters) ...take from that what you will.

Though one point of contention can be addressed, the fact that volcanoes are immobile. Tectonic plates can (and do) move and shift, changing the positions of several thousands of fissures nearly constantly (albeit slowly relative to us).

Another random thought: We know Jormag always has been described as a living blizzard, but does he not also fit another snowy natural disaster, the avalanche? Does Jormag even fly?

#190 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

@Drax: And who's to say he's not doing exactly what you said to the plantlife underground? Remember Bogroots? A lot of plantlife grows underground. Plenty to enact wildfire. If anything, I'd say that's *exactly* what Primordus does. Burn all life to ash. When the Great Destroyer awoke, it was more than just an alarmclock and herald, he had a job to do: to exterminate all life on Tyria. When destroyers break to the surface, what do they do? Attack all life they find. Sure, they don't go burning all plantlife to a crisp (though they certainly do cause that by accident per Edge of Destiny), but they're actively seeking life to kill, and then as Trahearne puts it: Moving on.

And what volcanoes have Primordus made? Mount Maelstrom? Sure, there's destroyers there, but nothing says they made it. We only know of three places the destroyers proactive breached the surface by their own tunneling: Near Rata Sum (featured in Edge of Destiny), in Kessex Hills and Dominion of Winds, and in Lornar's Pass. In Timberline Falls, the dredge breached destroyer tunnels rather than the other way around; in Mount Maelstrom, while Primordus might have made that huge ass volcano, nothing really indicates such other than the periodical large destroyer influence.

Yes, Primordus is underground, but he certainly doesn't seem to be lurking. Lurking implies lying in place, waiting to strike and more importantly watching one's target. We've been told that Primordus is moving about clearing tracks of underground land. I'd hardly call that lurking.

Furthermore, to return to your "burning away then moving on" analogy for firestorms... Primordial Fire. This is brought up in Edge of Destiny and burns though just about anything - even stone. How else for Primordus to clear tracks of underground stone and dirt than burning it all away? Something that lava doesn't outright do in all cases (if any, I'm not a geologist so I'm uncertain on this). This sounds more like a super-firestorm rather than a super volcano (not _that_ kind of super volcano) to me.

So I would say, yes, Primordus is acting like wildfire and firestorms. While not burning down forests and feeding off of plantlife, he's burning away stone and rock itself, and intends to burn away all life.

@Trise: Yes, Jormag flies. He battled Owl in the air before killing her. And I'd say avalanche is unto Jormag the same way earthquakes and volcanoes are unto Primordus - side-effects of his actions.

And you trying to argue volcanoes moving - technically, it's the land that the volcano is a part of that's moving, not the volcano itself. The volcano, unless on the boundary of Teutonic Plates (which most art, but Primordus' volcanos - if any exist - would not), will remain the same distance to nearby landscapes over the millenia. To that degree, it's akin to saying we're moving because the earth is rotating.

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#191 draxynnic

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:27 AM

Good to know we're being entertaining. ;)

Yes, there is plant life underground, but just because there is plant life there doesn't mean that it's suitable conditions for a wildfire. There's problems with getting the oxygen to sustain one, for a start, and even in places like Bogroots, the vegetation (and therefor fuel) density is less than it is on the surface. If Primordus was truly an incarnation of firestorms, he should be on the surface where he could REALLY get some firestorms going. Instead, he's moving around beneath the surface, where the raw materials for volcanoes are found.

The issue I'm seeing with your thinking here is that you're taking a couple of data points - Kralkatorrik and Jormag - and assuming that that extrapolates to all of the Elder Dragons. However, that extrapolation doesn't follow - a statistician friend of mine will tell you that you need at least three points to establish a trend, and all of the others are extremely tenuous. Furthermore, what we've been told by ArenaNet is that the dragons are like natural disasters - do they really need to all be storms of various types, or can other forms of natural disasters also apply? Zhaitan certainly feels like less of a stretch when you simply make him an incarnation of plague itself rather than toxins blown in on an ill wind. What you seem to be doing is starting with the assumption that all dragons must behave like storms, and then arguing away an apparently contradictory data point on the basis that all dragons behave like storms and therefor this one must too - when the initial assumption is in doubt.

Now, naturally a volcano is a different kind of natural disaster to storm and plague. Volcanoes, as you say, don't move (although if the volcano was generated by a 'hot spot', like the one that generated the Hawaii islands, the hot spot might move relative to the plates above, causing the old volcano to go extinct as a new one grows. Technically speaking, it's probably more accurate to say that the tectonic plate is moving over the hot spot, but the difference is pretty much academic). A volcano doesn't batter settlements every season like sandstorms or blizzards might, nor does it rapidly spread like the contagion of a plague. Instead, people to nervously eye a dormant volcano for fear that it might once again become active, or carry the fear in their minds that a new volcano may suddenly appear in their midst. However, this different nature of the threat doesn't mean that  it can't be represented by a dragon, just that the dragon in question would likely behave differently.

And what do we see? A dragon that behaves differently to the others. Despite being the first to rise, Primordus is arguably the dragon that has had the least impact on the surface since his awakening. The initial explosion of Destroyers can be likened to the initial eruption of a volcano - if a volcano had access to asura gates and the sentience to make use of them to spread its destruction further - but when the Great Destroyer was defeated, the threat quelled like a dormant volcano. Since then, the threat posed by Primordus, at least from the perspective of the surface, has gone through cycles of activity and dormancy - instead of the constant threat posed by Zhaitan, Jormag and Kralkatorrik, in most cases his minions when brought to the surface appear to erupt as hordes seeking to overrun the area, but withdraw into dormancy if decisively beaten back. Instead of offering constant threat to those neighbouring his territory like the other three well-known dragons do, Primordus remains a occasional threat - potentially cataclysmic when his minions emerge, then fading back into dormancy.

In short - Yes, a volcano is a very different kind of natural disaster to any storm, and thus if a dragon was to represent volcanoes it would be expected to show different behaviours to those dragons that do represent storms. And Primordus shows this difference in behaviour.

Edited by draxynnic, 04 February 2013 - 05:32 AM.

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#192 Evans

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:42 AM

Since you are on the topic of Primordus, instead of interfering in your discussion I'd just like to add that I'm surprised how little impact Primordus has on the world of Tyria as we know it so far.

Like you said Konig, his minions only pop up in 3 a 4 places, and arguable Mount Maelstrom is the only part where they are in a memorable large area.

The thing is they had a larger impact on the world in EotN than they do now, which I find odd. Primordus seems to be the only ED so far that is completely focussed on destruction, but doesn't do much of that at all =/
I suppose the new Living Story will take that a step further. After all, what else could be causing those steam ruptures?

#193 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:26 AM

Drax, I think you're taking the topic of a wildlife too directly in what a "normal" wildfire would do and how it would act. I somehow doubt, for example, a blizzard would appear from thin air underground (when the Dragonspawn was killed by Edge of Destiny).

There's a difference between acting like and embodying, and actually being. Which goes back to my original point in countering Trise, no less.

Furthermore, we don't know why Primordus is underground. I mean, Zhaitan was underground too. But he doesn't seem to have been there - or in Orr, in fact - prior to his hibernation (given the Altar of Glaust). It's likely both were underground for the same reason: searching for magic to eat. And since then, Primordus has simply found it ample resources alongside being prevented from resurfacing thanks to the dwarves.

Actually, the assumption I'd be making is that they're all akin to moving disasters. Not necessarily storms (wildfire, for instance, is just what it says - a fire gone out of control; both wildfire and firestorm fit Primordus well enough, so they're interchangable just as snowstorm and blizzard would be for Jormag, or a plague/swarm/disease would be for Zhaitan). And through this, I'm taking three points: Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Zhaitan. Furthermore, the DSD as I believe I've said (though I may be mistaking with only having mentioned it to Thalador in game), though little evidence to support, appears to be akin to a maelstrom or whirlpool.

I do not think that Primordus' lack of influence on the surface can attest to his actions. This is making an assumption - something you call out on me - that it is his intention to avoid the surface. Eye of the North shows this is not the case - the very first thing Primordus and his forces did was set out to exterminate all surface life. To say this is a difference in behavior is to say that the DSD is also showing a difference in behavior in that its not influencing Tyria except through sending occasional aquatic refugees. But you see: one is prevented by an external force from influencing the surface of Tyria, and the other is just that far away.

@Evans: His lack of interaction with the surface is due to the stone dwarves keeping his forces at bay except those which find means through pockets. Naturally, over time the pockets increase - most of the destroyer surfacings are actually brand new (Kessex, Destroyer of Life, the spot in Lornar's Pass and obviously the spot in Timberline Falls - only Mount Maelstrom isn't relatively new).

I do suspect we'll be seeing more and more of Primordus in the coming year though. Those dwarves can't last forever and Primordus had ample magical artifacts to devour (asuran civilization and all).

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#194 royaldanney

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

What I find interesting is that the Dwarves are made of stone, maybe a very durable type of stone, but not unbreakable. What if Primordus get's it done turning the Dwarves' stone to Destroyer Mass like he did with all the other stone in the depths?

#195 draxynnic

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

I'm not assuming anything. I'm not saying that Primordus is deliberately avoiding the surface. It's that his main power base is elsewhere. The other dragons all either arose or travelled to locations compatible with their kind of disaster (although Zhaitan, it had to be said, got lucky - I have a feeling Zhaitan might have been where he was because he had a lead on the Forgotten and other elder races, but didn't succeed before needing to hibernate) - Primordus remains in the depths with the magma that fuels volcanos and Destroyer production both. He's not staying away from the surface, he's staying with something beneath the surface - the lava within Tyria's core.

Furthermore, exterminating surface life wasn't the first thing the Great Destroyer did. The first thing it did was to exterminate or drive to the surface pretty much all underground life. Hitting the surface came afterwards. No doubt Primordus would have been happy if the Great Destroyer had succeeded in scouring the surface as well as the Depths, but the Depths were the first priority, and most of the surface incursions were via gates connected to the Central Transfer Chamber - making anything too close to a gate a greater potential threat to Primordus' dominion than their physical proximity would indicate without the gates.

At the bottom line, volcanoes are certainly a form of natural disaster that is different to storms and plagues... but Primordus also shows different behaviour to Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan. I don't think anyone can say that it's beyond the realm of possibility that these observations can't be linked.
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#196 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:18 AM

Despite your claim, you are making an assumption: that he's staying with something. Well, in the end, vocabulary aside you're saying the exact same thing as "he's staying away from the surface" - to stay with something means staying away from something else, after all (at least in this case).

The assumption you're making is that this is his choice, and that he is simply unable to surface (one known reasonable example being that there's an army of tough stone dwarves between him and the surface).

Your "different behavior" you make of Primordus is something forces upon him. Little different than saying (in a hypothetical situation) that Jormag chooses to stay in the cold shiverpeaks, rather than go spreading outward when the reality would be that he's trying but can't break through enemy forces (no, Jormag isn't yet doing this - though there are Sons of Svanir who have stated they intend to engulf Lion's Arch in Jormag's corruption but fail for that very reason).

This is your assumption - that Primordus wants to remain underground - reason regardless - and not that he simply can't surface - again, reason regardless.

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#197 Evans

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:57 AM

Ah yes, indeed, the Dwarves. I forgot about them... Maybe because they seem too good of an excuse.
I mean really, sure even though their numbers were dwindling, there were still quite a lot of Dwarves that turned to stone. But I can only imagine what good they can actually do against Primordus in his own domain.

I can't really agree that it is the Dwarves that are holding him back. Sure they can be guarding some exits, but clearly Primordus can create his own pathways and if he truly wanted to, he could have easily breached the surface at any location he wanted and poured his minions out into the world. If thousands of Norn don't stand a chance against Jormag, what good will Dwarves to against Primordus. I'm sure they can hold their own against his minions (even though EotN showed us that they only seem slightly more powerful) but in the end it was us, the heroes, who took out his champion. A rather weak champion compared to others might I add.

And yet he doesn't surface, for all we know. If he is indeed storing energy from magical artifacts, where from then? You say Asura, and I can agree to some degree, but how many magical artefacts do you think they left behind and would this satisfy his hunger for long?

I wonder, how much background on the Asura do we have from when they were still underground dwellers? I wouldn't be surprised their magical "tech" aptitude finds its origin in Primordus himself. After all, they did build their central transfer chamber in front of his nose because he was a huge source of magic. What I mean is that it wouldn't be very hard for him to reclaim what was his to begin with. Though we have no real knowledge of their underground cities, it would make sense for them to build their main city near their biggest source of energy.

Well it doesn't really matter to the point I'm making. I firmly believe Primordus is not hindered by the Dwarves to the point that this is the reason he's not surfaced. Something is keeping his interest down there and the little ruptures we've seen are just small distractions. He hasn't mounted a real offence against the surface so far, whatever the reason for that may be.

I wouldn't be surprised if Primordus made his home on the ring of fire. Obviously their's the fire/magma theme, yes, but it seems too good of a plot to keep an Elder Dragon of Fire, that feeds on magic, away from the volcano in which the split Bloodstone (which we now know was a way to starve the ED's) was thrown. Even though they we're shattered after an eruption, it should still be a place of immense magical power wouldn't you agree? They perfect battery for minion making.

Edited by Evans, 05 February 2013 - 08:02 AM.


#198 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:28 AM

To quote Ogden Stonehealer during the personal storystep "Assault the Hill" (norn lvl 28 joining the vigil):

"I'd heard the dwarves were extinct. Are there many left?"
Ogden: As a race of flesh and blood, we became extinct over 200 years ago. We made a great sacrifice to defeat the destroyers, servants of the Elder Dragon Primordus.
->"I'd like to hear more about that."
Ogden: Our king protected us with a ritual. Unfortunately, it turned us to stone, immortal but not invulerable (in-game typo). It strengthened our spirits, and the few survivors fight far below the ground.

There's other instances where Ogden re-assures that the dwarves are still existing, fighting, and that he is the sole surface dwarf - who remained to "tell the tale" as he said. But the interesting notion is that the ritual did two things, by all indications from this line: Protected them from corruption and made them unaging, at the price of turning to stone and thus unable to continue "living" as normal beings. They've become the perfect weapons against Primordus - a case of stone versus fire and stone, and the former cannot be corrupted (I suspect forgotten magic had a hand in the Rite of the Great Dwarf's origin). But nonetheless, Ogden does say on numerous occasions outside Arah - of the four times we can meet him, at least three he reassures that there are still dwarves in the depths.

As for magical artifacts - the asura left in a hurry, and to quote the asura lore blog post (transcribed on wiki here - note, this holds the most info on pre-surfacing asura life that we know):

"Prior to the rise of the destroyers, the asura were the predominant race in the Depths of Tyria. They lorded their status over all others"

"According to the records of the eldest archivists of their race, there were at least six cities as large and grand as Rata Sum in the asura-dominated lands beneath the surface, though none survived into the modern age. While other races insist that the legends of such massive capitals as Quora Sum are far-fetched and exaggerated, the asura tersely reply that the other races are simply too dim to comprehend the grandeur they lost."

"Inquest founders looked upon the amount of knowledge lost when Quora Sum was wiped out by the destroyers, and judged such a signal drop to be complete anathema to their purposes."

We know the following facts about asura life underground:
1) They were the most superior race, primarily thanks to their magic.
2) They had at least six cities, these six being considered grand. These were all on par to modern GW2 Rata Sum, which thrives on magic - I mean, that city is a bloody buffet for an Elder Dragon, now imagine one Elder Dragon having free reign to six Rata Sums. I wouldn't doubt that the Central Transfer Chamber was one such city, given it being an asura gate hub (this was the only settlement to our knowledge near Primordus, since the gates were powered off of him - though to our knowledge nothing else was).
3) On top of that, At least one of these six cities was completely annihilated, meaning little if any magical artifacts would have been recovered.
4) The asura were just as egocentric and paranoid then, if not moreso, than they are now. I don't recall if it was from an interview or from Ghosts of Ascalon, but it was stated that many asura created ciphers out of this paranoia so that their inventions cannot be stolen, thus even after their death many inventions remain lost. This is why Blimm's Golem Eye, or Oola's, Calx's, and Gadd's labs in Metrica Province are never explored and artifacts recovered prior to us helping out/finding them. Now imagine this having gone on for centuries - if not longer - before Primordus' rise.
5) From an interview, we know that the asura already had magic during 1 BE, and they knew it increased and then decreased, though they didn't know why. This means based off of point 4, the asura were likely magically adept for over a thousand years.

We know there were six cities of Rata Sum level fallen to Primordus, and we have no clue how many lesser cities there were, let alone abandoned labs that Primordus can just eat the magical enchantments protecting them right off or send in potentially limitless minions to go through traps and fetch the magic for him.

So overall, I think the reason Primordus hasn't surfaced yet is twofold: 200 years isn't enough to devour all of the asuran magitech (Zhaitan was still searching the outskirts of Orr after 100 years, and the Depths of Tyria is much bigger), and he's being abated by hundreds of unaging, resilient, uncorruptable stone dwarves that are hell-bent on chasing destroyers down to extinction.

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#199 draxynnic

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM

Given that the dwarves in EOTN were unable to stand against even the Great Destroyer alone, I don't think they can really be said to be holding back the might of the full Elder Dragon, even with reinforcements as more dwarves succumbed to the ritual. The situation is better than it would be without the dwarves, no doubt, but I really doubt they're forming a line that prevents Primordus from reaching the surface if he really wanted to.

When it comes to the asura stuff - yes, it is likely that Primordus has been eating all that. However, the example of Zhaitan shows that having uneaten magic in their domain doesn't stop them from expanding their domain. I would guess that once a magic item is within their domain, the dragon feels there's no hurry and that a greater return might be obtained by defeating potential enemies and expanding their domain to encompass even more magic. It's probably no coincidence that the Risen entered Abaddon's sunken cathedral pretty much right after their failure to destroy Fort Trinity - until then they probably figured that they could investigate at their leisure, but the appearance of the Pact presented a danger that the Pact might access the cathedral first and forced them to act.

(A similar reasoning, incidentally, would explain why the Risen left it until too late to attempt to destroy the Forgotten artifacts in Orr - previously, they probably felt they had all the time in the world to find a way to unravel the Forgotten's protections, but the Pact's successful invasion of Arah and Zhaitan's fall (which the surviving Risen may or may not believe is permanent) presented the risk that those artifacts would fall (back) into enemy hands.)

However, I tire at this constant rebuttal, so I'm going to conclude with two challenges:

First, can you really say that you think it is beyond reasonable doubt that Primordus is not an incarnation of volcanoes? Because I think it's at least a valid a theory as your contention that all Elder Dragons are incarnations of different types of storms respectively.

Second, given that we've pretty much gone through the present evidence, let's apply the scientific method and make predictions. We've got a sixth dragon to go (plus any the jorun didn't know of), so let's go with our three theories and make predictions on each:

For the theory that all dragons are storms: Mordremoth and any further dragon would all be related to some kind of storm.

For the theory that dragons represent natural disasters: Mordremoth and any further dragon will represent some form of natural disaster that isn't a storm.

For the theory that the dragons don't actually embody natural disasters at all, but simply have natural proclivities that give some dragons an affinity to some natural disasters: Mordremoth will not be directly relateable to any form of natural disaster without some literally incredible logical gymnastics (given the pernicious nature of the 'dragons are gods' theory, though, I expect someone would try it nonetheless).

To be perfectly honest, from what we know of Mordremoth I'd suspect that the last is actually the most likely of the three, with a possibility of the second (the one Mordremoth-related skill we know of is earth-based, so I could see him being connected to earthquakes, but even then I'd expect him to have a stronger tie to elemental earth than to the plants we've seen in the CoE. I certainly can't see him being connected to any form of storm given that in the storm-based theory, sandstorms are already linked to Kralkatorrik).
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#200 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:41 AM

In GW1, just about every single individual allied NPC - especially prior to Beyond content - was highly overwhelmed by even a single equal leveled foe. This is because allied NPCs in GW1 had 0 to 3 skills, while foes had twice that of the level. Using what we see in GW1's allied NPC's strength is a very poor argument and meshes mechanics into lore.

And even ignoring this, keep in mind that the initially stoned dwarves was a very small amount, and not their entire race. According to Ogden, their entire race underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf within 50 years. It's basically 50-ish dwarves versus the Great Destroyer and its armies, and then an entire race (which most likely reaches well into the thousands, if not ten thousands) versus Primordus' army.

View Postdraxynnic, on 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

However, the example of Zhaitan shows that having uneaten magic in their domain doesn't stop them from expanding their domain.
You make this sound as if Primordus isn't. Do you think he obtained the entire underground of the whole world overnight or something? It took Zhaitan 100 years before a full push out when he was given an entire nation's worth of minions to make quickly. Now, consider Primordus: he's moving around, not isolated to a patch of underearth the size of Orr. He has been expanding - just outward, not upward. Because there's things blocking him going up, but not likely gown down or to every side.

As for your challenges....

View Postdraxynnic, on 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

First, can you really say that you think it is beyond reasonable doubt that Primordus is not an incarnation of volcanoes? Because I think it's at least a valid a theory as your contention that all Elder Dragons are incarnations of different types of storms respectively.
Actually, yes. Because you're making the assumption that Elder Dragons are incarnations of disasters, rather than - if anything - the pure raw force of an element (in this case, fire - be it liquid flame or plasma flame).

The storm thing is merely an observational addendum to the previous assumption, that three of four observed Elder Dragons show, and that the other two may or may not show.

So to your challenge, I pose a question: Can you really say that you think it is reasonable to presume an Elder Dragon must represent solely a single natural disaster, rather than the destructive side of its element in general?

And a second question: Can you truly argue without reasonable doubt that Primordus represents a volcano, and only a volcano, nothing else, at all, whatsoever?

Oh, and to provide absolute clarity: I never said all Elder Dragons represented storms. In fact, I never once argued that Zhaitan was a storm of sorts. I instead argued that, should they represent natural disasters specifically, Primordus isn't likely to represent an immobile one, but rather one that is mobile: an inferno, wildfire, and/or firestorm.

Note the wording of the first time I brought up the storm comparisons:

Quote

Primordus is the Elder Fire Dragon, thus if he is akin to Kralkatorrik or Jormag, he'd be best described as I believe it was said the asura describe him: an inferno. Not a stationary mountain spewing lava, but a storm of fire. In the same manner, given Zhaitan's ties to rot/decay (all undead, even recent ones, are extremely rotten), I'd say he's best compared to as a plague or swarm of disease.
No where did I state Zhaitan is a storm of swarms or whatnot. Second time I brought it up was this:

Quote

Something I notice is that all Elder Dragons, sans Primordus if you continue insisting the volcano analogy, are all compared to versions of storms (or can be, in the DSD's case) with a slight modification for Zhaitan in that he'd be a plague (decay on wind, basically), which can take the shape of a storm easily enough. Blizzard, sandstorm, maelstrom (DSD)... Actually, I think Zhaitan's compared to a swarm once (and I know there's a risen boss which has a swarm of locusts surrounding him in the charr personal story). A firestorm of sorts is far more accurate for Primordus when considering this.

This is why I say volcano doesn't fit Primordus. Rather, it doesn't fit the notion of Elder Dragon-to-natural disaster comparison. Neither would tsunami, floods, or earthquakes. All four are mere side-effects.
The notion I was bringing forward is that they're all compared to, or comparable to, a form of storm. Again, with an exception of Zhaitan since he's more of a plague, swarm and so forth and not a storm. My point was, perhaps poorly explained, that if they represent natural disasters, they represent mobile disasters.

View Postdraxynnic, on 07 February 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Second, given that we've pretty much gone through the present evidence, let's apply the scientific method and make predictions. We've got a sixth dragon to go (plus any the jorun didn't know of), so let's go with our three theories and make predictions on each:

For the theory that all dragons are storms: Mordremoth and any further dragon would all be related to some kind of storm.

For the theory that dragons represent natural disasters: Mordremoth and any further dragon will represent some form of natural disaster that isn't a storm.

For the theory that the dragons don't actually embody natural disasters at all, but simply have natural proclivities that give some dragons an affinity to some natural disasters: Mordremoth will not be directly relateable to any form of natural disaster without some literally incredible logical gymnastics (given the pernicious nature of the 'dragons are gods' theory, though, I expect someone would try it nonetheless).

To be perfectly honest, from what we know of Mordremoth I'd suspect that the last is actually the most likely of the three, with a possibility of the second (the one Mordremoth-related skill we know of is earth-based, so I could see him being connected to earthquakes, but even then I'd expect him to have a stronger tie to elemental earth than to the plants we've seen in the CoE. I certainly can't see him being connected to any form of storm given that in the storm-based theory, sandstorms are already linked to Kralkatorrik).
In short: you're in agreement with my original point and the stance I held when this debate began. Or rather, you're finding that to be most plausible.

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#201 Trei

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:28 AM

I interpreted Anet's depicting of the Elder dragons being akin to natural disasters as simply this:

Treat them as if they are forces of nature, which arguably they might well literally be - the planet's way of dealing with or cleaning up rampant unnatural magic unleashed by Abaddon long ago, or perhaps due to other causes that predate even that.

Like volcanoes or hurricanes, the Elder Dragons simply... are.
They are a natural part of this world.

They destroy not because they actively seek to maliciously destroy, no different than how a tornado wrecks through a town, or me accidentally flattening an ant mound just walking across a field.
There's is no agenda, there's nothing personal.

As such, it is not so much that they generate natural disasters, they themselves are just yet another type of natural disaster that happen to cause other  more "mundane" disasters easier for us Earthlings to relate to in our world.

Like how underwater earthquakes generate tsunamis.

Edited by Trei, 07 February 2013 - 03:38 AM.


#202 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:10 AM

The magic Abaddon "unleashed" was rather just pre-existing magic contained within the Bloodstone to keep away from the Elder Dragons. That magic existed long before 1 BE, as did the Elder Dragons.

And I disagree on the "no agenda" part - this implies that they're rather non-sentient. However, we know that they are, and we know they proactively chose their champions just as some of them give certain promises or mentality to their minions.

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#203 Craywulf

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:16 AM

I'm not sure it's fair to assume that all Elder Dragons are alike in their personality or modus operandi. Just because Zhaitan's shows "uneaten magic in their domain" doesn't mean that all ED from expand their domain. These creatures are not the same, so while they are all classified as ancient dragons, beyond that they function radically different from each other.

In regards to treating EDs as natural disasters, I always thought that was a perspective conveyed by denizens of Tyria. These are such unfathomable creatures that can't be immediately rationalized. Elder Dragons are not even mentioned in same breath as the human Gods, because they are brutal and uncontrollable force, like a natural disaster.

Oh and I agree with Konig that an Inferno is better description of Primordus, despite my argument that EDs are like natural disasters.

#204 Trei

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 07 February 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

And I disagree on the "no agenda" part - this implies that they're rather non-sentient. However, we know that they are, and we know they proactively chose their champions just as some of them give certain promises or mentality to their minions.
Ah, i didn't mean that literally.
I mean they may not have an agenda vs us the tiny races scurrying about all busylike.

Their world of sentience awareness does not exactly "include" us.

They are not doing these things they do because they are inherently evil.
We just happen to be in the way.

Like how a bear smashes through a hive to get the honeycombs.
It wasn't there to massacre bees and destroy their habitats, it just wanted the combs.

#205 draxynnic

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:54 AM

My point is the difference between saying 'this is a valid way of looking at things, although we don't have enough evidence to know for sure either way' and 'no, that's wrong'.

Regarding the dwarves and Destroyers: I'm not referring to mechanical observations here. It's a plot point between the last and second last missions in EotN that the dwarves lack the ability to either push to the Great Destroyer's lair or to hold them off indefinitely - but that a small team might be able to slip past and assassinate the Great Destroyer.
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#206 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:06 AM

That's more due to pure numbers. Which I pointed out as well. There weren't that many dwarves who underwent the rite to face the Great Destroyer - only those who went north with Jalis, and even then, Alkar and Ogden didn't at that time either, perhaps more. Plus, you have to factor in the mentality of the stone dwarves. To quote Jalis after killing the Disc of Chaos:
Jalis Ironhammer: "We have driven them back."
Ogden Stonehealer: "But at a huge cost, and the Destroyers are regrouping." Jalis Ironhammer: "It does not matter! We are stone! We shall resist all their assaults."
[...]
Jalis Ironhammer: "Come, Great Destroyer! Throw your minions away against us!"
Jalis Ironhammer: "We will hunt you all into the depths of the earth!"
Jalis Ironhammer: "Victory or death!"

In short: they were intending to sit and let the destroyers come to them, rather than push into the next chamber. And the only reason why a small team would be able to get to the Great Destroyer was because the dwarves were holding out against the onslaught of destroyers bound to return to their champion's defense as well as any that were sent by the Great Destroyer. In other words, we, the players, were able to get to the Great Destroyer because Jalis and his army was facing the army all alone (well, with three golems).

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#207 Evans

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:14 AM

You're right in saying that only a small group underwent the rite that day, but I still don't think there actually were all that many other Dwarves left. It is plainly said that their numbers were dwindling and we, the heroes, had been responsible for wiping out most of the Stone Summit Dwarves. I'd say there may have been a couple hundreds left.

I hardly see how they can stand up to Primordus. Facing their minions is one thing, a champion already proved too much of a challenge but an Elder Dragon itself? No I don't think even thousands of Dwarves have a chance at that point. I remain convinced that Primordus has chosen not to surface for another reason. At worst the Stone Dwarves are a hindrance to his minions.

Edited by Evans, 08 February 2013 - 06:15 AM.


#208 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:45 AM

Where was it ever said their numbers were dwindling? I've only seen this references in terms of post-Rite dwarves.

And I think I just proved how a champion wasn't too much - they just weren't going after the champion. They were intentionally withstanding the hordes of minions.

Either way, we know the dwarves are still around underground, and we know they're still fighting Primordus. So either Primordus knows they're there and is going "eh, whatever, let them kill my minions one after another" or he's being stopped by them. Maybe he doesn't go plowing through the dwarves himself, but this isn't saying much - I mean, Zhaitan doesn't make a personal move until we're bombarding his home with dozens of airships. Through the days/weeks we're pushing slowly from eastern Orr to western Orr, he does nothing but send more minions our way. It wouldn't be surprising - or any kind of stretch - to believe Primordus is doing the same.

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#209 Menehune

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 07 February 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

...
The notion I was bringing forward is that they're all compared to, or comparable to, a form of storm. Again, with an exception of Zhaitan since he's more of a plague, swarm and so forth and not a storm. My point was, perhaps poorly explained, that if they represent natural disasters, they represent mobile disasters.
...

I think that it could reasonably be argued that even volcanos are mobile by virtue of their lava or pyroclastic flows. Highly fluid or voluminous lava and pyroclastic flows can reach tens of miles from the stationary cones and vents. Also ejecta which can include boulders weighing tons can be thrown for miles. Also a volcano can emit an ash cloud that settles into yards thick layers covering hundred or even thousands of square miles. Thus, though the cone and vents are stationary, a volcano can spread effects over a large area through mobile elements.

To preempt the argument that a sandstorm or hurricane travels much farther than a lava flow, the point is that the disaster causing agent moves at all, not how far it moves. From the pov of a devastated town, it matters not at all whether the cause of the devastation traveled a hundred miles or a hundred yards.

#210 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:28 PM

That's a different argument than volcanos being mobile, though. In comparison, a volcano's lava is like the lightning or rain of a thunderstorm. So at this point, it'd be comparing Primordus to magma, rather than a volcano, where I'd argue that comparing him to fire (or a wildfire, inferno, firestorm, etc) is equally accurate.

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